The Energon Pub

Obviously I don't really know anything about how the weapons system in HMW is programmed, but I was having a few thoughts about how it might be done to clean it up.

I know currently we have a large list of fixed weapons, each with its own recharge rate, range of potential damage, prerequisite stats and cost etc. And I know there's always talk about adding new ones to the list, or why certain weapons are graded as they are (I know, I've been guilty of that one).

I just wondered if this might make it easier and cleaner - it's not extensively planned, and it's probably already been thought of, dissected and thrown out, but hell, if I don't ask, I don't find out. And if it looks rambly, I'm sorry; I'm sort of thinking as I type.


How about, rather than a huge list of fixed weapons, there is instead, a small range of weapon types, with upgrades to buy on top.
Basic categorisation would be between melee weapons and firearms. Obviously this can theoretically be further subcategorised into standard and powered melee weapons, energy weapons, heat and flame weapons, acid, explosives etc - whether these would be separate weapons or whether they'd be determined by upgrades, I don't know which'd be cleaner. The type of weapon purchased would determine the base damage range and recharge rate.

The character buys a weapon of the type required by the player, but the effectiveness of the weapon depends mostly on the stats of the wielder (FPR, SPD and possibly INT for firearms, SKL, SPD and STR for melee), and the amount of energon spent on improving the weapon. To prevent someone with a lot of energon buying an overkill weapon, the amount you can spend could be capped depending on the FPR or SKL of the owner.

As regards naming the weapon, in order to keep it characterful, how about providing a field box alongside the name and motto, then the player can call it what they like? There could possibly be a drop-down list of canon names to select, for those who want to choose an existing weapon or don't know what to call it.

Thoughts?

Ramrider wrote:Obviously I don't really know anything about how the weapons system in HMW is programmed, but I was having a few thoughts about how it might be done to clean it up.

I know currently we have a large list of fixed weapons, each with its own recharge rate, range of potential damage, prerequisite stats and cost etc. And I know there's always talk about adding new ones to the list, or why certain weapons are graded as they are (I know, I've been guilty of that one).

I just wondered if this might make it easier and cleaner - it's not extensively planned, and it's probably already been thought of, dissected and thrown out, but hell, if I don't ask, I don't find out. And if it looks rambly, I'm sorry; I'm sort of thinking as I type.


How about, rather than a huge list of fixed weapons, there is instead, a small range of weapon types, with upgrades to buy on top.
Basic categorisation would be between melee weapons and firearms. Obviously this can theoretically be further subcategorised into standard and powered melee weapons, energy weapons, heat and flame weapons, acid, explosives etc - whether these would be separate weapons or whether they'd be determined by upgrades, I don't know which'd be cleaner. The type of weapon purchased would determine the base damage range and recharge rate.

The character buys a weapon of the type required by the player, but the effectiveness of the weapon depends mostly on the stats of the wielder (FPR, SPD and possibly INT for firearms, SKL, SPD and STR for melee), and the amount of energon spent on improving the weapon. To prevent someone with a lot of energon buying an overkill weapon, the amount you can spend could be capped depending on the FPR or SKL of the owner.

As regards naming the weapon, in order to keep it characterful, how about providing a field box alongside the name and motto, then the player can call it what they like? There could possibly be a drop-down list of canon names to select, for those who want to choose an existing weapon or don't know what to call it.

Thoughts?

I already pitched this idea in the planning forum, as it has been suggested many times in the past 4 years, but Tammuz and I agreed that it is really too complicated to execute. OS hasn't ruled on it though.

I have also lobbied for the possibility of custom weapons as tournament prizes in v2 however. That seems more feasible.

I say vastly scale down on the number of weapons. Have one or two for each combination of Skill and Firepower. Then, divide them into melee and ranged weapons. They each have a set base damage amount, but melee weapons become more powerful with more Strength behind them, and ranged weapons become more powerful with more Firepower behind them.

Caelus wrote:I already pitched this idea in the planning forum, as it has been suggested many times in the past 4 years, but Tammuz and I agreed that it is really too complicated to execute. OS hasn't ruled on it though.

I have also lobbied for the possibility of custom weapons as tournament prizes in v2 however. That seems more feasible.

Fair enough. I figured that'd be the case, but I thought it was worth bringing up.

It's a pity, though, if only from the aspect of characterisation. Since many created characters have a 'signature weapon', like (from my own examples) Twitch's sniper rifle or Whiteburn's flamethrowers, it's a shame that the weapon actually used in combat is usually something entirely different, either because the stated weapon doesn't exist, is too expensive, or is too ineffective and has been outgrown.


I think the field box alone would help this - as the name box defines the name used in every instance required, so a similar box for the weapon name would make the reports reflect the characters better (and I'm pretty sure I haven't quite said what I meant, but I imagine you get my meaning).

'Course then there'd be the problem of how to differentiate between all the different weapons stats without having names assigned to them.


Here's an alternative thought. What if the weapon system remains as it stands (or changes as much as you're already intending to), but the field box is added to the Character profile as an option?
The weapon selected from the armoury is still displayed as normal in the weapon inventory dropdown, but on the character's displayed profile and in battle reports, any name typed into the field box overrides it.
That way, if you're happy with your 'laser pistol' as it stands, then that's what it'll be called in the reports. But if you want to call it a "Mega-Death Frap Ray" (for example), then you just put it into the box and it replaces the stock name.


[EDIT] And actually, JP, that's more or less what I was suggesting... a handful of weapons upgraded by stat increase.

Jesus Prime wrote:... and ranged weapons become more powerful with more Firepower behind them.

I believe OS has gone on record as saying that he doesn't believe that ranged weapons (at least) should have a feeder stat to increase their damage.

I could be wrong, though.

Thunderscream wrote:

Jesus Prime wrote:... and ranged weapons become more powerful with more Firepower behind them.

I believe OS has gone on record as saying that he doesn't believe that ranged weapons (at least) should have a feeder stat to increase their damage.

I could be wrong, though.

if he's thinking there's no justification for it, imagine it's that higher Firepower allows for better aiming and a more well-placed shot. 10 Firepower, good weapon - headshot!

That seems like one good way of looking at it...

say you get to name your transformer's weapon choose whether its ranged or melee and upgrade it for evey point of skill(enhancing melee power/accuracy/recharge, you choose one or two for every point) and/or firepower(increasing ranged power/accuracy/recharge).

I dont see that being any more complicated than anything else that already in there.

the weapon is almost an extention of the transformer, it should be treated as such.

Jesus Prime wrote:if he's thinking there's no justification for it, imagine it's that higher Firepower allows for better aiming and a more well-placed shot. 10 Firepower, good weapon - headshot!

Somehow, I see Skill as a better fit in that regard.

Thunderscream wrote:

Jesus Prime wrote:if he's thinking there's no justification for it, imagine it's that higher Firepower allows for better aiming and a more well-placed shot. 10 Firepower, good weapon - headshot!

Somehow, I see Skill as a better fit in that regard.

So make no distinction, and have Skill boost all weapons.

GreenLantern of Cybertron wrote:say you get to name your transformer's weapon choose whether its ranged or melee and upgrade it for evey point of skill(enhancing melee power/accuracy/recharge, you choose one or two for every point) and/or firepower(increasing ranged power/accuracy/recharge).

I dont see that being any more complicated than anything else that already in there.

the weapon is almost an extention of the transformer, it should be treated as such.

Sounds about the ticket.

just concentrate on battle blades since its the only weapon people give a **** about

Okay, in the interest of keeping you guys in the loop, here is where we are now:

1) Tammuz has designed a system that mathematically balances the weapons, so no single weapon should be 'broken'. That's not to say that some won't be superior to others, just that if you want big booms you're going to have to pump the xp into firepower and skill.

2) It looks like there will be some sort of distinction between ranged and melee weapons. Tammuz and I debated this a fair bit, and he eventually won out. I was trying to be to realistic, which was "nerfing" the melee weapons, but he pointed out that that would suck a lot of fun from the game. There will still be some difference, though neither will be better than the other.

3) If you want to know how many weapons there are going to be, consider how many possible combinations you have of firepower (0-10), skill (0-10), and the various recharge times (6sec-60sec I think). So, quite a few.

4) The names could be arbitrarily assigned to the weapons at this point, but I don't want to do it that way, so, when I have time here and there, I'm working on a weapon-hierarchy to use in assigning names to grades. So far I have the ranged weapons sorted into various categories: Sling/Bow, Lasers, Pistols, Guns, Shotguns, Rifles, Blasters, Cannons, Rocket Launchers, and Missile Launchers.

If noone would object to me slightly altering some of the weapon names, I could narrow down the categories; Divide the "Lasers" category amongst the pistols, guns, rifles, and cannons, so the Double Venom Lasers would be Double Venom Laser Pistols. On the otherhand, some may like the ambiguity of the name as it is. Also, some of the names are a tad redundant, and I'd personally be in favor of cutting the fat to make room for other canon names, and things like "Battle Rifle", "Metallikito Sword", "Recoiless Rifle", "Cosmic Rust Dagger", etc.

Back on topic, I want each of the categories to be somehow represented at each 'level' of play. So once I work out the category hierarchy, I'll move onto a hierarchy within the categorys, then merge the two and present that list to Tammuz. Hopefully all that can get plugged into the system without a problem.

6) I'm hoping to eventually add a weapons-glossary to the HMW Help page. I'd like it to have links to the VSD sources of each weapon, which we are well on the way to managing via that weapons-list thread you guys contributed to (I'm hoping to finishing updating that tonight, at which point I'll bump the thread). I'd also like it to possibly have fan written paragraph-long descriptions of various weapons in the game just for fun. For that purpose, I'm planning on resurrecting the armory thread later to collect contributions.

7) Now that OS is finished with the Minicons, he'll be moving onto the weapons, which means I'm on crunch time now to get my part done.

I always liked the idea of like 220 (I think thats the number of possiable FP SK combos, and allowing us to skin them as we set fit, (aka names and discriptions,) and making FP the damage upgrade and SK the thac0 modifyer......or the amount of armor it negated then we would all be happy, and the problem of the game keeping track of 5 billion weapons is solved!

Sounds like were in safe hands for V2. Nice work!

Caelus wrote:4) The names could be arbitrarily assigned to the weapons at this point, but I don't want to do it that way, so, when I have time here and there, I'm working on a weapon-hierarchy to use in assigning names to grades. So far I have the ranged weapons sorted into various categories: Sling/Bow, Lasers, Pistols, Guns, Shotguns, Rifles, Blasters, Cannons, Rocket Launchers, and Missile Launchers.

If noone would object to me slightly altering some of the weapon names, I could narrow down the categories; Divide the "Lasers" category amongst the pistols, guns, rifles, and cannons, so the Double Venom Lasers would be Double Venom Laser Pistols. On the otherhand, some may like the ambiguity of the name as it is. Also, some of the names are a tad redundant, and I'd personally be in favor of cutting the fat to make room for other canon names, and things like "Battle Rifle", "Metallikito Sword", "Recoiless Rifle", "Cosmic Rust Dagger", etc.

Any chance of weapons from outside the Transformers universe appearing?

JP Lite wrote:

Caelus wrote:4) The names could be arbitrarily assigned to the weapons at this point, but I don't want to do it that way, so, when I have time here and there, I'm working on a weapon-hierarchy to use in assigning names to grades. So far I have the ranged weapons sorted into various categories: Sling/Bow, Lasers, Pistols, Guns, Shotguns, Rifles, Blasters, Cannons, Rocket Launchers, and Missile Launchers.

If noone would object to me slightly altering some of the weapon names, I could narrow down the categories; Divide the "Lasers" category amongst the pistols, guns, rifles, and cannons, so the Double Venom Lasers would be Double Venom Laser Pistols. On the otherhand, some may like the ambiguity of the name as it is. Also, some of the names are a tad redundant, and I'd personally be in favor of cutting the fat to make room for other canon names, and things like "Battle Rifle", "Metallikito Sword", "Recoiless Rifle", "Cosmic Rust Dagger", etc.

Any chance of weapons from outside the Transformers universe appearing?

If it were up to me, there certainly would be. There are a lot of HMW Players that are also Star Wars, Star Trek, Halo, etc. fans, and it seems fair that if we have a TIE Fighter, we should also have a Lightsaber.

As yet, it remains undecided though AFAIK.

Caelus wrote:and it seems fair that if we have a TIE Fighter, we should also have a Lightsaber.

why not, they have them in the gundam series, plus megatron clearly uses a lightsaber type weapon in the animated movie

Caelus wrote:

JP Lite wrote:

Caelus wrote:4) The names could be arbitrarily assigned to the weapons at this point, but I don't want to do it that way, so, when I have time here and there, I'm working on a weapon-hierarchy to use in assigning names to grades. So far I have the ranged weapons sorted into various categories: Sling/Bow, Lasers, Pistols, Guns, Shotguns, Rifles, Blasters, Cannons, Rocket Launchers, and Missile Launchers.

If noone would object to me slightly altering some of the weapon names, I could narrow down the categories; Divide the "Lasers" category amongst the pistols, guns, rifles, and cannons, so the Double Venom Lasers would be Double Venom Laser Pistols. On the otherhand, some may like the ambiguity of the name as it is. Also, some of the names are a tad redundant, and I'd personally be in favor of cutting the fat to make room for other canon names, and things like "Battle Rifle", "Metallikito Sword", "Recoiless Rifle", "Cosmic Rust Dagger", etc.

Any chance of weapons from outside the Transformers universe appearing?

If it were up to me, there certainly would be. There are a lot of HMW Players that are also Star Wars, Star Trek, Halo, etc. fans, and it seems fair that if we have a TIE Fighter, we should also have a Lightsaber.

As yet, it remains undecided though AFAIK.

I hear 100,000 as the number of possible weapon combinations with the new system. Even 1000 is more than the number of canon weapons, so we're going to need to stick our thumbs in some more pies.

JP Lite wrote:Any chance of weapons from outside the Transformers universe appearing?

I'd rather not. It's a Transformers game. Myself and Seibs want to keep it as close to Transformers canon as possible.

Omega Sentinel wrote:

JP Lite wrote:Any chance of weapons from outside the Transformers universe appearing?

I'd rather not. It's a Transformers game. Myself and Seibs want to keep it as close to Transformers canon as possible.

Transformers canon includes the Spiderman universe, which is linked with all the Marvel world, and subsequently, anything which has been featured in a Marvel comic. It also contains our world, which would allow for real-world weaponry, too.
[/smart ass]

JP Lite wrote:

Omega Sentinel wrote:

JP Lite wrote:Any chance of weapons from outside the Transformers universe appearing?

I'd rather not. It's a Transformers game. Myself and Seibs want to keep it as close to Transformers canon as possible.

Transformers canon includes the Spiderman universe, which is linked with all the Marvel world, and subsequently, anything which has been featured in a Marvel comic. It also contains our world, which would allow for real-world weaponry, too.
[/smart ass]

That's a good point. I'm open to different things if they can logically fit without confusing newcomers.
But I don't want to start adding Galaxy Class Starships just because people like Star Trek. That just doesn't fit.

Omega Sentinel wrote:

JP Lite wrote:

Omega Sentinel wrote:

JP Lite wrote:Any chance of weapons from outside the Transformers universe appearing?

I'd rather not. It's a Transformers game. Myself and Seibs want to keep it as close to Transformers canon as possible.

Transformers canon includes the Spiderman universe, which is linked with all the Marvel world, and subsequently, anything which has been featured in a Marvel comic. It also contains our world, which would allow for real-world weaponry, too.
[/smart ass]

That's a good point. I'm open to different things if they can logically fit without confusing newcomers.
But I don't want to start adding Galaxy Class Starships just because people like Star Trek. That just doesn't fit.

While I do want to see some things from other films or fictional worlds, I think most new players would probably understand if their transformers could use an RPG-7 or a Heckler & Koch PSG1, which have the benefits of being well known through popular video games.

Well, Transformers has a crossover to Avengers, which has a connection to X-men, which had a crossover with Star Trek

Yep, I think there's no known universe the Marvel universe (the twenty-something universes of Marvel ) doesn't connect to, and Tf has ties with Marvel.

Chaoslock wrote:Well, Transformers has a crossover to Avengers, which has a connection to X-men, which had a crossover with Star Trek

I should make Kevin Bacon an alt mode.