The Energon Pub

-Kanrabat- wrote:Well, Trump is a businessmen and he want a deal. So, people will have to negociate.

Stiiiiiilllll.....

I don't see why can't we follow the logic that's already printed on North American Transformers boxes (It's written "Longueuil, Québec" in the copyrights section) and import all Transformers pre-made parts in Canada. Then we build the toys and put the finishing touch, pack them here, and they become Canadian goods.

This could work for the USA too I think.

I'm not sure that would work.
Piecemealing parts could make figures extraordinarily expensive.
Tarriffs would still be placed on the incoming pieces individually, possibly raising prices even higher especially once factory work, ie: assembly. packaging, executive fees/wages, are finished.
The U.S doesn't have the infrastructure for this, currently.
Having the means to blow mold or get to the point of printing is years away. Lets not forget the need for the raw/refined plastics needed for production, those get a tariff if not produced homeward as well. It may take a decade or longer, maybe less if companies swoop in to fill a niche. But still won't be solved over night.

Companies like Hasbro may possibly get around such tariffs by splitting and creating: Hasbro, Canada, and having goods shipped directly to home ports.
That could bypass the U.S. ports and initial tariffs.
But, Hasbro execs would have to share profits with more suits thus lowering personal wealth. I'm not sure society is to the point greedy money grubbers are ready to take that kind of pay cut.

Also, as I mentioned before, the US labor Unions would cause prices to shoot up worse than we're thinking now.

chuckdawg1999 wrote:Also, as I mentioned before, the US labor Unions would cause prices to shoot up worse than we're thinking now.

This could be offset by cutting taxes drastically.
But would the government have the courage to do it?

-Kanrabat- wrote:

chuckdawg1999 wrote:Also, as I mentioned before, the US labor Unions would cause prices to shoot up worse than we're thinking now.

This could be offset by cutting taxes drastically.
But would the government have the courage to do it?

As of right now, congress is being very slow or just not at all, working to pass the Trump tax cuts. Which would offset some of this. I agree with the reciprocal tariffs, but some of the others.....I believe/hope its part of Trump's "art of the deal" plan. So far quite a few big companies have newly invested hundreds of millions of dollars in US manufacturing(Apple, Nvidia etc.), so again, some hope. ALready a couple countries have dropped their tariffs in response.

-Kanrabat- wrote:

chuckdawg1999 wrote:Also, as I mentioned before, the US labor Unions would cause prices to shoot up worse than we're thinking now.

This could be offset by cutting taxes drastically.
But would the government have the courage to do it?

That basically what the current U.S. govt is saying they are in the process of doing.
By enacting tariffs on all other foreign countries and deriving income from tariffs, a tax, they will supposedly lower other forms of taxes. It's a ruse to look like something beneficial is being accomplished. All the while the taxes that are lowered, in the form of credits, benefit the wealthy business owners by means of write offs such as "business expenses" and "loss".
Taxes for normies will not be "lowered".

Glyph wrote:

DISCHARGE wrote:By enacting tariffs on all other foreign countries and deriving income from tariffs, a tax, they will supposedly lower other forms of taxes.

The thing that people have been repeatedly trying, and failing, to make his supporters understand is that tariffs are paid by the IMPORTER, not the EXPORTER. The idea of a tariff is to raise the price of imported X to encourage people to buy domestic X. This is a problem if, like the US, you don't or can't (profitably) produce X domestically.

Yep
This makes imports a luxury. A tax initially paid by the importer and passed down the line.
The U.S. imports waaay more than it exports. There is so much backward thinking that by pricing many imported goods out of the reach of a nation's citizen they will buy a national brand.
If that national brand doesn't exist communities are left in the cold.
We've progressed past that stage in economic society after the big wars. So many factories were converted from manufacturing goods to manufacture munitions and implements of war. Those businesses were not necessary afterward because the void was filled by developing nations seeking to decrease unemployment and could provide war wary nations the goods they needed.
Afterwards, utilizing the dollar to back worldwide debt America became a buying powerhouse. Setting up shop in less developed countries businesses were poised to reap huge benefits because America honored free trade agreements.
Until the world realizes they don't need the dollar and can go back to using gold or even other rare metals (or any other resource)the current U.S. administration will grift. BRICS is moving towards that goal, slowly. While I don't agree with most of the nations involved in BRICS regarding human rights they are sovereign nations and could band together and introduce a monetary standard for themselves and other nations tired of U.S. hegemony.
Sadly some people acknowledge the grift while others live in a stagnant reality yearning for the good old days when you could destroy the environment for profit. Which is something I don't understand. If you are going to release pollution for profit, why do it in your own backyard and not your neighbors.

If what I see involving China is an indicator, moving production locally could result in a 30 year boom and then a huge crash once the roles in manufacturing are reversed. That is once another super power nation does the same as the U.S. and pulls the rug out from under its global partners.

DISCHARGE wrote:Companies like Hasbro may possibly get around such tariffs by splitting and creating: Hasbro, Canada, and having goods shipped directly to home ports.
That could bypass the U.S. ports and initial tariffs.

This is where my mind went and its similar to what Kanrabat was getting at, rerouting trade routes to avoid higher tariffs.

Dino-Snarl wrote:It may not be long before Hasbro starts canceling factory orders in Vietnam (hit with 46% tariffs), making it impossible to finish the lines that have been scheduled for this year and the upcoming years. This might be the death knell for production for Hasbro in Vietnam, but not for to TakaraTomy. Collectors may just switch over to them to finish the lines that have already been announced and then see what happens next. Japan has gone it alone in the past. When G1 ended in the rest of the world they continued with three more series in Japan with figures only Japan got.

Problem is the Generations line survives only as a partnership between Hasbro and Takara Tomy. If Hasbro pulls out I could see TT doing the same. As it is they only use that Vietnam factory because Hasbro does, all of their original stuff like Masterpiece is made in China. I think without Hasbro the factories would just shut down, or perhaps just become storage for molds. Here's the thing, Cocks does not want to make toys, as soon as they become unprofitable they'll just stop making them and under him they're never going back. I can't see a future where he goes back later. He's more likely to license out Transformers wholesale to another company to make. Like he did with Power Rangers he'd probably sell off any assets they have, sell off molds that other companies may be interested in and destroy the rest. I know it's a pessimistic view and a lot of doom and gloom, but it's entirely possible between a CEO that doesn't want to make toys and market that can't make them profitable.

Even if Takara did keep Age of the Primes running without Hasbro we'd be paying both a tariff on the Chinese or Vietnamese origin and the Japanese import. Final price could be astronomical.

Emerje

william-james88 wrote:

DISCHARGE wrote:Companies like Hasbro may possibly get around such tariffs by splitting and creating: Hasbro, Canada, and having goods shipped directly to home ports.
That could bypass the U.S. ports and initial tariffs.

This is where my mind went and its similar to what Kanrabat was getting at, rerouting trade routes to avoid higher tariffs.

If this is the case, Canada will be more than happy to help our American collectors and friends. God Bless us all.

Emerje wrote:Problem is the Generations line survives only as a partnership between Hasbro and Takara Tomy. If Hasbro pulls out I could see TT doing the same. As it is they only use that Vietnam factory because Hasbro does, all of their original stuff like Masterpiece is made in China. I think without Hasbro the factories would just shut down, or perhaps just become storage for molds. Here's the thing, Cocks does not want to make toys, as soon as they become unprofitable they'll just stop making them and under him they're never going back. I can't see a future where he goes back later. He's more likely to license out Transformers wholesale to another company to make. Like he did with Power Rangers he'd probably sell off any assets they have, sell off molds that other companies may be interested in and destroy the rest. I know it's a pessimistic view and a lot of doom and gloom, but it's entirely possible between a CEO that doesn't want to make toys and market that can't make them profitable.

Yeah, it's like I said in the article, Hasbro was already shifting its priorities and Cocks is not into toys as much as he is into gaming, so them stopping their own toy production is the more likely outcome if costs become untenable. We're seeing it right now with automobile plants, which are stopping production. Only difference is Hasbro doesn't own the Vietnamese factories, nor factories of any kind. So the factory won't shut down, they'll just get contracts from other companies requiring assembly and plastic injection.

Also, if it's only takara doing Transformers, I don't think you get double tariffs importing to the US, you'd get just the Japan tariff. But this administration is doing things very differently than what we've seen conventionally with imports and calculations so it's impossible to be sure of anything.

Where is this idea that tariffs are the same as VAT come from?

VAT is short for Value Added Tax, and is something that's duo on everything that is sold, some US states have what's called Sales Tax, that's what VAT is.

It's not a tariff or a tax on foreign goods, it's a tax you pay as part of the goods you're buying, regardless if foreign made or locally made. It's basically the government taking a cut out of all sales.

What you're looking for is called import tax, which the US also has, but is quite generous with implementing for private citizens. For years, I had Americans laugh at me because I had to pay import tax on US and Japan exclusives. Import tax is stupid for people with niche interests like me, because oftentimes you have no other choice, but it's important to incentivise people buying locally.

It's hilarious to me that people are shocked about Cocks admitting to the low wages in Vietnam, I remember back in 2007 when Hasbro talked about the manufacturing process, and telling us that Movie 2007 Leader Class Optimus Prime cost USD 0.70 in labour and materials to produce per figure. They were also very open about the costs when they first announced their move from China to Vietnam, citing the fact that China was becoming more and more expensive. The fandom cheered at the decision to cut costs by moving to Vietnam. Hell, there were leaks from the first Vietnam factory complaining about the working conditions Hasbro implemented, and the members on this site decried those as fake news.

It is not just the labour costs that attract companies to produce in foreign countries, but also the infrastructure and supply chains.

China invested in a massive infrastructure program to quickly and efficiently produce things. They have the raw materials for plastic production, they have factories that produce the raw plastic granulates, they have to know how, they have the factories that can efficiently cast plastic parts.

Vietnam decided to do the same, that's why Hasbro built their factory there, and remember how long it took to move production? It took years, and that was with Vietnam supporting the effort.

Nobody could afford Transformers if they were made in the US, and no, not even if they got rid of unions.

Every figure would be Masterpiece prices, but engineering, quality and engineering of Deluxes, with minimum wage below what the US has now. Only way that would kinda work, is if there were just a handful of figures a year and them staying on sale for 2 years +

Because don't forget, when you pay for a Transformer, you're not only paying for the costs of materials and labour, you're paying for the packaging, toy design, packaging design, transport, wages and salaries for the people that come up with products, the services, the offices, social media people, the overhead costs for the factories and office buildings, the company infrastructure and the same for the stores and suppliers you buy the figures from.

One thing I know is if this EMS box from HLJ doesn't hurry the heck up and leave Tokyo (where it's already sat unmoving for two days) and get here before the 9th, and if that means I have to pay another 46% of the declared value or something, that's gonna suck. That helps no one. I am wholly unconvinced that any of this will ever materially benefit a single consumer, and sadly, that's probably the point.


You are being deceived.

As I predicted, other countries has started negotiating.

Glyph wrote:

Hero Alpha wrote:I agree with the reciprocal tariffs

For the avoidance of doubt, these are not "reciprocal tariffs". The EU, for example, does not have a blanket 39% tariff on US goods; Vietnam (where our toys are made) does not have a 90% tariff on US goods............etc.

Yeah I know, thats why I said what I said in my post, which u clipped out. Never did I say these were all reciprocal. I still agree with the reciprocal tariffs that have been introduced. It's the others I am cautiously hopeful will eventually be positive for the US. Thought I had made my first post easy enough to understand.

Hero Alpha wrote:

-Kanrabat- wrote:

chuckdawg1999 wrote:Also, as I mentioned before, the US labor Unions would cause prices to shoot up worse than we're thinking now.

This could be offset by cutting taxes drastically.
But would the government have the courage to do it?

As of right now, congress is being very slow or just not at all, working to pass the Trump tax cuts. Which would offset some of this. I agree with the reciprocal tariffs, but some of the others.....I believe/hope its part of Trump's "art of the deal" plan. So far quite a few big companies have newly invested hundreds of millions of dollars in US manufacturing(Apple, Nvidia etc.), so again, some hope. ALready a couple countries have dropped their tariffs in response.

I don't want to cut out any of your post.
Please list the countries that have dropped their tariffs on the U.S. due to reciprocal tariffs.
There are a few countries left off the list of tariffs due to existing sanctions like Russia, North Korea and Cuba. Countries we are not allowed to do business with due to horrific human rights abuse among a slew of other issues. Mexico is not being impacted due to existing trade agreements, and maybe other factors I won't speculate.
There is so much more happening, and about to happen using tariffs to gaslight society
Reducing government in the light of exposing fraud and abuse is a blindside to consolidate powers and have less people say "No, that's not legal or ethical."
Oh wow Apple is going to produce some iPhones in the U.S.
Well thats good because so many people who have been in place to efficiently run government services like the TSA, who's union contract has been torn up up null and void are losing their jobs.
Privatizing the post office is going to result in more people losing their jobs.. well it's great we'll have manufacturing jobs to fill that gap in the work environment. We are going to start ripping up our forests, national treasures of beauty and granduer, great we'll need loggers. I'm sure all these TikTokers are looking forward to that if they lose their payroll if that platform is banned. Yes that's a different issue but involves citizens that may lose their income and means of living. I've had factory jobs, they were droll and mind-numbing.
We are also moving quickly with advancements in A.I.. what then when robots are put in place to do the repetitive manufacuring jobs rendering human hands unnecessary? They are 3D printing houses. There will come a point when builders are not needed.
I could honestly see a future where Hasbro sells a license to print and you receive screws and pins through Amazon and build your own toys.

There is more going on with these tariffs than what is on the surface. I would personally be more acceptable of a flat federal sales tax than attempting to convince people tariffs "level the playing field". The government at the moment is trying to make money. Not collect funds to operate. The U.S. government is not a money making enterprise. It is by the people for the people.

Apparently vietnam wants to discuss the tariffs with trump. Hopefully this goes well, since vietnam exports a lot to us, and being able to avoid tariffs there will make this situation less bad than it could be, and hopefully allow things like hasbro and nintendo to not need to increase prices. Tariffs across the board will still suck, though.

Glyph wrote:Economically illiterate, obviously - just look at the markets and his reaction to the China reprisal - but I think he also has a contingent around him who know damn well they can pick up fire sale stocks in the crash and make a killing when things eventually recover.

I completely agree. These guys don't care about us - and I mean all of us, both their supporters and detractors. To paraphrase the late, great Mr. Carlin, it's a big club, and we ain't in it.

That club don't collect Transformers either ;_;

ScottyP wrote:

Glyph wrote:Economically illiterate, obviously - just look at the markets and his reaction to the China reprisal - but I think he also has a contingent around him who know damn well they can pick up fire sale stocks in the crash and make a killing when things eventually recover.

I completely agree. These guys don't care about us - and I mean all of us, both their supporters and detractors. To paraphrase the late, great Mr. Carlin, it's a big club, and we ain't in it.

That club don't collect Transformers either ;_;

I'm sure Trump is full of good intentions, but we all know the saying...

As things are going, it seems the baby have been thrown out along the bathwater. All we plebs can do for now is to wait and see.

Glyph wrote:
Economically illiterate, obviously - just look at the markets and his reaction to the China reprisal - but I think he also has a contingent around him who know damn well they can pick up fire sale stocks in the crash and make a killing when things eventually recover.

No need to wait for a recovery, they all made a killing already by shorting the market. Shorting gets me way too stressed (since your losses can be insane) and I’m personally against it as a practice for wealth generation but this was predictable and anyone ok with shorting made quite a bit of money from this.

Dead Metal wrote:Where is this idea that tariffs are the same as VAT come from?

It was in an official document from the whitehouse:

This approach will be of comprehensive scope, examining non-reciprocal trade relationships with all United States trading partners, including any:

(a) tariffs imposed on United States products;

(b) unfair, discriminatory, or extraterritorial taxes imposed by our trading partners on United States businesses, workers, and consumers, including a value-added tax;

Canada has VAT imposed on imports as well and while I am jealous of Americans not having such a fee in the past, I do concede that it’s fair. Hence why I understand why the US would want to have a similar practice. The reason they aren’t doing it like other countries though (and going with tariffs instead) is because this would be a straight up tax and the whole spirit of the party in power is to reduce taxes, not directly add one to citizens.

Food for thought, toys are way at the bottom of important things that will be affected by the tarrifs.

From what I gather, the point of these drastic measures by the US government is to become the global leader in manufacturing, which is not something it ever was. What I wonder is are manufacturing jobs the ones people in the US want? I get it for the unemployed, but is that kind of work preferred over other low wage jobs, like working at Walmart or Amazon or McDonalds?

Basically, would Americans be up for the work in the video below at $10 an hour?



And this is not a diss on anyone currently doing this sort of work. Work is work and providing for you and your loved ones is a noble task in itself. I was just wondering if some Americans here could chime in on whether or not these are the kinds of jobs people are looking forward to having as a big part of the US workforce. Because that’s a big part of the end goal here, for the US.

DISCHARGE wrote:

Hero Alpha wrote:

-Kanrabat- wrote:

chuckdawg1999 wrote:Also, as I mentioned before, the US labor Unions would cause prices to shoot up worse than we're thinking now.

This could be offset by cutting taxes drastically.
But would the government have the courage to do it?

As of right now, congress is being very slow or just not at all, working to pass the Trump tax cuts. Which would offset some of this. I agree with the reciprocal tariffs, but some of the others.....I believe/hope its part of Trump's "art of the deal" plan. So far quite a few big companies have newly invested hundreds of millions of dollars in US manufacturing(Apple, Nvidia etc.), so again, some hope. ALready a couple countries have dropped their tariffs in response.

I don't want to cut out any of your post.
Please list the countries that have dropped their tariffs on the U.S. due to reciprocal tariffs.
There are a few countries left off the list of tariffs due to existing sanctions like Russia, North Korea and Cuba. Countries we are not allowed to do business with due to horrific human rights abuse among a slew of other issues. Mexico is not being impacted due to existing trade agreements, and maybe other factors I won't speculate.
There is so much more happening, and about to happen using tariffs to gaslight society
Reducing government in the light of exposing fraud and abuse is a blindside to consolidate powers and have less people say "No, that's not legal or ethical."
Oh wow Apple is going to produce some iPhones in the U.S.
Well thats good because so many people who have been in place to efficiently run government services like the TSA, who's union contract has been torn up up null and void are losing their jobs.
Privatizing the post office is going to result in more people losing their jobs.. well it's great we'll have manufacturing jobs to fill that gap in the work environment. We are going to start ripping up our forests, national treasures of beauty and granduer, great we'll need loggers. I'm sure all these TikTokers are looking forward to that if they lose their payroll if that platform is banned. Yes that's a different issue but involves citizens that may lose their income and means of living. I've had factory jobs, they were droll and mind-numbing.
We are also moving quickly with advancements in A.I.. what then when robots are put in place to do the repetitive manufacuring jobs rendering human hands unnecessary? They are 3D printing houses. There will come a point when builders are not needed.
I could honestly see a future where Hasbro sells a license to print and you receive screws and pins through Amazon and build your own toys.

There is more going on with these tariffs than what is on the surface. I would personally be more acceptable of a flat federal sales tax than attempting to convince people tariffs "level the playing field". The government at the moment is trying to make money. Not collect funds to operate. The U.S. government is not a money making enterprise. It is by the people for the people.

Actually it's quite a few more countries than that that are exempt. Not just ones with current sanctions, From Newsweek article:

Full List of Countries Not Hit by Reciprocal Tariffs

Belarus
Burkina Faso
Canada
Cuba
Mexico
North Korea
Palau
Russia
Seychelles
Somalia
Vatican City

And the link to article/map with all the countries and the ones with lower/lowered than the US now; https://www.newsweek.com/map-shows-how-countries-respond-trump-tariffs-2055320

Try this one as well:https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-tariffs-canada-israel-mexico-2054836 More on topic; Vietnam(per that article) is very open to negotiating and/or dropping their tariffs. So our little corner will hopefully be fine.

I chose Newsweek as I hoped it would be politically leaning enough to satisfy. My advice is everyone do the reading and research for themselves and not rely on me anyone here or elsewhere to believe.