The Energon Pub

Tramp wrote:

slycherrychunks wrote:

Tramp wrote:Also, look at this screencap. It is Ironhide and Chromia. You can't tell me that this image isn't two lovers embracing.

That is clearly the heimlich maneuver.

I'm not going to waste your time, but I could post 101 screengabs of the bots grabbing each other and struggling and say "look, theyre in love!!!1"

There is is huge difference between grappling, and showing affection. Chromia and Ironhide are clearly showing affection for one another.

But first I want you to post screenshots of Moonracer cuddling Powerglide and Firestar cuddling Inferno - because thats what you said they did in your previous post.

Do you want to see the episode for yourself? Youtube has it in Spanish (unfortunately, because I can't understand Spanish to save muy life), in three parts. Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfiRRW3PXYo&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCzLMdijGlE&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLzJZWmC9HI

The aliens from the Alienseries have a biology and reproductive system more along the lines of ants, termites, and bees. They're hive creatures. males mate with a single Queen who produces all of the offspring for the hive. She lays her egs which hatch out "face-hugger' larvae which then seek out a host in order to implant the pupae which feed and metamorph into an adult.

oh wow do they i didnt know that

And Aliens have far too many human qualities to be dismissed as insectoid. They have a queen, Transformers have Primus.

They're insects. They have an exoskeliton, not and endoskeliton. They are clearly arthopods in form and body struture. They're even referred to as "bugs" in Aliens. What makes them so dangerous is that thay also take on some of the genetic characteristics of their hosts. That is where you get your "human qualities" from. Also, Primus is the Transformers' god. That is a far cry from an insect hive's Queen.

Read my post. Do you want this thread to get locked?

I was already posting when that was posted. I didn't even see it until after my post was up. You will notice, it came up right after yours.

Transformers reproduce through "artificial" means because
they are machines. Living machines, but machines none the
less. There is pretty credible imagery implying the Lithones
could reproduce "naturally" but it was never stated as canon.

Also Cybertronians rely on the (Creation Matrix, Matrix,
Pit, Oracle, Vector Sigma, Allspark, and/or Primus)
to give them their Sentience.
They could in theory produce a dynamic growing body for a
new transformer from their own substance especially as of
Beast Wars and the new movie since both show signs of
"Nano-machine" level technology. It is for the gift of
self awareness that they must rely on these techno-Spiritual
Macguffins for.

Two other issues I have with your arguments Tramp:

1: Primus and Unicron are Gods.
In scale only. Neither created the universe, nor can they
defy natural/quantum laws of the universe in which they
both reside.

2: Any reference to post Headmasters animation as canon.
Please. I love my Victory Saber as much as the next
Transfan who has one, but that stuff was absolutely
ridiculous. It was as if DBZ (which I truly enjoyed on
it's own crazy merits) had chewed up Transformers and
then vomited out those poor excuses for sequels.

As for the age old issue of why there are female Autobots
and also why there were no female Decepticons originally
is covered in season 3 of the cartoon. The Autobots were
a consumer robot line made primarily for humanoid organics
to use for luxury and labor. The Decepticons were produced
as a combat model. The Quintessons decided to make two
genders for the Autobots to broaden the market appeal.
The Decepticons were fine as is with one nuetral/male
design. The different genders in Autobots was for esthetics
not reproductive function nothing more, nothing less.

I like to think of Transformers having genders, being in love, and having children too.
Some people just can stand it though...
I personally like thinking of little transformer children with the child bodies too, though!!
My theory is that if a transformer couple want children then they take samples of their sparks, put them into a machine of sorts, and Primus does the rest.
That's just my fan-theory though.
It's nice to meet someone else with flexible thoughts though. ^^

That's a pretty cool idea, but then you have to think about where Six-changers come from. A polygamist transformer family, maybe?

Doctor Paragon wrote:1: Primus and Unicron are Gods.
In scale only. Neither created the universe, nor can they
defy natural/quantum laws of the universe in which they
both reside.

actually they are or were gods. If you look at transformers #74 'the void', you will see the depiction of the gods Unicron and Primus, and their decent into mortality!

slycherrychunks wrote:And besides, Prime hugs Bumblebee as a man and woman in love would, Sandstorm takes Octane to a restaurant as a man and woman in love would and Starscream chains Tracks to a giant speaker system as a man and woman in love would, so as I've said before (almost as many times as you've wrote Autopoietic and life forms in bold) you can read anything you like into this junk

when the f*** does prime 'hug' bumblebee? Sandstorm and Octane at the resturant, i think is very clear and obvious that they're 2 guys taking a break on a 'road trip', and Starscream chaining Tracks to a giant speaker system, well if you think thats romantic, i'm never asking you out on a date!

Doctor Paragon wrote:Transformers reproduce through "artificial" means because
they are machines. Living machines, but machines none the
less. There is pretty credible imagery implying the Lithones
could reproduce "naturally" but it was never stated as canon.

Also Cybertronians rely on the (Creation Matrix, Matrix,
Pit, Oracle, Vector Sigma, Allspark, and/or Primus)
to give them their Sentience.
They could in theory produce a dynamic growing body for a
new transformer from their own substance especially as of
Beast Wars and the new movie since both show signs of
"Nano-machine" level technology. It is for the gift of
self awareness that they must rely on these techno-Spiritual
Macguffins for.

Two other issues I have with your arguments Tramp:

1: Primus and Unicron are Gods.
In scale only. Neither created the universe, nor can they
defy natural/quantum laws of the universe in which they
both reside.

2: Any reference to post Headmasters animation as canon.
Please. I love my Victory Saber as much as the next
Transfan who has one, but that stuff was absolutely
ridiculous. It was as if DBZ (which I truly enjoyed on
it's own crazy merits) had chewed up Transformers and
then vomited out those poor excuses for sequels.

As for the age old issue of why there are female Autobots
and also why there were no female Decepticons originally
is covered in season 3 of the cartoon. The Autobots were
a consumer robot line made primarily for humanoid organics
to use for luxury and labor. The Decepticons were produced
as a combat model. The Quintessons decided to make two
genders for the Autobots to broaden the market appeal.
The Decepticons were fine as is with one nuetral/male
design. The different genders in Autobots was for esthetics
not reproductive function nothing more, nothing less.

As Thunder Thruster pointed out, Primus and Unicron were indeed gods, according to canon. On top of that, it is Primus, not the Quintessans, who created the Transformers. The Quintessans simply enslaved them.

As for Victory, yes, it is canon. And, you are also forgetting, as you yourself saisd they are living machines. Key workd is living. Humans are living "machnines", by definition. We may not be mechanical, but that is what we are. The importan part is we are living, and that is the same with Transformers. They too are living. They are life. As such they have to meet the same criteria for life as any other life form.

Primus created the Transformers in the Marvel Comics continuity.

In the cartoon, the Quintessons created them. Primus was NEVER mentioned in the original cartoon.

Here's the info on the Quintessons:

http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Quintessons#Animated_series
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quintessons

Teletraan-1 wrote:n ages long past, a cold and emotionless race of aliens called the Quintessons created 2 lines of sentient robots on a planet-sized factory known as Cybertron. One was a line of robots designed for domestic duties and labor (known as Autobots) and another line designed for military use (known as Decepticons). The Quintessons were exceptionally cruel to their creations, eventually leading to wide-spread rebellion, a rebellion started by the Autobot A3. Forced to flee the planet, the Quintessons eventually settled on the small, twisted planet of Quintessa, but fostered an undying hatred of all Transformers for millions of years.

Wikipedia wrote:Quintessons are fictional aliens from the Transformers universe. Within the TV series, they are the creators of the Transformers, although in most other fictional universes featuring the Transformers, they have no such status.

Shadowman wrote:Primus created the Transformers in the Marvel Comics continuity.

In the cartoon, the Quintessons created them. Primus was NEVER mentioned in the original cartoon.

That is because Primus hadn't been thought of yet. Think about that. Beast Wars was based upon mostly G1 cartoon caninuity. It is supposed to follow from there. They mention Primus. In essence the Primus creation story has been retconned to all TF continuities.

Secondly, Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Anyone can add to it or subtract from it. So, you can't really use it as evidence.

Tramp wrote:

Shadowman wrote:Primus created the Transformers in the Marvel Comics continuity.

In the cartoon, the Quintessons created them. Primus was NEVER mentioned in the original cartoon.

That is because Primus hadn't been thought of yet. Think about that. Beast Wars was based upon mostly G1 cartoon caninuity. It is supposed to follow from there. They mention Primus. In essence the Primus creation story has been retconned to all TF continuities.

Secondly, Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Anyone can add to it or subtract from it. So, you can't really use it as evidence.

You've never heard the word "retcon" before, have you?

This argument is pointless. Transformers could come in a box clearly labelled "These are not organic lifeforms and cannot reproduce" by the creator, and Tramp'd STILL try and argue that they could reproduce. The whole thing about the hugging is the most ridiculous statement I've ever heard, because if that constitutes romance, I must be jumping in the sack with a good majority of my female friends, hell, even some of the MALE ones.

ThunderThruster wrote:

Doctor Paragon wrote:1: Primus and Unicron are Gods.
In scale only. Neither created the universe, nor can they
defy natural/quantum laws of the universe in which they
both reside.

actually they are or were gods. If you look at transformers #74 'the void', you will see the depiction of the gods Unicron and Primus, and their decent into mortality!

slycherrychunks wrote:And besides, Prime hugs Bumblebee as a man and woman in love would, Sandstorm takes Octane to a restaurant as a man and woman in love would and Starscream chains Tracks to a giant speaker system as a man and woman in love would, so as I've said before (almost as many times as you've wrote Autopoietic and life forms in bold) you can read anything you like into this junk

when the f*** does prime 'hug' bumblebee? Sandstorm and Octane at the resturant, i think is very clear and obvious that they're 2 guys taking a break on a 'road trip', and Starscream chaining Tracks to a giant speaker system, well if you think thats romantic, i'm never asking you out on a date!

She was OBVIOUSLY being sarcastic, and He hugs him in Attack of the Autobots after Bumblebee frees him from Megatron's Mind Control. And they STILL can't defy quantum laws, regardless.

Shadowman wrote:

Tramp wrote:

Shadowman wrote:Primus created the Transformers in the Marvel Comics continuity.

In the cartoon, the Quintessons created them. Primus was NEVER mentioned in the original cartoon.

That is because Primus hadn't been thought of yet. Think about that. Beast Wars was based upon mostly G1 cartoon caninuity. It is supposed to follow from there. They mention Primus. In essence the Primus creation story has been retconned to all TF continuities.

Secondly, Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Anyone can add to it or subtract from it. So, you can't really use it as evidence.

You've never heard the word "retcon" before, have you?

Retroactive Continuity. RET CON. Yes, I know exactly what it means, that is why I used the word. My point is that the Quintessan origin has been overridden. Had the cartoon continued, they would have brought Primus into it as well. The Quintessan origins werre not confirmed to be definitive. Just one of many possible origins, and one told from the Quintessan point of view. For all we know the Quint's were lying through theiur teeth.

Yeah, the Quints were lying, even though the ANCIENT AUTOBOTS are the ones who were telling the story of how Transformers were created. And you can't say Primus would've been added to the cartoon. They didn't have religion in the cartoon before, they wouldn't in the future. And you didn't work on the cartoon, so you can't say otherwise. You can cry "Primus!" all you want for the future of the cartoon. I could say that Ironhide's headless ghost would make an appearance, but it doesn't make it fact.

Damolisher wrote:Yeah, the Quints were lying, even though the ANCIENT AUTOBOTS are the ones who were telling the story of how Transformers were created. And you can't say Primus would've been added to the cartoon. They didn't have religion in the cartoon before, they wouldn't in the future. And you didn't work on the cartoon, so you can't say otherwise. You can cry "Primus!" all you want for the future of the cartoon. I could say that Ironhide's headless ghost would make an appearance, but it doesn't make it fact.

How much consistancy was there in the cartoon?. not much. Each episode was pretty self-contained and it often didn't matter what happened in a previous story if they wanted to do something different in a later one. The point is that the origins of the Transformers was left extremely vague, even with the story of the Quintessans. Secondly, the cartoons are but one piece of the puzzle. Every single TF story since the Marvel G1 comics introduced him, has included Primus as their creator. This includes the Japanese series as well. That is how I can say with confidence that if the cartoon had continued, they would have included Primus as their true creator.

IN BEFORE LOCK

Tramp wrote:How much consistancy was there in the cartoon?. not much. Each episode was pretty self-contained and it often didn't matter what happened in a previous story if they wanted to do something different in a later one. The point is that the origins of the Transformers was left extremely vague, even with the story of the Quintessans.

Precisely why you can't take scenarios that were implied in one or two episodes and some sh*tty, obscure japanese manga as cold hard fact.

Oh and Tramp, I have these eps on DVD. I'm still waiting for you to post these pics of Mooracer, Powerglide, Inferno and Firestar all hugging. They must've been edited out of my version.

slycherrychunks wrote:IN BEFORE LOCK

Tramp wrote:How much consistancy was there in the cartoon?. not much. Each episode was pretty self-contained and it often didn't matter what happened in a previous story if they wanted to do something different in a later one. The point is that the origins of the Transformers was left extremely vague, even with the story of the Quintessans.

Precisely why you can't take scenarios that were implied in one or two episodes and some sh*tty, obscure japanese manga as cold hard fact.

Oh and Tramp, I have these eps on DVD. I'm still waiting for you to post these pics of Mooracer, Powerglide, Inferno and Firestar all hugging. They must've been edited out of my version.

Sly, I've posted the links to the episodes. Secondly, this is based on more than just the G1 cartoon. It is based upon the entirety of TF lore as well as science. and you cannot argue with the science. The scenerios I gave you though were not implied. They were specifically written into the story. If you can't see those connections something is seriously wrong.

After reading this monster of a headache, I must ask how in the world we got from the main question of, Why are there no TF toy lines for girls, and onto, the Biology of Transfomers. Yeesh.

Firstly I have to agree with Thunderthrust, and as a writer, there are rules that you must follow in order for characters to be belivable. Transformers follow the laws that they are considered lifeforms from cybertron. Due note, that in the show they never refer to themselves as Robots.

Demolisher, you keep wanting G1 proof it seems, as in, in show. Well here are some to show that there is something to the idea that there is biological workings in the transformers. This taken from Teletran one's webpage, A bio-circuit is a component of Transformer anatomy, though its function is not known. Generation 1 cartoon continuity
After Starscream almost accidentally destroyed the Solar Needle, Megatron threatened to permanently deactivate his bio-circuits.

The scene pretty much indicates that Megatron is going to cut off Starscreams bolts, if you will. As for cannon info the G1 cartoon's script is considered as such. It's been stated over and over by writers that the femme bots are the girlfriends of the respective Autobots. To add to this, if you want in cannon proof that there have been implications of relations between female and male transformers, check out all of Rattraps inudeno in Beast Wars, and his "My great Aunt Arcee." Not to mention the fact that a line was cut from Beast Wars for time where Rattrap stated that Silverbolt and BA were going to "Settle down" and have some "little toasters". Yes it was a joke, but there is always some truth to the rats words.

You're assuming that Transfomers are made of the same materials robots here on earth are made of, and that they have the same bodies that "Humans" have. They probably don't have gentialia the way we would, but that doesn't mean they can't produce.

For the person that said that Primus and Unicron can't repoduce, I have two words for you. "Trantulas" and "Tripredicus Council" Both the spiderbot and the trio have been stated by the writers to be spawn of Unicron. This was probably asexual repoduction, but it is still reproduction.

Also you are getting upset at Tramp becuase they keep pointing out the Manga, while I don't consider it cannon, I do consider he movie cannon, and in the show it's been proven that robots can blush. You have to remember that the transformers never refer to themself as robots. When they meet spike and Sparkplug they don't say "Were a bunch of robots." They call themself Autobots, it's the humans that slap on the name Robots to discribe what they are.

And by the way, please stop with the shouting and the screaming, it's rude and only makes you appear to be an illogical person. Your attitude is rather disturbing, and unfortunately, it's due to this attitude that there is a limited number of fembots in existance. Apparently the powers that be are afraid of loosing money from people that just want to see smash up stuff.

As I had to tella friend of mine who went to see the Transfomers movie, they really are intellegent, they just didn't get enough screen time.

But I digress, back to the question at hand. Would a female transformers line be good? Yes I think it would be, could it be directly marketed towards girls? I think if it was done right it could be. Rather then follow the bratz or barbie the femmes could follow what was happening on Cyberton during the time when The autobots were away. OR more interesing, if they wanted to have something closer to Beast Wars and such it could follow new Maximals and Preds.

Plot: While Megatron is on Earth during the Beast wars the Tripredicus launch plans on Cybertron, a group of specialized maximals are sent out to handle these issues. The group is faced with the daunting task in keeping the preds off guard, while keeping the peace. Think a bit like Charlies Angels, but with more interesting characters. It could also help in showing what was going on before the attack by Megatron and Beast Machines. Just to show it wasn't just Primal and Co doing everything. We know Night scream made it, so why not someone else?

Very well said, Night Striker.

Tramp wrote:Inferno and firestar cuddle. Poweclide and Moonracer cuddle.

slycherrychunks wrote:Oh and Tramp, I have these eps on DVD. I'm still waiting for you to post these pics of Mooracer, Powerglide, Inferno and Firestar all hugging. They must've been edited out of my version.

Either you post these screeshots or you admit that the circular logic you use to justify your arguments has no basis in reality.

Everything you have posted about transformers in this topic is speculation, assumption or, for want of a better term fanwank.

EDIT: science doesnt apply to fictional animated cartoon characters. I can argue with science as much as I like

slycherrychunks wrote:

Tramp wrote:Inferno and firestar cuddle. Poweclide and Moonracer cuddle.

slycherrychunks wrote:Oh and Tramp, I have these eps on DVD. I'm still waiting for you to post these pics of Mooracer, Powerglide, Inferno and Firestar all hugging. They must've been edited out of my version.

Either you post these screeshots or you admit that the circular logic you use to justify your arguments has no basis in reality.

Everything you have posted about transformers in this topic is speculation, assumption or, for want of a better term fanwank.

No, it hasn't. And, no I won't I have given you everything I need to, as have others. You said yourself, you have the episodes, watch them. Watch how every time they pair off, Moonracer always pairs with Powerglide. Whatch how Firestar always pairs off with Inferno, and how Chromia always pairs off with Ironhide. Listen to the way they talk to one another. The relationships are obvious, and I am not the only one who has said this. This and the other examples from later story lines are also confirmed fact.
Secondly, the seven criteria that detremine what is and is not life has full basis in reality. They are accepted scientific fact.

Everythign points to the capability of sexual reproduction in Transformers.

Tramp wrote:Watch how every time they pair off, Moonracer always pairs with Powerglide. Whatch how Firestar always pairs off with Inferno

I wasnt asking about that, I was asking about the part where they cuddle.

slycherrychunks wrote:

Tramp wrote:Watch how every time they pair off, Moonracer always pairs with Powerglide. Whatch how Firestar always pairs off with Inferno

I wasnt asking about that, I was asking about the part where they cuddle.

I've given all you need. The only screen caps I have access to are from this site. You aren't getting any more. All the evidence has been given.

Tramp wrote:

slycherrychunks wrote:

Tramp wrote:Watch how every time they pair off, Moonracer always pairs with Powerglide. Whatch how Firestar always pairs off with Inferno

I wasnt asking about that, I was asking about the part where they cuddle.

I've given all you need. The only screen caps I have access to are from this site. You aren't getting any more. All the evidence has been given.

Except for the evidence that prove you right. You still haven't given that.

Shadowman wrote:

Tramp wrote:

slycherrychunks wrote:

Tramp wrote:Watch how every time they pair off, Moonracer always pairs with Powerglide. Whatch how Firestar always pairs off with Inferno

I wasnt asking about that, I was asking about the part where they cuddle.

I've given all you need. The only screen caps I have access to are from this site. You aren't getting any more. All the evidence has been given.

Except for the evidence that prove you right. You still haven't given that.

Actually, yes, I have. I have givne solid scientific criteria, several canon examples of romantic relationships between male and female Transformers, at least one marriage between Cybertronians. Cybertronian children. It is all there. The only thing missing is catching two Cybertronians in the act, and that we will never see because it is a kids show.