The Energon Pub

Damolisher wrote:And you prove how completely ignorant you are AGAIN! There IS no thread subscribing here, dumbarse. And even if there was, I wouldn't be subscribed to this. You're only telling me to go because once again, I'm right. This discussion is over, you lose, much like you do in every day life!

Damolisher, there is a little tag at the bottom obf the page that says "stop watching this topic". All you need to do is click on that.

Yeah, that's not subscribing. That's an automatic function. You lose.

Regardless, no one ios forcing you to participate. IF you get emails about this topic just delete them. You don't have to read this thread.

Damolisher I got another PM about this thread..
If you don't like a thread or it's contents instead of starting a fight just hit the little back button.

This is your second warning today.. You reach 3 and it's a 3 day board suspension.

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*SIgh* Fair enough. It just take offense to being spoken to like a child.

So, let's hear some other theories.

We all know that the first 13 Transformers we created by Primus. Given that they were a technological race right from the very start, there is absolutely no reason for them to reproduce sexually as the other established methods are far more efficient and create more diversity in the species. (Transformers are all different, there is no evidence to suggest that any Transformer is a combination of genetic material from two parental units - ie a transformer that looks like a cross between mom and dad.)

The whole sexual reproduction theory rests on at least one of the first 13 transformers being female - otherwise it makes no sense.

slycherrychunks wrote:We all know that the first 13 Transformers we created by Primus. Given that they were a technological race right from the very start, there is absolutely no reason for them to reproduce sexually as the other established methods are far more efficient and create more diversity in the species. (Transformers are all different, there is no evidence to suggest that any Transformer is a combination of genetic material from two parental units - ie a transformer that looks like a cross between mom and dad.)

The whole sexual reproduction theory rests on at least one of the first 13 transformers being female - otherwise it makes no sense.

Well, considering that we only know the identities of five or six of them to begin with, it is quite possible that there mere females among them. The known members of the Original 13 are: Alpha Trion, Vector Prime, The Fallen, Liege Maximo, Prima, and the owner of MaCaddams Old Oil House. One possible member is Beta, from the G1 cartoons. She should be as old as Alpha Trion, so she could be a member of the Original 13. If that is the case, then we do have at least one female among its members.

Also, sexual reproduction really is the best method for ensuring genetic diversity. Asexual reproduction produces exact copies of the parent, and only spontaneous mutation would result in differences. That is not a good way to create genetic diversity, and really only works for very simple organisms. Biulding protoforms also is not true reproduction. It isn't autpoietic. It isn't creating new life from your own body. It isn't procreation. It's Allopoietic—creating something from outside means and outside sources. The equivalent for us would be cloning.

Woo! Sorry to create such feud. My friends and I were discussing the same subject and could not agree on specific method, so I posted this to see if we could find any other theories that could help us out. I think that it happens like this: Two robots of different 'genders', you know, the whole binary thing, contribute fractions of their spark to create a new spark. Each spark is unique, and has within it a unique energy signature, like a genetic code. The base compound of all Transformers is a metal that can assume a liquid form, like in Terminator 2, and reacts to the signature of a spark. The spark itself might even be the metal itself, in energy form, like the Allspark. When the spark is created, it surrounds itself in a liquid metal shell, which then assumes a new form as dictated by the spark's code, and then returns to a solid form, creating the robot's body. The spark is then hidden safely within the robot, and will only cause the robot's form to shift to a liquid state if the spark is threatened or diminished somehow. Exposure to the energies from the Matrix can cause this as well, resulting in a sort of evolution as the robot's body is reshaped. Each spark is unique, and a robot's metal components can only be altered by his own spark as its 'genetic' code sees fit. I think that robot evolution would require the simplest and most efficient form of creating a spark, therefore the process would be a ritual of bonding, and would be a more spiritual or metaphysical union than physical, as the robots are joining their very essences, their energies, rather than mechanical components.

Tramp wrote:Also, sexual reproduction really is the best method for ensuring genetic diversity. Asexual reproduction produces exact copies of the parent, and only spontaneous mutation would result in differences. That is not a good way to create genetic diversity, and really only works for very simple organisms. Biulding protoforms also is not true reproduction. It isn't autpoietic. It isn't creating new life from your own body. It isn't procreation. It's Allopoietic—creating something from outside means and outside sources. The equivalent for us would be cloning.

I dont buy that. If the technology is there to create a new TF from the ground up, then the scope for diversity is much greater - and the "manufacturers" could do a much better job of ironing out defects and vulnerabilities than evolution ever could.

Also - as the combined wisdom/experience of all TFs is returned to the AllSpark/Matrix, there is a far greater bank of genetic material to draw from than any two parental units could contribute.

What about spark merging? It happend to Tigertron and Airazor. And its also shown with Blackarachnia and Silverbolt which implies that it is their own form of sex.

Kinda like that idea though, it implies that Transformers connect on a spiritual level too.

Transformers do it like lobsters. I'll leave the rest to your imagination.
BigDaddy776

My Theory:
Transformers have only one gender. The creation of a new Transformer occurs in two stages, both are interchangeable.
One stage is the programme stage and one is the the body stage.

During the programme stage one or more robots create a new programme, commonly from modules of their own programme code, although great care has to be taken, that all modules will properly work together. Programme errors may result in inoperable or insane Transformers.

The programme may be written on a non-sentient computer system (like we do) or via interfacing directly on a Transformer's computer system, in some instances a new programme is a copy or update of an already existing programme. A completed programme is stored till an appropriate body is found or created (you don't install a Seeker programme into a submarine-based body). The programme is than compiled directly into the new body.

In some cases the body already exists and a programme is created especially for it.


Did I mention that I don't like the whole Spark idea.

slycherrychunks wrote:

Tramp wrote:Also, sexual reproduction really is the best method for ensuring genetic diversity. Asexual reproduction produces exact copies of the parent, and only spontaneous mutation would result in differences. That is not a good way to create genetic diversity, and really only works for very simple organisms. Biulding protoforms also is not true reproduction. It isn't autpoietic. It isn't creating new life from your own body. It isn't procreation. It's Allopoietic—creating something from outside means and outside sources. The equivalent for us would be cloning.

I dont buy that. If the technology is there to create a new TF from the ground up, then the scope for diversity is much greater - and the "manufacturers" could do a much better job of ironing out defects and vulnerabilities than evolution ever could.

Also - as the combined wisdom/experience of all TFs is returned to the AllSpark/Matrix, there is a far greater bank of genetic material to draw from than any two parental units could contribute.

Not quite. The spark itself doesn't contain the genetic material. The body does. The Spark is the life force. And really, sexual reproduction is the most effective natural method of creating genetic diversity for a couple of reasons. First off, It is the combination of genetic material from two sources. Secondly, the genetc material is a cocktail, and never the same twice. Thus, it creates genetically unique offspring with random traits inherited from its parents. And the whole point of reproduction is continuation of the species through passing on of your genes. That is one of the main purposes in life.

Sarri wrote:My Theory:
Transformers have only one gender. The creation of a new Transformer occurs in two stages, both are interchangeable.
One stage is the programme stage and one is the the body stage.

During the programme stage one or more robots create a new programme, commonly from modules of their own programme code, although great care has to be taken, that all modules will properly work together. Programme errors may result in inoperable or insane Transformers.

The programme may be written on a non-sentient computer system (like we do) or via interfacing directly on a Transformer's computer system, in some instances a new programme is a copy or update of an already existing programme. A completed programme is stored till an appropriate body is found or created (you don't install a Seeker programme into a submarine-based body). The programme is than compiled directly into the new body.

In some cases the body already exists and a programme is created especially for it.


Did I mention that I don't like the whole Spark idea.

Well that basically makes them "just" robots, not life forms anymore. And that is not what TransFormers are. ThransFormers are living beings. They aren't "just" robots. TransFormers aren't programmed. Their personalites develop naturally. You may not like the idea of Sparks, but it is a part of TF canon.

Tramp wrote:Well that basically makes them "just" robots, not life forms anymore. And that is not what TransFormers are. ThransFormers are living beings.

I have no problems with Transformers being living beings and robots. I also have no problems with taking humans as robots (read Cyteen). Artifical creation of body and mind aren't a sign that the result isn't alive.

TransFormers aren't programmed.

The Cartoon showed something different.

Their personalites develop naturally.

Define naturally.

You may not like the idea of Sparks, but it is a part of TF canon.

Not in the parts I have seen and which, therefore, are the canon I know.

Tramp wrote:Not quite. The spark itself doesn't contain the genetic material. The body does. The Spark is the life force.

This hangs on whether you believe the knowledge/wisdom/experience contained within the Allspark/Matrix to be the actual genetic material you speak of.
Instincts are passed on through genetics and some argue that personality traits are too. As far as I'm concerned, this "wisdom" is the so-called genetic material that TFs supposedly have.

Sexual reproduction may the best natural way to acheive genetic diversity, But I'm not talking about natural ways - and neither is anyone else in this thread. TFs do not occur in nature. As stated above, they were a technological race to begin with and the first ones were created. They did not evolve from lesser lifeforms or single celled amoeba.

If the technology is there to build a TF from the ground up, ie - select every genetic trait at will from the vast collective that is the allspark, that would bve more efficient and effective than random samples from two parental units. Also, there would be no need for 'randomness' to confuse those pesky little viruses when a genetic code can be tailored to meet a specific need ie - resist desease. We already know that Shockwave did this.

Building TFs from the ground up this way does not constitute asexual reproduction or cloning. It is more akin to genetic engineering.

Look, Tramp, this is a losing argument, alright? Your basis is that Transformers "Must" sexually reproduce because they're a "Lifeform." That's ridiculously close-minded, and whatever the original writer wnats them to be, they are. Transformers are, first and formost, machines made for fighting. Well, they turned into machines for fighting. Originally, the were either slave goods and military hardware, or just a disguise for Primus, based on whch continuity of G1 you follow. Females don't just have to be there for breeding, and if you think they are, THAT'S just downright sexist. Tramp, your problem is you look at everything from a "Scientifically possible" point of view, which is pretty weak when you consider you're watching a kids' cartoon, or reading a comic aimed at an audience of fans who just watch Transformers for Transformers.

Take DragonBall Z. Nameks and Saibaimen are "Lifeforms" who don't breed, yet are still very much alive. Therefore, Akira Toriyama hasn't followed these 'guidelines' of yours, and has made one of the most popular cartoons of all-time. Same with Transformers.

Not everyone is a science nerd, so not everyone knows of your so-called laws. You once said something about suspension of disbelief, newsflash: Kids don't know jack about science.

Oh, and BTW, once again, we see them built, which is obviously the only was they're made outside of the G2 comic, and until it's stated pointblank they're "Born" (Yeah, that's gonna happen. Not.) , they clearly aren't. You'd think Simon Furman or someone would've made an official statement on this sort of thing, ESPECIALLY in the Ultimate Guide, which is meant to contain everything about Trasnformers.

Damolisher wrote:You'd think Simon Furman or someone would've made an official statement on this sort of thing, ESPECIALLY in the Ultimate Guide, which is meant to contain everything about Trasnformers.

they cant write about something in the diffinitive ultimate guide, that hasnt actually been properly addressed, as most (if not all) of the writers skirt around (or avoid) the subject. So actually whether they can or can not hasnt actually been decided by the people who define TF!

Sarri wrote:

Tramp wrote:Well that basically makes them "just" robots, not life forms anymore. And that is not what TransFormers are. TransFormers are living beings.

I have no problems with Transformers being living beings and robots. I also have no problems with taking humans as robots (read Cyteen). Artifical creation of body and mind aren't a sign that the result isn't alive.

Actually, yes it is.

TransFormers aren't programmed.

The Cartoon showed something different.

No, it didn't. Their personalities developed spontaniously. They weren't programmed with them. Their skills, they learned. They weren't programmed with them.

Their personalites develop naturally.

Define naturally.

Natural development is spontaneous and through learning, not through data programmed in by another individual. The Dinobots certainly weren't programmed with those personalities. They developed them all on their own. The Arielbot Silverbolt wasn't programmed with a fear of heights, it is just part of his personality.

You may not like the idea of Sparks, but it is a part of TF canon.

Not in the parts I have seen and which, therefore, are the canon I know.

The concept of Sparks was first introduced in Beast Wars and has been a consistant part of TF lore since, even in the newer G1 comics by Dreamwave, and IDW, and the new live action movie.

slycherrychunks wrote:

Tramp wrote:Not quite. The spark itself doesn't contain the genetic material. The body does. The Spark is the life force.

This hangs on whether you believe the knowledge/wisdom/experience contained within the Allspark/Matrix to be the actual genetic material you speak of.
Instincts are passed on through genetics and some argue that personality traits are too. As far as I'm concerned, this "wisdom" is the so-called genetic material that TFs supposedly have.

Sexual reproduction may the best natural way to acheive genetic diversity, But I'm not talking about natural ways - and neither is anyone else in this thread. TFs do not occur in nature. As stated above, they were a technological race to begin with and the first ones were created. They did not evolve from lesser lifeforms or single celled amoeba.

If the technology is there to build a TF from the ground up, ie - select every genetic trait at will from the vast collective that is the allspark, that would bve more efficient and effective than random samples from two parental units. Also, there would be no need for 'randomness' to confuse those pesky little viruses when a genetic code can be tailored to meet a specific need ie - resist desease. We already know that Shockwave did this.

Building TFs from the ground up this way does not constitute asexual reproduction or cloning. It is more akin to genetic engineering.

TransFormers were created by a god, not by another race of beings. They were created by Primus in his own image. That is a key difference. Some Cybertronians believe that they were indeed the product of evolution as a result of atechnogenesis—the beief that mechanical life sprung from nothingness, much like organic life is believed to have sprung from primordial pools of amino acids according to many, or by God according to others. They have an entire ecosystem on their world based on mechanical life.
Either way, they did develop naturally, not through being invented by organic beings.

And, yes, we know Shockwave engaged in experiments on TransFormers to create new varieties much like we tamper with genetic engineering of animals and plants. He is also rather twisted. Also, selectively choosing genetic traits may be the "height if science" to some, but it is also playing god, and not very ethical. And while that might not be an issue with someone like Shockwave. It would definately be for Autobots. It also does not really promote true genetic diversity nor evolution. More often than not, it promotes conformity and standardization. That is why, even though most TFs during G1 are created from Protoforms imbued with a Spark, in most cases, they don't use a preset schematic, but rather, let the protoform format itself naturally.

Sexual Reproduction guarantees genetic diversity.

Damolisher wrote:Look, Tramp, this is a losing argument, alright? Your basis is that Transformers "Must" sexually reproduce because they're a "Lifeform." That's ridiculously close-minded, and whatever the original writer wnats them to be, they are. Transformers are, first and formost, machines made for fighting. Well, they turned into machines for fighting. Originally, the were either slave goods and military hardware, or just a disguise for Primus, based on whch continuity of G1 you follow. Females don't just have to be there for breeding, and if you think they are, THAT'S just downright sexist. Tramp, your problem is you look at everything from a "Scientifically possible" point of view, which is pretty weak when you consider you're watching a kids' cartoon, or reading a comic aimed at an audience of fans who just watch Transformers for Transformers.

Damolisher, genders only serve a reproductive function. The very fact that there are both males and females shows reproductive capability. Secondly, they weren't disguises for Primus, they were the custodians and operators of his planetary systems. The custodians of his body—the planet Cybertron.

Take DragonBall Z. Nameks and Saibaimen are "Lifeforms" who don't breed, yet are still very much alive. Therefore, Akira Toriyama hasn't followed these 'guidelines' of yours, and has made one of the most popular cartoons of all-time. Same with Transformers.

Actually, the Nameks do reproduce. They just do so asexually. The Saibamen are plants sprung from seeds. The seeds hcome from somewhere.

Not everyone is a science nerd, so not everyone knows of your so-called laws. You once said something about suspension of disbelief, newsflash: Kids don't know jack about science.

No, but they do instinctively know what life is, even if they cannot articulate the concept.

Oh, and BTW, once again, we see them built, which is obviously the only was they're made outside of the G2 comic, and until it's stated pointblank they're "Born" (Yeah, that's gonna happen. Not.) , they clearly aren't. You'd think Simon Furman or someone would've made an official statement on this sort of thing, ESPECIALLY in the Ultimate Guide, which is meant to contain everything about Trasnformers.

Yes, we do see them built, but we also know that other methods exist besides building them, and that is what this thread is about. Theories of how those [b]other methods[/b work. In particular, how sexual reproduction might work.

ThunderThruster wrote:

Damolisher wrote:You'd think Simon Furman or someone would've made an official statement on this sort of thing, ESPECIALLY in the Ultimate Guide, which is meant to contain everything about Trasnformers.

they cant write about something in the diffinitive ultimate guide, that hasnt actually been properly addressed, as most (if not all) of the writers skirt around (or avoid) the subject. So actually whether they can or can not hasnt actually been decided by the people who define TF!

Exactly. There are hints all over the place, evidence that suggests they may be capable, but nothing specifically states it one way or the other. They also couldn't even if they wanted to because to show something like TFs mating would not be appropriate for children. Therefore, to play it safe, they don't deal with the subject directly. We know one method that they do use, but we also knwo that other possible methods exist. Those methods could very well include sexual reproduction, and the fact that they have genders, engage in courtship, romantic rivalries, marriage, and have families, strongly supports this possibility.
Regardless, this thread isn't about debating whether or not it is possible for them to reproduce sexually. It is discussing how it would work if it is possible.

:MAD: How many times do I need to bloody say it! There are no other ways! They've all been addressed, and I'd think the reason it's never brought up by authors is because they didn't think anyone would be dumb enough to think they could do anything sexually. They can't do anything sexually because they're bloody machines and they aren't programmed to, and it isn't necessary AT ALL, because they're built from raw materials!

Damolisher wrote::MAD::MAD: How many times do I need to bloody say it! There are no other ways! They've all been addressed, and I'd think the reason it's never brought up by authors is because they didn't think anyone would be dumb enough to think they could do anything sexually. They can't do anything sexually because they're bloody machines and they aren't programmed to, and it isn't necessary AT ALL, because they're built from raw materials!

Damolisher, TransFormers: More than Meets the Eye #8 specifically states that, "It is believed that Cybertronians have other untapped potential for creating new life, but it is unclear what missing components are necessary to complete this system." The key phrase here is other untapped potential. The book clearly states flat out that factory-built protoforms imbued with a spark is not the only method of creating new TransFormer life. It is the primary method, yes, but there are other methods.

Also, just because TransFormers are mechanical based does not preclude them from reproducing sexually. There is no reason why they can't utilize nano-machine gametes, each containing half of the genetic code from each parent, and merge them to produce a single self-replicating body that could then grow and develop into a new Cybertronian life, complete with its own spark. Secondly, TransFormers aren't programmed. They learn and develop their own personalities. IT isn't "downloaded" into them during construction. Their personalities are a result of their sparks, not any programming. You don't program a living being. You teach it. IT's personality grows and develops over time based upon their environment and their genetics, based upon their soul. That is probably the biggest difference between you and me. You see the TransFormers as simply autonomous robots. I see them as living beings; as true life forms.

Oh, Jesus Bloody Christ, here we go again! Look, MTMTE ONLY APPLIES TO THE BLOODY DREAMWAVE CONTINUITY FOR THE 80TH BLOODY TIME! And Transformers must not be living, SINCE THEY ARE PROGRAMMED! You clearly have never bothred to pick up the Marvel G1 comics, because if you did, there is constant reference to being PROGRAMMED by the Creation Matrix. Dinobots in G1 Cartoon? Ratchet and Wheeljack programmed them with the brains of dinosaurs. They reprogram them to become more intelligent. Brawl? Personality component. Programming has been frequently shown in the goddamn comics and cartoon. Stop cherry picking for crying out loud. Bloody aren't programmed. How badly can one person be clutching at Straws?

And For God's Sake, you don't need to start every post with "Damolisher, blah, blah, blah." You just quoted my post, I think it's disturbingly obvious who you're talking to. And I don't give a rat's arse what an out-of-date, no longer official set of guidebooks says. Untapped potential is obviously a nod to the ending of Beast Machines, and Untapped obviously means they haven't been able to do it yet. Duh. You're obviously avoiding that blantantly clear meaning to try and sway your argument. Nice try. Do you know what untapped means?

And another difference between you and me is I can tell Michael Bay's movies aren't G1, and I can accept Soundwave as something else, but that's not the point, the point here is you're wrong, and you're delibrately ignoring all prior Transformers lore before Dreamwave wrote their own continuity, except for one Manga which no-one counts as canon but you and a handful of Japanese, (Non-Canon because none of the characters exist over here.) and a throw away law which doesn't have to apply to a cartoon.