The Energon Pub

ThunderThruster wrote:back to topic! the one which assumes they can mate, not if they can or cannot, just if they can, how?



does anyone else have any theories on how TFs mate?

Well, I've already given mine, but I can reiterate it.
They utilize interfaces, a plug-like nozzel on the male interfaces with a recepticle on the female. The male releases nanite gametes into the female one of which merges with a nanite "egg" in the female which combines their genetic codes and fragments of their sparks. This then grows into new life.

That wouldn't happen. Transformers never show any signs of Genitalia, and you'd think somewhere, it would've been made reference to. They have nowhere for it to go, either. Look at any body scan of a Transformer from any media, compared with Transformations, and I'm sorry, but your theory is rendered impossible. And if you're trying to base your theory on a must be system from the theories of life, it wouldn't apply. Take a look at Nameks from DBZ and Saibaimen, or Cell, And look at Quintessons themselves, who have no females. You can't use Asexual reproduction as a way to counter that, as Transformers have been shown to asexually reproduce in the Generation 2 comic, as it shows aone Transformer splitting from another, and Transformers are shown in a number of media being built.

Combine that with the atmosphere type, and that you'd need to construct some artificial means of genitalia, and your argument is rendered obselete, especially when you consider it would be faster to build a new Transformer.

No, Shiragoshi, It is not impossible. The biggest problem with your objection is that just because their "genitalia" isn't visible doesn';t mean it is not there. Many animals keep their Genitalia internal, hidden in a cloaca. If you notice on most transFormers, particularly thwe humanoid ones, which are the most dominant form, In the cod piece, particularly on the males, there is a plate. Under that plate is likey where the interface is kept until needed. Secondly, there is at least one Beast Wars TransFormer whos does appear to have rather obvious gonads— Hienlad. form Beast Wars Neo.

Also, the key difference between the Marvel G2 and the cartoon, later G1 comics by Dreamwave, as well as other TF series is that there is a complete lack of females in the Marvel comics run. All the others have clear males and females among the TransFormer population. They have genders. IF you have read the entire thread, then you know the only real purpose for genders, so I won't go into it again.
As for the atmoshpere type, Cybertron has the same type of atmosphere as on Earth.
As for the Quintessans, Nameks and Saibamen, they aren't TransFormers. They are their own species, and are all asexual. They nave no sexes at all, no gender idnetities, no males, no females. They're completely androgenous. ThransFormers aren't. There are males like Prime, Bumblebee, Ironhide, and BW Silverbolt, and there are definate females like Arcee, Elita-1, Chromia, and Black Arachnia. They engage in courtship and other activities all of which revolve around the choosing of a mate. Asexual life forms don't do that. They have no need to.

On top of that, just because constructing a protoform "might" be faster, does not make it the optimum solution. First off, Without the Matrix or access to Vector sigma, it requires a huge amount of power to initiate the spontaneous creation of a spark. Not only that, but the Matrix is not limitless. You can't use it indefinately. Therefore, it needs to be used sparingly. Sexual reproduction avoids both of these issues. On top of that, Protoforms require vast resources and factories to construct, and store them. If those factories were destroyed, then there would be no new generation. you wouldn't lose just one potential new life, you would lose thousands, if not millions, in one sweep. Not only that, but from a genetic diversity perspective, sexual reproduction is more likely to create greater diversity because each gamete contains a random cocktail of genetic material. The use of protoforms is fine if you need troops fast, or, as happened on Cybertron, when all the females were taken by the Quintessans afte rtheir last invasion, to keep the population up, but it is not a true replacement for proper procreation.

Genitalia aren't there, because you would have to build those, and a full sexual reproductive system on a Transformer. No-one would create genitals on a machine who is factory built. Heinlad only has testicles like that because of the animal he scanned, in adition to it being a crude attempt at humour which is common in Japanese cartoons. It's not a case of a plate, because there is no evidence at all that Transformers have any genitalia in body scans. Until you can provide said scan from any artist, you cannot use that as an argument. Ask Don Figueroa, he posts here. Also, no Transformer ever states anything about being born, which would have happened in at least one, if not more continuities, the word "Born" rather than "Built" or "Made" would have been used.

Your second point is terrible logic, because what you're trying to imply is that because of the fact there's females in Dreamwave's comics, it backs up your point. That's cherry picking, not presenting evidence. That's attempting to warp an argument in your favour by questionable means.

Thirdly, Transformers are female in appearence only. You often use MTMTE as part of your argument, however, you ignore the fact that Kup refers to Arcee as resembling "Females of other species", meaning females haven't always been present in the Transformer race. I know you'll attempt to use Beta in your argument here, however, she is not one of the original 13, since she has long since been forgotten about by Creators.

And fourthly, the point is irrelevant because Transformers do not need to engage in intercourse, as they are able to build new life. It makes breeding both obsolete and pointless. Beast Wars 2 or Neo (I forget which) makes reference to numerous Matrices, and there is nothing to indicate you have to use it sparingly, as it is the ultimate power. Buster Witwicky in comics was able to tear apart objects and bring them right back together again with his mind when given the power of the Matrix by Optimus Prime, and he was a mere human child, who exhibited no signs of exhaustion. Opinion is not evidence in a factual based argument, Tramp. Please do not use it. You continue to refer to females being "removed by the Quintessons", which I would like to see proof of, because I have never heard of this from anyone else.

You do not need diversity for robots built for the mere purpose of war. They are in the middle of the war, they do not have time to "Reproduce", and it is therefore not only useless, but impossible, when you consider there is nothing organic about Transformers, in Beast Machines, they formatted the planet to become organic, meaning it was not organic in any way at all. Your argument appears to be based on assumptions and opinions, rather than facts, which you seem to try to pass off as facts when they clearly are not.

Shirogoshi wrote:Genitalia aren't there, because you would have to Transformer. No-one would create genitals on a machine who is factory built. Heinlad only has testicles like that because of the animal he scanned, in adition to it being a crude attempt at humour which is common in Japanese cartoons. It's not a case of a plate, because there is no evidence at all that Transformers have any genitalia in body scans. Until you can provide said scan from any artist, you cannot use that as an argument. Ask Don Figueroa, he posts here.

Shorogoshi, "factory made" TransFormers start out as protoforms, which are completely skeletal, with only some partially formed circuits. They don't become formatted and thus full Cybertronian life until they are imbued with a spark. Once that happens, the protoform develops and grows on its own. The regenerative circuitry kicks in, and the body takes shape. Therefore, yes, it is quite possible for genitalia to form during this process. On top of that, they do have a genetic code. Where do you think that comes from? and we well never see a diagram of their "anatomy" because that would be entirely innapropriate for a series aimed primarily at children. Therefore, we can't see artist's renditions of their "unmentionables"
Now, if you look closely at these photos of various characters, you will see the plate I refer to:

http://www.seibertron.com/toys/fullsize.php?id=1083&size=1&image=50

http://www.seibertron.com/toys/fullsize.php?id=925&size=1&image=43

http://www.seibertron.com/toys/fullsize.php?id=928&size=1&image=52

http://www.seibertron.com/toys/fullsize.php?id=579&size=1&image=106


Look closely at all of these images. Notice the plates on their cod pieces? That could very well be menat to slide back. And, no, it would not interfere with transformation either.

Your second point is terrible logic, because what you're trying to imply is that because of the fact there's females in Dreamwave's comics, it backs up your point. That's cherry picking, not presenting evidence. That's attempting to warp an argument in your favour by questionable means.

No, not just in Dreamwave's comic. There are males and females in toe opriginal G1 cartoon, the G1 comic by Dreamwave, Head Masters, Victory, Beast Wars, Beast MachinesArmada, Energon, Cybertron, every single TF continuity except the Marvel run. On top of that, we have romance, coutrship, romantic rivalries, and, in at least a few cases, even marriage and children. The Marvel run is the only place where none of this occures.

Thirdly, Transformers are female in appearence only. You often use MTMTE as part of your argument, however, you ignore the fact that Kup refers to Arcee as resembling "Females of other species", meaning females haven't always been present in the Transformer race. I know you'll attempt to use Beta in your argument here, however, she is not one of the original 13, since she has long since been forgotten about by Creators.

How do you know she isn't? We don't know the identies of all of the Original 13, and Beta is from that era. Therefore, it is quite possible. On top of that, the Ultimate Guide also states that Arcee being female has to do with something from their timelost origins. Thus, originally, long in the past, there were indeed more females. That is how the TransFormers were originally created—male and female— but the females disappeared millenia ago. War Within clearly shows at least a handful of female TransFormers, and in the ongoing series, we see Elita-1, Chromia, Moonracer, and Firestar working as servants of the Quintessans as guards and an extraction team, and Arcee turns out to be a mole planetby the Quintessans to spy on the Autobots. Given the passages in the Ultimate Guide, some time after the events in War Within the Quintessans came back in another attemt to take over Cybertron, when they were force off, they took all of the females with them, and later sent Arcee back as a mole, and were preparing to send their extraction team lead by Elita-1 to abduct Hot Rod in preparation for another attempted take-over. This is all covered in the ongoing series, though the story arch was never completed and resolved.

And fourthly, the point is irrelevant because Transformers do not need to engage in intercourse, as they are able to build new life. It makes breeding both obsolete and pointless. Beast Wars 2 or Neo (I forget which) makes reference to numerous Matrices, and there is nothing to indicate you have to use it sparingly, as it is the ultimate power. Buster Witwicky in comics was able to tear apart objects and bring them right back together again with his mind when given the power of the Matrix by Optimus Prime, and he was a mere human child, who exhibited no signs of exhaustion. Opinion is not evidence in a factual based argument, Tramp. Please do not use it. You continue to refer to females being "removed by the Quintessons", which I would like to see proof of, because I have never heard of this from anyone else. Read above. According to the Ultimate Guide, Arcee being female is a result of the timelost origins of the TransFormer race. Thus, in the beginning, they were male and female. Also according to that book, the connection Primus shared with his "children" was severed by an invasion of an alien army. Further evidence from the passage dealing with the Quintessans makes it clear that they were the alien invaders, and have invaded, colonized, and been driven off more than once—the first is what cut off Primus from his children and divided the TransFormers into military and consumer lines, and the second resulting in the taking of all of the females. In the ongoing series, The Quintessans sent Arcee as amole to infiltrate the Autobots and wee sending an extraction team lead by Elita-1, to capture Hot Rod. Monracer and Firestar are also shown as guards of the Quintessan's throne room. Combine all of this, and it is clear that the reason why femals haven't been seen in nearly 9 million years is that it was the Quintessans who took them. Arcee is the first female to appear since War Within.

You do not need diversity for robots built for the mere purpose of war. They are in the middle of the war, they do not have time to "Reproduce", and it is therefore not only useless, but impossible. Your argument appears to be based on assumptions and opinions, rather than facts, which you seem to try to pass off as facts when they clearly are not.

TransFormers weren't built simply for the purpose of war. They are living beings created by their god, Primus. Not only that, but Even if we fully realize the ability to artificially clone human beings like we see in the Clone Wars, That does not eliminate our capacity to reproduce naturally.

Also, no, it is not based upon assumptions and opinions. It is based upon solid evidence in canon, and basic biology, both of which I have covered already more than once. So, no, I am not basiung this on assumptions. Secondly, we are all simply putting forth theories on the mechanics how they would reproduce sexually.[/url]

Why do you still argue? I think it's quite perverted to tell you the truth that you even think of Transformers as "Sexually able" and that you even think of a possible METHOD to their "Intercourse." You're robbing it of it's innocence in a way.

You seem to be fixated on one course of action. You seem unwilling to consider anyone else's opinions equal to yours. There are no mechanics because Transformers is a cartoon for children, so therefore, there is no breeding. Most of official canon is written by Simon Furman, who ignores any and all gender/reproductive traits. So it doesn't really matter, since whatever he writes willbe the definitive answer, don't you? Why is it you choose to accept some things he writes, and not others? That's slightly hypocritical, don't you think? In any case, here's Arcee's profile to prove my point about females.

Shirogoshi, I have that book, so you don't need to post the imgage. Secondly, no, I don't refuse to consider other people's opinions, What I am saying is that there is plenty of evidence to show that transFormers do have full genders and are capable of sexual reproduction. This whole discussion is about thow they would accomplish this, not if it is possible. Secondly, while much of G1 comic book canon, has been written by Mr Furman, Not all of it was. Much of the DW continuity was written by Brad Mick, who actualy wrote the MtMtE series, by the way, as well as Flint Dille, who did the old G1 cartoon, and the writers of all the other TF series. And in the majority of continuities, there are clear males and females. What we see in the cartoons and comics does not disprove the possibility of TransFormers being sexually reproductive. Much of it actually supports it, especialy when you look at every series both US and Japanese. MtMtE #8 even specifically states that methods other than imbuing protoforms with a spark exist for TransFormers to create new life.

Secondly, I'm not robbing TransFormers of anything. The entire point of this thread is to discuss theories on how TransFormers would reproduce sexually presuming that that it is indeed possible. Therefore, for the purpose of this discussion, Deabting over the possibility of it is pretty off topic.

Again, it's only off-topic because you say it's off-topic. Seriously, you seem to be the kind of person who likes to dictate what other people should and shouldn't think. You never responded to my question about why you use some of Simon Furman's ideas, such as Primus, and the Ultimate Guide, yet naysay his other ideals, such as no females. Because it doesn't help your argument, but contradicts it, perhaps?

Shirogoshi wrote:Again, it's only off-topic because you say it's off-topic. Seriously, you seem to be the kind of person who likes to dictate what other people should and shouldn't think. You never responded to my question about why you use some of Simon Furman's ideas, such as Primus, and the Ultimate Guide, yet naysay his other ideals, such as no females. Because it doesn't help your argument, but contradicts it, perhaps?

No Shirogoshi, Not because I say it is, but becuae others have as well.

Thunder Thruster wrote:back to topic! the one which assumes they can mate, not if they can or cannot, just if they can, how?



does anyone else have any theories on how TFs mate?

Hellbender wrote:Okay, okay. While your dedicated research into this subject is commendable, I didn't want to cause problems with my question, only solve them. Please, please, please don't argue about such a trivial subject, it only tends to turn others away who might have a valid opinion when they read this thread. I DO respect your opinions, but PLEASE don't debate this too heavily, you will only give yourselves headaches. Here's an idea, close your eyes, imagine two robots, male and female, then imagine they proclaim their love for each other, then they decide to 'unite'. What happens next? If that doesn't work, look at your Transformers figures and ask,'How do you guys procreate?'. That, or debate this via PM.

This is from at least two othe rpeople who want to get back to the original intent of this thread.

Well if you wish to get it back on track, stop arguing, continue, and stop making it obvoius everytime you lose an argument you wish to change the subject. Thank you. Now, I won't bther arguing with you anymore, you don't argue fairly, and your evidence is ludicrous. If you attempted this sort of thing in the court of law, you'd lose. A LOT. Thank you, good day.

Shirogoshi, if you want to continue this debate, fine, just do it via Private message.

I said I have no interest in beating you anymore, now be quiet and allow this topic to get back on track!

Chill out Shirogoshi. This is a friendly discussion.

Doesn't look too friendly going by several of the last few pages, IMO. And it's not a discussion, it's your forcing your opinions on ayone who disagrees, apparently like in every other topic you post in.

Shirogoshi wrote:Doesn't look too friendly going by several of the last few pages, IMO. And it's not a discussion, it's your forcing your opinions on ayone who disagrees, apparently like in every other topic you post in.

Shirogoshi, the only one who wasn't being friendly is gone, at least for a while, because he was picking fights and insulting people. No one is forcing opinions down anyones throats. There is enough evidence throughout most of Tf lore to support the possibility that Cybertronians are capable of sexual reproduction in some form. This discussion is about coming up with theories on how that might work. You are more than welcome to participate, We all just ask that the discussion be kept on topic and that it remain civil and friendly.

Gone, huh? I bet it was his fault, even though he'd stated his case and attempted to leave and you kept absolutely HAVING to respond and reply to his posts, eh, Tramp? And everytime he got drawn BACK INTO an argument, you'd use your selective attempts at evidence to try and win an argument? Who's "WE" I see YOU telling us to get back on track because you can't win this argument!

This so-called evidence of yours is interpretable either way, it is not concrete and does not explicitly state anything. However, the evidence against you IS concrete and has been stated explicitly many, MANY times in Transformers mythology, and multiple times your reproduction 'theory' has been shot down by Simon Furman. Yet, you're the oen who seems to enjoy using his Ultimate Guide to cut people down when it suits you. You objectively argue when something proves your point, but if it disproves another point in another topic, it doesn't count! An ULTIMATE Guide would explain EVERYTHING about the Transformers Universe, and would mention "Sexual Reproduction" were it possible, or if it existed. It doesn't mention it, therefore is DOES NOT EXIST.

Tramp, I've read back a few pages, and you don't seem to like ANYONE voicing an opinion different to yours. They say something that doesn't meet your criteria of what you percieve, and you try to argue with them. THAT isn't fair. THAT isn't respectful of other people's opinions. Then people try to argue with you, and try to leave, but you have to respond all the time. You don't need to reply every time someone says something. You CAN leave when someone says they don't want to bother with you anymore. All you're doing is coming across as obstinant and hardheaded, and that won't get you very far at all with the posters here.

Tramp wrote:

Damolisher wrote:And there we go, trying to use the book which was written years after the cartoon and Marvel comic and has no impact on either again. How about you give up using MTMTE, no-one gives a crap what the books say. And Tramp, say goodbye to your argument:

1. Arcee's origin: The specific text from the guide is," Notable for her rare female styling and warrior status, Arcee tries hard to shrug off the strange, gender-based bias of her peers. Strange, because Transformers are inherently non-gender-specific, and only some quirk of their timelost origins can account for the difference in appearence and attitude."

Damolisher, you are forgetting one part of that passage, a part that you so curiously omitted: . "..And only some quirk of of their timelost origins can account for the differences in her appearance and attitude." You also forget that this ties directly into the passages about the Quintessans and the Well of the Allsparks. Arcee's being femal in what is considered a nongender specific society—not a "genderless" one— has to do with their diostant past, a time when there were males and females all over Cybertron. During this time they also had a close connection to Primus, then they were invaded by the Quintessans at least twice. The secion on the Well of the Allspark specifically states that their connection to Primus was severed as a result of an invasion, and the section on the Quintessans specifically states that they have invaded and colonized Cyberton numerous times, and, based upon both the DW and cartoon continuities were driven off, and that they have had a dramatic effect on the development of the TransFormer race. Given that in the DW run, there were still femmes on Cybertron during the time of War Within, the Quintessans had to have invaded some time after that. since after that time were were no femmes until Arcee. Also, since the ongoing series shows that Arcee was sent by the Quintessans to infiltrate the Autobots and that Firestar, Chromia, Moonracer and Elita-1 are the "extraction squad" about to be sent to collect Hot Rod, The reason why Arcee's design comes from timelost origins becomes fully apparent— all of the females were taken by the Quintessans afteh their last failed invasion attempt.

2. Season 2 "The Search for Alpha Trion": Refers to Elita-one as being a "female" transformer.....make particular note of the quotations.

See above. Also watch the actual episode. Elita-1 and Prime are mates. They are lovers; just as Ironhide and Chromia are, as well as Inferno and Firestar, and Powerglide and Moonracer.

Judging from these 2 points alone, it seems to be aiming at a point that female exoskeletons are just a body style & nothing more. & the 'quirk of timelost origins' could just as easily be gender-specific alien influence on a non-gender-specific society as it could be sexual reproduction.

No, because there were no females after War Within, Arcee was the first in millions of years. TransFormers were not created by organic aliens, they were born of Primus. We know the identities of six of the Original 13, and possibly a seventh, That seventh is a femme. IF Beta is indeed one of the Original 13—and given her comparitive age to Alpha Trion, this is highly likely— then it is likely that there were other females among the Original 13 as well and that Primus created the TransFormers as male and female.

Something else, too, dealing with Primus...if he is a god, & has the ability to make TFs in any form he so pleases, it would be possible to make them in such a way that they could be alive without having to do the wild toaster dance. In fact, IIRC most TF mythology involving Primus has him directly making more TFs or indirectly through artifacts, eliminating a need for reproduction at all. The 'other means' that you keeps championing could just as easily be other artifacts.

They would still need to be capable of procreation. Of autopoietic reproduction. Given that they have genders, then that form of reproduction would logically be sexual, since that is what genders are for. Primus created them with genders, The Quintessans are the ones who stole the femmes away, leaving the remaining TransFormers a single-gender society. And the only known source that directly shows Primus creating one of the Original 13 is from the MArvel run, and that was Prima who grew litrally from Primus' own flesh—the planet Cybertron itself—just as in the Bible, God made Adam from the very earth.

There's also something probably worth mentioning reguarding Beast Machines, because it specifically shows that before "the reformatting" Transformers are essentially sparks with mobile suits for bodies, & said bodies are interchangeable, such as the case with all the vehicons commanders being drone bodies with a spark attatched such as Rhinox/Tankor, Jetstorm/Silverbolt, & Thrust/Waspinator, & Megatron having several bodies built for him...one in particular being a variation of Optimal Optimus, minus the gorilla mode. this suggests that individual TFs don't have a "genetic code" inherent to one particular TF, & if they did, changing the body would completely do away with the genetic code in exchange for another. & if that were the case, that would essentially make a TF more of a symbiotic life form (intillegent spark life form collaborating with an unintelligent robotic life form to give a body to an otherwise "etheral" spark)...which would make all kinds of crazy stuff I don't even want to start to think about.

Not quite..The Spark is akin to the Soul. It is the life force of the TransFormer. without it, the body is just a lifeless husk. Animating a sparkless body is basically creating a zombie—walking dead. The Spark also cannot exist outside a body. In Beast machines, they were imprisoned in a containment vessel, which is a body in a sense. Without a body, the spark returns to Primus. It cannot exist on its own separate from the body.

Also, you go on about birth being inappropriate for children, correct? What about shows such as Rugrats, where you see (SHOCK HORROR) Pregnant women? The reason that so many writers skim around the subject of robot pregnancy is because they obviously expected better of Transformers fans than this debate, which clearly isn't the case, being as you still want to beat a dead horse, and still want to inflict your unsubstanciated claims of Robophilia on everyone. Obviously, the writers didn't think there was Transformers fans so sad and pathetic, they've got nothing better to think about than consider robots could have babies.No, birth[]/b] isn't the problem, showing [b]sex is the problem, even if it is mechanical life forms doing it. That is what is innapropriate for children. Showing them actually in the act is what is inappropriate. And, like I said, there are plenty of indirect evidence to support the possibility of them being capable of sexual reproduction without directly showing them in the act of mating, or giving birth on screen. Being husbands, or wives, mothers and fathers, sons and daughters, brothers and sisters, aunts and uncles, courting each other and vying for the affections of the opposite sex, and having small children, is all evidence in support of sexual reproduction.

Clearly, they were wrong.And with that, I bid you, adieu. Sorry, Trampy baby, you lose.

Try again Damolisher.

Heh, when I PM'd this to Damolisher, I didn't expect him to cut & paste exactly, but things being as they are, here we go.

First off, half of the points here, Tramp, you got waaay off.

Arcee: her bio was taken directly from the Ultimate Guide. & By "timelost origin" ,I would thik it would be safe to bet that given that it is indeed "timelost", that would date her quirk well before the quintesons' raid. Like I said, this could be alien influence even before Quintessons. We don't know. Origins of Transformers haven't been written.

Elita-one: also was remarking on the account of the episode in the Ultimate Guide. Referr to her as "female", not female. Note the subtle difference between the two...it suggests that she is genderless with a bodystyle similar to that of other lifeform's females.

Primus: I quoted numerous other possibilities based on the fact that Primus is a god & therefore could have designed them any way he damn-well pleased, even to be able to replicate without a need for gender, & the only response was an elaboration of, "it dosen't matter, they have to have sex anyway".

Beast Machines: aha, so now we come to the part where you find yourself in a bind. You say life has to come from the scientific criteria of life(if not yet in this thread, you certainly toted it around in the other thread quite a lot), one of which involves reproduction, & yet here you directly state that the source of the TFs life, the part that acknowledges it as being alive, is his spark, which says that criteria be damned, they are alive simply because they have a soul given to them by Primus. & that would make them alive reguardless of a means of sexual reproduction.
Also, Beast Machines also shows that TFs without sparks are not zombies, they are drones....robots without sentience. & impuding a drone with a spark makes them alive.

Birth to kiddies: While it may be inappropriate to show sexual relations to kiddies, directly stating that TFs are born from other TFs, would not be. No TF biology lesson needed, just confirmation that they are birthed from other TFs would be necessary, yet the matter has been avoided like the plauge. Kinda pecuiliar, isn't it? It would almost make you think that they didn't.

Also, Tramp, I think you might need to be made aware that you are putting down people, saying that they're narrow-minded thinking that robots can't have sex...saying that they are applying human applications to robotic life, & yet at the same time you yourself are sticking the TFs with human applications of needing sex to function as a living entity, & gender being there solely for accomodating procreation. That is very hypocritical way to think, & does not win arguments, nor does it persuade others to favor your thinking. & I would think that if you want people to take your arguments seriously, you would want to avoid situations like these as much as possible.

Anyway, for my POV on the topic....they don't. There's no need. They are autonomus robots with souls (or not, depending on how you view sparks), & they can simply build others, & them impude them with sentience via matrix, vector sigma, some factory setting, Hasbro can make more, whatever. But no sex. & if there was, no TF would be getting any besides Fort Max, cause all the ladies would be wanting to ride the tower.

Shirogoshi, I don't have a problem with people who have differing opinions. I never have. The problem with this one individual is that he was being openly hostile, throwing blantant insults, not only at me but at others as well. Nor was he trying to leave the discussion. He was trying to get the entire discussion shut down because he did not want to let others discuss something he felt was pointless. He was trolling. He was the one forcing his views on others. There is no need to get hostile. People can disagree on a subject without getting hostile. There are things I disagree with some people on and other stuff I agree with these same people on. debates and discussions happen over matters of opinion and of fact. Whether or not TransFormers are capable of sexual reproduction is a question of fact. It's either yes or no, or still in question. There is a lot of evidence from all of TF canon which suggests that TransFormers are capable of some form of sexual reproduction. IT is all circumstancial though because direct proof can't be shown because the series is targeted towards children. Some writers don't feel comfortable with the subject so they completely avoid the issue one way or the other. Nothing in TF canon states absolutely that it is impossible for TransFormers to be sexually reproductive. There is plenty that suggests it is possible, and some (Marvel) which suggests it might not be. All comntinuities but one support the possibility that TransFormers are capable of some form of sexual reproduction, and that is all any of us are talking about is the possibility, and, based upon that possibility, what those forms might be.

And as it's been told to you repeatedly, there is none. We've been told how it happens, and there are no other possible, plausble ways of robotic reproduction to occur.

Nemesis, avoiding the issue is not the same thing as denying the issue or making it impossible. It is simply not fully addressing it one way or the other. Also remember that the Japanese did address the issue with the manga version of Victory with the Dino Force all being fathers of small children, Deathsaurus being married, and Leozak having a sister. Beast Wars Neo also addresses it with Leo Convoy being the father of Leo Jr. Do we really need to see a femme giving birth? No. I don't feel we do. We don't need to have everything spelled out. Some things can and should remain a mystery. Regardless, the whole point of showing the families of the Decepticons was to show that they were no different than us. The whole point of having TransFormers have genders and fall in love and get married was to show that they were fundamentally no different than us Yes, They do create new TransFormers using protoforms imbued with a spark, no question. But that is not the only way they can create new Cybertronian life. And most continuities suggest, thoguh don't flat out say, that is could very well be possible for them to reproduce sexually. There really is no reason why they couldn't be.

Oh, and you might want to close your quote tag around the quote you made of my previous post.

Shirogoshi wrote:And as it's been told to you repeatedly, there is none. We've been told how it happens, and there are no other possible, plausble ways of robotic reproduction to occur.

Yes, there is. Would you like me to list them? I am not the only one who has said that there is evidence to support it. There is alot of evidence, al of it circumstancial, but it still exists. You can agree with the evidence or not, it is your choice.

All Throwaway Japanese References. They don't count. Victory and those Japanese exclusives never happened over here. That's like claiming a Japanese Wrestling Title means something in the WWE. It doesn't.

And no, I don't want to hear your misinterpreted open-ended conjecture, thank you very much.

Shirogoshi wrote:All Throwaway Japanese References. They don't count. Victory and those Japanese exclusives never happened over here. That's like claiming a Japanese Wrestling Title means something in the WWE. It doesn't.

And no, I don't want to hear your misinterpreted open-ended conjecture, thank you very much.

Shirogoshi. You are sounding almost too much like Damolisher. This board is more than just Westerners. It has members from all over the world. This discussion is also more than just the US and UK comics and cartoons, It encompasses all of TF lore. US, UK and even Japanese. On top of that, the Japanese material is still official parts of TF lore, so it is still just as relevant. Also, it isn't just the Japanese material that provides evidence. The very existance of male and female TransFormers is evidence. The very fact that they engage in courtship in every continuity, save Marvel, is evidence in support of it. The fact that both Hot Rod and Springer are engaged in a rivalry over Arcee's romantoic attention is evidence in support of it. Optimus Prime and Elita-1 being lovers is evidence. Ironhide and Chromia being lifemates is evidence. The fact that Wreckgar is married in the US cartoon is evidence. The fact that a related, and probably decendent race, (the Lithonians) have children is evidence. The fact that Wheelie is a child is evidence, since TransFormers born from protoforms emerge as fully formed adults. And yes, Wheelie is a child, not an adult. It is all evidence in support of sexual reproduction is possible.

What it all boils down to is that Transformers are part of evolution. They transform, in infinite ways, and their means of procreation are not exempt. Malcolm in Jurassic Park said 'Life finds a way'. And Transformers are composed of highly advanced technology, not biology, so throughout eons of survival and improvement, like their technology and knowledge, their means of reproducing have moved light years beyond sexual intercourse. As I said, their method is more likely a voluntary sacrifice of a part of one's SPARK, and is a concious, a spiritual union of wills, minds, souls. And through advanced means beyond our understanding, they create a unique being unto itself, which possesses the abilities of its predecessors to do the same. Which seems to fit in with existing canon. End of story.

Cybertronians have a highly advanced civilization.

Hence... SEX is not allowed! Reproduction is not allowed for the Transformers.

Only the holder of the Allspark has that luxury.. and pleasure!