The Energon Pub

Primus C-00 wrote:A man who once experienced Samahdhi once inquired:

"What does an atheist say when they cum?"



I've still yet to hear an answer on that...

Personally, I'm so great I call out my own name.

Professor Smooth wrote:I'll be blunt. I absolutely look down on people who believe in God. I see them as ignorant at best, deranged at worst. The vast majority of people who claim belief in God have never read The Bible, have never studied the teachings of Christ, and have never studied any religions outside of their own. They believe in God in spite of mountains of evidence to the contrary.

And I'll be blunt, I absolutely believe that people who HAVE to be right about atheism (is that a word?) are closed minded, irrational to other people's feetlings, high-minded, arrogant, and pompous. I'm just not going to ask you to prove your feelings, because quite frankly...I don't care. I don't have to be that much in control of the universe to be at peace with myself and my beliefs, and quite frankly, I couldn't care less if you think I'm ignorant because of it.

Besides, you don't really believe in God anyway. Not seriously. If somebody went on TV and told him that God had said to kill a bunch of people (as the God of Abraham does on a fairly regular basis if the Bible is to be taken at face value), you'd probably dismiss him as a nut. If somebody went on TV and said that God told him to tell you to do ANYTHING, you'd think he was a nut.

Funny, for a second there it sounded like you know what I believe more than me. THAT'S the height of ignorance. Don't presume to tell me what I really believe, and I won't presume to tell you where you can shove it.

Loki120 wrote:

Professor Smooth wrote: I'll be blunt. I absolutely look down on people who believe in God. I see them as ignorant at best, deranged at worst. The vast majority of people who claim belief in God have never read The Bible, have never studied the teachings of Christ, and have never studied any religions outside of their own. They believe in God in spite of mountains of evidence to the contrary.

And I'll be blunt, I absolutely believe that people who HAVE to be right about atheism (is that a word?) are closed minded, irrational to other people's feetlings, high-minded, arrogant, and pompous. I'm just not going to ask you to prove your feelings, because quite frankly...I don't care. I don't have to be that much in control of the universe to be at peace with myself and my beliefs, and quite frankly, I couldn't care less if you think I'm ignorant because of it.

...people who have to be right about Atheism? What do you think Atheism is? If you believe that it's KNOWING there is no God, then you're sadly mistaken. Atheists don't claim to know, for certain, that there is no God. They say that without evidence, there is no reason to believe it.

A person who says that they believe in God or that they have a personal relationship with God sounds the same as a person who claims to be George Washington. That person is either deranged or lying.

You want to talk about being close minded? How about holding onto a belief in an INVISIBLE MAN IN THE SKY who created the world is SIX DAYS, hates sex (and women in general), can't keep his story straight, watches everything you do every second of every day, has a list of things that, if you do, you will be condemned to a place of fire and torture where you will suffer continuously until the end of time...but he loves you. But that's not enough, is it? No, that's not enough. These religious people have to use their beliefs to take away rights and freedoms from other people while screaming that THEY are being persecuted! "Waa! You don't respect my delusion! I believe in demons and spirits and angels, and you're OPPRESSING ME by not letting my badly translated fairy tales be taught in science class!"

Loki120 wrote:

Professor Smooth wrote:

Besides, you don't really believe in God anyway. Not seriously. If somebody went on TV and told him that God had said to kill a bunch of people (as the God of Abraham does on a fairly regular basis if the Bible is to be taken at face value), you'd probably dismiss him as a nut. If somebody went on TV and said that God told him to tell you to do ANYTHING, you'd think he was a nut.

Funny, for a second there it sounded like you know what I believe more than me. THAT'S the height of ignorance. Don't presume to tell me what I really believe, and I won't presume to tell you where you can shove it.

I see what you did there. Rather that provide some justification for your beliefs, you instead play the "You don't know me! I'm offended! Shove it!" card. Well that's just fine. But if you can't defend your beliefs without childish taunts and thinly veiled threats, then that must really say something about your belief system.

See, I might not know what your beliefs are, but I am well versed in what Christians, Jews, Muslims, Scientologists, Mormons, Satanists, etc PROFESS to believe. I've studied all of the "divine" and "supernatural" literature and found ALL of it easily dismissable. Every piece of literature BY or ABOUT God is CAN be disproven, despite the belief that you can't prove a negative. Why? Because they people who wrote it were prone to making mistakes. The Old Testament and Islam talk about historical events that never happened; The New Testament offers radically different versions of the same event. Even a quick glance at the "Book of Mormon" or the entire religion of Scientology debunk them as total frauds.

Maybe you're a Pagan, or Wiccan, or a Satanist. Well take a look at some of the studies on Pagan and Wiccan rituals using double blind tests and disallusion yourself. The same applies to the rituals found in the back of The Satanic Bible.

Every possible system of belief has been tested and proven to be, at least in part, untrue. All of this information is readily available. Instead of trying to make the world fit in with your beliefs, why not take a look at how the world really works and adjust your beliefs accordingly?

Yeah, that's the thing...I don't have to provide justification for my beliefs, and certainly not to you. You seem to be under the mistaken impression that I HAVE to prove God to you in order to justify my beliefs. I have some news for you, you're just not that important. (Despite what you my obviously think about yourself.)

You don't have to believe in God, if that's your wish. I'm certainly not going to even try and change your mind, that's a personal decision. But don't expect others to have to prove God's existence to you in order for you to be happy with the universe. And I know this to be true, because every one of your posts is filled with evidence as to why God can't exist, and you just cannot accept that someone else could possibly hold a view of a divine power...and for some reason, that threatens you.

I see what you did there.

Did you? Did you really?
I'm overjoyed...really.
But you sort of missed the point. I wasn't justifying the existence of God with thinely vieled threats, I was justifying that maybe...just maybe, you really don't know EVERYTHING and you certainly don't know what I, myself, believe in.

Instead of trying to make the world fit in with your beliefs, why not take a look at how the world really works and adjust your beliefs accordingly?

Oh the irony...the irony...
Do I even need to point out the flaw here?
I'm not trying to make the world fit into my beliefs, and I'm certainly not trying to change your view to concide with mine (unlike you). I don't believe the world to be only a few thousand years old, I'm a former geology student...I may believe in a higher ideal, but I'm not stupid. I'm very scientific natured, and I don't take the bible as literal truth.
Maybe, just maybe I'm not the one who's trying to change how the world works, but you certainly are.

Loki120 wrote: I don't believe the world to be only a few thousand years old, I'm a former geology student...I may believe in a higher ideal, but I'm not stupid. I'm very scientific natured, and I don't take the bible as literal truth.

So you admit you're not a Christian. Great. Everyone wins.

[/quote]

Professor Smooth wrote:Personally, I'm so great I call out my own name.

Now that, was funny!



Seriously guys, the sex athiesm thing, I was a little tenative about saying that in case you thought I was baiting you all. I wasn't just wanted to inject some humour, or at least stir it up. The humour that is not the hatred...

Loki120 wrote:Yeah, that's the thing...I don't have to provide justification for my beliefs,

actually, in a rational debate you do, and it was in LG's forum rules before the boardwipe(i really wish CB would put that back up).

also if you actually want to take part in a discussion here, you should be open to having your opinions critiqued and be asked for justification, and if you can't or won't provide justification, why are even entering into a dabate?

Professor Smooth wrote:

Loki120 wrote: I don't believe the world to be only a few thousand years old, I'm a former geology student...I may believe in a higher ideal, but I'm not stupid. I'm very scientific natured, and I don't take the bible as literal truth.

So you admit you're not a Christian. Great. Everyone wins.

[/quote]

Only in your mind, my friend. I know who and what I am, I don't need to prove anything to you.
Considering you just sidestepped my entire post, just goes to further prove my point. But then, you're proving yourself to be the wank here, not me.

[quote="Tammuz"} Actually, in a rational debate you do, and it was in LG's forum rules before the boardwipe(i really wish CB would put that back up).

also if you actually want to take part in a discussion here, you should be open to having your opinions critiqued and be asked for justification, and if you can't or won't provide justification, why are even entering into a dabate?[/quote]

Actually, no I don't. And that was the entire point of my position. Believing in the existence of God is something you can only take on faith, there is no physical evidence to truely quantify it. And it's just as insulting to be told that you have justify those beliefs by anyone, just as I were to sling around that Smooth was a satanist because he doens't believe. I wouldn't presume to tell him as much, I just don't appreciate being told what I can or cannot possibly believe based on his little, teeny-tiny existence.

Simple fact is that Christianity threatens Professor Smooth in some way. It shatters his little world psyche because he can't accept that someone holds a different world view than him. And what's truely tragic is not that he's an athiest, I couldn't care less, is that he can't afford that same consideration to others without the need to belittle, demean, or otherwise be an ass about it.

I have clearly stated my problems with Christianity. It harms people. "I don't think that Atheists should be considered patriots or citizens, this is one nation under God." The first President Bush said that.

I love being called a wank for asking somebody to justify a position. If I participated in a thread and made the claim that I ride to work on the wings of a giant silver dragon and provided no evidence, I suppose you wouldn't see a problem with that.

You have said that there is no evidence for your God and that it must be taken on faith. That's fine. But I have also submitted evidence that goes against your religion. So what do you say to the evidence that contradicts your views?

The rules of this forum state that you must justify your position. That's the whole point of this forum. If you can't abide by that, then by all means, spend time in another forum.

Loki120 wrote:
Actually, no I don't. And that was the entire point of my position. Believing in the existence of God is something you can only take on faith, there is no physical evidence to truely quantify it.

fine, stay out of the debate then; if you can't accept people criticizing your beleifs you shouldn't discuss them.

however Faith is not acceptable argument in a rational debate, so the only logical position on god's existence is that of weak atheism, no?

oh and by the way high minded is a compliment, thank you.

Professor Smooth wrote:I have clearly stated my problems with Christianity. It harms people. "I don't think that Atheists should be considered patriots or citizens, this is one nation under God." The first President Bush said that.

And what about the many Christian charities out there that do help people, like the Salvatron Army, who are usually the first people on the scene of disaster areas offering help without basis of creed? They're views are based on Christian religion, or did I find the first chink in the armor of "It harms people".
Are you going to tell someone on their deathbed, who just confessed his sins that to feel at peace with himself just before death that he's wrong?
Are you going to tell the sixteen year old who just turned his entire life around from drugs and violence because he found faith in God that he's wrong?
Who is doing the harm now? Or is your view somehow still justified because you can't accept that someone still holds a different belief than your own.

I love being called a wank for asking somebody to justify a position. If I participated in a thread and made the claim that I ride to work on the wings of a giant silver dragon and provided no evidence, I suppose you wouldn't see a problem with that.

Actually no, you could worship the almighty Spagetti monster, I wouldn't care because it doesn't threaten my world view. It's your personal choice, not mine, and I have no anal need to prove you wrong.

You have said that there is no evidence for your God and that it must be taken on faith. That's fine. But I have also submitted evidence that goes against your religion. So what do you say to the evidence that contradicts your views?

Nothing. Because it doesn't harm me at all. Besides, most of your evidence is based on a total literal interpretation of the Bible. I'm not so foolish to do that. Most bible scholars will tell you the same thing.

The rules of this forum state that you must justify your position. That's the whole point of this forum. If you can't abide by that, then by all means, spend time in another forum.

I did justify my positon in that I don't have to validate my beliefs based on your values. Which was my only point to begin with.

Loki120 wrote:

Professor Smooth wrote: I have clearly stated my problems with Christianity. It harms people. "I don't think that Atheists should be considered patriots or citizens, this is one nation under God." The first President Bush said that.

And what about the many Christian charities out there that do help people, like the Salvatron Army, who are usually the first people on the scene of disaster areas offering help without basis of creed? They're views are based on Christian religion, or did I find the first chink in the armor of "It harms people".
Are you going to tell someone on their deathbed, who just confessed his sins that to feel at peace with himself just before death that he's wrong?
Are you going to tell the sixteen year old who just turned his entire life around from drugs and violence because he found faith in God that he's wrong?
Who is doing the harm now? Or is your view somehow still justified because you can't accept that someone still holds a different belief than your own.

1) Charities. Yep. Those are good. It does nothing to prove that God exists. It does nothing to deny all the terrible things that religion does. Am I to think that because some Christians do good things that all of the terrible things that other Christians don't do should just be ignored?

2) Deathbed. This is going to sound harsh. But I would not be at the deathbed of somebody who believed in God. I have better things to do with my time.

3) Turned life around: He didn't do it because of God. He just thinks he did. Let me put it to you this way. Many times in my life, I've had to carry a very heavy object over a very long distance. When I feel like I can't go on any more, I usually get the theme song from Kill Bill Volume 2 going in my head and I keep going. A person who believes in God would say that they got the strength to keep going from Jesus or Allah or whoever. The difference between the two is that I don't think that that Uma Thurman was watching down on me and giving me strength. A person who turns his life around because he "found God" is not giving himself enough credit.

Loki120 wrote:

Professor Smooth wrote:
I love being called a wank for asking somebody to justify a position. If I participated in a thread and made the claim that I ride to work on the wings of a giant silver dragon and provided no evidence, I suppose you wouldn't see a problem with that.

Actually no, you could worship the almighty Spagetti monster, I wouldn't care because it doesn't threaten my world view. It's your personal choice, not mine, and I have no anal need to prove you wrong.

Excellent. I should tell you, though, that my flying dragon wants you to give it money and mutilate the genitals of your children.

Loki120 wrote:

Professor Smooth wrote:You have said that there is no evidence for your God and that it must be taken on faith. That's fine. But I have also submitted evidence that goes against your religion. So what do you say to the evidence that contradicts your views?

Nothing. Because it doesn't harm me at all. Besides, most of your evidence is based on a total literal interpretation of the Bible. I'm not so foolish to do that. Most bible scholars will tell you the same thing.

Let me see if I understand you correctly. You don't take The Bible literally? That means that you dismiss some of the claims as purely fantastic and obviously not "literal" but the invisible man in the sky is real? That's about the gist of what you're saying?

Professor Smooth wrote: Let me see if I understand you correctly. You don't take The Bible literally? That means that you dismiss some of the claims as purely fantastic and obviously not "literal" but the invisible man in the sky is real? That's about the gist of what you're saying?

Through means natural (yoga) or man-made (coffee) have you ever been high?

http://www.spiralnature.com/magick/chemognosis/index.html

I think this would help when trying to understand the opinions, of at the very least shamans, chaos mages, Taoists, Drunken Masters and assorted other chemo-gnostics, possibly even Catholics aswell.

Well at least the more cheerier inebriated ones.

Professor Smooth wrote:

Loki120 wrote:

Professor Smooth wrote: I have clearly stated my problems with Christianity. It harms people. "I don't think that Atheists should be considered patriots or citizens, this is one nation under God." The first President Bush said that.

And what about the many Christian charities out there that do help people, like the Salvatron Army, who are usually the first people on the scene of disaster areas offering help without basis of creed? They're views are based on Christian religion, or did I find the first chink in the armor of "It harms people".
Are you going to tell someone on their deathbed, who just confessed his sins that to feel at peace with himself just before death that he's wrong?
Are you going to tell the sixteen year old who just turned his entire life around from drugs and violence because he found faith in God that he's wrong?
Who is doing the harm now? Or is your view somehow still justified because you can't accept that someone still holds a different belief than your own.

1) Charities. Yep. Those are good. It does nothing to prove that God exists. It does nothing to deny all the terrible things that religion does. Am I to think that because some Christians do good things that all of the terrible things that other Christians don't do should just be ignored?

No, but you're blanket statement that "Christianity harms people" suddenly has a quite few holes in it. And it didn't bring it up to prove God exists, just that not all Christians are out to rule the world with evil.

And I also submit that there's just as much harm being perpetuated by those who don't believe in God, as those who do. I'm just not going to put an all consuming blanket statement about it.

[/quote]
3) Turned life around: He didn't do it because of God. He just thinks he did. Let me put it to you this way. Many times in my life, I've had to carry a very heavy object over a very long distance. When I feel like I can't go on any more, I usually get the theme song from Kill Bill Volume 2 going in my head and I keep going. A person who believes in God would say that they got the strength to keep going from Jesus or Allah or whoever. The difference between the two is that I don't think that that Uma Thurman was watching down on me and giving me strength. A person who turns his life around because he "found God" is not giving himself enough credit.
[/quote]

Again, you're working under the mistaken impression that God himself came down and changed said person's life around, I never once said that. I didn't just pull this out of my hat, this is based on someone I know. There's a difference between God turning a person's life around personally (which I never said he did), and taking strength from it.

Excellent. I should tell you, though, that my flying dragon wants you to give it money and mutilate the genitals of your children.

As you yourself said,

You want to believe in God? Fine. It's your right. But just as your right to throw a punch stops at the tip of my nose, your right to practice your religion stops when it hurts other people.

So far, my personal faith and my views have not harmed you personally...other than scrape the blackboard against your own personal world view.

Let me see if I understand you correctly. You don't take The Bible literally? That means that you dismiss some of the claims as purely fantastic and obviously not "literal" but the invisible man in the sky is real? That's about the gist of what you're saying?

Take it for what you will. The fact that I believe in God, does nothing to affect you personally. And that is what grinds you so much, is the fact you want it to so badly.

I have no qualsm against religion. Believe what you want, you're free to do so and I hope it makes you a happier person. Personally, I consider myself agnostic.

But when people begin to repress and harass those not of similar faith, then we have a problem. And not just christianity either; any religion.

A human being is a human being and everyone deserves to be treated fairly and equally. Wasn't that one of the principles our country was based on? And yet I am called unpatriotic and a traitor because I support issues such as Gay marriage and Women's right to choose. I've heard the arguements from the right side on both issues and still ask 'why?'. We're not a dictatorship where there's a country-wide set religion that everyone must follow. We are a nation of mixed religion so why should our laws emulate the religious laws of a single religion? We have a mixing pot here and as such our laws should reflect that.

Christian teachings are all well and good, but what I see around my area resembles propaganda more then religious teachings.


When religion is carried on the proper way, everything is beautiful and happy. Faith is a powerful tool and I've seen the great good that comes from it (the charities and various foundations to help the ill and disabled), but when someone takes advantage or manipulates useing their faith, then we have a problem. And its unfortunate to say, but there seems to be a lot of that.

Neko wrote:I have no qualsm against religion. Believe what you want, you're free to do so and I hope it makes you a happier person. Personally, I consider myself agnostic.

But when people begin to repress and harass those not of similar faith, then we have a problem. And not just christianity either; any religion.

How about when those who do not have a religion suppress those who do? Rarely is this ever addressed.

A human being is a human being and everyone deserves to be treated fairly and equally. Wasn't that one of the principles our country was based on? And yet I am called unpatriotic and a traitor because I support issues such as Gay marriage and Women's right to choose. I've heard the arguements from the right side on both issues and still ask 'why?'. We're not a dictatorship where there's a country-wide set religion that everyone must follow. We are a nation of mixed religion so why should our laws emulate the religious laws of a single religion? We have a mixing pot here and as such our laws should reflect that.

Christian teachings are all well and good, but what I see around my area resembles propaganda more then religious teachings.

Unfortunately, those things happen. Just as vise versa happens as well.
Just to let you know, I believe in God, and I don't call you unpatriotic nor a traitor because you believe in those ideals.

Loki120 wrote:

Neko wrote:I have no qualsm against religion. Believe what you want, you're free to do so and I hope it makes you a happier person. Personally, I consider myself agnostic.

But when people begin to repress and harass those not of similar faith, then we have a problem. And not just christianity either; any religion.

How about when those who do not have a religion suppress those who do? Rarely is this ever addressed.

A human being is a human being and everyone deserves to be treated fairly and equally. Wasn't that one of the principles our country was based on? And yet I am called unpatriotic and a traitor because I support issues such as Gay marriage and Women's right to choose. I've heard the arguements from the right side on both issues and still ask 'why?'. We're not a dictatorship where there's a country-wide set religion that everyone must follow. We are a nation of mixed religion so why should our laws emulate the religious laws of a single religion? We have a mixing pot here and as such our laws should reflect that.

Christian teachings are all well and good, but what I see around my area resembles propaganda more then religious teachings.

Unfortunately, those things happen. Just as vise versa happens as well.
Just to let you know, I believe in God, and I don't call you unpatriotic nor a traitor because you believe in those ideals.

That's nice to hear.

I'd be interested in hearing examples of Atheists trying to "suppress religion."

Professor Smooth wrote:I'd be interested in hearing examples of Atheists trying to "suppress religion."

Just off the top of my head but Communist governments? Pol Pot? China? Stalin and the like?

Granted and then some.

I should have been more clear, though. How about some examples of such things in the west.

Professor Smooth wrote:Granted and then some.

I should have been more clear, though. How about some examples of such things in the west.

Now that is a toughy...

We're quite fortunate in the West it would seem. While walking to the pub the other day my friend and I were discussing oppressionism.

The conversation started with the discussion of a stand up routine about Al Qaeda and China. How in China Islam is illegal, and how overnight people go to a City square stand in front of tanks and then miraculously disappear. Anyway the point of the gag was why don't all these Muslim terrorist factions attack China?

Kinda silly I know, but in essence kind of logical.

As the conversation progressed it was revealed that at any given moment there are 10,000, 10,000 that's right, Chinese Police officers online, monitoring dissidents and the like.

It strikes me if that kind of force was focused a lot better , especially in combination with neat European I.T. techs who find track, trace and log files and sites and then hand the lot over to Interpol. We'd at the very least make significant dent in online child pornography, and maybe bring children like Madeline Mccann and her countless Middle-Eastern counterparts home.

In the words of the eponymous Grant Morrison:

"We are all Policemen now."

Professor Smooth wrote:I'd be interested in hearing examples of Atheists trying to "suppress religion."

It's everywhere. Every political issue in this country has the supporting side and the opposing side (with a few fence sitters sprinkled around).

With the big two of the highlighted issues surrounding the 2008 presdential elections, being Gay rights and Abortion, the oppositon to the issue has someway to do with religion or religious teachings.

Many of the supporters are generally people who want to supress the religious laws so any opposition to the issue would be inarguable and couldn't stand by itself.

Neko wrote:

Professor Smooth wrote:I'd be interested in hearing examples of Atheists trying to "suppress religion."

It's everywhere. Every political issue in this country has the supporting side and the opposing side (with a few fence sitters sprinkled around).

With the big two of the highlighted issues surrounding the 2008 presdential elections, being Gay rights and Abortion, the oppositon to the issue has someway to do with religion or religious teachings.

Many of the supporters are generally people who want to supress the religious laws so any opposition to the issue would be inarguable and couldn't stand by itself.

I'm not trying to come off as snarky here, but if arguing for people to have the right to choose to marry who they want and decide what to do with their own bodies is suppressing religion in your country, then I'm glad I'm in Japan.

Disagreeing on politics is different from "suppressing religion." Atheists aren't trying to keep people from going to church, celebrating religious holidays, or observing their religion. Most of the more vocal ones simply do not want to have to live their lives (or educate their children) based on religious doctrine, especially when said doctrine contradicts the real world.

You know, all this talk about how Christ was all about mercy and forgiveness got me to pull out my copy of the The Bible.

I direct you to Luke 19:27, a quote from Jesus Christ:

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay [them] before me.

Such a peaceful and loving man, that Jesus.