The Energon Pub

Scaleface wrote:

Counterpunch wrote:So, it isn't a Pretender.

It's actually a pretender to what Pretenders should be?

So...it isn't a Transformer.

Just calling it like I see it.

You are not seeing it very well.

The small robot transforms from robot to vehicle, AND breaks up into weapons as an additional mode.

Also, a lot of the 1989 Pretenders had most of their body parts stick on the outside of the shells. Look at Doubleheader, who has to leave his wing on the shell to fit inside. PWTToo just went a step further and made the small robots Triple Changer Targetmasters.

Think that 3 inch robot or animal is a serious joke as it has almost no articulation.

Think PWTT, didn't go steps forward, Think PWTT went steps backward with the inner robot. As most of the pretender 1988 inner robots had much more articulation than these PWTT-BMOG 3 inch robots or animals.

Delta Magnus wrote:I don't think you could make a Transformer fit inside the figure without making the Transformer inside ridiculously tiny and simple, the shell much bigger, or the shell a lot less articulated. Honestly I think these are as good as the Pretender concept is ever gonna get- it was always one of the stupider sublines, albeit one with some pretty cool sculpts, and I'm glad that the shell designs are getting the love they deserve. The Pretender inner figures were all highly forgettable anyway.

The 1988 or 1989 Mega Pretenders managed to fit a legends scale tiny robot inside the pretender shells cavitites of Voyager scale toys of Thunderwing, Vroom and Crossblades.

Tsutsukakushi wrote:

Delta Magnus wrote:I don't think you could make a Transformer fit inside the figure without making the Transformer inside ridiculously tiny and simple, the shell much bigger, or the shell a lot less articulated. Honestly I think these are as good as the Pretender concept is ever gonna get- it was always one of the stupider sublines, albeit one with some pretty cool sculpts, and I'm glad that the shell designs are getting the love they deserve. The Pretender inner figures were all highly forgettable anyway.

The 1988 or 1989 Mega Pretenders managed to fit a legends scale tiny robot inside the pretender shells cavitites of Voyager scale toys of Thunderwing, Vroom and Crossblades.

You mean those non-articulated, hollow shells?

One thing to remember is that this is NOT a line of Pretenders, it's a line of MANY articulated 6 inch figures that includes several Pretender inspired figures. It also includes original character and figures inspired by other lines, like He-Man, Inhumanoids, Centurions, etc. Having the 6 inch figures break apart and hide little robots inside would have not worked for those other homages, and the goal seems to be cool 6 inch figures first, and then make resemble various 80s toy characters second.

This basic muscular body mold, with different weapons, armor, hands, feet and heads, is giving them Skullgrin, Bloodbath and Stranglehold from the Transformers, three snakemen from He-Man, two original characters as Kickstarter exclusives, and several other figures they have not announced yet!

Scaleface wrote:One thing to remember is that this is NOT a line of Pretenders, it's a line of MANY articulated 6 inch figures that includes several Pretender inspired figures. It also includes original character and figures inspired by other lines, like He-Man, Inhumanoids, Centurions, etc. Having the 6 inch figures break apart and hide little robots inside would have not worked for those other homages, and the goal seems to be cool 6 inch figures first, and then make resemble various 80s toy characters second.

This basic muscular body mold, with different weapons, armor, hands, feet and heads, is giving them Skullgrin, Bloodbath and Stranglehold from the Transformers, three snakemen from He-Man, two original characters as Kickstarter exclusives, and several other figures they have not announced yet!

So...not Transformers, like I said.

You know, five years ago I would have been all about this. Back then I was willing to "approximate" updates to my G1 Classics stuff.

Then third party companies were like, "Yo dawg, you want Devastator? We can do that. You want Dinobots that look like Dinobots, word up. We got you."

Point being, there is no reason to settle for "almost".

(And if the inner robots are made of that BMOG stuff...no thank you.)

Further...that is EXACTLY how third party companies speak in real life.

I know this stuff.

Counterpunch wrote:
So...not Transformers, like I said.

As much a transformer as G1 Pretender, so get over it.

If you want Hasbro's take on updated Skullgrin, you have this, who is not a Pretender:

What I dont get is how you build a dream team of designers and come up with this ? Did they really need ex-TF franchise employees to design these ? Any random Chinese designer with no knowledge of "transformation" could have designed these at half the salary their dream team is no doubt being paid to defect from Hasbro. Just the name alone "Play with this too" sounds like a taunt as if they are telling hasbro to suck it. With that being said I was expecting something a lot bolder and TF IP laden than what is being proposed here. The whole concept is underwhelming. Why cant they just design actual transformers instead ? These remind me of 1980's Stariors which was a concept that failed back then and will fail now. All this company has shown off for months is computer rendered artwork and now they have a sword. It wouldnt be too late for them to scrap these designs and make the dream team start working on some real transformers that actually transform. And honesty im sick of seeing kickstarters. It just shows the designers have no faith in their product being a success. If they did, they would take out a loan from a bank to produce the first run instead of dumping the responsibility on the fandom to make it happen. This is just my honest opinion here. If there are so many fans who want these things so badly, where are they ? They dont seem to be posting here offering much support.

I notice that most of the Hasbro people here are artists, not mechanical designers. So they are making beautiful designs for sculpts on action figures, some of which are TF inspired. They are not trying to reinvent Transformers.

aren't they called Hero Mashers? (as in mash-up? or mash potato? Everybody knows Badger loves mash potato)

Scaleface wrote:I notice that most of the Hasbro people here are artists, not mechanical designers. So they are making beautiful designs for sculpts on action figures, some of which are TF inspired. They are not trying to reinvent Transformers.

That is true. But they carry the baggage of being assoiciated with the franchise that we primarily collect. That comes with certain expectations if they wish to market their product to the transformers audience. They could have done zombie figures and promoted them on walking dead fan forums. They could have done superhero inspired figures and marketed them on comic book forums. But they chose to stay in their comfort zone and go with transformers inspired figures and market them to the TF fandom. I cant speak for everyone, but the consensus on this thread seems to be that the concept just isnt transformers enough to be a success with this particular fanbase.

Let's not kid ourselves though, pretty much nothing is Transformers enough for the Transformers fandom. There's a reason there's so many pages on TFWiki making fun of the fandom and its impossibility to satisfy (see: Trukk not Munky, Ruined FOREVER, GEEWUN etc...). I agree it was a bad move to aim towards the Transformers fandom- because regardless of how amazing their work is, people will whine and complain and moan because it doesn't fit their personal view of what Transformers should be. It doesn't help that the fandom has a chronic allergy to anything even remotely original.

Delta Magnus wrote:Let's not kid ourselves though, pretty much nothing is Transformers enough for the Transformers fandom. There's a reason there's so many pages on TFWiki making fun of the fandom and its impossibility to satisfy (see: Trukk not Munky, Ruined FOREVER, GEEWUN etc...). I agree it was a bad move to aim towards the Transformers fandom- because regardless of how amazing their work is, people will whine and complain and moan because it doesn't fit their personal view of what Transformers should be. It doesn't help that the fandom has a chronic allergy to anything even remotely original.

So are you saying feral rex wasnt transformers enough for the transformers fandom ? Was quantron not transformers enough for the transformers fandom ? How about Hexatron ? Delicate Warrior ? Columpio and Cubrar? Smart Robin and Quadruple U ? Warbot Assaulter ? The list of 3rd party figures well revered by the transformers fandom goes on and on....

And is it really "whining and complaining" when a crowd of people that usually dont agree on anything all seem to agree on these figures ? Nobodys whining and complaining here. Were just being honest. Were basically saying play with this too brought a knife to a gunfight.

Delta Magnus wrote:Let's not kid ourselves though, pretty much nothing is Transformers enough for the Transformers fandom. There's a reason there's so many pages on TFWiki making fun of the fandom and its impossibility to satisfy (see: Trukk not Munky, Ruined FOREVER, GEEWUN etc...). I agree it was a bad move to aim towards the Transformers fandom- because regardless of how amazing their work is, people will whine and complain and moan because it doesn't fit their personal view of what Transformers should be. It doesn't help that the fandom has a chronic allergy to anything even remotely original.

I don't think I was unreasonable.

It's gotten to the point that we can't be critical of anything without someone shouting "ruined forever" and "geewun" before the thought is even considered and that's total bullshit.

"Here's 3rd party Pretenders!"

::point out that they really aren't Pretenders in the G1 style they are emulating::

"You don't like anything original. Not everything has to be geewun!"

::points out that these are supposed to be G1::

"YOU'RE WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE HOBBY!!!"

:: ::

I am excited about all the Pretender inspired figures.

Sorry, but I do not accept that these figures are bringing a knife to a gun fight. They are certainly unconventional Transformers for a CHUG collection, and NOT for every fanboy out there, but they are excellent toys if that's what you want in your collection.

I plan on getting as many as I can afford, possibly more.

As for where I will display them, I'm right now starting a glass shelf which is a modern take on Masterforce. It will have Toyworld Grant, Botcon Metalhawk and Overlord, movie Getaway with the Mastershooter partner, Evasion Mode AOE Optimus Prime with the God Ginrai upgrades and Mastershooter gun, and Play With This Too's versions of Dauros, Blood, Phoenix, Diver and Lander!

Yeah, the shelf will have vastly different takes on characters, but the theme will be Masterforce updates.

I just feel that the concept didnt live up to what people expected from the "dream team". If random Chinese designers put this line out it might have been better received by the fans. The hype associated with those names together as a team might lead some fans to believe they were out to beat hasbro at their own game, but clearly that wasnt the case. I wanted them to try to top Hasbro. I thought that was the whole point of assembling a dream team in the first place. If you look at the first pages of this thread, I was very supportive. But that was when I thought we were getting transforming figures with outer shells. To be honest, I think they should stop thinking so far down the line with all these special repaints, snake men, kickstarters, etc. They should focus all their effort and income into putting out Skullgrin in plastic form and see how it sells. We dont need a new character idea every week, get to work on the first figure already. If Skullgrin does well, then they can break out all the concept artwork. If Skullgrin flops, they can always move on to transforming figures and eventually they will find that one figure that defines their legacy. Not everyone hits a home run their first time at bat. Take unique toys for example. Their Predaking failed. The sharkies did ok. But Mania King defined them. Then they brought us soundmixer and salmore which were great figures. With all that being said, does play with this too plan to work on bigger and better projects over the years ? Or was the dream team just recruited for this pretender project as a one time collaboration? Kickstarters arent the usual breakout method for companys that are in it for the long haul...

I'm quite happy to see them, and there is some crossover to other franchises, we've seen Centurions types, and there's been talk of a Man At Arms, and I for one thought the snake men type dudes they released had a feel of the Not-Serpentor failed first attempt monster from Arise Serpentor, Arise! as well as thinking that Skullgrin's mould might make a nice base for a Fatal Fluffy. There's a lot of spots they might be able to hit, and if they get these things marketed to the right people they could make enough of an impact across multiple fandoms. I'm not seeing much potential for the line to incorporate Visionaries though, sadly. Unless maybe they make one of them the destruction hologram from Whatsisname's staff.

Rated X wrote: They should focus all their effort and income into putting out Skullgrin in plastic form and see how it sells. We dont need a new character idea every week, get to work on the first figure already. If Skullgrin does well, then they can break out all the concept artwork.

That's the traditional way of third party companies making figures. This company is trying something different, making a whole line of figures at once. It will succeed or flop for sure, but I don't think you give it enough credit. I fully expect enough people to fund several figures in the Kickstarter.

Rated X wrote: Take unique toys for example. Their Predaking failed. The sharkies did ok. But Mania King defined them. Then they brought us soundmixer and salmore which were great figures.

Unique Toys Soundmixer, Sharkies, Salmoore and Maniaking were all designed by DX9 Toys, but distributed by Unique Toys. Eventually DX9 made enough money to start their own brand.

Rated X wrote:With all that being said, does play with this too plan to work on bigger and better projects over the years ? Or was the dream team just recruited for this pretender project as a one time collaboration? Kickstarters arent the usual breakout method for companys that are in it for the long haul...

Do you actually know anything about Kickstarter made action figures? Virtruvian HACKS, Amazing Heroes, Skeleton Warriors, Gothitroplois Raven, Legends of Cthulhu to name a few... there are lots of successful and lasting Kickstarter action figures.

To answer your question, in his latest interview, Rik said he's already negotiating to make licensed figures for some properties after the Kickstarter, so yes, they have plans for the future.

craggy wrote: I'm not seeing much potential for the line to incorporate Visionaries though, sadly. Unless maybe they make one of them the destruction hologram from Whatsisname's staff.

Well, you couldn't incorporate one of these figures into the Visionaries line, but I had thought there is potential for one recolor. If they made Groundpounder, the Autobot with a lion themed armor, they could recolor it into a Leoric homage. Instead of a hologram, just have the armor shaped like a lion head works for me. Just change the head and helmet, and give him a staff.

Scaleface wrote:

Rated X wrote: They should focus all their effort and income into putting out Skullgrin in plastic form and see how it sells. We dont need a new character idea every week, get to work on the first figure already. If Skullgrin does well, then they can break out all the concept artwork.

That's the traditional way of third party companies making figures. This company is trying something different, making a whole line of figures at once. It will succeed or flop for sure, but I don't think you give it enough credit. I fully expect enough people to fund several figures in the Kickstarter.

Rated X wrote: Take unique toys for example. Their Predaking failed. The sharkies did ok. But Mania King defined them. Then they brought us soundmixer and salmore which were great figures.

Unique Toys Soundmixer, Sharkies, Salmoore and Maniaking were all designed by DX9 Toys, but distributed by Unique Toys. Eventually DX9 made enough money to start their own brand.

Rated X wrote:With all that being said, does play with this too plan to work on bigger and better projects over the years ? Or was the dream team just recruited for this pretender project as a one time collaboration? Kickstarters arent the usual breakout method for companys that are in it for the long haul...

Do you actually know anything about Kickstarter made action figures? Virtruvian HACKS, Amazing Heroes, Skeleton Warriors, Gothitroplois Raven, Legends of Cthulhu to name a few... there are lots of successful and lasting Kickstarter action figures.

To answer your question, in his latest interview, Rik said he's already negotiating to make licensed figures for some properties after the Kickstarter, so yes, they have plans for the future.

Well you got me on the unique toys trivia. I had no idea that DX9 used to work with them. I give play with this too credit for being so bold to go foward into uncharted territory. But like many traditional fans, im not really digging the concept. Comparing them to hero mashers didnt help them much either. But Tsu was right about them basically being the same concept. The only difference is the parts forming robots which doesnt seem to be the main focus of this line. It seems the robots are the afterthought and the main focus is on the pretender shells. When hasbro did bludgon and skullgrin, it was the opposite. That sits better with fans of transformers. I dont know much about the other lines you mentioned since im not really into the comic book or superhero universes. But as pointed out in that other robo erector project, kickstarters havent done well with the transformers fandom. Maybe kickstarters success with other lines comes due to the fact that fans are more trusting to invest in non transformable figures. The engineering of moving, transforming parts makes fans a bit more skeptical. They would rather get a thumbs up first before investing up front. The way I see kickstarter may be one sided, but its the truth. With kickstarter the designer is basically asking the fans to fund the project. He doesnt want the accountability of taking a financial loss if the product flops. It makes sense business wise. But it kind of puts the fans in a position that I dont agree with them being put in. Im not a fan of blind faith. The only successful kickstarter project I know of related to transformers is that 3rd party book you talked about in your retro robot podcast. (I love your podcasts btw) Now that the people are finally getting that book, it will be so outdated its almost pointless. Does it even have feral rex in it ? Or is it like 2 years behind whats currently out ? If its the same guy Im thinking about, I tried to tell him on these threads that a book was silly. I told him if he was really passionite about archiving 3rd party transformers, he should go for a website similar to TF wiki that can be updated frequently. But the guy was very hard headed and gad his hearts set on a physical book. Even though he made it happen, how big a success really was it ? It was a success only because he didnt lose any money out his pocket. From a "must have" standpoint, it wasnt a huge success. Its not like bbts came to him and said "we like the idea, we want to buy 500 copies".

Sure fans wanted Pretenders updates toys but I don't think fans wanted it done this PWTT way. Think this is the worse way possible to create them.

Examples of good pretenders updates toys are MMC'S Felis sabre, HasTak's evolved Voyager Bludgeon, Evolved Deluxe Thunderwing. Those Universe Animal Minicons that had some Animal Pretenders characters toys.

Think if MMC or another 3rd party creates a leader scale beast pretender shell for MMC Felisabre that is fully articulated. This is more in line what fans want. Maybe if the pretender beast shell can transform into a robot with the inner figure inside it, this would be icing on the cake.

Other ideas of great Pretender updates toys. Is to use some of HasTak's minicons and legends scale toys as the inner robots. With 3rd parties just creating Mega Pretender shells that can transform like 1988 Thunderwing, Vroom and Crossblades. With the HasTak legends or minicon being put in a cavity inside the 3rd party pretender toy.

You know what? I think the kickstarter will do wonders to prove just what the fans do and do not want...

Tsutsukakushi wrote:Sure fans wanted Pretenders updates toys but I don't think fans wanted it done this PWTT way. Think this is the worse way possible to create them.

Examples of good pretenders updates toys are MMC'S Felis sabre, HasTak's evolved Voyager Bludgeon, Evolved Deluxe Thunderwing. Those Universe Animal Minicons that had some Animal Pretenders characters toys.

Do not "pretend" to speak for all fans.

Bludgeon, Thunderwing and Felisaber are not "evolved Pretenders" they are "removed Pretenders". I would say that simply making the inner robots into backpack is way closer to the Pretender concept than getting rid of the Pretender option.

Look at things like GDO Megatron, who is a recolor and new head on Bludgeon. Do people say it's "Pretender Megatron"? NO. It's just Megatron as a Transformer. ROTF Bludgeon is not a pretender.

Speaking of which though, I wonder if PWTT do make a Bludgeon, if we could get a green version with a Megatron head, or a Overlord, or a Banzaitron who were true Pretenders from this.

Scaleface wrote:Do not "pretend" to speak for all fans.

(I love me a good pun!!)