The Energon Pub

[ZeldaTheSwordsman]

The coal car is still a separate car from engine. As an alien robot, Astrotrain was presumably capable of self-propulsion and would only have adopted a coal car if someone at the station hooked one up to him.

Half a train still makes for a poor disguise.

Only if you really, really know your trains. Most people wouldn't even notice, a train is a train.
Emerje

Knowing a steam engine needs fuel and water and a way to carry them is ENTRY-LEVEL train knowledge. And see also the part about the exposed shuttle engines.

[Emerje]

The coal car is still a separate car from engine. As an alien robot, Astrotrain was presumably capable of self-propulsion and would only have adopted a coal car if someone at the station hooked one up to him.

Half a train still makes for a poor disguise.

Only if you really, really know your trains. Most people wouldn't even notice, a train is a train.
Emerje

Knowing a steam engine needs fuel and water and a way to carry them is ENTRY-LEVEL train knowledge. And see also the part about the exposed shuttle engines.

I would wager most of the world, including many people on this forum, aren't even at that level when it comes to trains. People drive cars all day without a clue how to change the wipers, some can't even pump their own gas.

Emerje

[Rodimus Prime]

Reiterate statement that the tender is necessary, because it makes Astrotrain's locomotive mode complete finally. After 34 years of it being the engine equivalent of these:
-Images snipped-

Did he have it in the cartoon or the animated movie?

No, because the toy didn't include one and the animation was too cheap and too toy-bound to correct that. But whether it was in the cartoon or not is, in this case, irrelevant.

Your comparison to Fire Convoy is inaccurate, since Fire Convoy was depicted with the back end of the truck in the cartoon. Unlike Astrotrain.

No, it isn't. That doesn't. Slagging. Matter.
Because depicted with a tender or not, Astrotrain's locomotive mode is just as blatantly incomplete without one as RiD and Cybertron Optimus Prime's truck modes are without the back half. Or as incomplete as G1 Optimus Prime's would be if you removed his fuel tanks.

Yet you still miss the point, that being cartoon and/or toy accuracy. Astrotrain did not have a tender in the cartoon or with his G1 figure release. Whether this is accurate to real life is irrelevant. If the WFC toy were to be accurate to its source material, it would have to be without a tender. Therefore my original statement stands. The tender is unnecessary.

And still your comparison to Fire Convoy or even G1 Prime's fuel tanks is also inaccurate. Fire Convoy's back half and Prime's tanks were in their respective cartoons and on their respective original toys. Astrotrain's tender was not.

[Sabrblade]

And still your comparison to Fire Convoy or even G1 Prime's fuel tanks is also inaccurate. Fire Convoy's back half and Prime's tanks were in their respective cartoons and on their respective original toys. Astrotrain's tender was not.

And his point is that the original toy and cartoon should have had the tender because, to him, both look wrong without it.

[Rodimus Prime]

And still your comparison to Fire Convoy or even G1 Prime's fuel tanks is also inaccurate. Fire Convoy's back half and Prime's tanks were in their respective cartoons and on their respective original toys. Astrotrain's tender was not.

And his point is that the original toy and cartoon should have had the tender because, to him, both look wrong without it.

I understand that. But that's his opinion. I'm stating facts.

[-Kanrabat-]

The coal car is still a separate car from engine. As an alien robot, Astrotrain was presumably capable of self-propulsion and would only have adopted a coal car if someone at the station hooked one up to him.

Half a train still makes for a poor disguise.

Only if you really, really know your trains. Most people wouldn't even notice, a train is a train.
Emerje

Knowing a steam engine needs fuel and water and a way to carry them is ENTRY-LEVEL train knowledge. And see also the part about the exposed shuttle engines.

Bullshizz.
No one give a flying fok about trains. The average joe will just groan when a train is crossing the road and the guy must wait for the thing to finally pass and the gates to reopen so that he can finally go on his way.

Also, just pointing out that Astrotrain never cared to pass as a "real" train. When the locomotive have jet engine and is the size of a massive cruise ship to carry an entire army of giant freaking bots inside, you know Astrotrain went for STYLE rather than "disguise".
Case in point, the Siege toy is a cybertronian TANK in "old locomotive" aestetics.
And know what? That's absolutely fine.

[Sabrblade]

To be fair, a tender would help to hide those big honking shuttle thrusters in train mode. The Siege/Earthrise toy's tender hides them quite nicely.

[Gauntlet101010]

This has become about Siege Astrotrain again?

I could appreciate the tender hiding the giant rockets in the back of the train more if the train mode itself was done better.

As it stands, though, the tender gets put aside for two out of the three modes. And it isn't as integral to the vehicle mode's design as Prime's trailer was, to me anyway. I'm a G1 cartoon fan, not a train fan.

[Nemesis Destron]

I don't see Shockwave in Walmart's as much. But why the hell doesn't Target mark that figure down already? That or ship out to discount stores cuz he definitely has had his time shelf warming!

[ZeldaTheSwordsman]

The coal car is still a separate car from engine. As an alien robot, Astrotrain was presumably capable of self-propulsion and would only have adopted a coal car if someone at the station hooked one up to him.

Half a train still makes for a poor disguise.

Only if you really, really know your trains. Most people wouldn't even notice, a train is a train.
Emerje

Knowing a steam engine needs fuel and water and a way to carry them is ENTRY-LEVEL train knowledge. And see also the part about the exposed shuttle engines.

I would wager most of the world, including many people on this forum, aren't even at that level when it comes to trains. People drive cars all day without a clue how to change the wipers, some can't even pump their own gas.

Emerje

But they still know that the car is supposed to have a gas tank, don't they?

I contend that to anyone who knows even a little about steam engines, who has paid the slightest bit of attention to them in better toy form, or in model form, or in pictures in books, or in real life if they've had the pleasure... Astrotrain as depicted by his G1 toy - and, correspondingly, the cartoon - looks blatantly incomplete. He looks like one of those cheapo dollar store locomotive toys that's only the main body. Even back when I was 3 and only understood a little about trains, I knew those were incomplete because being into trains - as many kids are - I had seen steam engines as they are supposed to be.

Yet you still miss the point, that being cartoon and/or toy accuracy. Astrotrain did not have a tender in the cartoon or with his G1 figure release. Whether this is accurate to real life is irrelevant.

From my perspective it's relevant because it makes the G1 toy and cartoon depictions faulty and incomplete; the component they omitted is that important to the real thing. It can't go anywhere under its own power without that part, nor can it hook up to train cars.

On a tangent, I also don't think cartoon accuracy should come at a figure's expense. Primus knows SIEGE Astrotrain suffers from that as it is, considering what having the cartoon chest instead of the G1 toy's shuttle fin chestplate did to his shuttle mode.

And still your comparison to Fire Convoy or even G1 Prime's fuel tanks is also inaccurate. Fire Convoy's back half and Prime's tanks were in their respective cartoons and on their respective original toys. Astrotrain's tender was not.

It is not inaccurate. Because what I am saying is that in the cartoon or not, part of the G1 toy or not, the tender is as essential to the thing he's trying to be, as the back half of RiD Prime's fire truck mode is to that fire truck mode. That much is a fact.
And I say that that essentiality to the basis makes the tender a necessary feature of the toy. That part, is an opinion. I can admit that. A very strong opinion in my case, because I'm as much of a train fan as I am a Transformers fan.

And still your comparison to Fire Convoy or even G1 Prime's fuel tanks is also inaccurate. Fire Convoy's back half and Prime's tanks were in their respective cartoons and on their respective original toys. Astrotrain's tender was not.

And his point is that the original toy and cartoon should have had the tender because, to him, both look wrong without it.

Exactly. Looking at the G1 toy and cartoon depiction is like looking at the steam engine version of this:

I understand that. But that's his opinion. I'm stating facts.

Mmmmm, only half of what you're saying - that the tender was not in the cartoon or part of the original toy - is actually a fact.
Your statement that that makes it unnecessary, that cartoon accuracy should have supremacy in this matter, however? Is as much of an opinion as my statement that it's necessary because it's something the thing he's turning into is supposed to have and cannot function without.

I'm also of the opinion that your real, underlying complaint is that a character you were expecting to be at the Voyager price point if he showed up again wound up at the Leader price point instead, and you resent the additional accessories he has compared to the original toy because you blame them for the price increase.

My perspective on it is that between other characters requiring Voyager slots and the Leader class being an awkward fit for so much of the G1 cast and thus needing to be used more creatively, Astrotrain was going to be stuck at that price point anyway. And that therefore it's a good thing they made it worthwhile by supplying a tender to finally complete his locomotive mode.

This has become about Siege Astrotrain again?

I could appreciate the tender hiding the giant rockets in the back of the train more if the train mode itself was done better.

For the most part I think it's pretty good. I only have three complaints:
1. The narrower front end. Such is the price for him having real feet, especially real feet with ankle tilts.
2. The tender, while an essential piece AFAIC, does look a biiiit much like Armada Optimus' trailer cosplaying as a D51 tender
3. The tender connection isn't hinged.

As it stands, though, the tender gets put aside for two out of the three modes.

*ahem*

And the robot mode can at least make use of it as equipment.

And it isn't as integral to the vehicle mode's design as Prime's trailer was, to me anyway. I'm a G1 cartoon fan, not a train fan.

As someone who's both, I consider it more integral (I mean, a semi cab can function independently of a trailer), and the absence of a tender prior to the SIEGE/ER toy has always bugged me.

Not that I think Prime's trailer is unimportant, mind you; it's a key feature and I would love to see a Commander Class Optimus one of these days so that it can actually be done justice in a non-MP modern figure.

[Gauntlet101010]

The narrower front end.

This right here is what kills that mode for me, never mind a rocket booster pack on the back or the tender. It looks like it should run on four rails. I just can't unsee how unsightly the front end is.

I don't buy that there was no other way to go about doing this. Design-wise the Siege / ER team has had a lot of hits. I just don't buy that they had no solution to the Astrotrain problem. At least one that didn't sacrifice two of the three modes.


Yeah, no. Maybe that use of the tender has it's fans, but it looks terrible.

I got AT for the bot mode because I think it's the best we'll get at that size. Unless another release proves me wrong. But I almost didn't because neither of the other modes look all that great, tender or no tender.

[King Kuuga]

I regret getting involved in this conversation.

[TF-fan kev777]

I regret getting involved in this conversation.

I'm glad I scrolled right past it, I've seen this movie before.

[bacem]

I regret getting involved in this conversation.

I'm glad I scrolled right past it, I've seen this movie before.

Yep, things really take a sharp turn there, from astrotrain's giant hammer to tender accuracy.

[ZeldaTheSwordsman]

The narrower front end.

This right here is what kills that mode for me, never mind a rocket booster pack on the back or the tender. It looks like it should run on four rails. I just can't unsee how unsightly the front end is.

Well, to me it's a relatively minor compromise all things considered. Doesn't bug me as much as the rear end of the shuttle mode.

I don't buy that there was no other way to go about doing this. Design-wise the Siege / ER team has had a lot of hits. I just don't buy that they had no solution to the Astrotrain problem. At least one that didn't sacrifice two of the three modes.

Oh, there was a very simple solution. A design feature that used to be somewhat common. But the problem is that it's a solution the current design team has a bizarre aversion to.

And what is this solution, you might ask?
Give Astrotrain telescoping legs like his original toy had. That way the front of the locomotive wouldn't have had to fold up into the legs, and the feet could have been stored in the halves of the shuttle nosecone instead of doubling as the engine's dome. This would have also benefited the shuttle mode, could well have prevented that mess with the rear end even with them sticking to the stupid cartoon chest.

But nooooo, the design team that has proven so competent at so many other things won't touch telescoping legs with a ten foot pole even when they're the ideal solution.

Yeah, no. Maybe that use of the tender has it's fans, but it looks terrible.

Consider me one of them.

I regret getting involved in this conversation.

I'm glad I scrolled right past it, I've seen this movie before.

Yep, things really take a sharp turn there, from astrotrain's giant hammer to tender accuracy.

Well, there are two strong opinions at play there...
Rodimus Prime resents the tender's existence and perpetually bashes it as "unnecessary" because it wasn't in the show and he blames it for Astrotrain being sold at the Leader price point instead of as a Voyager.

Meanwhile as someone who's both a TF fan and a train fan I firmly defend the tender as the feature Astrotrain's always needed and should have been given in 1986 in the first place.

[Jelze Bunnycat]

But nooooo, the design team that has proven so competent at so many other things won't touch telescoping legs with a ten foot pole even when they're the ideal solution.

Until the catches give out, and they will sooner than later on a toy his size/weight. Hasbro has yet to investigate how to properly implement button-operated locks like those seen on Bandai's SoC's (Those things are HEAVY, so plastic catches are a no-no on them).

Have I mentioned telescoping limbs are a pet peeve of mine?

O yeah, saw something odd at Target: Siege and Earthrise Astrotrain, on the same shelf. Scanned the same too (no surprise).

[ZeldaTheSwordsman]

But nooooo, the design team that has proven so competent at so many other things won't touch telescoping legs with a ten foot pole even when they're the ideal solution.

Until the catches give out, and they will sooner than later on a toy his size/weight. Hasbro has yet to investigate how to properly implement button-operated locks like those seen on Bandai's SoC's (Those things are HEAVY, so plastic catches are a no-no on them).

Have I mentioned telescoping limbs are a pet peeve of mine?

I remember this coming up before, and I submit the same counterargument I did then: I'm talking about telescoping legs with proper spring-loaded catches. Such as used on Cybertron Hot Shot:

Not as strong as outright button-locked, but a lot stronger than the crappy tension-based ones G1 toys (except for Galvatron IIRC) used. They still work fine on the Unicron Trilogy figures I have, and so they should be perfectly adequate for supporting SIEGE Astrotrain's weight (given just how much Transformers have been gutted of mass since then). Unless you've had a different experience with figures from that era?

And yes, I can imagine plastic tension-based catches being unsuitable for Soul of Chogokin. *glowers at G1 Megatron and Shockwave*

[-Kanrabat-]

O yeah, saw something odd at Target: Siege and Earthrise Astrotrain, on the same shelf. Scanned the same too (no surprise).

Same thing during Black Friday at Toys R Us. Siege Astrotrain scanned at 35$CAN (like all other Siege leaders) while ER Astrotrain scanned at 70$CAN (like all other ER leaders.)

I can just imagine the confused parent.

[Nemesis Primal]

But nooooo, the design team that has proven so competent at so many other things won't touch telescoping legs with a ten foot pole even when they're the ideal solution.

Until the catches give out, and they will sooner than later on a toy his size/weight. Hasbro has yet to investigate how to properly implement button-operated locks like those seen on Bandai's SoC's (Those things are HEAVY, so plastic catches are a no-no on them).

Have I mentioned telescoping limbs are a pet peeve of mine?

I remember this coming up before, and I submit the same counterargument I did then: I'm talking about telescoping legs with proper spring-loaded catches. Such as used on Cybertron Hot Shot:

Not as strong as outright button-locked, but a lot stronger than the crappy tension-based ones G1 toys (except for Galvatron IIRC) used. They still work fine on the Unicron Trilogy figures I have, and so they should be perfectly adequate for supporting SIEGE Astrotrain's weight (given just how much Transformers have been gutted of mass since then).

Counter-counterargument: The current design team might have mostly shifted away from that design choice because they actually can't implement it like you're suggesting with a number the designs they've settled on, because as you just pointed out:

(given just how much Transformers have been gutted of mass since then).

The budget and plastic costs for these figures have clearly shifted since the Unicron Trilogy, as gets repeatedly brought up every time someone complains about a figure like Impactor, Ironhide, or Grapple having visible hollow limbs to accommodate their height/parts count. Having grown up through the UT and handled numerous figures that have effective telescoping mechanisms (Energon Landmine comes to mind first), all of the figures that do it right require the larger part of the telescoping limb that houses the mechanism to be a fully enclosed part. For that type of engineering to be used on Astrotrain, his lower legs would have to be completely redesigned not only to change the transformation like you said but also to cover up/enclose his currently-hollow inner calves, which seems like it could have easily cut into the figure's budget enough depending on how those changes were implemented that he might not even have had the tender that you've coveted for so long (and that keeps starting these arguments), as I doubt they would have wanted to cut down on his weaponry that much considering the weapons being part of the line-wide gimmick and designed to all combine, and his arms already have hollows as well to accommodate the current design & transformation, so they can't take from there. This would also be an issue with any other WFC figures featuring hollows in their forearms or calves for the same reason, the design would have to be adjusted to enclose the part presumably by having to take plastic from other parts of the figure.

With that said, they clearly haven't forgotten completely how to do it, seeing as how the Brunt mold from this same line/trilogy has telescoping design for his arms, so for all we know they did consider it more than we think for figures like Astrotrain and cut it for the reasons I said or other ones that we can only guess, we just don't have a way of really finding that out currently. I also could just be totally off-base with this analysis, I'm not a professional toy designer by any means.

[Tuned Agent]

Yet you still miss the point, that being cartoon and/or toy accuracy. Astrotrain did not have a tender in the cartoon or with his G1 figure release. Whether this is accurate to real life is irrelevant.

From my perspective it's relevant because it makes the G1 toy and cartoon depictions faulty and incomplete; the component they omitted is that important to the real thing. It can't go anywhere under its own power without that part, nor can it hook up to train cars.

A bit of a side note, while it does aesthetically improve the train mode, does Astrotrin actually need the tender? I mean, he's always been able to fly around in shuttle mode, even reach escape velocity, without booster rockets.

[ZeroWolf]

Yet you still miss the point, that being cartoon and/or toy accuracy. Astrotrain did not have a tender in the cartoon or with his G1 figure release. Whether this is accurate to real life is irrelevant.

From my perspective it's relevant because it makes the G1 toy and cartoon depictions faulty and incomplete; the component they omitted is that important to the real thing. It can't go anywhere under its own power without that part, nor can it hook up to train cars.

A bit of a side note, while it does aesthetically improve the train mode, does Astrotrin actually need the tender? I mean, he's always been able to fly around in shuttle mode, even reach escape velocity, without booster rockets.

Its more to complete the train disguise, and to provide an impromptu launch pad (and as seen on the last page or the one before that, a big massive hammer...that should have been the official weapon mode!)

[-Kanrabat-]

Yet you still miss the point, that being cartoon and/or toy accuracy. Astrotrain did not have a tender in the cartoon or with his G1 figure release. Whether this is accurate to real life is irrelevant.

From my perspective it's relevant because it makes the G1 toy and cartoon depictions faulty and incomplete; the component they omitted is that important to the real thing. It can't go anywhere under its own power without that part, nor can it hook up to train cars.

A bit of a side note, while it does aesthetically improve the train mode, does Astrotrin actually need the tender? I mean, he's always been able to fly around in shuttle mode, even reach escape velocity, without booster rockets.

It's because hardcore-all-or-nothing Zelda forget that Transformers are ROBOTS IN DISGUISE. They could change into a literal litter box and fly around shooting blue shells without giving a single fox.

As a child and even now, I always saw Astrotrain (and every single other TF) to be pretenders in their altmodes. Especially when they do things in alt that shouldn't be possible.

This tender argument is as pointless as to argue that Soundwave need AA batteries to work in tapedeck mode.

[ZeroWolf]

Yet you still miss the point, that being cartoon and/or toy accuracy. Astrotrain did not have a tender in the cartoon or with his G1 figure release. Whether this is accurate to real life is irrelevant.

From my perspective it's relevant because it makes the G1 toy and cartoon depictions faulty and incomplete; the component they omitted is that important to the real thing. It can't go anywhere under its own power without that part, nor can it hook up to train cars.

A bit of a side note, while it does aesthetically improve the train mode, does Astrotrin actually need the tender? I mean, he's always been able to fly around in shuttle mode, even reach escape velocity, without booster rockets.

It's because hardcore-all-or-nothing Zelda forget that Transformers are ROBOTS IN DISGUISE. They could change into a literal litter box and fly around shooting blue shells without giving a single fox.

As a child and even now, I always saw Astrotrain (and every single other TF) to be pretenders in their altmodes. Especially when they do things in alt that shouldn't be possible.

This tender argument is as pointless as to argue that Soundwave need AA batteries to work in tapedeck mode.

Well to be fair the original G1 toy came with them they just happened to transform as well...

[-Kanrabat-]

TlDr; trying to use logic in Transformers is the sure road to madness.

[ZeroWolf]

I don't know about that, people arguing for size consistency have been rewarded