The Energon Pub

Tramp wrote:

Siren Prime wrote:

Tramp wrote:

Siren Prime wrote:I don't know, I just don't think of it that way.
Maybe it's just the fact that I'd find it extremely wierd for a femme to be pregnant.
If I could explain, I guess my view of the Transformers is that they are not organic so much as they are mechanic with organic tendencies (you know, love, personality).
And I know what nanites are, but for the whole time I've been a TF fan, I've never heard them mentioned.

TF: More than Meets the Eye # 8 refers to them as internal regeneration circuitry. It's the same thing—microscopic self-replicating circuitry and machines which rebuild damaged systems, ultimately healing damage, just like our own cells replicate to heal our injuries. Transformers use CR chambers to boost this healing. That same type of regenerative circuitry system could also be used for reproduction.

Okay, fair enough.
But I still don't agree.

Think past "organic" or "inorganic". These are life forms, as such, they have to be capable of reproducing in order to propegate the species. All life reproduces through either asexual or sexual means. These are the only options. These can take the form of budding, mitosis, or spores in the cae of asexual reproduction, or, for sexual reproduction, in the form of pollenation, internal fertilization (sex), or external fertilization (like frogs and some fish). All require the merging of cells containing half of each parent's genetic makeup. Examples of non-organic life using asexual reproduction can be found in a number of stories including Star Trek: TNG. the little flying saucer aliens from [b]Battereies Not Included[/i] are a perfect example of machine-based life which uses internal sexual reproduction and internal genstation. The little female gets pregnant and has babies. Other than size and lack of the ability to transform, they are no different than Cybertronians. In the TF universe itself, we have the Lithonians from the '86 TF the Movie. There we clearly have males, females and small children running around.

UltraPrimal wrote: I've seen some fan art on here of anime girls wearing only TF armor

Tramp wrote:Emotions have nothing to do with being organic or inorganic. That doesn't enter into the equation. In TF canon, we have several examples of courtship and romance between make and female transformers. Optimus Prime and Elita-1 are a romantic couple, as are Ironhide and Chromia, Inferno and Firestar, and Powerglide and Moonracer. Both Hotrod and Springer have a romantic rivalry over Arcee. In Beast Wars Black Arachnia and Silverbolt become lovers even though they are on opposiet sides of the war. In the manga version of Victory, Deathsaurus had a wife named Esmeryl, Liozak had a sister named Lyzak, and the Dinoforce all had children. In Cybertron Thunderblast had the hots for Megatron, She also had certain anatomical assets too under her armor which often peeked out when she raised her arms. And, Overide and Hotshot were constantly flirting during their races. Courtship and romantic pairing serves only one purpose, and that is reproduction. It doesn't matter if they are organic, techno-organic, mechanical, silicon based, carbon based, crystaline, or what-have-you.

autobot comander wrote:

UltraPrimal wrote: I've seen some fan art on here of anime girls wearing only TF armor

have a link to where i can see those?

Tramp wrote:Very true, however, from an evolutionary, biological, and ecological standpoint, the purpose for romantic love is for reproduction. What benefit to the species as a whole is romantic love? What purpose does it serve? It serves to bring males and females together so that they can mate and hopefully produce offspring. That is its sole purpose to a species. It is reproductive. That is how it evolved. It's an emotional and hormonal response to a biological drive that we all have whether or not an individual can have children or not. Male meets female, they fall in love and courtship and mating commences, which furthers the propegation of the species. A nonorganic species is no different in that regard. Also, consider this, Such emotions are only found in sexual beings, not asexual ones. Asexual life forms have no need for them. Asexual life forms have no need for gender identities, since they have no genders; they have no sexes.

Tramp wrote:No, it isn't the same thing. Can a computer heal? No. Can a computer grow? No. Can a computer learn, or sense its environment? No. Does a computer metabolize fuel? No. A computer is not a life form. TransFormers are. That doesn't make them gods. Also, technically, we too are machines. By definition an machine is simply, "an apparatus consisting of interrelated parts with separate functions, used in the performance of some kind of work". By that definition, all life forms are a type of machine. What puts us above ordinary machines is we are alive. This is also true of TransFormers. They are liveing machines, just as we are, but instead of being organic, they are techno-organic; mechanical, based on nanites, circuitry and metal instead of carbon. That is the only real difference.

NightFall wrote:
Yes, this topic surfaced so many times. Love is powerful, and there is different kinds of loves. It doesn't go away, it's part of life, even if there's so little of it. Love doesn't mean to have sex and create life, because to those who can't have children still do get married out of love, reguardless of reproduction or not. I think in this Transformer world, they don't just fall in love to reproduce only, they just fall in love or lust, because they can or can't help themselves.

Now, I just think hasbro, only any other toy company, writers, etc., avoids the fembots, because they don't want to become a soap opera, or "they" think their kids can't handle it, the exploration of love, sex, or anything complicated like that. Or all together lose money because Transformers can become "uncool", or lose it's pop culture on going fan base, I think?

Well whatever it is, it's really sad and a such a shame.

Damolisher wrote:
They're robots. Ever seen the Red Dwarf episode "Nanobots?" Nanobots= small robots which do repairs. A computer can heal itself with Anti-Virus software, and can do repairs. Transformers are made from circuits. Look at the internal circuits of any Transformer in any cartoon or comic there's been the inside of a Transformer shown. No Organics full stop. It wouldn't make sense for a warrior robot to be pregnant in any case, because what good is a bed ridden troop with a "Baby" in a war?

I don't know where Techno-organics came into it, but there's no way Transformers can have babies. It's impossible, whatever spin you put on it. They're futuristic machines, not techno-organic. Their personalities are caused by circuits and internal components, not an organic brain.They are robots, made of robotic parts, with robotic components. Look at G1 Media, etc, and in no cartoon or comic (Outside of *Blech* Beast Machines) do you see any element of techno-organics. Same goes for comics, outside of convention comics. As Jazz said, they're fancy machines. Not techno-organics. They aren't cyborgs, they're robots.

Damolisher wrote:

NightFall wrote:
Yes, this topic surfaced so many times. Love is powerful, and there is different kinds of loves. It doesn't go away, it's part of life, even if there's so little of it. Love doesn't mean to have sex and create life, because to those who can't have children still do get married out of love, reguardless of reproduction or not. I think in this Transformer world, they don't just fall in love to reproduce only, they just fall in love or lust, because they can or can't help themselves.

Now, I just think hasbro, only any other toy company, writers, etc., avoids the fembots, because they don't want to become a soap opera, or "they" think their kids can't handle it, the exploration of love, sex, or anything complicated like that. Or all together lose money because Transformers can become "uncool", or lose it's pop culture on going fan base, I think?

Well whatever it is, it's really sad and a such a shame.

Pardon me for the double-post, but here's the deal:

You want a soap opera, go watch a soap opera. If you want a kick-arse cartoon/comic/toyline with giant transforming robots, leave it the way it is.

It's not sad, and it's not a shame that they're leaving romance out. I don't wanna see robo-romance. If I want that, I'll introduce my toaster to my heater. G.I. Joe has plenty of what people claim they want to see in Transformers. With relationships, etc, BECAUSE G.I. JOE CHARACTERS ARE HUMAN!!! Why do people want to see romance in Transformers so badly? It's a franchise aimed at kids for crying out loud. Not everything has to be aimed at a set group, and I'm beginning to think that we've all gained a "It has to be what OUR generation wants for the series."

I'm not saying I'm exempt, I'll include myself on that boat, but really, they're a lot of selfishness creeping into Transfandom from the G1 generation, IMO.

Predaprince wrote:Why should we or a company state what TF is for boys and what TF is for girls?

Shouldn't we all be allowed to enough whichever TF we want no matter what our gender, race, religion, and so forth is?

This sounds a little 1984-ish to me.

Mr Furman, I have been a fan of the TransFormers since their inception, and have read most of your work published here in the US. One thing that you have been attributed as saying is your aversion to the concept of female Transformers or genders among them in general because you can't grasp why robots would need genders. The thing is though that Transformers aren't "just" robots. They are living beings. They are life forms. Whether they are mechanical or organic doesn't matter. They are still alive. As Optimus Prime put it in the new live action movie, "We are autonomous robotic organisms from the planet Cybertron. (Emphasis mine). As life forms, they have to follow certain criteria, otherwise they aren't really life. This site here: http://www.physicalgeography.net/fundamentals/9a.html defines these criterea as:

(1). Living things must have a program to make copies of themselves from generation to generation. This program would describe both the parts that make up the organisms and the processes that occur between the various parts. These processes are of course the metabolic reactions that take place in a living thing allowing it to function over time. In most living systems, the program of life is encoded in DNA.
(2). Life adapts and evolves in step with external changes in the environment. This process is directly connected to life’s program through mutation and natural selection. This condition allows life-forms to be optimized for gradual changes in the environment.
(3). Organisms tend to be complex, highly organized, and most importantly have compartmentalized structures. Chemicals found within their bodies are synthesized through metabolic processes into structures that have specific purposes. Cells and their various organelles are examples of such structures. Cells are also the basic functioning unit of life. In multi-cellular organisms, cells are often organized into organs to create higher levels of complexity and function.
(4). Living things have the ability to take energy from their environment and change it from one form to another. This energy is usually used to facilitate their growth and reproduction. We call the process that allows for this facilitation metabolism.
(5). Organisms have regeneration systems that replace parts of themselves that are subject to wear and tear. This regeneration can be partial or it can involve the complete replacement of the organism. Complete replacement is necessary because partial replacements cannot stop the unavoidable decline in the functioning state of the entire living system over time. In other words, all organisms degrade into a final non-functioning state we call death.
(6). Living creatures respond to environmental stimuli through feedback mechanisms. Cues from the environment can cause organisms to react through behavior, metabolism, and physiological change. Further, responses to stimuli generally act to increase a creature’s chance for day-to-day survival.
(7). Organisms are able to maintain numerous metabolic reactions even in a single instance in time. Living things also keep each of these reactions separated from each other.

A more simplified list of the same criteria can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life in this list
Conventional definition: Often scientists say that life is a characteristic of organisms that exhibit the following phenomena:

1. Homeostasis

: Regulation of the internal environment to maintain a constant state; for example, sweating to reduce temperature.
2. Organization: Being composed of one or more cells, which are the basic units of life.
3. Metabolism: Consumption of energy by converting nonliving material into cellular components (anabolism) and decomposing organic matter (catabolism). Living things require energy to maintain internal organization (homeostasis) and to produce the other phenomena associated with life.
4. Growth: Maintenance of a higher rate of synthesis than catalysis. A growing organism increases in size in all of its parts, rather than simply accumulating matter. The particular species begins to multiply and expand as the evolution continues to flourish.
5. Adaptation: The ability to change over a period of time in response to the environment. This ability is fundamental to the process of evolution and is determined by the organism's heredity as well as the composition of metabolized substances, and external factors present.
6. Response to stimuli: A response can take many forms, from the contraction of a unicellular organism when touched to complex reactions involving all the senses of higher animals. A response is often expressed by motion, for example, the leaves of a plant turning toward the sun or an animal chasing its prey.
7. Reproduction: The ability to produce new organisms. Reproduction can be the division of one cell to form two new cells. Usually the term is applied to the production of a new individual (either asexually, from a single parent organism, or sexually, from at least two differing parent organisms), although strictly speaking it also describes the production of new cells in the process of growth.

IF you notice one of those criterai is the ability to reproduce. All living things have to be able to self-propegate the species through either asexual or sexual means. Building a body is not the same thing. Simple life forms use Asexual reproduction, while complex ones use sexual reproduction, and that is what genders are for. In every incarnation of the Transformers as far back as the G1 cartoon, with the introduction of Elita-1 and her crew and Arcee, all the way up through Cybertron with Thunderblas and Override, there have been female Transformers, and romance among Transformers. Optimus Prime and Elita-1 were a couple, as were Ironhide and Chromia, Inferno and Firestar, and Powerglide and Moonracer. Hot Rod and Springer were rivals for Arcee's affections. In the Japanese manga version of Victory , the Decepticon Deathsaurus even had a wife named Esmeryl, Leozak had had a sister named Lyzak, and the Dino Force had children. The original animated movie showed the Lithonians with men, women and small children running around, and Wheelie was referred to as a "boy"—a child. What purpose is romance and courtship except for reproduction? That is its only purpose. The Dreamwave comics, which you were a part of, hinted at some of this as well. Though you didn't write it, TF More than Meets the Eye #8 by Adam Patyk and Brad Mick, provides some interesting food for thought. It states that Transformers have a genetic structure, which only living things have. It also states that imbuing protoforms with a spark is not the only possible method of creating new TF life. As it states under the section on Protoforms on page 15, "It is believed that Cybertronians have other untapped potential for creating new life, but it is unclear what missing components are necessary to complete this system." As has also been established by Arcee's bio in MtMTE #1, Female Transformers are extremely rare, according to existing canon. That would make sexual reproduction also extremely rare, thus the need for using protoforms like we might use cloning. But, that could be the missing component—more females. What happened to most of the femmes? That, unfortunately, never got addressed before DW went belly-up.

A great example of sexual reproduction among a robotic species of life was in the movie Batteries Not Included, starring Jessica Tandy. In it the movie were these little robotic "flying saucer" aliens, including a mated pair. The female flying saucer alien got pregnant and gave birth to little baby flying saucer aliens.

If you want a reason for why Transformers should have genders, even though they are robotic in nature, it is because as life forms, they need to be able to self-propegate their kind through Autopietic means. And, since they are extremely complex life forms, and we do have examples of genders in TF canon, males and females, sexual reproduction is why they should have genders in the series. Obviouslky we wouldn't need to see them "going at it", being TransFormers is primarily meant for kids, but it does give you a reason for genders. Whether life is organic, mechanical, crystaline, carbon based, silicon based, or what-have-you, it still needs to self-propegate. It still needs to reproduce. Building new models on an assembly line is not the same thing. That isn't reproduction, and without the capability to self-reproduce, they wouldn't really be life forms, which according to TF canon, they are.
If you don't think of Transformers as just robots, but instead focus on them being life forms, then the reason for genders among them, and female Transformers becomes a given. Reproduction is the reason.

Predaprince wrote:OOOOKKKKK.

That was my first post in this thread and it was directed to the original poster of the thread.

The belief that a different type of TF needs to be made specifically for girls only is fine, but if it does happen it should not be pushed that only males collect from this type of TF and only females collect from the other type.

It is fine if they make a few TFs like you are saying, but I was warning about the POSSIBILITY that it would separate and control members of the fandom based on gender.

slycherrychunks wrote:While I'm not against the idea of "female" transformers like Arcee and Thunderblast (actually, I really like them), I do not accept that transformers have genders, just that some transformers have characteristics that humans perceive as feminine.

Why these transformers have robo-boobs and robo-curves is a different argument altogether though and one I don't I have an answer for.


I've skimmed through this thread and people are saying that transformers are LIFEFORMS so they MUST have genders and MUST reproduce somehow. First of all, these are creatures that live for millions of years, can instantly adapt to any environment and are much more resilient than the average organic-based life form. Why would they have the same drives to form relationships and reproduce as humans? As much as you guys want to force romance and happy families into transformers fiction, the main reason people do it is for survival and transformers are infinitely better suited for survival than humans so the drive to go forth and multiply wouldnt be as pronounced.

Secondly, why do people revert to the human model of reproduction? Two transformers "doing it"? It would make much more sense to me if new transformers were spawned from Cybertron itself (Primus as the Queen Bee, so to speak). They get their personalities from Vector Sigma right? Actually, The Key To Vector Sigma and Starscream's Brigade offered satisfactory explainations of how new transformers are made.

slycherrychunks wrote:While I'm not against the idea of "female" transformers like Arcee and Thunderblast (actually, I really like them), I do not accept that transformers have genders, just that some transformers have characteristics that humans perceive as feminine.

Why these transformers have robo-boobs and robo-curves is a different argument altogether though and one I don't I have an answer for.


I've skimmed through this thread and people are saying that transformers are LIFEFORMS so they MUST have genders and MUST reproduce somehow. First of all, these are creatures that live for millions of years, can instantly adapt to any environment and are much more resilient than the average organic-based life form. Why would they have the same drives to form relationships and reproduce as humans? As much as you guys want to force romance and happy families into transformers fiction, the main reason people do it is for survival and transformers are infinitely better suited for survival than humans so the drive to go forth and multiply wouldnt be as pronounced.

Secondly, why do people revert to the human model of reproduction? Two transformers "doing it"? It would make much more sense to me if new transformers were spawned from Cybertron itself (Primus as the Queen Bee, so to speak). They get their personalities from Vector Sigma right? Actually, The Key To Vector Sigma and Starscream's Brigade offered satisfactory explainations of how new transformers are made.