The Energon Pub

syphonn wrote:

Sonray wrote:

syphonn wrote:

Cormaster628 wrote:does that question really need answered? seriously! "robots in disguise" The F-22 Raptor is a disguise.

They are supposed to be robots in disguise, but look at Bumblebee, when he drove off from Sam's house, he turned his key and put himself in gear and then drove off, and in his engine bay there is an internal combustion engine with working parts. Tthat all shouldn't be nesc. if they are just disguising as earth vehicles ... it seems like they "become" those vehicles

Actually it would be nessesary since if they enocunter a situation where someone looks under the hood (like that so called "hot chick" did) their cover would be blown if all they found was an alien robot head under the hood. It wouldnt be much of a disguise if all you saw was an empty rolling car shell with no interior or engine. Youd be able to spot em from a mile away.

Duuuh

Bumblebee created the situation for the "hot chick" to look under his hood. And when he drove off by himself he was alone and didnt have to 'fake' it. Using your logic what would happen if you take the car to the dealer for service or if the car had fallen into the hands of a gear head who likes to restore cars ... scraps it to the frame, then his alt mode would have to mimick whatever vehicle its disguised as down to the last detail, and Primus help us is he changes a few parts ... a quarter panel, an engine swap, a tire or a piece of glass those are all parts that break apart and come back together seamlessly. What would happen then when he transforms? No one should ever be that intimate with a transformer that they require that level of detail to remain hidden, if some one does get that close, then they should already know and at that point there wont be a need for that great a disguise.

Gear head tries to strip down Ironhide.

IH: "Hey! What the slag do you think you are doing?!"

Transforms, blasts the human into iddy biddy pieces. No need for such a perfect disguise.


Starscream: He had water vapour on his outer hull that evaporated when he ignited his boosters, causing that blazing fire trail.


I'm with Sonray on this, some things are being way too overanalysed.

Briggs wrote:He totally makes a transforming sound then some hyper space kaboom shazaam boost!

Enough with your technical talk!

Auto Bot wrote:

Sonray wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:I know about the SR-71. Its body expands during supersonic flights.

But it still does not burn up in the aero friction.

It will probably take some 30 or 100 times faster, or even more, before there's any smoke.

Which is not achievable when accelerating inside Earth's gravity and atmosphere.

But it is achievable, if the subject first attain that super-speed in outer space, and then enter our atmosphere.

Why cant an advanced alien propulsion system achieve it? You are basing your arguments on human limitations. Advanced alien races aren't limited by such things. So how can you say that they are/would be? (that is...if they actually existed. My original statement that this is just a movie and so intricate scientific prodding isn't required and made completely moot by the very material we are talking about- still stands.)

Uh... actually, i'm not basing it on human technology or limitations. That's totally out of the question.

I'm basing it on sound scientific principles. Math and Physics are universal. You can't change that just because your alien. And since the venue is on Earth, it's but natural they will have to follow physical laws of our system, or dimension.

If ever there exist a separate set of physical laws or transcendental mathematics on Cybertron (which is unlikely), then we'll have to put the characters on that planet to be able to observe those new kind of realities.

(This is the core logic why Autobot vehicles can't fly.)

What i am saying is, those principles and physics and rules can be broken, we simply cant do it because our technology doesn't allow it.

If an alien jet has a propulsion system and a hull strong and fast enough why wouldn't it be able to do things that we humans couldn't imagine? The key word here is "alien", which means it is unknown to us, and thus we are unaware of what such technology is capable of.

And when humans have achieved a top speed of 7000 MPH in earths atmosphere, to me it isn't much of a stretch of the imagination to believe that a super advanced alien could travel fast enough in our atmosphere to create a fireball like we say starscream create.

Really, this is all bullshit, as its just a movie and basic scientific facts, or "semantics" as i like to call them dont apply in this "debate" but im just trying to beat all the pedantic....so and so's around here at their own game.

Transformation619 wrote:In the movie, I didn't get to see the credits, but found one on Youtube, then I've seen Starscream flying, since all the Decepticons died except for barricade and Scorponok,but HOW the hell did Starscream manage to escape the atmosphere with a Raptor? Only a space shuttle has enough power to fly through the atmosphere.
Not seen the credits?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=vnKsN8eu9O4& ... ed&search=

Starscream is a transformer that sometimes looks like a Raptor.


Michael

Auto Bot wrote:My point is, if he really got that ability to fly at mach-gazillion speed, he should have used it to the Decepticon's advantage.

There is the matter of accelerating to that speed.


Michael

Sonray wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:

Sonray wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:I know about the SR-71. Its body expands during supersonic flights.

But it still does not burn up in the aero friction.

It will probably take some 30 or 100 times faster, or even more, before there's any smoke.

Which is not achievable when accelerating inside Earth's gravity and atmosphere.

But it is achievable, if the subject first attain that super-speed in outer space, and then enter our atmosphere.

Why cant an advanced alien propulsion system achieve it? You are basing your arguments on human limitations. Advanced alien races aren't limited by such things. So how can you say that they are/would be? (that is...if they actually existed. My original statement that this is just a movie and so intricate scientific prodding isn't required and made completely moot by the very material we are talking about- still stands.)

Uh... actually, i'm not basing it on human technology or limitations. That's totally out of the question.

I'm basing it on sound scientific principles. Math and Physics are universal. You can't change that just because your alien. And since the venue is on Earth, it's but natural they will have to follow physical laws of our system, or dimension.

If ever there exist a separate set of physical laws or transcendental mathematics on Cybertron (which is unlikely), then we'll have to put the characters on that planet to be able to observe those new kind of realities.

(This is the core logic why Autobot vehicles can't fly.)

What i am saying is, those principles and physics and rules can be broken, we simply cant do it because our technology doesn't allow it.

If an alien jet has a propulsion system and a hull strong and fast enough why wouldn't it be able to do things that we humans couldn't imagine? The key word here is "alien", which means it is unknown to us, and thus we are unaware of what such technology is capable of.

And when humans have achieved a top speed of 7000 MPH in earths atmosphere, to me it isn't much of a stretch of the imagination to believe that a super advanced alien could travel fast enough in our atmosphere to create a fireball like we say starscream create.

Really, this is all bullshit, as its just a movie and basic scientific facts, or "semantics" as i like to call them dont apply in this "debate" but im just trying to beat all the pedantic....so and so's around here at their own game.

Has anyone noticed that all Cybertronians adopt the capability of the alt mode they reformat themselves into?? Their alt mode does what their equivalent earth machines can do. Nothing more. So Starscream's F-22 can't travel at a super Cybertronian speed. It can only fly and maneuver like a real F-22 when in alt mode. Do we see Brawl breaking land-record speed? No, he's a tank. Moderate speed, with lots of firepower. Do we see Blackout take off and stay in the air in his robot mode? No, because he doesn't have jet packs like F-22 thrusters. He transforms everytime he needs to get into the air. Do we see any Autobots fly even short distances? No, because all of them are terrestial vehicles.

So why the heck imagine Starscream can accelerate into unimaginable alien speed? He can't. Not in his F-22 alt mode.

If he transforms into robot mode, or revert back to his protoform, then maybe he's got some super alien capabilities. I don't know.

But in the F-22 form? Nah. Stop hoping. Bay just did a blunder on this escape from atmostphere scene. Plain simple dumb mistake. Nothing more.

I'm not sure about this line of reasoning. Sure, we can say that Starscream's F22 can only move and manoeuvre like an Earth F22 but then it transforms into a combat-ready robot, a feat not many Earth F22's can perform.

Also, how can we say that the laws of physics are universal when we haven't even explored the entire universe, let alone understood it. At any given point in history we've probably only ever seen a snapshot of the scientific principles at work in our universe. Our ancestors were ignorant of certain scientific processes that we have since learnt and accepted. How do we know that we're not ignorant of other, more fantastic processes that we may learn at some indeterminate point in the future?

Of course, Starscream can transform and do more than whatever an F-22 can do. They're Transformers.

That's why the limitations are only present in their alt mode. If this principle doesn't hold, then all Autobots should be able to fly. If not, at least teleport to another location.

If all Transformers will have super abilities in their alt mode, beyond that of their earth counterparts, (such as SS F-22 in super Cybertronian speed), then the movie and the storyline will turn out to be very boring. Everybody just snap their metal fingers, and their wishes will come true.

It's actually fun to see their capabilities clipped or limited in their alt modes. Makes the action and suspense more intense. Creates urgency of the situations.

But their capabilities aren't limited if Starscream's F22 can transform, can pilot itself, can speak in Cybertronian, has independent thought, etc.

That's because they're alive. All of them have all those capabilities you mentioned.

That's being sarcastic.

But it's ok. I can take that. As long as the others can understand what i'm pointing out.

It's not winning or losing here. Or being insulted at. No problem.

I suggest ideas. If some will appreciate it, then it's good. If not, it's good as well.

I'm confused, I wasn't being sarcastic or insulting. My point was that the Transformers aren't limited by human technology (or human understanding of science).

Just find time to reflect on it, and you'll understand. It's pretty simple. Just open your mind. And not confine it to the only "truth" you established in your mind.

Pardon me? My "truth" is simply based on what I've seen in the film. You're saying that their alt.modes' capabilites are restricted to what their Earth equivalents can do. I'm saying the film showed that their alt.modes can do more than what their Earth equivalents can do. If I've misunderstood your point then please explain it.

dbz77 wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:My point is, if he really got that ability to fly at mach-gazillion speed, he should have used it to the Decepticon's advantage.

There is the matter of accelerating to that speed.


Michael

And then stopping...plus id imagine that navigating through buildings at such speeds would be a bit tricky too.

Sonray wrote:

dbz77 wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:My point is, if he really got that ability to fly at mach-gazillion speed, he should have used it to the Decepticon's advantage.

There is the matter of accelerating to that speed.


Michael

And then stopping...plus id imagine that navigating through buildings at such speeds would be a bit tricky too.

A burst of super speed to reach the city in seconds. Slow down. Then maneuver into the buildings. Simple. Arrives much faster. Just use your coconut.

Auto Bot wrote:

Sonray wrote:

dbz77 wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:My point is, if he really got that ability to fly at mach-gazillion speed, he should have used it to the Decepticon's advantage.

There is the matter of accelerating to that speed.


Michael

And then stopping...plus id imagine that navigating through buildings at such speeds would be a bit tricky too.

A burst of super speed to reach the city in seconds. Slow down. Then maneuver into the buildings. Simple. Arrives much faster. Just use your coconut.

How long would it take to slow down?


Michael

This is freaking insane autobot. You seriously need to get a grip and realize this was just a **** movie. If flames appear when something is flying really fast, its to make it look cool. Its not a mistake, its totally intentional. If SS didn't travel at hypersonic speeds to get to the city, it was because that is how they wrote the god damned script! Stop looking so bloody deep into this as its really stupid, not to mention utterly **** annoying!

dbz77 wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:

Sonray wrote:

dbz77 wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:My point is, if he really got that ability to fly at mach-gazillion speed, he should have used it to the Decepticon's advantage.

There is the matter of accelerating to that speed.


Michael

And then stopping...plus id imagine that navigating through buildings at such speeds would be a bit tricky too.

A burst of super speed to reach the city in seconds. Slow down. Then maneuver into the buildings. Simple. Arrives much faster. Just use your coconut.

How long would it take to slow down?


Michael

Probably 1.583 seconds.

Sonray wrote:This is freaking insane autobot. You seriously need to get a grip and realize this was just a **** movie. If flames appear when something is flying really fast, its to make it look cool. Its not a mistake, its totally intentional. If SS didn't travel at hypersonic speeds to get to the city, it was because that is how they wrote the god damned script! Stop looking so bloody deep into this as its really stupid, not to mention utterly **** annoying!

I know it's a movie. It's just a science fiction.

I'm just pointing out the glaring mistake.

That's all. Every movie has its share of blunders. Nothing new. But it's fun to point it out and discuss it.

Auto Bot wrote:

Sonray wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:

Sonray wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:I know about the SR-71. Its body expands during supersonic flights.

But it still does not burn up in the aero friction.

It will probably take some 30 or 100 times faster, or even more, before there's any smoke.

Which is not achievable when accelerating inside Earth's gravity and atmosphere.

But it is achievable, if the subject first attain that super-speed in outer space, and then enter our atmosphere.

Why cant an advanced alien propulsion system achieve it? You are basing your arguments on human limitations. Advanced alien races aren't limited by such things. So how can you say that they are/would be? (that is...if they actually existed. My original statement that this is just a movie and so intricate scientific prodding isn't required and made completely moot by the very material we are talking about- still stands.)

Uh... actually, i'm not basing it on human technology or limitations. That's totally out of the question.

I'm basing it on sound scientific principles. Math and Physics are universal. You can't change that just because your alien. And since the venue is on Earth, it's but natural they will have to follow physical laws of our system, or dimension.

If ever there exist a separate set of physical laws or transcendental mathematics on Cybertron (which is unlikely), then we'll have to put the characters on that planet to be able to observe those new kind of realities.

(This is the core logic why Autobot vehicles can't fly.)

What i am saying is, those principles and physics and rules can be broken, we simply cant do it because our technology doesn't allow it.

If an alien jet has a propulsion system and a hull strong and fast enough why wouldn't it be able to do things that we humans couldn't imagine? The key word here is "alien", which means it is unknown to us, and thus we are unaware of what such technology is capable of.

And when humans have achieved a top speed of 7000 MPH in earths atmosphere, to me it isn't much of a stretch of the imagination to believe that a super advanced alien could travel fast enough in our atmosphere to create a fireball like we say starscream create.

Really, this is all bullshit, as its just a movie and basic scientific facts, or "semantics" as i like to call them dont apply in this "debate" but im just trying to beat all the pedantic....so and so's around here at their own game.

Has anyone noticed that all Cybertronians adopt the capability of the alt mode they reformat themselves into?? Their alt mode does what their equivalent earth machines can do. Nothing more. So Starscream's F-22 can't travel at a super Cybertronian speed. It can only fly and maneuver like a real F-22 when in alt mode. Do we see Brawl breaking land-record speed? No, he's a tank. Moderate speed, with lots of firepower. Do we see Blackout take off and stay in the air in his robot mode? No, because he doesn't have jet packs like F-22 thrusters. He transforms everytime he needs to get into the air. Do we see any Autobots fly even short distances? No, because all of them are terrestial vehicles.

So why the heck imagine Starscream can accelerate into unimaginable alien speed? He can't. Not in his F-22 alt mode.

If he transforms into robot mode, or revert back to his protoform, then maybe he's got some super alien capabilities. I don't know.

But in the F-22 form? Nah. Stop hoping. Bay just did a blunder on this escape from atmostphere scene. Plain simple dumb mistake. Nothing more.

I definitely agree with you, this is a point I have been trying to get across for some time now.

Y'all realize that SS is the first to get to the city right? That's beacause he's an F-22 Raptor...Of all the Decepticons, he's the fastest in his alt mode, except Megatron. And when they transform to their alt modes, they're limited by human technology...That's why BB needed that awesome engine when he was the old Camaro.

syphonn wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:

Sonray wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:

Sonray wrote:

Auto Bot wrote:I know about the SR-71. Its body expands during supersonic flights.

But it still does not burn up in the aero friction.

It will probably take some 30 or 100 times faster, or even more, before there's any smoke.

Which is not achievable when accelerating inside Earth's gravity and atmosphere.

But it is achievable, if the subject first attain that super-speed in outer space, and then enter our atmosphere.

Why cant an advanced alien propulsion system achieve it? You are basing your arguments on human limitations. Advanced alien races aren't limited by such things. So how can you say that they are/would be? (that is...if they actually existed. My original statement that this is just a movie and so intricate scientific prodding isn't required and made completely moot by the very material we are talking about- still stands.)

Uh... actually, i'm not basing it on human technology or limitations. That's totally out of the question.

I'm basing it on sound scientific principles. Math and Physics are universal. You can't change that just because your alien. And since the venue is on Earth, it's but natural they will have to follow physical laws of our system, or dimension.

If ever there exist a separate set of physical laws or transcendental mathematics on Cybertron (which is unlikely), then we'll have to put the characters on that planet to be able to observe those new kind of realities.

(This is the core logic why Autobot vehicles can't fly.)

What i am saying is, those principles and physics and rules can be broken, we simply cant do it because our technology doesn't allow it.

If an alien jet has a propulsion system and a hull strong and fast enough why wouldn't it be able to do things that we humans couldn't imagine? The key word here is "alien", which means it is unknown to us, and thus we are unaware of what such technology is capable of.

And when humans have achieved a top speed of 7000 MPH in earths atmosphere, to me it isn't much of a stretch of the imagination to believe that a super advanced alien could travel fast enough in our atmosphere to create a fireball like we say starscream create.

Really, this is all bullshit, as its just a movie and basic scientific facts, or "semantics" as i like to call them dont apply in this "debate" but im just trying to beat all the pedantic....so and so's around here at their own game.

Has anyone noticed that all Cybertronians adopt the capability of the alt mode they reformat themselves into?? Their alt mode does what their equivalent earth machines can do. Nothing more. So Starscream's F-22 can't travel at a super Cybertronian speed. It can only fly and maneuver like a real F-22 when in alt mode. Do we see Brawl breaking land-record speed? No, he's a tank. Moderate speed, with lots of firepower. Do we see Blackout take off and stay in the air in his robot mode? No, because he doesn't have jet packs like F-22 thrusters. He transforms everytime he needs to get into the air. Do we see any Autobots fly even short distances? No, because all of them are terrestial vehicles.

So why the heck imagine Starscream can accelerate into unimaginable alien speed? He can't. Not in his F-22 alt mode.

If he transforms into robot mode, or revert back to his protoform, then maybe he's got some super alien capabilities. I don't know.

But in the F-22 form? Nah. Stop hoping. Bay just did a blunder on this escape from atmostphere scene. Plain simple dumb mistake. Nothing more.

I definitely agree with you, this is a point I have been trying to get across for some time now.

Alleluiah! Finally, someone gets what i'm trying to point out.

Bless your soul!

cristof wrote:Y'all realize that SS is the first to get to the city right? That's beacause he's an F-22 Raptor...Of all the Decepticons, he's the fastest in his alt mode, except Megatron. And when they transform to their alt modes, they're limited by human technology...That's why BB needed that awesome engine when he was the old Camaro.

That's right. Exactly right!

Now i believe the world is still sane.

You're right, Auto Bot, it is fun to discuss it if people want to.

But I don't follow, if they're limited by human technology, how come they can drive / pilot themselves, communicate and transform?

Leonardo wrote:You're right, Auto Bot, it is fun to discuss it if people want to.

But I don't follow, if they're limited by human technology, how come they can drive / pilot themselves, communicate and transform?

Those are not added exceptional capabilities. Those things you mentioned are built-in to their being sentient.