The Energon Pub

lodelco wrote:Since we're on the topic of female Transformers I thought I might point this out.

Its from Megatron: Origins and the bots on either side of that guy look like femmes.

That's because they are femmes. Probably a couple of courtesans.

Tramp wrote:

Predaprince wrote:OOOOKKKKK.

That was my first post in this thread and it was directed to the original poster of the thread.

The belief that a different type of TF needs to be made specifically for girls only is fine, but if it does happen it should not be pushed that only males collect from this type of TF and only females collect from the other type.

It is fine if they make a few TFs like you are saying, but I was warning about the POSSIBILITY that it would separate and control members of the fandom based on gender.

I highly doubt that. Both male and female fans have wanted more female Transformers inthe toy line, and that is really all the thread starter was asking for.

No, it wasn't the only thing the thread starter was stating.

I agree that there should be more female TFs made into toys, but the poster also stated as seen in the title of the thread that they would be for girls.

Again, I agree that there should be more female TFs as toys, but they shouldn't be marketed as TFs for girls as girls and boys should collect any TF toy they want.

Predaprince wrote:
No, it wasn't the only thing the thread starter was stating.

I agree that there should be more female TFs made into toys, but the poster also stated as seen in the title of the thread that they would be for girls.

Again, I agree that there should be more female TFs as toys, but they shouldn't be marketed as TFs for girls as girls and boys should collect any TF toy they want.

No, it wasn't "all" she was asking for. I agree with you there. However, it was the gyst of what she was asking for.

Tramp wrote:double post.

looks like a triple to me but.. ah.. PredaPrince

I think i have to agree that while a few feme-type TFs (toy or otherwise) could be good for all, however like Pr^2 also think they should not be geared strictly for female consumers. As it is, female consumers do buy the male looking TFs; the same TFs the target males buy. It would be unwise to attempt a massive muti-figure 'My Buddy' and 'Kid Sister' franchise with the intent that only a small portion of your buyers will consider either brand.

As for the validity of gender...

slycherrychunks wrote:While I'm not against the idea of "female" transformers like Arcee, BlackArachnia, and Thunderblast (actually, I really like them), I do not accept that transformers have genders, just that some transformers have characteristics that humans perceive as feminine.

Why these transformers have robo-boobs and robo-curves is a different argument altogether though and one I don't I have an answer for.

For there to be gender would imply the need for two TFs inorder to reproduce. There has yet to be a TF shown to be made in this manner. The closest to thhis as an exception rather than a rule could be Arcee if certain information could be remotely verified. Even then the use of two TFs to reproduce would be seen as optional.

Tramp wrote:Living things reproduce, not as an individual survival trait, but as a species survival trait. A species cannot survive if it can't pass on its genes to a new generation. Building a copy on an assembly line is not the same thing. Imbuing a protoform with a spark is no different than cloning would be to us. It is artificially creating life, not procreation. Only living things procreate, and procreation is necessary for something to be life. This could be asexual or sexual. But, if it were asexual, why would they even have genders at all? Why would they form romantic pairs and engage in courtship and marriage? Asexual life forms have no need for genders or gender identities. They have no need for romance or coutrship, or marriage.

In most TF continuiies it is believed the TFs initially repoduced asexually, LeigeMaximo and G2 cons thus negating the actual need for gender. Seeing BWs and even BMs link to G1s continuity, I consider "romantic pairs and engage in courtship and marriage" a by product of there adaption and perhaps adoption of non cybertronian alt forms and cultures. After loosing the ability to reproduce, and the matrix, the Maximal Protoforms became a means to reformat new sparks with specifications from the old. Vector Sigma became the only means to gain a spark.

It is the Japanese continuity that throws in a plossible need for gender, as you stated from TF: victory. TF:TM Lithonians are not TFs, Wheelie is a minibot, Hotrod (and even BW Cheetor) is inexperienced yet matured over time (and with upgrades) like Bumblebee. Kup wasn't warn down when he rolled of the assembly line. Even the lambo bros where built seconds apart yet consider themselves equivalent to living brothers.

The TFs are meant to be long-lived, highly-adaptive, super-robot lifeforms.

As for the gyst of what she was asking for,

BabylonQueen wrote:TRansformers are mostly boy toys but since they do have fembots .Shouldn't HAsbro have transformers for girls? They can have a line with only female transformers. Have actually a boy or two in the line even though they are really needed. The fembots don't need to compete or impress them to reproduce only to impress or companionship. They should have female leaders as well.

perhaps she could make that call.

AxiomScion wrote:

Tramp wrote:double post.

looks like a triple to me but.. ah.. PredaPrince

I think i have to agree that while a few feme-type TFs (toy or otherwise) could be good for all, however like Pr^2 also think they should not be geared strictly for female consumers. As it is, female consumers do buy the male looking TFs; the same TFs the target males buy. It would be unwise to attempt a massive muti-figure 'My Buddy' and 'Kid Sister' franchise with the intent that only a small portion of your buyers will consider either brand.

As for the validity of gender...

slycherrychunks wrote:While I'm not against the idea of "female" transformers like Arcee, BlackArachnia, and Thunderblast (actually, I really like them), I do not accept that transformers have genders, just that some transformers have characteristics that humans perceive as feminine.

Why these transformers have robo-boobs and robo-curves is a different argument altogether though and one I don't I have an answer for.

For there to be gender would imply the need for two TFs inorder to reproduce. There has yet to be a TF shown to be made in this manner. The closest to thhis as an exception rather than a rule could be Arcee if certain information could be remotely verified. Even then the use of two TFs to reproduce would be seen as optional.

Tramp wrote:Living things reproduce, not as an individual survival trait, but as a species survival trait. A species cannot survive if it can't pass on its genes to a new generation. Building a copy on an assembly line is not the same thing. Imbuing a protoform with a spark is no different than cloning would be to us. It is artificially creating life, not procreation. Only living things procreate, and procreation is necessary for something to be life. This could be asexual or sexual. But, if it were asexual, why would they even have genders at all? Why would they form romantic pairs and engage in courtship and marriage? Asexual life forms have no need for genders or gender identities. They have no need for romance or coutrship, or marriage.

In most TF continuiies it is believed the TFs initially repoduced asexually, LeigeMaximo and G2 cons thus negating the actual need for gender. Seeing BWs and even BMs link to G1s continuity, I consider "romantic pairs and engage in courtship and marriage" a by product of there adaption and perhaps adoption of non cybertronian alt forms and cultures. After loosing the ability to reproduce, and the matrix, the Maximal Protoforms became a means to reformat new sparks with specifications from the old. Vector Sigma became the only means to gain a spark.

It is the Japanese continuity that throws in a plossible need for gender, as you stated from TF: victory. TF:TM Lithonians are not TFs, Wheelie is a minibot, Hotrod (and even BW Cheetor) is inexperienced yet matured over time (and with upgrades) like Bumblebee. Kup wasn't warn down when he rolled of the assembly line. Even the lambo bros where built seconds apart yet consider themselves equivalent to living brothers.

The TFs are meant to be long-lived, highly-adaptive, super-robot lifeforms.

As for the gyst of what she was asking for, perhaps she could make that call.

Actually, it was only in the G2 story arc produced by Marvel that had the concept of TFs being asexual to begin with, and that was only because they needed an origin for the Swarm, and because Simon Furman wrote it, and has admitted to not liking the concept of female transformers. The idea of genders in a robotic race makes his head hurt. According to his stories, Arcee was created after the Traansformers had already interacted with humans to better relate to them, yet in both the cartoons and DW comics, there have always been females among the Cybertronian population. It had nothing to do with human relations. In War Dawn, we were introduced to Ariel, the girlfriend of Orion Pax. She later became Elita-1 who appeared in The Search for Alpha Trion, along with Chromia, Firestar, and Moonracer. All four of these femmes have been around on Cybertron since before the Autobots left for Earth millions of years ago. And all four have been romantically linked to their male counterparts all that time. Elita-1 is Prime's lover. Chromia is Ironhide's mate. Firestar is Inferno's. Moonracer is Powerglide's. All of these romantic relationships existed long before the Autobots went to Earth. It isn't a new development resulting from them spending time among Humans. In War Within, we see a number of unnamed female Autobots. On top of that, Prime is shown with mud flaps that have "sexy silhoettes" of Elita-1 on them This story took place 9 million years ago. Once again, long before they ever came to Earth. That means that Cybertronians have always had genders. They have always been male and female. That means genders has a part to play in reproduction. Since that is the only purpose for genders to develop in a life form. Genders serve no other purpose.

Secondly, Wheelie isn't just a mini-bot. In the movie, Grimlock specifically refers to him as a "boy". Optimus Prime scolds him like an elder disciplining a child, after Wheelie bites him. Prime's exact words are, " Enough, you. Hasn't anyone ever told you to respect your elders?" Wheelie acts like a child, looks like a child. He is a child. Even his bio refers to him as young.

Also, take into account the Victory manga. The Dino Force's children, were literally children drawn in chibi form. They looked like small children. As for the Lithonians. It is believed that they may be decended from Cybertronians. Possibly a lost colony, just like the Junkions. We don't know for sure, but they are a fully mehcanical race of life forms just like the Cybertronians. The only thing that they appear to lack is the ability to transform, and even that is up for debate since the Marvel universe write-ups for them showed alternate modes.

As far as being optional goes. If we perfected cloning technology, sexual reproduction would be "optional" for us too! the Use of protoforms is no different than cloning or genetic engineering would be for us if suddenly the majority of our females were suddenly lost. We would be forced to resort to cloning and growing new life in a test tube to keep our population up. That would not mean we had lost the capacity to reproduce naturally. The same is true of Transformers. Females are rare for suome reason, probably as a result of the war. This would make mating and children rare as well. Thus, the need to use protoforms and imbue them with life. In essence, to clone or genetically engineer new Cybertronians (not to be confused with "cloning technology" used to create identical beings).

Tramp wrote:All life forms, no matter their basis, need to reproduce.

What, even fictional ones? Do omniversal entities like Primus and Unicron need to have babies now, or are they "not alive"?

Building a copy on an assembly line is not the same thing. Imbuing a protoform with a spark is no different than cloning would be to us. It is artificially creating life, not procreation. IF the only way to create new Transformers was to build them, then technically they would not be true life forms. They would be "just" machines. However,Thransformers canon says that they are true life forms. As such, they maust be capable of autopoietic reproduction.

Life can also be defined by sentience, thats how I interpreted the fiction. If I could give my computer a soul then it would be alive, a la Johnny Five. When Primus/Vector Sigma infuses an artificially created body with a living spark, it becomes alive. As Spock said - "It's life Jim, but not as we know it".

I thought not too long ago about the concept of there being female transformers and I came up with an easy way of explaining it away. I included it in a fanfiction I started recently.

Here's what I wrote:

“Some of the species the Quintesson sold their technology to had a matriarchal social structure, they wouldn't accept masculine looking machines to fight their wars and manage their societies. Naturally they catered to these ridiculous fleshling notions of assigning gender to a machine that can't reproduce.”

Tramp wrote:

Damolisher wrote:

NightFall wrote:
Yes, this topic surfaced so many times. Love is powerful, and there is different kinds of loves. It doesn't go away, it's part of life, even if there's so little of it. Love doesn't mean to have sex and create life, because to those who can't have children still do get married out of love, reguardless of reproduction or not. I think in this Transformer world, they don't just fall in love to reproduce only, they just fall in love or lust, because they can or can't help themselves.

Now, I just think hasbro, only any other toy company, writers, etc., avoids the fembots, because they don't want to become a soap opera, or "they" think their kids can't handle it, the exploration of love, sex, or anything complicated like that. Or all together lose money because Transformers can become "uncool", or lose it's pop culture on going fan base, I think?

Well whatever it is, it's really sad and a such a shame.

Pardon me for the double-post, but here's the deal:

You want a soap opera, go watch a soap opera. If you want a kick-arse cartoon/comic/toyline with giant transforming robots, leave it the way it is.

It's not sad, and it's not a shame that they're leaving romance out. I don't wanna see robo-romance. If I want that, I'll introduce my toaster to my heater. G.I. Joe has plenty of what people claim they want to see in Transformers. With relationships, etc, BECAUSE G.I. JOE CHARACTERS ARE HUMAN!!! Why do people want to see romance in Transformers so badly? It's a franchise aimed at kids for crying out loud. Not everything has to be aimed at a set group, and I'm beginning to think that we've all gained a "It has to be what OUR generation wants for the series."

I'm not saying I'm exempt, I'll include myself on that boat, but really, they're a lot of selfishness creeping into Transfandom from the G1 generation, IMO.

Damolishor, TransFormers already had romance in it between TF characters. IT happened. Optimus Prime had Elita-1 as a lover. Ironhide had Chromia. Inferno had Firestar. Powerglide had Moonracer. Hot Rod and Springer were romantic rivals over Arcee. Romance abounded among Transformers.

They weren't lovers, and Hot Rod and Springer weren't rivals over anything. Powerglide, Ironhide and Inferno weren't shown as anything more than friends with their counterparts, Optimus and Elita were said to be boyfriend and girlfriend, but I didn't see any mushy romantic crap coming out of that one, and whilst Arcee was shown caring deeply about Springer and Hot Rod, you'd have to say the same relationship between her and Springer applied to her and Daniel, since she showed more emotion toward Daniel than she did toward Springer OR Hot Rod.

And why would YOU be correcting Simon Furman on genders in Transformers? He's created most Transformers fiction, if anyone would know about Transformers and reproducing, it'd be him. Where the HELL do you get "Living organisms" from? I keep seeing you beating this dead horse over and over again in your arguments, yet you provide no proof outside of a throwaway line from a movie written by someone who's had nothing to do with Transformers before!

Damolisher wrote:

Tramp wrote:

Damolisher wrote:

NightFall wrote:
Yes, this topic surfaced so many times. Love is powerful, and there is different kinds of loves. It doesn't go away, it's part of life, even if there's so little of it. Love doesn't mean to have sex and create life, because to those who can't have children still do get married out of love, reguardless of reproduction or not. I think in this Transformer world, they don't just fall in love to reproduce only, they just fall in love or lust, because they can or can't help themselves.

Now, I just think hasbro, only any other toy company, writers, etc., avoids the fembots, because they don't want to become a soap opera, or "they" think their kids can't handle it, the exploration of love, sex, or anything complicated like that. Or all together lose money because Transformers can become "uncool", or lose it's pop culture on going fan base, I think?

Well whatever it is, it's really sad and a such a shame.

Pardon me for the double-post, but here's the deal:

You want a soap opera, go watch a soap opera. If you want a kick-arse cartoon/comic/toyline with giant transforming robots, leave it the way it is.

It's not sad, and it's not a shame that they're leaving romance out. I don't wanna see robo-romance. If I want that, I'll introduce my toaster to my heater. G.I. Joe has plenty of what people claim they want to see in Transformers. With relationships, etc, BECAUSE G.I. JOE CHARACTERS ARE HUMAN!!! Why do people want to see romance in Transformers so badly? It's a franchise aimed at kids for crying out loud. Not everything has to be aimed at a set group, and I'm beginning to think that we've all gained a "It has to be what OUR generation wants for the series."

I'm not saying I'm exempt, I'll include myself on that boat, but really, they're a lot of selfishness creeping into Transfandom from the G1 generation, IMO.

Damolishor, TransFormers already had romance in it between TF characters. IT happened. Optimus Prime had Elita-1 as a lover. Ironhide had Chromia. Inferno had Firestar. Powerglide had Moonracer. Hot Rod and Springer were romantic rivals over Arcee. Romance abounded among Transformers.

They weren't lovers, and Hot Rod and Springer weren't rivals over anything. Powerglide, Ironhide and Inferno weren't shown as anything more than friends with their counterparts, Optimus and Elita were said to be boyfriend and girlfriend, but I didn't see any mushy romantic crap coming out of that one, and whilst Arcee was shown caring deeply about Springer and Hot Rod, you'd have to say the same relationship between her and Springer applied to her and Daniel, since she showed more emotion toward Daniel than she did toward Springer OR Hot Rod.

And why would YOU be correcting Simon Furman on genders in Transformers? He's created most Transformers fiction, if anyone would know about Transformers and reproducing, it'd be him. Where the HELL do you get "Living organisms" from? I keep seeing you beating this dead horse over and over again in your arguments, yet you provide no proof outside of a throwaway line from a movie written by someone who's had nothing to do with Transformers before!

No, Damolishor,Ironhide and Chromia, Inerno and Firestar, Mooinracer and Powerglide, and Optimus Prime and Elita-1 were lovers. They were romantic partners.

As for Hot Rod, Springer and Arcee, here is a quote from Arcee's MtMtE #1 write-up:

Her skill and ruthlessnes in combat have madeothers wary, including Hot Rod. Still, the lad has developed a more-than-passing interest in Arcee, as has Springer.

Further more, War and Peace #4, page 18, last panel, Kup says to Prime,

"Don't mind Hot Rod. His power converters always get a little tourqued whenever anybody even looks at [b]his favorite gal."

Hot Rod and Springer were rivals for Arcee's hand. That is canon.

And, where do I get living organisms from? From TF canon! That is where. From the very beginning Transformers have been robotic life forms, not just advanced robots. Even the old cartoon stated that they werre a race of robotic life. The old comics said the same thing, as did Beast Wars and every series since, as well as the DW comics. Yes, Simon Furman created a lot of the TF stories over the years, but he did not create all of TF canon. There were parts of it that he simply tried to avoid entirely because he himself could not get past the idea of them being robots. Most of the DW run of G1 comics were written by Brad Mick, a relative new-comer, but also a long-time TF fan growing up. Even Simon Furman raved about him in his foreward in War and Peace Page 10 of MtMtE #8 begins the section on Cybertron. It says:

Orbiting Alpha Centari, the planet Cybertron is a giant metallic planet the size of Earth's neighbor Saturn [see Earth]. Composed almost entirely of metallic ore of varying physical properties, it is home to a race of powerful mechanical beings able to convert their bodies between robot mode and various alternate forms. For millenia, the two dominant factions—the Autobots and the Decepticons—have been at war with each other for control of their world and its remaining Energon [See Energon].

Page 13, under Inhabitants says—

The denizens of Cybertron are among the most powerful and gifted life forms, mechanical or otherwise, in the known universe. Posessing the ability to convert theoir bodies into different forms for the purpose of disguise, warfare, infiltration, and countless other uses, their potential is only limited by their imagination.

Page 15, under Protoforms states:

The standard Cbertronian begins life as little more than a skelital mass of partially formed circuits: a protoform. These protoforms are stored in stasis pods {See CR Chambers/Stasis Pods] filled with nutrient gell that nurtures and protects the fledgling circuits. Protoforms can be built to a predesigned schematic before bing imbued with life, or they can form naturally upon the introduction of a spark [See Sparks]. There are several methods of granting life to a protoform. The most ancient and reliable is through the use of the Matrix. However, in the absence of the Matrix's power, there are other less reliable options. These include attempting to attune the protoform to an energy wavelength similar to that of the Matrix and then applying a burst of concentrated Energon to activate the process. This was used during desperate times when the Matrix was unavailable to the Autobots and is also the only option for the Decepticons to create new warriors. Although it is effective, the method requires a high amount of energy, making it inadvisable during lean times. it is believed that Cybertronians have other untapped potential for creating new life, but it is unclear what missing components are necessary to complete this system.

Notice how many times the term "life" is used. The section on the Matrix states that it is a conduit for new life essences. The book repeatedly also refers to transformer genetic make-up. It uses the words in the section of Triple Changers and in the section on Size/Mass Change, under Mass Conversion, among other places. The section on Sparks also states that "a Spark is what gives a Cybertronian his individuality and life", and that it is "indespensible to life for Cybertronian mechanoids." The new movie too Prime uses the term organisms when he introduces himself and the other Autobots. Repeatedly throughout TF lore, they are described as life forms, not just robots. These are living beings with the ability to think, learn, grow, heal, eat, love, hate. Everything that organic life forms can do. The only difference between them and us is what they are composed of. They are still living things. They are still life forms.

And, for the record, I wasn't "correcting" Mr Furman. I was giving him an idea as to why a Robotic life form would have genders, which is something he has never understood.

Damolisher wrote:

Tramp wrote:

Damolisher wrote:

NightFall wrote:
Yes, this topic surfaced so many times. Love is powerful, and there is different kinds of loves. It doesn't go away, it's part of life, even if there's so little of it. Love doesn't mean to have sex and create life, because to those who can't have children still do get married out of love, reguardless of reproduction or not. I think in this Transformer world, they don't just fall in love to reproduce only, they just fall in love or lust, because they can or can't help themselves.

Now, I just think hasbro, only any other toy company, writers, etc., avoids the fembots, because they don't want to become a soap opera, or "they" think their kids can't handle it, the exploration of love, sex, or anything complicated like that. Or all together lose money because Transformers can become "uncool", or lose it's pop culture on going fan base, I think?

Well whatever it is, it's really sad and a such a shame.

Pardon me for the double-post, but here's the deal:

You want a soap opera, go watch a soap opera. If you want a kick-arse cartoon/comic/toyline with giant transforming robots, leave it the way it is.

It's not sad, and it's not a shame that they're leaving romance out. I don't wanna see robo-romance. If I want that, I'll introduce my toaster to my heater. G.I. Joe has plenty of what people claim they want to see in Transformers. With relationships, etc, BECAUSE G.I. JOE CHARACTERS ARE HUMAN!!! Why do people want to see romance in Transformers so badly? It's a franchise aimed at kids for crying out loud. Not everything has to be aimed at a set group, and I'm beginning to think that we've all gained a "It has to be what OUR generation wants for the series."

I'm not saying I'm exempt, I'll include myself on that boat, but really, they're a lot of selfishness creeping into Transfandom from the G1 generation, IMO.

Damolishor, TransFormers already had romance in it between TF characters. IT happened. Optimus Prime had Elita-1 as a lover. Ironhide had Chromia. Inferno had Firestar. Powerglide had Moonracer. Hot Rod and Springer were romantic rivals over Arcee. Romance abounded among Transformers.

They weren't lovers, and Hot Rod and Springer weren't rivals over anything. Powerglide, Ironhide and Inferno weren't shown as anything more than friends with their counterparts, Optimus and Elita were said to be boyfriend and girlfriend, but I didn't see any mushy romantic crap coming out of that one, and whilst Arcee was shown caring deeply about Springer and Hot Rod, you'd have to say the same relationship between her and Springer applied to her and Daniel, since she showed more emotion toward Daniel than she did toward Springer OR Hot Rod.

And why would YOU be correcting Simon Furman on genders in Transformers? He's created most Transformers fiction, if anyone would know about Transformers and reproducing, it'd be him. Where the HELL do you get "Living organisms" from? I keep seeing you beating this dead horse over and over again in your arguments, yet you provide no proof outside of a throwaway line from a movie written by someone who's had nothing to do with Transformers before!

you also seem to be 'beating this dead horse over and over', with the exact same arguements against!

Excuse me? I provide proof, and I'm giving new examples. And Tramp, for God's sake, they're robots. Hence the tagline "Robots in Disguise." Not "Technoorganic beings in disguise", "Robots in Disguise." Self repair systems= Internal mechanisms fixing wires, etc, similar to a futuristic anti-virus. Anything sentient IS a life form. I mean, what are they gonna say? "We're the Transformers, and we're zombies?" Lifeform doesn't mean organic. Yes, they can think and feel, but they're robots. A Life Essence is another term for a spark. Look at ANY internal diagram, you do not see any genitalia, or anything REMOTELY resembling internal organs. And untapped potential refers to their intelligence and ability to create new bodies, etc. When you refer to untapped potential, you refer to abilities and intelligence.

And It's DamolishEr, not damolishOr. (Just so you know. And knowing is half the battle. *G.I. Joe theme plays in background.*)

Damolisher wrote:Excuse me? I provide proof, and I'm giving new examples. And Tramp, for God's sake, they're robots. Hence the tagline "Robots in Disguise." Not "Technoorganic beings in disguise", "Robots in Disguise." Self repair systems= Internal mechanisms fixing wires, etc, similar to a futuristic anti-virus. Anything sentient IS a life form. I mean, what are they gonna say? "We're the Transformers, and we're zombies?" Lifeform doesn't mean organic. Yes, they can think and feel, but they're robots. A Life Essence is another term for a spark. Look at ANY internal diagram, you do not see any genitalia, or anything REMOTELY resembling internal organs. And untapped potential refers to their intelligence and ability to create new bodies, etc. When you refer to untapped potential, you refer to abilities and intelligence.

And It's DamolishEr, not damolishOr. (Just so you know. And knowing is half the battle. *G.I. Joe theme plays in background.*)

No, Damolisher, you haven't provided proof. All you have done is spout one line taken out of context. Secondly, no one os disputing that they are robots. The point is that they are more than just Robots. They are robotic [blife[/b]. Also, I am the one who said that life does not have to be organic. However, it does need to follow a specific set of criteria, and that criteria includes the capactiy to reproduce through autopoietic means. In other words, they have to be capable of self reproduction either sexually or asexually. This is a requirement for life. Nothing that is life can go without the ability to self-reproduce otherwise that life cannot continue to a new generation. Anti-virus programs do not fixe physical damage. All they do is remove a virus that has corrupted a computer's programming. It can't do anything to a damaged circuit. or a burnt out motherboard. Also, Sentience is not a requirement for life, and not all life is sentient. Plants are not sentient. Most animals are not sentient. They are not self-aware.

Life requires seven things: homeostasis, organization, metabolism, growth, adaptation, response to stimuli, and reproduction. That is all, but unless it meets all seven of those criteria, it is not life.

Given time, we could build a sentient computer, but that would not make it alive. In Star Wars, R2D2 and C-3PO, as well as most droids are sentient. However, they are not alive. They are not life forms, just advanced machines. Transformers are robotic life forms. They are living beings. This is canon. As such they must meet all seven criteria for life, including the ability to reproduce through autpoietic means either sexually or asexually. Given that they do have both males and females, do engage in courtship between the genders, marry, and there is evidence of small children, that means that they are capable of sexual reproduction. The exact means by which this occurs is left up for debate, but the evidence is clear.

Oh my bloody God, they're robots! Why is it everytime I say robots, you respond with "They life forms!" I know that, I never said they weren't. They are asexual creatures with no genitals AT ALL. They cannot reproduce because they are machines. Jazz said they were machines, THAT'S canon. Life requires the 7 things you listed IN REAL LIFE! NOT FICTION! AND ONLY WITH HUMANS! THEY ARE ROBOTS WHO BUILD OTHER ROBOTS! Stop applying human logic to robots!

You keep trying to treat a fictional medium as if it follows real life laws. When have you ever seen a giant robot in real life? Transformers are sentient robots who can think and feel as Spike stated in the 2nd episode of the cartoon. Transformers isn't real life. Don't apply real world principals of life to a cartoon or comic about robots. They're not humans, they're not from Earth, they are built, not born. Nothing ever shows them being born, and until you can show me an official canon which shows a Transformer sbeing born not built, THEN I'll change my stance. Until then, they are robots, who live by robotic principals, and are alive, but robots, and don't ahve to follow any human principles.

Damolisher wrote:Oh my bloody God, they're robots! Why is it everytime I say robots, you respond with "They life forms!" I know that, I never said they weren't. They are asexual creatures with no genials AT ALL. They cannot reproduce because they are machines. Jazz said they were machines, THAT'S canon. Life requires the 7 things you listed IN REAL LIFE! NOT FICTION! AND ONLY WITH HUMANS! THEY ARE ROBOTS WHO BUILD OTHER ROBOTS! Stop applying human logic to robots!

If the only method of creating new Transformewrs is to build them then they are life forms. Life forms must be able to reproduce through an autopoietic means. In other words self replication, not by building a copy. They have to be able to beget offspring from their own bodies. Secondly, asexual creatures do not have genders at all. They do not have males or females, nor do they have the traits of males or females. They do not engage in courtship, nor marriage. They do not form romantic pairings of any sort because they don't need to in order to procreate. Asexual life forms only need one parent. Asexual life is also restricted to simple life forms, predominantly single-celled organisms. Self-replicating nanites would be asexual. It doesn't work for complex organisms because asexual reproduction does not allow for the variety needed to ensure diversity in the gene-pool. Transformers have genders. This is canon. Transformers engage in courtship. This is canon. I have given you examples from every TF continuity to prove this. They marry. This is canon as exampled in the Victory manga. They have children. This too is canon as also evidenced in Victory as well as the Japanese Beast Wars (either BW2 or BW neo).

Also, no. the seven criteria I gave are not just used in real life. It is also used to determin life in fiction to determine if non-organic life is life. They used that same criteria in Star Trek on numerous occasions. That same critereia is why the Droids of Star Wars are not life forms as well. They don't meet all of the criteria. There is one race of "droid-like" beings that does met all of the criteria. Vuufi Rah from the Lando Callrissian Adventures was one of them. And that is the exception to the rule. Droids do not meet the requirements for life. In science fiction all life forms regardless of if they are organic, silicon based, mechanical, crystaline, energy based or whetever, all still follow those same seven criteria without exception. Therefore, Transformers must do so as well, and there is plenty of evidence that shows that they do.
You are also taking Jazz' statement out of context. He is saying that they are not all-powerful. That they have limitations. Look at the first part of his statement that you keep bringing up— "We are not gods. We are just machines" That would be like me saying, "I am not a god, I am just a man." Jazz is saying they can't do everything. That they aren't omnipotent. He is saying that they are only mortal. That is all he is saying. You are misinterpreting the meaning of the statement.

FOR THE LOVE OF.... THEY DO NOT GET MARRIED OR HAVE CHILDREN. Claiming that Manga is canon is like calling the book Transformers: Car Show Blow up Canon. How do you know it's canon? What tells you it's canon? Once again: Transformers: Robots in Disguise. Nothing more, nothing less, they are machines, they are not humans, they do not reproduce, there is no relaible source which indicates they reproduce, THEY ARE **** BUILT OUT OF **** FACTORIES!! What the hell do laws written for Star Trek have to do with Transformers? Nothing. Abso-freaking-lutely nothing! You are trying to import things from other series to use to justify Transformers reporducing and being like humans! This is a ridiculous argument!

Damolisher wrote:FOR THE LOVE OF.... THEY DO NOT GET MARRIED OR HAVE CHILDREN. Claiming that Manga is canon is like calling the book Transformers: Car Show Blow up Canon. How do you know it's canon? What tells you it's canon? Once again: Transformers: Robots in Disguise. Nothing more, nothing less, they are machines, they are not humans, they do not reproduce, there is no relaible source which indicates they reproduce, THEY ARE **** BUILT OUT OF **** FACTORIES!! What the hell do laws written for Star Trek have to do with Transformers? Nothing. Abso-freaking-lutely nothing! You are trying to import things from other series to use to justify Transformers reporducing and being like humans! This is a ridiculous argument!

Excuse me, but the Japanese series are just as much canon as the US stuff. and the Japanese manga is no different. Therfore, yes, they do indeed marry. The US cartoons show romantic relationships between Transformers as well. There are multiple examples of this, which I have given adnausium.There is canon evidence that says that the use of protoforms is not the only possible methoid of creating new Transformer life. Protoforms are what are built in factories. Another methid which does not require Protoforms would not be created in a factory. Secondly, buliding a body in a factory is allopoietic. creating from outside the self. Life forms must be capable of autopoietic reproduction—self reproduction.The points I broguht forth from other sources are to show that all science fiction follows these same criteria. without exception. Just because Transformers are robotic does not make them exempt from any of these criteria. Without meeting these criteria, they are not life forms, yet canon says specifically that they are.
you don't need to be human to reproduce. You don't need to be organic to reproduce. You do need to be capable of self-reproduction to be a life form, organic, robotic, silicon based, Crystaline or whatever. Ti doesn't matter what the life is made of. It is still bound by these critereia and there is plenty of evidense that says Tramnsformers meet all of that criteria or are capable of doing so. A scarcity of mates would make it difficult to reproduce naturally, thus requiring Protoforms.

Let me ask you this. Was Car Show Blow-Up licensed by Hasbro? If so, then it is part of TF lore even if it doesn't fit into any one of the other existing continuities. It is still part of the exisitng TF canons.

Damolisher, don't pay Tramp any attention. He doesn't understand reason. He likes beating dead horses.

Shadowman wrote:Damolisher, don't pay Tramp any attention. He doesn't understand reason. He likes beating dead horses.

Shadowman. In this discussion, Damolisher and yourself are outnumbered. And, I have more evidence on my side.

Tramp wrote:

Shadowman wrote:Damolisher, don't pay Tramp any attention. He doesn't understand reason. He likes beating dead horses.

Shadowman. In this discussion, Damolisher and yourself are outnumbered. And, I have more evidence on my side.

By who? You and your "lOgIc?"

Damn, I had this cool post where I ABOUT half-way around, and said some pretty clever stuff. Then the board went scrooey-louie.

Basic synopsis:

1. Yes, there was romantic links in G1, HOWEVER, they were only visible if you believed they were there.

2. No, there are no reproductive organs on the Transformers. I assume they are custom built, a la Reploids in Mega Man X.

3. The Mummy was a good movie. (This ties into number 1.)

Shadowman wrote:

Tramp wrote:

Shadowman wrote:Damolisher, don't pay Tramp any attention. He doesn't understand reason. He likes beating dead horses.

Shadowman. In this discussion, Damolisher and yourself are outnumbered. And, I have more evidence on my side.

By who? You and your "lOgIc?"

No, not just by my "logic" by evidence. Evidence that I have repeatedly posted, as well as scientific data regarding what determines if something constitute life or not.

Damn, I had this cool post where I ABOUT half-way around, and said some pretty clever stuff. Then the board went scrooey-louie.

So, it happened to you to?

Basic synopsis:

1. Yes, there was romantic links in G1, HOWEVER, they were only visible if you believed they were there.

No. They are there regardless. Not just if you believe them to be. There is nothing ambiguous about Prime's relationship with Elita-1, or Ironhide's relationship with Chromia, Inferno's with Firestar, or Powerglide's with Moonracer. They are clearly and obviously romantic in nature. And even the source books confirm the love triangle among Hot Rod, Arcee and Springer. Just like Deathsaurus being married is not just if you believe it there. The manga specifically calls Esmeryl his wife. They are all romantic relationships, another indication of sexual reproduction, since only sexually reproductive organisms engage in courtship.

2. No, there are no reproductive organs on the Transformers. I assume they are custom built, a la Reploids in Mega Man X.

You don't know that for certain. We can't see the reproductive organs on reptiles or birds because they are internal. Secondly, there is at least one Maximal from Beast Wars Neo who has external testicles in his beast mode—Heinlad. You can find him in the database. He had a habit of playing them like bongos.

3. The Mummy was a good movie. (This ties into number 1.)

How? What does The Mummy have to do with this discussion?

Transformers are robotic life forms. This is clearly stated in canon. As life forms, they must meets seven criteria, which includes autopoietic reproduction through either asexual or sexual means. Given that they have genders—which only sexually reproducing life forms have—and they engage in courtship, as well as long term romantic pair bonds including marriage, on top of there being Cybertronian children, and that canon specifically states that the use of protoforms is not the only possible method of creating new TF life, strongly indicates that they are fully capable of sexual reproduction in some form.

Tramp wrote:

3. The Mummy was a good movie. (This ties into number 1.)

How? What does The Mummy have to do with this discussion?

It's one of my favorite movies. It was the key to getting me into ancient mythologies.

But it tied to my first point in that the fictional city in The Mummy, Hamunaptra, can only be seen by those who believe it's there, much like my point about TF romance.

Or something like that.

Shadowman wrote:

Tramp wrote:

3. The Mummy was a good movie. (This ties into number 1.)

How? What does The Mummy have to do with this discussion?

It's one of my favorite movies. It was the key to getting me into ancient mythologies.

But it tied to my first point in that the fictional city in The Mummy, Hamunaptra, can only be seen by those who believe it's there, much like my point about TF romance.

Or something like that.

The problem is your point about TF romance is a fallacy. The TF romances were real and intentional in the story. They wre a major part of the plot. Especially the romance between Prime and Elita-1.

Will you please stop using a manga no-one's ever seen or cares about as an argument? If that manga's canon, Robot Masters and Kiss Players Manga must be canon too. And I fail to see how Shadowman and I are outnumbered. You and Thunderthrust are the only ones arguing in your favour, whereas Shadowman, myself, and the new poster a few pages back disagree. That's 2 vs 3 in my estimation. Oh, and I was being facetious about car-Show Blow-up, it'd have to be licensed by Hasbro to see the light of day, and no, it isn't Canon because it's licensed, since it doesn't fit into any continuity, due to inconsistencies with both comic and cartoon, which proves your definition of canon is FALSE.

Damolisher wrote:Will you please stop using a manga no-one's ever seen or cares about as an argument? If that manga's canon, Robot Masters and Kiss Players Manga must be canon too.

Technically, they are. They are part of the official Japanes line, are they not? They have an official story line and continuity. Remember, The TF canon covers multiple timelines and continuities, all of which happen simultaniously. Therfore, any officialy licensed line and story fits within canon, just in different continuities. Victory is part of the G1 continuity, with slight differences between the manga and the anime, particularly at the end of the series.

This is Esmeryl, Deathsaurus' wife:



You can also see the children of the Dino Force in the back ground too.

Besides, I have also shown you direct evidence from US continuities which also states quite clearly that bulding protoforms is not to only method possible for creating new TF life. I gave you a direct quote with page number. I have given you solid evidence of specific romantic relationships in both G1 and other continuities. I have shown you evidence which state that they have a genetic code, as well as solid scientific fact regarding what is the requirements for something to be life, and shown why Transformers need to meet those requirements, and how evidence shows that they do. Something cannot be alive if they have to build new mwmbers of its kind in a factory. They have to be able to do so from their own bodies. Evidence strongly suggests that Cybertronians can. and the fact that they have genders indicates that the method is some form of sexual reproduction. What form that takes is up for debate, but the evidence strongly supports it none the less.

You are lookign at one quote from a character, taken completely out of context, and can't look past the idea of them being robotic. Whether they are robotic, crystaline, organic, silicon based or anything else for that matter. What the basis of their make-up is, is completely irrelevant. They are still life forms and as such need to meet certain criteria, and evidence does indeed indicate that they do meet all of those criteria including the capability of autopoietic reproduction through sexual means. The only thing preventing it during G1 is a scarcity of females.