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Ruh Roh! 3rd Parties!

Do you love your new Hercules set? Can't get enough of FansProject's items? Upset that you bought a knock off when you thought you were getting an original? Use this forum to tell everyone your thoughts about unlicensed and knock off TF products.

Re: Ruh Roh! 3rd Parties!

Postby Jesterhead » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:10 am

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Blurrz wrote:Like honestly, I still can't believe Impossible Toys' Arcee mold was actually capable of being sold. That thing is a piece of garbage and the price tag of $60+ is a bloody joke.


I couldn't agree with this anymore. It looks like hell, and is a ridiculous price point. I can't help but think that if Has\Tak made it, it would ring in as the worst figure of the year. :-?
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Re: Ruh Roh! 3rd Parties!

Postby Prime Evil » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:21 am

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Jesterhead wrote:
Blurrz wrote:Like honestly, I still can't believe Impossible Toys' Arcee mold was actually capable of being sold. That thing is a piece of garbage and the price tag of $60+ is a bloody joke.


I couldn't agree with this anymore. It looks like hell, and is a ridiculous price point. I can't help but think that if Has\Tak made it, it would ring in as the worst figure of the year. :-?


Easily one of the worst molds EVER produced by anyone/anything. Biggest purchase regret I ever had.
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Re: Ruh Roh! 3rd Parties!

Postby Counterpunch » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:25 am

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T-Macksimus wrote:They don't have to spend a dime outside of what they are paying the person to type up and e-mail the intimidation letters. They are approaching this problem of theirs from a long-term, military campaign point-of-view and I have to say that while it may not ultimately get the results that they ideally want it is still a very smart approach to dealing with the problem. Minimal cost and effort on their part and let the opponent slowly damage itself along the way. By going for the retailers instead of the manufacturers they create a situation where they can monopolize an outlet and leave the 3rd party MFG's to slowly wither and disappear. It's worked quite well for companies like Microsoft and Verizon and once Hasbro is forced to join in on the same tactic domestically (and they will be) then it will prove brutally effective for Has/Tak down the road too.


We'll see I suppose. I personally think the open market and monetary demand will beat out lazy legal action any day.
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Re: Ruh Roh! 3rd Parties!

Postby Jelze Bunnycat » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:32 am

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venomfrlife wrote:here's my question... ko transformers are everywhere from e-bay to flee markets to pre made Easter baskets in most retail stores, they come from different manufactures mostly found in Japan & surrounding countries ...Do you think this will signal the end of KO transformers?


Not by a long shot. TakaraTomy is specifically targeting the stores that sell those 3rd toys of semi-original design. Pure KO's and bootlegs remain unaffected, as they're already covered by international copyright law, making them illegal by definition alone. That won't stop the anonymous companies from restarting every single time.
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Re: Ruh Roh! 3rd Parties!

Postby Counterpunch » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:39 am

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JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:Not by a long shot. TakaraTomy is specifically targeting the stores...


A store.

Not store(s).

Maybe...

Because someone heard it in an email?

We'll see in time. For now, I have my doubts and they are Legion, for they are many.
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Re: Ruh Roh! 3rd Parties!

Postby Seibertron » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:58 am

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Jesterhead wrote:Strange they are banning them at the retail level, and not the manufacturers.


If you stop it at the retail level, it makes it very difficult/challenging to obtain these items, which puts a financial strain on the "manufacturers", and saves on the near impossible legal problems that would be faced with going after 3rd party manufacturers in China.
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Re: Ruh Roh! 3rd Parties!

Postby Jesterhead » Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:03 pm

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Seibertron wrote:
Jesterhead wrote:Strange they are banning them at the retail level, and not the manufacturers.


If you stop it at the retail level, it makes it very difficult/challenging to obtain these items, which puts a financial strain on the "manufacturers", and saves on the near impossible legal problems that would be faced with going after 3rd party manufacturers in China.


True, but what responsibility do the individual retailers have concerning 3rd party products? Who is Takara to tell them what they can and what they cannot sell?

So I guess my question is: Is it legally dubious to re-sell a product that infringes on IP?
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Re: Ruh Roh! 3rd Parties!

Postby Blurrz » Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:06 pm

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amcgrath929 wrote:So, tell me how you really feel.. :grin:


Honestly Alex... I really don't know. I'm a fan of vintage toys, but at the same time, I hate to see good products from FP, and other third parties, get blacklisted because the rest of the group ruined it for them. I know more than half of the Seibertron staff loves these toys, and so does more than half of the fandom. It's like how we all had to conform to the rules of Airport Security because a small group of people decided to enact 9/11. Sure, it's not exactly the best comparison seeing as Airport Security is actually a good thing... but yeah, you know what I mean. I wish third parties the best, but the ones who are borderline KOs or decided to melt strawberry baskets and decided to use that plastic to make toys.. then, good riddance.


Counterpunch wrote:
We'll see in time. For now, I have my doubts and they are Legion, for they are many.


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Re: Ruh Roh! 3rd Parties!

Postby Requiem Prime » Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:06 pm

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Dead Metal wrote:
ShardFenix wrote:I think a lot of this has to do with some of the companies and not all. Fansproject is noticeably missing from the list and I wonder why. Im glad they arent though. Interestingly though only the camera set from Perfect Effect is listed. Nothing from MMC either. iGear does push the envelope with some of what they produce I think. The seekers and coneheads may have been a bit far. Crazydevy, well maybe this will lower their prices?

FansProject stuff isn't on this list due to not resembling official designs enough, they just hsare a passing resemblance and do not use actual trademarks.

I guess the Kup head is on this list for the use of Kup in the product name, while Blood uses the same mold for the swords as the original figure. I still hope that comes out though.


I have to agree, for reasons to drop start firing shots and choice of targets, this one makes sense. As much as I love the Perfect Effect Reflector their design is a little too "on the nose". And you know it's not remotely about profit margin because upgrades like the Kup head would only drive sales but I can see where naming names is crossing the line.

The odd one out seems to be Crazydevy, who also makes upgrade kits that aren't strickly speaking reuses of the Takara's molds. Maybe they're on the list for crimes against chromativity.
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Re: Ruh Roh! 3rd Parties!

Postby El Duque » Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:07 pm

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So what's to stop the 3P's from just selling directly to their customers? iGear and CrazyDevy already do.
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Re: Ruh Roh! 3rd Parties!

Postby Seibertron » Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:11 pm

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El Duque wrote:So what's to stop the 3P's from just selling directly to their customers? iGear and CrazyDevy already do.


Nothing other than resources and the desirability to deal directly with customers.
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Re: Ruh Roh! 3rd Parties!

Postby Rated X » Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:12 pm

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Blurrz wrote:
Rated X wrote:Thats a fine way to help boost the economy in a time of need in Japan. (sarcasm) It's also an easy way to get on every collectors s**tlist. And unlike the USA, in Japan the primary market for Transformers is collectors. So there will be many unhappy folks. You are also just sending more business to China. You may be able to stop dealers from setting up shop in Japan, but you cant stop the mail.

Takara, if you want to compete with the 3rd party market, step up your game and give the fans what they ask for. Leave the 3rd party companies with nothing to make. And that's the bottom line because Rated X said so...


This is a blatant assumption but I highly doubt that third party toys are a 'big hit' other than FansProject in Japan. There's a certain angst towards Knock Off or unofficial toys. It's a big thing with Gundam and other kits, and I think it goes hand in hand with Transformers products too.

And they aren't going to send more business to China, seeing as every single third party sans Renderform and Corbot V, who aren't really third parties, originate from China. Popularity in one country isn't going to increase because another country no longer has third party product.

Takara, compete? Buddy, what would rather have? United Frenzy/Rumble, the e-Hobby 3-Pack sets, and Masterpiece Hot Rod or..... iGear Head Upgrades, a transforming camera made up of 3 small figures, and CrappyDevy upgrades. A retailer's sales are probably 20x fold for Takara compared to the add-on guys.

Takara doesn't need to change their line-up to shut down third parties. They should just get in there and shut down 'some' third parties. As a collector of all things, I believe 3rd party stuff is garbage, unless it's made by FansProject, HR, MMC and to an extent, Perfect Effect. And really, if they all go under, I could honestly not care at all. It's a shame that some companies had to **** the bed and make the rest of the good ones look bad. Like honestly, I still can't believe Impossible Toys' Arcee mold was actually capable of being sold. That thing is a piece of garbage and the price tag of $60+ is a bloody joke. I can't believe i-Gear hasn't been stomped on for their complete and utter copy-cat attitude towards not only Hasbro and Takara products, but for custom ideas from other members of the TF community without their general authorization.

Look, I doubt that any more action will be taken from HasTak, as their own product sales are enhanced by the mutuality that exists from 3rd party products created. But at the same time.. I wouldn't mind seeing some third parties go under. Their products are a terrible miss, and they charge way too much. It's an addiction that just needs to go away..


Damn…

I loved the Impossible Toys Arcee and Medic. Bought them both and are very happy. I love Fansproject, Perfect Effect, and Head Robots as well. And my favorite company is KO Toys. Those guys are gods in my book. They flush the drama down the toilet and make it happen !!! For what they are working with in terms of money and materials, you should give 3rd party companies a little more credit. I mean some collectors are freakin quality control nuts and should get a job as inspectors. Me personally, I am just happy to have the most G1 representation of each character available. To this day, I haven’t attempted to transform my Fansproject Springer (Defender to all you copyright worry-warts) I just put them on a shelf, get drunk and enjoy their beauty. Now don’t get me wrong, I love a lot of the Has/Tak stuff. But there are plenty of holes to fill in the ranks of their line-up. And somebody’s gotta fill them. Granted, they are eating off of Has/Tak’s plate, but that’s just how it goes. Maybe if they spent more time on putting out the missing links and less time trying to be innovative with Mighty Muggs, PCC’s and Robot Heroes, they wouldn’t have this problem now. When you have an itch, you scratch it, right ??? So it is obvious that these little companies got the big boys attention. Maybe they should hire the best of them, team them all up and create a Takara Collector’s Division kind of like a Micro Brew beer of the month club. But nope…they want to shut them down because they don’t like being outshined. This isn’t about profits. This is about making a statement. Takara is basically saying they want to be the only player in the game. It don’t work that way. Lebron cant win alone. Wade gotta hit a few shots.Bosh gotta hit a few shots. Maybe all the companies that make transformable robots can never work as a team, but their figures that sit on my shelf make a great team together side by side.
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Re: Ruh Roh! 3rd Parties!

Postby Seibertron » Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:16 pm

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Jesterhead wrote:
Seibertron wrote:
Jesterhead wrote:Strange they are banning them at the retail level, and not the manufacturers.


If you stop it at the retail level, it makes it very difficult/challenging to obtain these items, which puts a financial strain on the "manufacturers", and saves on the near impossible legal problems that would be faced with going after 3rd party manufacturers in China.


True, but what responsibility do the individual retailers have concerning 3rd party products? Who is Takara to tell them what they can and what they cannot sell?

So I guess my question is: Is it legally dubious to re-sell a product that infringes on IP?


If it wasn't for the availability of these products with online retailers, the popularity of these items wouldn't be what it is today. It is uncertain what responsibility the retailers have though the threat of losing the ability to sell Hasbro or Takara Tomy products would make an online retailer think twice about this.
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Re: Ruh Roh! 3rd Parties!

Postby Blurrz » Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:18 pm

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Rated X wrote:Damn…

I loved the Impossible Toys Arcee and Medic. Bought them both and are very happy. I love Fansproject, Perfect Effect, and Head Robots as well. And my favorite company is KO Toys. Those guys are gods in my book. They flush the drama down the toilet and make it happen !!! For what they are working with in terms of money and materials, you should give 3rd party companies a little more credit. I mean some collectors are freakin quality control nuts and should get a job as inspectors. Me personally, I am just happy to have the most G1 representation of each character available. To this day, I haven’t attempted to transform my Fansproject Springer (Defender to all you copyright worry-warts) I just put them on a shelf, get drunk and enjoy their beauty. Now don’t get me wrong, I love a lot of the Has/Tak stuff. But there are plenty of holes to fill in the ranks of their line-up. And somebody’s gotta fill them. Granted, they are eating off of Has/Tak’s plate, but that’s just how it goes. Maybe if they spent more time on putting out the missing links and less time trying to be innovative with Mighty Muggs, PCC’s and Robot Heroes, they wouldn’t have this problem now. When you have an itch, you scratch it, right ??? So it is obvious that these little companies got the big boys attention. Maybe they should hire the best of them, team them all up and create a Takara Collector’s Division kind of like a Micro Brew beer of the month club. But nope…they want to shut them down because they don’t like being outshined. This isn’t about profits. This is about making a statement. Takara is basically saying they want to be the only player in the game. It don’t work that way. Lebron cant win alone. Wade gotta hit a few shots.Bosh gotta hit a few shots. Maybe all the companies that make transformable robots can never work as a team, but their figures that sit on my shelf make a great team together side by side.


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And among many of your posts, where I've been confused, mad and against your opinion....I finally now understand who you are and what your intentions are. Despite our backgrounds, our age, our personalities, and all the differences in between, bottomline is that we're both Transformers fans, and we're just trying to enjoy the hobby. Thank you forums, peace has been found.
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Re: Ruh Roh! 3rd Parties!

Postby Seibertron » Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:13 pm

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Rated X wrote:Takara is basically saying they want to be the only player in the game. It don’t work that way. Lebron cant win alone. Wade gotta hit a few shots.Bosh gotta hit a few shots. Maybe all the companies that make transformable robots can never work as a team, but their figures that sit on my shelf make a great team together side by side.


That is exactly what they're saying. They have every right to say that they want to be the only player in the game with these products because it's their intellectual property that they created. They have an right to protect their brand, their products and their intellectual ideas. These 3rd party companies aren't making generic transforming robot toys. They're making products that directly homage the characters Hasbro and Takara Tomy own/create/make. We wouldn't have as great of an interest in these 3rd party products if they didn't resemble Transformers characters.

If Hasbro doesn't want to make a Springer figure in the Classics style to fill a "whole in our collection(s)", then that's up to them to decide which products they want to bring to the market. It should not be up to 3rd party companies to determine which characters should be brought to the market.
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Re: Ruh Roh! 3rd Parties!

Postby Doctor McGrath » Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:44 pm

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Blurrz wrote:
amcgrath929 wrote:So, tell me how you really feel.. :grin:


Honestly Alex... I really don't know. I'm a fan of vintage toys, but at the same time, I hate to see good products from FP, and other third parties, get blacklisted because the rest of the group ruined it for them. I know more than half of the Seibertron staff loves these toys, and so does more than half of the fandom. It's like how we all had to conform to the rules of Airport Security because a small group of people decided to enact 9/11. Sure, it's not exactly the best comparison seeing as Airport Security is actually a good thing... but yeah, you know what I mean. I wish third parties the best, but the ones who are borderline KOs or decided to melt strawberry baskets and decided to use that plastic to make toys.. then, good riddance.


I know the line your dealing with here and agree with the points you are making. There's a lot of room for gray with the third party market, so where do we(or HasTak) make it black and white. And like you said, it's unfortunate that some third party companies, really only a select few, test the boundary in this relationship.


Seibertron wrote:That is exactly what they're saying. They have every right to say that they want to be the only player in the game with these products because it's their intellectual property that they created. They have an right to protect their brand, their products and their intellectual ideas. These 3rd party companies aren't making generic transforming robot toys. They're making products that directly homage the characters Hasbro and Takara Tomy own/create/make. We wouldn't have as great of an interest in these 3rd party products if they didn't resemble Transformers characters.

If Hasbro doesn't want to make a Springer figure in the Classics style to fill a "whole in our collection(s)", then that's up to them to decide which products they want to bring to the market. It should not be up to 3rd party companies to determine which characters should be brought to the market.


Well put.
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Re: Ruh Roh! 3rd Parties!

Postby Court Jester » Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:59 pm

This is why FansProject cannot be touched. It's the fandom that is connecting the dots on "homages". FansProject simply makes damn good toys. Are they fans of Transformers? Have they, as a legit toy making company, issued a company policy to only make "Transformers" brand character homages? Will pressure from any monopolizing entity re-bottle their significance to a large portion of the monopoly's fandom? All rhetorical questions, mind you... but my point is this: You cannot eradicate the companies that have already made their mark (and avoided obvious infringement). In this savvy community, there will always be a way for KO's, 3P's, and even lone wolf artists to earn a buck - if a fraction of the fandom deems it worthy of purchase (via news sites like Seibertron.com). In essence, this email action is, from this TF geek's POV, folly (read: EPIC FAIL).
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Re: Ruh Roh! 3rd Parties!

Postby NTESHFT » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:28 pm

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IMO it seems Takara is just pissy because they competition. I don't see how, though, since a lot of 3rd party companies are just merely making add ons. I would assume that this, in turn, would boost their sales. To a point, I do understand with I-gears Coneheads since they are basically MP Seekers. And Yes, WHY AREN'T THEY ATTACKING THE KO'S?!?! If they should try and stop any of them, IMO it should be them. I really hope Hasbro doesn't follow suit, and I doubt they would if they notice how much it boost their sales due to add ons.

As for the whole "it's not up to 3rd part companies to decide what figures to bring out" thing- who's really saying that other than Takara? IMO it's been them, for the most part, listening to what the fans want and going with that. There is a such thing as being greedy and I believe that is what's really on Takara's mind. And as someone else mentioned in an earlier post, if they listened more to the fans and brought out such things then a 3rd party wouldn't exist..... :KREMZEEK:
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Re: Ruh Roh! 3rd Parties!

Postby Prime Evil » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:30 pm

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Well all we know is that Takara is trying to crack down on the selling of these 3rd party products by threatening to NOT sell their toys to “x” retailer, I don't think anyone is getting sued. “x” retailer has a choice for business. Sell official products of TF toys, or say eff it and and support the 3rd party community. But as a business owner, what do you think actually brings in the $$? It’s all about the $$ and name brand recognition what products bring in the money. I don’t think Hasbro or Takara wants to sue anyone unless they really have to. Instead, they are going to try and give retail sellers and online sellers an ultimatum. Sell us and only ours, or we walk away with our products.
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Re: Ruh Roh! 3rd Parties!

Postby MINDVVIPE » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:35 pm

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I think the friction here can be solved by simply staying off their turf by avoiding Hastek names, and Hastek molds. Warbot Defender slips through as a good example. Not any mold remake from hastek, and it doesn't dare feature anything that could be from the Transformers Universe other than figure appearance.
I think it's stupid to say hastek and only hastek has the right to make, say, an arcee thats actually good. If FP made one unique "not-arcee" figure and marketed it the same way as Warbot Defender, awesome. I hope the new Devastator clears itself of these issues before releasing.
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Re: Ruh Roh! 3rd Parties!

Postby Burn » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:42 pm

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MINDVVIPE wrote:I think it's stupid to say hastek and only hastek has the right to make, say, an arcee thats actually good.


Actually they do. They're the ones who created the likeness of Arcee. Intellectual Property, they have every right to do it.

Given the economic situation around the world (not to mention recent events in Japan) I would imagine TT are just trying to protect their property, and thus their income, as much as possible.
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Re: Ruh Roh! 3rd Parties!

Postby MINDVVIPE » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:18 pm

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Burn wrote:
MINDVVIPE wrote:I think it's stupid to say hastek and only hastek has the right to make, say, an arcee thats actually good.


Actually they do. They're the ones who created the likeness of Arcee. Intellectual Property, they have every right to do it.

Given the economic situation around the world (not to mention recent events in Japan) I would imagine TT are just trying to protect their property, and thus their income, as much as possible.


I didn't actually mean an arcee like the crappy 3rd party one that came out. I meant one that looked like its own figure, with colours, alt mode and key features that are similar to arcee.

It is their IP, but as fans, being on the consumer end, you shouldn't really be thinking about the safety and protection of a giant company like hastek, they can handle themselves as long as they are able to handle themselves, and deserve to stay afloat (which i'm sure they won't have any hard time with). What we need to do as fans is demand and go where our money is worth the product.
This way we get the figures we want, and Hastek stays alive from the fandom wanting both types of Transformers in their collection.
Hastek is probably getting peeved at the types of figures that are super like their own molds and designs. Fair enough. But Springer is on such a different side of things with its engineering, price tag, and own unique look and name. And if thats somthing that bothers you just coz it doesn't feed directly to Hastek, your worrying about the wrong things. I don't think 3rd party companies will ever be the death of hastek Transformers, so.

If there is anything good in art, its only a matter of time before its stolen, its how things work, so let the artists worry about staying alive, they'll have to just step up their game to compete and provide us with better things. If the other artist isn't good enough at being creative and making somthing their own on their own, their folly and their fall.
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Re: Ruh Roh! 3rd Parties!

Postby Burn » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:29 pm

Motto: "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings to randomly click things in the Admin Panel to see what it breaks."
MINDVVIPE wrote:What we need to do as fans is demand and go where our money is worth the product.


See, I disagree with this statement for a couple of reasons (none of which are meant to be disrespectful I might add).

For starters, we don't have a right to demand anything. We're fans yes, but as has been said many times over the years, Transformers are made for kids. Collectors like us are a small base, and really, in the last few years they've done a pretty good job of trying to cater for us.

Secondly, I guess i'm just a "company man" in that I don't support third party manufacturers nor do I want any of their stuff in my collection (though I do have a Universe Superion upgrade sitting here I intend to sell off). That's just a personal preference, I know a lot of other people think differently, they want the "hole filled in their collection", but personally, that hole should be filled by HasTak and HasTak only. If it isn't, well ... there's 25 years of figures to collect.

Again, personal opinion on the matter, that's just how I look at it. So here's hoping TT (and maybe Hasbro eventually) do a good job of protecting their IP while also trying to give more for the collectors.
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Re: Ruh Roh! 3rd Parties!

Postby MINDVVIPE » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:33 pm

Motto: "One look from me and you've lost"
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Burn wrote:
MINDVVIPE wrote:What we need to do as fans is demand and go where our money is worth the product.


See, I disagree with this statement for a couple of reasons (none of which are meant to be disrespectful I might add).

For starters, we don't have a right to demand anything. We're fans yes, but as has been said many times over the years, Transformers are made for kids. Collectors like us are a small base, and really, in the last few years they've done a pretty good job of trying to cater for us.

Secondly, I guess i'm just a "company man" in that I don't support third party manufacturers nor do I want any of their stuff in my collection (though I do have a Universe Superion upgrade sitting here I intend to sell off). That's just a personal preference, I know a lot of other people think differently, they want the "hole filled in their collection", but personally, that hole should be filled by HasTak and HasTak only. If it isn't, well ... there's 25 years of figures to collect.

Again, personal opinion on the matter, that's just how I look at it. So here's hoping TT (and maybe Hasbro eventually) do a good job of protecting their IP while also trying to give more for the collectors.



I agree with you (except I don't care about it being not Hastek to be in my collection), because you misunderstood what I meant about demanding. I don't mean writing letters to Hastek complaining theres no 3 mode Springer, hehe. I simply meant, with the general fan "DEMAND" for a good springer, out came a 3rd party Springer. I'm not gonna whine if I never get an arcee that looks true to G1 with modern articulation, but IF I am going to spend money on an arcee, I will only pay if it meets my own criteria, regardless of the company.
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Re: Ruh Roh! 3rd Parties!

Postby Blackstreak » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:39 pm

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Aw, are the big-wig companies getting ass-hurt over 3rd party customs? Then maybe they should produce better stuff.
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