The Energon Pub

AbsumZer0 wrote:

Tramp wrote:

Tiemar wrote:I say they stuff the windshield/seats/whatever into their own little personal pocket dimentions and leave it at that.

Actually, according to the designers and animators, the robots' bodies are made completely out of the vehicles various parts. That is why they are made of so many pieces.

So... where are the windshields and seats?

Good question. The windshields are probably incorporated into their backs or other parts of their torsos, and the seats are probalby broken down into smaller pieces which are then distributed throughout their bodies. They don't just disappear into some pocket dimension.

AbsumZer0 wrote:

Justicity wrote:You seen the BB figures??? The automorph in the legs demonstrates that there is enough material there for the legs & feet to form from without mass-shift. As for the midsection/passenger space. Agreed. However if the front of the car, engine etc, minus the body shell moved down into the midsection then there is enough material. As long as BB (& all other TFs) are kinda hollow then its really not mass-creating, more literal mass-SHIFTING.

What? The legs on the toys are a great deal less bulky than those of the cgi models and the toys have no driver/passenger/trunk space. The legs and feet of the toys are actually made from what would be the trunk space and the backseat passernger space of a real car, so I'm not seeing what that's supposed to prove. Perhaps more importantly the scale of the toys to their film counterpart changes completely when you transform it, with the Bumblebee in the film being a great deal larger compared to his vehicle mode than the toy is. The one in the movie GROWS to an extent that can't be explained away by decompression.

What does explain it is the cgi model being scaled-up for dramatic purposes, or to look closer in size to characters like Starscream whose vehicle modes actually do have enough mass to make them as large as they appear without fudging it.

EDIT: To be more accurate, Bumblebee grows in terms of width and depth, not height, assuming that the official height of 15' is kept (although it often appears to be disregarded). I'm aware that a '77 Camaro is about 16' in length.

Now you know why Mikaela had to sit on the lap of Sam in the front passenger seat.

The seatbelt thing is just an excuse.

Nope, he just folded out to an unrealistic degree.

I don't know if you've noticed, but the Autobots are probably worse for exposed internals. To try and keep on an equal height footing with the Decepticons, they fold out bits.

This is why all the movie autobots look so chunky - they're not as tall as their movie counterparts. Compare the size of '08 Bumblebee's chest to the movie model, it's a good bit smaller. This isn't because the transformations are just more "complex", at least SOME would have gotten the right proportions if this is true, it's because they stretch.

Tramp wrote:The "no Mass shfiting" rule was only for the first movie. That was why Soundwave is not in the first movie. They're saving them for the second when there will be the time to cover that ability as a proper plot point. And even though we see it with the Allspark, that is supposed to be an artifiact with "god-like powers" anyway. It can break any rule.

Moonbase, They never referred to Soundwave's ability as Mass shifting. The DW comic book refers to it as Mass Conversion, and it is described in TF: More than Meets the Eye #8 as :

Mass conversion is the more complex of the two metnods, and it represents a significant genetic difference in those who posess it. In their standard size (for example, robot mode), the basic atomic components of Cybertronianswho utilize mass conversion are at rest. However, when called upon to convert into a larger or smaller mode, the very sub-atomic particles that compose them restructure themselves even as the being's body changes its physical configuration. Much like a Cybertronian's physical form can change its shape and properties, so can the atomic building blocks of those who posess mass conversion abilities. These particles are hardwired to reconfigure themselves according to a predetermined schematic, splitting up or combining to alter their own mass and density to match the needs of the mode in question.

Hmmm....I guess that is a good way to explain away what the cartoon decided to make possible, i.e. Megatron. In Escalation they referred to it as mass displacement, and behaved as if it is rare and takes a lot of energy to achieve. At least they aren't pretending like it's magic.

Except for Astrotrain. With the Seekers, you don't need literal mass-shifting, you don't need to get rid of any weight as such, just compress what you already have and maybe use a slightly smaller jet mode.

But Space Shuttles are enormous. The idea of one of those contracting into Astrotrain's bot mode is absurd. They're over 150 feet long, as opposed to a Jet's 35-60 meter length(58 or so for the Seekers, but there are some tiny jets too), and weights 4 and a half million pounds. I'm guessing a Cybertronian Space shuttle would be a lot lighter, but still...

Spark Light wrote:But Space Shuttles are enormous. The idea of one of those contracting into Astrotrain's bot mode is absurd. They're over 150 feet long, as opposed to a Jet's 35-60 meter length(58 or so for the Seekers, but there are some tiny jets too), and weights 4 and a half million pounds. I'm guessing a Cybertronian Space shuttle would be a lot lighter, but still...

Dude, you're mixing up your metric and standard measurements...

1m is approx. 39 inches. So 58m = 58x39/36 = 62.8333 yards, or 188.5 feet. That's actually longer than your proposed length of a shuttle, and not exactly accurate.

Sorry, I meant ft. not meter.

Fair point though whther the maths are sound or not.
It always bugged me that the G1 stuff never really payed attention to any detail.
Look at the first movie. The Constructicons formed Devastator INSIDE Astrotrain but in Bot mode hes roughly the same size as Screamer.

I think that may have been what they meant by no mass shifting. Ie the huge becoming the tiny(or even huger)

And i did read when they were working out the designs they did actually start with whatever vehicle they needed (Camaro in BB's case) stripped it down and then built a robot using the parts so that Robot statue is built entirely from 1 Camaro and leaving no parts out. They may not have done that with every design but i know they did it with a few.
There are alot of internals on show but without counting the 'dead space' such as trunk and passenger compartment there is still alot to work with. Engines are not small and the american style of Car building leads to huge front ends and BIG engines. Then of course there is the undercarriage and the chassis itself. The electrics and mechanics of the steering, Axles, drive shafts etc. Theres more than enough to work with.

Some G1 caracter don,t mass shift much, and there are those where its really...flagrant. Meg and Soundwave simply downsize themselves. Optimus mass does not really change, except for its trailer.

Nico wrote:Some G1 caracter don,t mass shift much, and there are those where its really...flagrant. Meg and Soundwave simply downsize themselves. Optimus mass does not really change, except for its trailer.

Which simply vanishes unless he happens to need it. Ive only seen one G1 ep where he actually used it (the one where Bumblebee gets stuck in the mountain and Roller gets blown up. And prime had to change back to truck mode just to summon it. Then to make a Nuisance of itself it shows up when their taking Prime back to base so Huffer pulls it.
Its another of those Writer loopholes when u know they just dont care for details cos 'kids is too dumb to notice' etc.

I always figured the trailer was there but non-functional unless it gets power from Prime. Not sure how Roller would function, though...forget kids, 29-year-olds are too dumb to notice.

There was an episode where Prime is under Megatron's evil influence because of personality disrupters or something. He's destroying a bunch of jets and the autobots are trying to stop him. So he trailer opens up and he divides himself into his three components. They have to target all three with the "good personality" converters. Or something.

Nico wrote:Some G1 caracter don,t mass shift much, and there are those where its really...flagrant. Meg and Soundwave simply downsize themselves. Optimus mass does not really change, except for its trailer.

Most characters don't have mass conversion, nor any abbility ofr size change. Others have an ability called Parts Compression, which is good for relatively minor changes in size at the expense of weaker armor and such in their expanded mode. It isn't very good for really extreme size changes like Soundwave's. G1 Astrotrain probably uses Parts compression, not mass conversion.

Tramp wrote:

Nico wrote:Some G1 caracter don,t mass shift much, and there are those where its really...flagrant. Meg and Soundwave simply downsize themselves. Optimus mass does not really change, except for its trailer.

Most characters don't have mass conversion, nor any abbility ofr size change. Others have an ability called Parts Compression, which is good for relatively minor changes in size at the expense of weaker armor and such in their expanded mode. It isn't very good for really extreme size changes like Soundwave's. G1 Astrotrain probably uses Parts compression, not mass conversion.

Ill say it again for Astrotrain....
Robot Mode - About same size as Starscream
Alt Mode - Has Space for DEVASTATOR inside. Thats more than Parts compression. Hes basically the Size of the Ark (if you look at interior shots)

Fananga wrote:

Tramp wrote:

Nico wrote:Some G1 caracter don,t mass shift much, and there are those where its really...flagrant. Meg and Soundwave simply downsize themselves. Optimus mass does not really change, except for its trailer.

Most characters don't have mass conversion, nor any abbility ofr size change. Others have an ability called Parts Compression, which is good for relatively minor changes in size at the expense of weaker armor and such in their expanded mode. It isn't very good for really extreme size changes like Soundwave's. G1 Astrotrain probably uses Parts compression, not mass conversion.

Ill say it again for Astrotrain....
Robot Mode - About same size as Starscream
Alt Mode - Has Space for DEVASTATOR inside. Thats more than Parts compression. Hes basically the Size of the Ark (if you look at interior shots)

Just like in MIB and Doc who, bigger onthe inside then on the outside! it's as simple as that!

Dead Metal wrote:

Fananga wrote:

Tramp wrote:

Nico wrote:Some G1 caracter don,t mass shift much, and there are those where its really...flagrant. Meg and Soundwave simply downsize themselves. Optimus mass does not really change, except for its trailer.

Most characters don't have mass conversion, nor any abbility ofr size change. Others have an ability called Parts Compression, which is good for relatively minor changes in size at the expense of weaker armor and such in their expanded mode. It isn't very good for really extreme size changes like Soundwave's. G1 Astrotrain probably uses Parts compression, not mass conversion.

Ill say it again for Astrotrain....
Robot Mode - About same size as Starscream
Alt Mode - Has Space for DEVASTATOR inside. Thats more than Parts compression. Hes basically the Size of the Ark (if you look at interior shots)

Just like in MIB and Doc who, bigger onthe inside then on the outside! it's as simple as that!

That's pretty dead on Dead Metal.

Fananga. IF you looked at when Astrotrain transformed and the others loaded onto him, he didn't grow to ungodly proportions nor when he transformed to shuttle mode. Devastator should neve be able to fit inside Astrotrain's Shuttle cargo bay. That was one of the biggest goofs in the original movie. You could probably explain it though as Devastator not reaching full size too. Secondly, in the comics, we never see Astrotrian reach monsterous size either.

Tramp wrote:

Dead Metal wrote:

Fananga wrote:

Tramp wrote:

Nico wrote:Some G1 caracter don,t mass shift much, and there are those where its really...flagrant. Meg and Soundwave simply downsize themselves. Optimus mass does not really change, except for its trailer.

Most characters don't have mass conversion, nor any abbility ofr size change. Others have an ability called Parts Compression, which is good for relatively minor changes in size at the expense of weaker armor and such in their expanded mode. It isn't very good for really extreme size changes like Soundwave's. G1 Astrotrain probably uses Parts compression, not mass conversion.

Ill say it again for Astrotrain....
Robot Mode - About same size as Starscream
Alt Mode - Has Space for DEVASTATOR inside. Thats more than Parts compression. Hes basically the Size of the Ark (if you look at interior shots)

Just like in MIB and Doc who, bigger onthe inside then on the outside! it's as simple as that!

That's pretty dead on Dead Metal.

Fananga. IF you looked at when Astrotrain transformed and the others loaded onto him, he didn't grow to ungodly proportions nor when he transformed to shuttle mode. Devastator should neve be able to fit inside Astrotrain's Shuttle cargo bay. That was one of the biggest goofs in the original movie. You could probably explain it though as Devastator not reaching full size too. Secondly, in the comics, we never see Astrotrian reach monsterous size either.

Lets just chalk it all up to poor animation and conception, lack of logical thought and inconsistant writing. Things that have finally been fixed with the new movie. The mass shifting thing always bothered me, especially when i found out how they are "supposed" to pull such a thing off.

Being an advanced alien robot is one thing, but being so advanced that you can re-shape and re-construct your own atoms to become a larger or smaller size is just a bit too much of a stretch of the imagination for me.

There is nothing inherently wrong with mass conversion, as long as it is done consistantly with the same character. Soundwave going from tape deck to full size robot is a good example of proper useage. What isn't acceptible is inconsistant useage that screws up scale, with characters who aren't supposed to be able to do it in the first place (Astrotrain in the 86 movie). That isn't mass conversion, it's just a screw-up.

Nico wrote:Some G1 caracter don,t mass shift much, and there are those where its really...flagrant. Meg and Soundwave simply downsize themselves. Optimus mass does not really change, except for its trailer.

Everyone wonders why Prime's trailer disappears when he transforms.

Few notice this, but the trailer didn't disappear. It just mass-shift into a wallet size trailer, and jump right into Prime's back pocket. Left cheek back pocket.

Sonray wrote:

Tramp wrote:

Dead Metal wrote:

Fananga wrote:

Tramp wrote:

Nico wrote:Some G1 caracter don,t mass shift much, and there are those where its really...flagrant. Meg and Soundwave simply downsize themselves. Optimus mass does not really change, except for its trailer.

Most characters don't have mass conversion, nor any abbility ofr size change. Others have an ability called Parts Compression, which is good for relatively minor changes in size at the expense of weaker armor and such in their expanded mode. It isn't very good for really extreme size changes like Soundwave's. G1 Astrotrain probably uses Parts compression, not mass conversion.

Ill say it again for Astrotrain....
Robot Mode - About same size as Starscream
Alt Mode - Has Space for DEVASTATOR inside. Thats more than Parts compression. Hes basically the Size of the Ark (if you look at interior shots)

Just like in MIB and Doc who, bigger onthe inside then on the outside! it's as simple as that!

That's pretty dead on Dead Metal.

Fananga. IF you looked at when Astrotrain transformed and the others loaded onto him, he didn't grow to ungodly proportions nor when he transformed to shuttle mode. Devastator should neve be able to fit inside Astrotrain's Shuttle cargo bay. That was one of the biggest goofs in the original movie. You could probably explain it though as Devastator not reaching full size too. Secondly, in the comics, we never see Astrotrian reach monsterous size either.

Lets just chalk it all up to poor animation and conception, lack of logical thought and inconsistant writing. Things that have finally been fixed with the new movie. The mass shifting thing always bothered me, especially when i found out how they are "supposed" to pull such a thing off.

Being an advanced alien robot is one thing, but being so advanced that you can re-shape and re-construct your own atoms to become a larger or smaller size is just a bit too much of a stretch of the imagination for me.

Size-shifting isn't so advanced anymore. It isn't even alien tehcnology.

It was first invented in "Honey, I shrunk the kids".

Auto Bot wrote:
Size-shifting isn't so advanced anymore. It isn't even alien tehcnology.

It was first invented in "Honey, I shrunk the kids".

They've use extreme size changes long before Honey I shrunk the Kids. It's been used in the fifties in more Sci fi movies than I can name, including Colossus, as well as multiple fantasy movies. Anyone remember Sinbad and the Eye of the Tiger? The witch Zenobia used a potion to not only transform, but also change her size.

Nico wrote:Some people here claimed Bumblebee Mass-Shifted. Nope, i found a video where he transform. We clearly see that his big size is jsut an optical illusion. He HIS the size of a Camaro.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMXkq2533OI
Look at the end of the clip where he transform.

Frenzy's head clearly mass-shifted into Mikeala's cell phone and the AllSpark most definitely mass-shifted!

Creature SH wrote:At this point, it should be fairly obvious that "No mass-shifting" was just empty phrase to shut fans up about design changes.

I agree

Seibertron wrote:

Nico wrote:Some people here claimed Bumblebee Mass-Shifted. Nope, i found a video where he transform. We clearly see that his big size is jsut an optical illusion. He HIS the size of a Camaro.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMXkq2533OI
Look at the end of the clip where he transform.

Frenzy's head clearly mass-shifted into Mikeala's cell phone and the AllSpark most definitely mass-shifted!

yes the allspark did mass-shift but it can get away with it because it has god like powers

Tramp wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:
Size-shifting isn't so advanced anymore. It isn't even alien tehcnology.

It was first invented in "Honey, I shrunk the kids".

They've use extreme size changes long before Honey I shrunk the Kids. It's been used in the fifties in more Sci fi movies than I can name, including Colossus, as well as multiple fantasy movies. Anyone remember Sinbad and the Eye of the Tiger? The witch Zenobia used a potion to not only transform, but also change her size.

That did it.

Size-shifting is a confirmed Earth technology. Possibly copied by the Cybertronians, from their addiction to internet.