The Energon Pub

AxiomScion wrote:slapping pink on the small curvy Autobot along with feminine stereo types for personality seems like a disservice to women in general.

I don't think that Arcee is a stereotypical disservice.
So she's pink. Big deal.
Besides, she's got "maculine" (as some might say) traits to her as well. She's a soldier, a motocyle, a robot. She's tough and fights for good. It sounds amirable to me.

It's not like she's wearing a sheet metal skirt and has steel wool pom-poms strapped to her hands.

I wasn't properly quoted in Sky Glory of Iacon's post.
Haha, I'm just playing. It's not that big of a deal....

just don't let it happen again. grrrr.

AxiomScion wrote:I'm not opposed to female TF characters, but I think the writers would need to be smart about how they want to introduce the concept. Seeing as the all important allspark gives/creates new TF life and was lost... I'm thinking the fem looking TFs aren't for reproduction. Until the writers decisively tackle what separates the 'two genders' in the movie, i see them at best willing to draw comparisons to humanoid genders but not clearly stating TFs are comprised of two genders.

Agreed, I could see something like this happening.

AxiomScion wrote:I'ld like to see a well developed character. If they can do that with a fem TF great, but i don't want the movie to suffer over them trying to make a fem TF work in the Bay verse. I think this was why even current comics are being careful around the subject. see spotlight Arcee

The problem with the comics is that the writers are stuck with what has been done in previous series. Personally, I don't think anyone has seriously tackled this issue before and that is why there are conflicts going on now in places beyond this forum thread.

AxiomScion wrote:So i'ld ask what would be a bigger disservice to the fans? Introducing a stereotyped fem TF as Arcee has so far been portrayed in G1 toon lore and addressing her fem features in movie, or introducing an interesting character who happens to have fem features and voice but not addressing those gender identifications in the movie do to time?

I would just like to see all new Trans characters to HAVE interesting personalities and characteristics regardless of "gender identities".

AxiomScion wrote:I'ld like to think it's not the gender that would make Arcee interesting much like i hope when they do a triplechanger there is a personality behind the character.

I'll agree with that though I wouldn't mind someone finally tackling this issue. Still, I do think that Arcee's character would need some tweaking. That or just completely redone. Give the Arcee character a chance to redeem herself in the new movie with a new background story and everything. Actually, I would like to see that character was given to ALL incoming TF characters.

AxiomScion wrote:I'ld like to see a well developed character. If they can do that with a fem TF great, but i don't want the movie to suffer over them trying to make a fem TF work in the Bay verse. I think this was why even current comics are being careful around the subject. see spotlight Arcee

The problem with the comics is that the writers are stuck with what has been done in previous series. Personally, I don't think anyone has seriously tackled this issue before and that is why there are conflicts going on now in places beyond this forum thread.

AxiomScion wrote:So i'ld ask what would be a bigger disservice to the fans? Introducing a stereotyped fem TF as Arcee has so far been portrayed in G1 toon lore and addressing her fem features in movie, or introducing an interesting character who happens to have fem features and voice but not addressing those gender identifications in the movie do to time?

I would just like to see all new Trans characters to HAVE interesting personalities and characteristics regardless of "gender identities".

AxiomScion wrote:Mattamus Prime had an excellent question for the pro Acree members of this forum. Any ideas on how female TFs would work in the Movie?

saying they serve some other purpose is one thing; stating that purpose is another. What would you want Bay's reasoning to be in lue of reproduction?

Haha. I've already stated how I would like it to be said (in a disorganized fashion) in my previous looooong ass posts. The short version: They are non biological beings and that means that there is no robot reproduction and that we determine that they are "male" and "female" based on our human understanding of gender labeling.

My problem is that I can't think of a good/creative way to explain how a TF comes into being.... and don't give me the "Wheeljack created the dinobots" nonsense. Far as I'm concerned, in the G1 toon they are nothing but glorified battle droids.

AxiomScion wrote::? If none of the fans can explain it, using gender, then how do we expect the screenwriter to?

Oh, I think if a clever person wanted to take the time to seriously tackle this issue they could find some way to explain it. It all depends on how in-depth you wanted to be. Earlier in the thread a user Tazirai found a way to do it in script form w/o getting to complex. I shall repost it here:

Code: Select all

 Scene Description:
The comet landed in the same location as many others.
Bumble Bee and Ultramagnus, rolled to the spot and transformed  to welcome the new arrival. Along with Mikaela and Sam. Close but not that close to a highway. New arrivals could pick from an array of vehicles.

Bumble Bee : Earth year 2009 Honda Accord, Nice mode.
Ultra Magnus: Welcome to the Earth, I am Ultramagnus You are?
Mikaela: Lovin' that pearl white. (Smirking slightly)
Sam: It is pretty nice lookin.
Siren : I am Siren and thank you.
Mikaela: (In shock) WHOA! WHOA! You sound like a girl. Didn't know you guys had chick bots.
Mikaela: Wait, why DO you guys have chick bots?
--Insert lame michael bay style joke.

Siren: On cybertron I was communications and first contact specialist. I chose this form to better communicate, with Earth natives. As females of your species seem open to communicate more than the males.

Mikaela: (Looks at Sam and crosses her arms)
Sam: What?
Ultra Magnus: Come Siren we have need of your unique talents. Prime will want to meet you.
Siren: THE Optimus Prime? Oh I'd be honored.

All Transform.... Mikalea Rides in Siren. Looks dissaprovingly at Sam.
Sam: What? What did I do?

Personally I think it is a short, simple, and clever way approach such an issue. It doesn't explain how they are created, but it can work with the issue at hand.

Sky Glory of Iacon wrote:You haven't seen what Japan has been inventing yet have ya?

Annette

Dude, I am a fan of anime... but even I don't want to know. Ever. Stay away Japan. Ahhh![b]Mattamus Prime had an excellent question for the pro Acree members of this forum. Any ideas on how female TFs would work in the Movie?

darkqueen01 wrote:Man, gone for a day and two more pages pop up. *Le sigh*

Gojira Prime: I appreciate and accept the apology. (And I also saw it posted on that other thread, so I did get your message.) How could I not accept an apology in the form of Calvin and Hobbes? Incidentally, I apologize to anyone who thought I was being pushy or offended by my loooooooong posts. I did not mean to be. I just really got into the discussion and wanted to thoroughly explain my reasons. Now let's put all this unpleasantness behind us and be friends!



And that is the last time I ever post anything this cute on the forums again.

Back to the Topic....

Well it's nice to see skowl having fun picking apart my last post . It also gave my some things to ponder on.

Size....Doesn't....Matter! This seems to be a big core of the argument and, quite frankly, this is true. (Unless you are movie Jazz fighting movie Megatron, but that is another story.) Even at 9 ft. I am sure that Arcee, or any fembot, could do some major damage at that size. I still can't see/imagine how a crotch rocket can turn into a 9 ft. robot, even when you split the wheels in every which way) but if ILM or whoever does the effects can do a good job making it look real then I guess that is all that matters.

Hell, if I an accept Yoda and his lightsaber fight in SWII then I should be able to accept pretty much anything.



As for the pink/fuschia color fiasco..... I still HATE the color pink or any other variation being put with female characters.

But, as a Transformers Fan, I would hate it even more if they did create Arcee for the movie and didn't keep some essence of her G1 colouring......

......And the fuschia color isn't all that bad either. *grumbles*

And before I forget.....

iopele wrote:Bok bok! Now that you say that, I can DEFINITELY her chickeny characteristics. Will she lay Energon eggs on Easter?

Yes. Yes, I believe she will. Chocolate Easter Transformers for all!!

Thanks for forgiving me, I'll try not to be so, abrupt in drawing conclusions.

BTW: yes, size doesn't matter, GO YODA! And I STILL don't get what's wrong with pink/fuschia, Arcee is feminene, and those are feminene colors, well, at least they are generally thought of as feminnene colors, and would help the general public in knowing "That Tf's a chick." Also, please forgive me as I have no clue how to spell femmiennnnnei

what about Beast Machines? I'm not big on them, but I hear that most of them are bioorganics, (with organs and guts n stuff), so couldn't they actually be profiled by gender? (And also have the possibility for robosex, lol)

Personally I would like to keep gender out of the equation of Transfomers movie series. Not that I didn't mind it in the original and newer series, but to make it more real gender based things is a Earth evolution, not of another alien species. Alot of the female species of Earth are larger tnen the male, and in bugs, they eat the male. Feminine acting species are mostly only in mammals. Newer fans would see having a pink transformer "Arcee" and calling it a "female' transformer is sexist, and also unoriginal.

The only way it would work to me is if "Arcee" is simply trying to imitate what "it" saw observing the humans in terms of acting female, which would need to be majorly mentioned.

Hmm..
I think it could be this way:
If the Allspark crashed on the planet of Cybertron so very long ago, it is possible that the Transformers are the "evolved" form of what was created by the Allspark so long ago. Maybe the males and females of the Cybertronian species are what happened later, and the beginning robots were actually genderless. It could be that the Earth robots that were created by the Allspark are what these early robots must have looked like long ago.
Maybe the early Cybertronians were like these little robots, and their creation led to the demise of an ancient alien civilization, just like it almost led to ours.

I was thinking this, as the newly created robots are not only just copied technology from Megatron, they could be "wild" robots too. If they "evolved," they would probably be a new but extremely agressive species of humanoid robot.

I just remembered, "BROTHER!" Optimus Prime stating Megatron is his brother(male). Thats opens it to gender, oh well, could be brother in a sense of brotherhood and not gender.

I have a therory along the lines of what Zombie Starscream said. The Allspark was created by a race of organic aliens that were so passionate about machines that they decided to create a whloe race of them. They made the Allspark with basic life function programming that it would give to all of it's creation. This included the random assigining of gender, as a failsafe (this may sound wrong to some of you, but I'm just trying to explain this) in case the Allspark were destroyed. That's my therory anyway, no one say things like "Ewwwwwww!" or "That's wrong" or "sicko"

I just really want to see Arcee in the movie.
I'm just really worried that the writers are going to screw it up...

While I personally don't really wanna see Arcee in the next film, as the father of a 2yr old girl obsessed with "Tah-moo-mahs!" and "Oh-moose Phime!" Arcee does give me a nice way I can justify indulging her ("Nah Honey, it's fine - I brought her the girl one...")

I tend to agree with Darkqueen and the others, here we have an advanced race of machines that reproduce asexually, so I'd agree with the idea that Cybertronians most likely never even developed the concept of genders, let alone nouns / titles to designate them. (although Ratchets comments in the alley seem to indicate an understanding of the role Gender plays in biological reproduction - although this could have been assimilated at the same time as broader subjects, such as language, etc)

But if we're looking for a way to justify the inclusion of Female TFs in the movie setting, what about this:

Here we have a race of extremely adaptive robots, who face having the sole means of repopulating their numbers (the Allspark) destroyed. Perhaps Arcee is simply the product of some form of adaptation / evolution - a new breed of Cybertronian capable of producing new life?? A evolutionary reaction to the looming threat of extinction, inspired by the organic life they have observed in the world(s) around them.*

* Please don't mistake this as me saying that a woman's purpose is to bear children. Though even if I <i>was</i> saying so - is that a bad thing? I mean, you can <i>make your own <u>people!!</u></i> how freaking cool is that!?! But anyway, thats a discussion for another time I spose...

Kudos to you Sentry Prime.
You actually stated your opinions clearly and thoughtfully without bashing anyone else.
I wish more people did.

Yeah, good theories, Sentry Prime, the problem ONCE AGAIN, though is the robosex theory. They are ROBOTS. Robots don't need to evolve BECAUSE THEY'RE ARTIFICIAL FREAKING LIFEFORMS. The day they make Transformers produce robobabies is the day I quit being a fan.

Haven't they already done that though?
I mean not babies, but weren't there TF kids running around in the begining of the old movie?

And speaking of robobabies...
http://lagunal8.deviantart.com/art/Arma ... y-14011829

This coming from a girl who has a few female Transformers, I just want to say that I don't think there's anything wrong with femmes. Then again, I am a girl, as I said.

Anyways, Transformers are not gender specific, and the only thins different between the two are vocal patterns and frame design. Arcee had a female voice and a female design, so she was considered female. They're robots, they have no biological differences, as I said, but would it make sense if Transformers called each other 'it'?

I mean, when referring to another Transformers, would they go, "This is Starscream, it's a little winy, but a good flier...most of the time..."? So, they call each other 'he' or 'she' to refrain from that. I dunno, just my guess/view, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

PS: And, yes, there were sparklings/sparklets running around in the beginning of the TF Movie.

Night Strike wrote:This coming from a girl who has a few female Transformers, I just want to say that I don't think there's anything wrong with femmes. Then again, I am a girl, as I said.

Anyways, Transformers are not gender specific, and the only thins different between the two are vocal patterns and frame design. Arcee had a female voice and a female design, so she was considered female. They're robots, they have no biological differences, as I said, but would it make sense if Transformers called each other 'it'?

I mean, when referring to another Transformers, would they go, "This is Starscream, it's a little winy, but a good flier...most of the time..."? So, they call each other 'he' or 'she' to refrain from that. I dunno, just my guess/view, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

PS: And, yes, there were sparklings/sparklets running around in the beginning of the TF Movie.

I guess if I'm being completely biologically correct, the only difference between males and females is reproductive organs.
TF's don't have those, and body shape really doesn't count because even here on earth there are really girly looking men and really burly looking women.
But to me, gender isn't completely defined by organs.
I mean really (and forgive me for being blunt), if a male or female human gets a castration or a hysterectomy do you start calling them an "it?" No. Because They are not "its." They are men and women.
TF's do not call each other "it" because they are not its. They are he's and she's. Even before coming to earth they refer to themselves as such.

But I think we're are taking the whole thing way to seriously. The fact is that there are male and female TF's.

P.S.- I knew I saw little sparklings...

*nods* Pretty much what I was getting to, only I forgot to say that whole part about them not being its. I guess I kinda worded it wrong, but you pretty much got my point. And, yeah, there are male and female TFs.

So what if they don't have biological differences? But, meh, like you said, we're taking this too seriously and thinking way too deep.

PS: Yeah, and they were cute, too. ^^

I'm glad we get each other. ^^
I think what a lot of people forget is the fact that no matter how much they argue and complain, the fact is that there are male and female TF's.
That's what the creators decided and that's how it is.

P.S.- Yeah, they were.
P.S.S.- Hey did you see that picture on that link I posted?

*nods* Yeah; not our choice. It's theirs. And there are female TFs as well as males.

PS: Times like that I'm glad I created a sparkling TF. XD They're too cute to resist!
PSS: Yeah, I did. He's so cuuuuuuuuuute!! ^^

Night Strike wrote:*nods* Yeah; not our choice. It's theirs. And there are female TFs as well as males.

PS: Times like that I'm glad I created a sparkling TF. XD They're too cute to resist!
PSS: Yeah, I did. He's so cuuuuuuuuuute!! ^^

Yep!!

P.S.- You got that right!!
P.S.S.- Isn't he? You wanna see more?

^^

PS: I know. Two/three/four year olds are so cute...especially as TFs! (Would have gone higher, but then there'd have been to many slashes. XD)

PSS: Ooh! Yes, please!

PSSS: Gosh, my girly-girlness is showing...*shifty eyes* Must hide it....

Night Strike wrote:^^

PS: I know. Two/three/four year olds are so cute...especially as TFs! (Would have gone higher, but then there'd have been to many slashes. XD)

PSS: Ooh! Yes, please!

PSSS: Gosh, my girly-girlness is showing...*shifty eyes* Must hide it....

PS: Heck yeah!!

PSS: Here you go!!
http://shiroineko-sama.deviantart.com/a ... m-13848397
http://shiroineko-sama.deviantart.com/a ... m-13848528
(just remember that none of these are mine (I WISH!!))

PSSS: No!! Go ahead!! Parade it around for all to see!!
You know I do!!

You're right - we are taking it way too seriously, but that's why we're nutty fans!

The idea that Arcee could be part of a new breed capable of creating offspring doesn't necessarily require that there be some sort of binary coupling - for that matter the whole process of "robosex" as it was termed could be, and most likely is, completely different from its biological counterpart.

<b><u>IF</u></b> the reproductive process is binary in nature, I would imagine it would be a simple transfer of power, and <u>MAYBE</u> Cybertronian nanite materials.

<b>LONG WINDED EXPLANATION</b> - given that the reason why TFs don't change their alt-modes more often is the amount of energy required during the scanning process...couple this with the notion that Cybertronian biology utilises nano-technology (mentioned on the DVD extras), I'd say its reasonable to say that during the scanning process, a Transformer expends a large chunk of energy powering the nanites that literally fabricate the parts/modifications required by the new alt-mode. I believe it is essentially by this process that we see Frenzy rebuild his body, utilising the power of the Allspark cube...(to quote Ratchet: "The Allspark is raw power...")

...I would imagine that the process would involve the "parents" sharing their combined power-stores to fuel the nanite driven creation of a completely separate entity. Perhaps a unique (and therefore distinguishing) feature of "Female" Cybertronians is the ability to use their nanites to create NEW beings, rather than simple "genetic" replication of the host.

...and that ladies and gentlemen, is how you think to hard about something!

I see no good reason not to have RC in the next movie, or any female transformer in general. (Though there are not many.)
The thing that really gets me about most of the people who don’t like RC are mainly guys, and most of them are really basing it all on a chauvinistic attitude toward the idea of strong women characters. (Not all guys, but most.) They can hide it with the debate about robot sex all they want. Its basically all a matter of they don’t want girls in their clubhouse.
I’m a dude myself, so trust me, I don’t like ever pulling the “men are evil” point in debates like these either; but lets face it, this is the main reason for most (Again, Most. Not all.) of the hatred directed at the character. Especially the really obnoxious guys who usually make their point in a crude or violent manner.

IE: “RC can suck me. If she is in the next movie, I hope she dies.”

Yes, I have actually heard someone claim that as their opinion on RC.

I saw someone else who mentioned RC is a lame character in that she doesn’t have a interesting personality to bring to the film. And so what if that may have been true for the cartoon character. This is the movies, they can Give her a New personality. One that offers an interesting, strong female character. This is just another lame excuse for the fact some dude doesn’t want no fem-bot in his Transformer movie.

I am sure I’m going to get a lot of bull for saying this. And I am going to stress this again that I am not saying All guys are bigots(being a guy myself.) when it comes to the RC debate. But it is the primary reason for most of the hate dumped on the character.

I think Tazirai made the best point on explaining why or how you can have a female TF in the next movie.

Tazirai wrote:Most of the people opposed to female transformers

1) See nothing wrong with male transformers (hypocrites)
2) Feel threatened by the idea of Female robots.
3) Don't realize the first robot EVER filmed was female.
4) Dont realize the second robot ever filmed was female.
5) Have Gender ID issues.
6) Can't or wont understand that female is a mental thing.
7) Need to grow up and stop thinking a female bot "HAS" to look female.
Need to read this page. And yes Wiki is valid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gynoid



with that said, I don't mind female transformers, as long as they arent the cliched bad ass or weakling. Just give me a well written gynoid, with good dialogue and a modicrum of development.

but I realize trying to be rational with some people doesnt work.

PS: Being an Ex-soldier I do know that females make better combat pilots than guys. But we rock in melee situations.. if we can fight at all that is. ^^

Thank you for being so mature.

I really do think that Arcee would be a truly cool character. And they could make her character really interesting.

Just her voice actor herself seems interesting...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PiV_KuyK-4
I love that voice!!
And I can't wait to see what it sounds like when its remastered to sound mechanical.
(If Arcee is put in of course.)

In the first world war,Tanks were classed as "female" for carring mostly HMGs and "male" for carring howitzers and cannons.The tanks don't have sex,but they use those names to denote what they do.Maybe Transformers could do the same.And if you at the movies and and see Arcee but don't find out if or why they have sex,will that prevent you from enjoying the movie?Did blackarachnia and airrazor prevent you from watching beast wars?