The Energon Pub

[Shadowman]

It wasn't until the second Galactic Civil War was getting ready to start that he turned to the dark side. He saw that is the only way to prevent the Galaxy descending into in this war, and keep his daughter safe.

Which when you think about it, isn't really the actions of a Dark Side user.

To be fair, doing really crazy **** in order to prevent something that could possibly be worse is one of the more common ways to fall to the dark side. Revan, for instance, just wanted to keep the Galaxy safe, but in doing so fell to the Dark Side and made things decidedly un safe. (Vitiate didn't help matters much, though)

[Stuartmaximus]

i think a Rogue One teaser playing at the Superbowl is a given!

[Burn]

i think a Rogue One teaser playing at the Superbowl is a given!

If it's not will you buy me a shiny new Titan Wars Fortress Maximus?

[ZeroWolf]

i think a Rogue One teaser playing at the Superbowl is a given!

If it's not will you buy me a shiny new Titan Wars Fortress Maximus?

This deal seems oddly familiar...

[Burn]

i think a Rogue One teaser playing at the Superbowl is a given!

If it's not will you buy me a shiny new Titan Wars Fortress Maximus?

This deal seems oddly familiar...

[RAR]

I have been Watching Youtube videos about the Force Awakens again, and thought i'd address the arguments I found - knock some down or agree with them or say why a situation might be OK or might not be depending on what they do in Episode 8 to star with I'll address Starkiller base please chip in with any Comments you have about it.

-------------

Addressing the Arguments : (1)
Star Killer Base :
Argument : That Star Killer base would kill everyone on the base and render it useless as it consumed the Star that powered it it would fly off into space with nothing to orbit, and people would either freeze, or the atmosphere would eventually boil off it into space as the surface temperature dropped.

Counter Arguments :
The Starkiller base can move, so it simply travels to another star to recharge.
The atmosphere is kept liveable and intact by the defence shield, and also the internal systems are powered by Stella Plasma so it has enough internal heat to keep it from freezing over that way too.

Other comments : I would have liked to see the Temperature raise a little as it eat the sun and heated up the planet instead they went the opposite route and made it colder and darker with the light gone.
It seems even with the shield the Atmosphere is suffering some side effects for the lack of a star so it may not be safe to be outside when the planet has no star after all by virtue of high winds or snow storms etc..

Firing the weapons would omit a lot of heat from a single point creating a hot spot which would then foul the weather or put energy into hurricane force winds potentially.

[Ironhidensh]

Again, as stated many time already in this thread, it's a movie. Non of this will be assessed in Episode 8, nor does it need to or should be. Pratical science does not apply,

[RAR]

If it's just a Movie then why are we talking about Star Wars at all - why is there an interest in it 40 years later if the mindset I'm supposed to adopt is It's just a Movie I've seen it I can now forget about it and look forward to the next one now.. (wash & repeat).

Of course it's a Movie! - That however does not excuse a lack of internal Logic In movies - though you can take a few liberties and get a free pass like say in Terminator or Terminator 2 and be forgiven for it or you can break your own Universe and be derided for by not giving a S*** as in the Star Trek or Robocop Reboot Movies.

The whole point of my previous post is to point out the issues those I have been watching online and to address if those points have merit if they are "Universe breaking" for some people. "Some people" despise Kingdom of Crystal Skull or Jurassic World and often the reasons they hate them so much are similar ones - sure other people will have the disposable fun ride attitude to them, but that does not mean that the concerns of those other people are illegitimate just because everyone does not share them.

That is quite important as the last thing you want to do when watching a Movie is to be reminded you are watching a Movie. That is one of the main objections to poorly implemented CGI - as it makes people adopt a different mindset - and they have to make a mental readjustment to "Oh I'm watching a Cartoon".

So please try to understand the point of my posts. All movies have things in them that make no sense (Like Transformers going grey when they die) but the purpose of the previous post is to point out the places that suspension of disbelief is harmed in some people online's individual views that I have recently seen as a broad brush analysis of fan opinions about a given topic or topics in the franchise. I then comment on those concerns and see if any can be countered or if they really do have an unassailable point or not.

As for the idea of "Practical Science" If I was addressing that I would be showing my contempt for all the destroyed planets being shown in such close proximity when destroyed. But I understand that is a thing Movies have tendency to do - especially JJ as he's done it before in Star Trek 2009.

But if you'd read my post properly rather than jumping down my throat - maybe you'd realise that I wasn't the one complaining - I was actually stating the complaints of others and the providing an appropriate explanation and analysis of them.

Guys like this :



Now maybe some people have different levels of forgiveness for Movie's Stupidity - but speaking personally I use the cinematic principle of establishing "The Real World" which is the principle that you establish the norms of your Universe and then you can later break or bend them in a fantasy sense - but even then explanations of some sort are required.

Even if the explanation is "Magic" or "The Force" The Empire or the 1st order don't get those free passes though they don't get to break the Universe due to bad writing and have "A wizard did it" as an excuse.

Fortunately it turns out they most do have an excuse - HOWEVER the casual viewer opinion I was reporting didn't see it that way in many cases so the issue was that without a bit of applied Logic or research you are left looking at the Starkiller base as something that makes no sense as a weapon, it seems to a casual eye to simply be a huge waste of time and effort that achieves almost nothing.

That isn't actually the case but the whole point of my previous post is that is how others see it and I am mealy reporting and commenting on that. Regardless of if you like Force Awakens or not - there is plenty to discuss in it - that ist what I was attempting to do - "discuss" - you know on a Discussion Board - those things that are for Discussing things on.

In short 'Don't shoot the Messenger'.

[Burn]

Man, I couldn't be bothered reading to the end of that.

It really is just a movie. There's no need to over-analyse it, or get your panties in a bunch if people don't share your view on it. IT'S.JUST.A.MOVIE.

The majority of them are there to help you escape from reality for a bit, know how they do that? By taking liberty with reality.

So yeah, it really is, just a movie.

[RAR]

Please read the first paragraph :

quote;
"I have been watching Youtube videos about the Force Awakens again, and thought I'd address the arguments I found - knock some down or agree with them or say why a situation might be OK or might not be depending on what they do in Episode 8 to star with I'll address Starkiller base please chip in with any Comments you have about it. "

Alternatively I can just let the thread die until the Rogue One teaser comes out if people would prefer, or you know you could like offer a topic of discussion or comment of your own ?

[RAR]

Unintentional double post.

I really wish someone would change the colour of the Quote button - it is so easy to press it by mistake when trying to edit.

Or allow people to delete their own double posts would help.

But so as I won't waste it....

Say guys what you think about that Kylo Ren then ?

No, Nothing ???

Ok then have a Video about a guy saying why his dislikes Force Awakens Apologists (that would be me then I guess)

[Burn]

Please read the first paragraph :

I did.

If it's just a Movie then why are we talking about Star Wars at all - why is there an interest in it 40 years later if the mindset I'm supposed to adopt is It's just a Movie I've seen it I can now forget about it and look forward to the next one now.. (wash & repeat).

Then I read the next few lines and saw you were getting your panties in a bunch because as Ironhidensh, and you're really over-analysing things.

No one's saying the topic should die, we're just not agreeing with you.

I really wish someone would change the colour of the Quote button - it is so easy to press it by mistake when trying to edit.

There's at least one button between them. If you're on a phone, zoom in.

[Ironhidensh]

Look Rar, The problem is you're not conveying the message you think you are. I think you're trying to say is: "here are some things that happened in the movie I didn't fully agree with. let's discuss it." What you're coming across as saying is: "Hey I hated this movie and here's why you should hate it too", or "hey I really like this movie but I want to hate it and here's why you should hate it too". That tends to grate on people.

[ZeroWolf]

Look Rar, The problem is you're not conveying the message you think you are. I think you're trying to say is: "here are some things that happened in the movie I didn't fully agree with. let's discuss it." What you're coming across as saying is: "Hey I hated this movie and here's why you should hate it too", or "hey I really like this movie but I want to hate it and here's why you should hate it too". That tends to grate on people.

This is what I think as well. It's okay wanting to discuss things but it seems that half the time you want to debate with yourself to work out how you really feel about the movie.

Also I haven't seen jurassic world yet so i can't comment on that but as for Kingdom of the crystal skull, it was just a bad movie, if it had been a good movie, the fridge scene wouldn't of been derided as much. I mean this is a film series that shown people surviving a plane crash by jumping onto an inflatable raft and a series where the first film would of worked out if indy had done nothing (thanks big bang theory for pointing that out to me...).

The force awakens, to me at least, doesn't suffer any problems like that. I never once sat there thinking any of these problems while watching. This isn't a go against you by the way, as I know you (Rar) like looking at these sort of things in movies but please recognise you are in a minority of people. It's like I'm in a minority of people who like the second live action guyver movie and would gladly watch that over nolans batman movies.

Long and short of it, Rar, you want to question the movies that's fine and dandy but just realise that a lot of us here don't need to dig that deep to have our entertainment

[Ironhidensh]

If it helps, I have to learn to do the same thing in the current toy discussion threads. I'm having a really hard time not flooding every discussion with my Currant hatred for Hasbro. So I get where you're coming from, it's just something we both have to work on.

[RAR]

Again :

1) I am watching Youtube Videos
Example :


2) Noting the comments both positive and negative
Example : Han's Death is misshandled, Chewie Fails to react - doesn't hug leia.

3) Using those as point of discussion
Example : "Maybe Rey should have been the one to take Finn to the medical bay and Leia the one to Hug Chewie"

4) Expressing opinion as to why some might say that was done that way.
Example : Rey is the main character so that trumps the emotional truth of the scene over internal logic of how the character "should" or "would" behave if the script wasn't trumping common sense

5) Suggesting correction that might be offered in episode 8 (if appropriate)
Example : a small scene of Han's memorial in episode would address in part how glossed over his death was an allow Chewie and Leia to express to each other in a way that is missing in Episode 7 thus countering that criticism a little.

6) Practical example: We know Harrison Ford has a small role in Episode 8 still so if some gets a Hologram from beyond the grave then I would attest Chewie and Leia need to be present for this - if instead some one like Finn or Rey gets it that would be well for lack of a better term an "emotional betrayal" and a direct insult to the audience to do that would be simple Pandering to newbies (both fans and characters).

I am not explicitly offering my own criticism of the movie in such a case until the last part I am reporting a bunch of other fan's opinions and using that as a jumping off point.

Now I was previously actually including the videos (as I have above) that I was explicitly talking about but that seemed to upset some so I stopped.

Please understand :

Reporting isn't Rubbishing
Analysis isn't attack
Supposition isn't Slander
Opinion isn't Aggression

------

I'm not coming here to persuade anyone to love or not love anything, neither am I saying that anyone is wrong to see Movies as a disposable medium of low consequence.

I am simply watching some Youtube videos noting something that interested me then reporting what I see an commenting on it - as I like to talk about Star Wars.
Just as Stuartmaximus found a fan film video and did the same to ask a question an promote a discussion.

That is all I'm trying to do too. No "Attack Dogging" is to be intended or implied.
If anyone actually wants to know what I think about Force Awakens. Personally I'd be happy to elaborate - but - people don't like my long posts so I expect I'd be wasting my time doing so.

In short though : "It's Alright".
"Good time no Alcohol required"
I have also previously stated that I actually like it more than ROTJ too.

[Stuartmaximus]

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[Cyber Bishop]

FB_IMG_1454722224877.jpg

[RAR]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJh7fUFLeUo

Is a video about Jem and the Holograms - I think though in an odd way it can be used to explain the feeling anyone can have about a "Beloved Franchise" and how they'd react seeing it mishandled.


Why do I mention it here... well it seems to me that the car crash of events that lead to Fant4stic or Jem & The Holograms - could so very easily happen to a big franchise too - some might even argue it's already happening or happened to Robocop, Terminator & Alien or indeed Star Trek.

So the concern for those individuals who so loudly scream their heads off about how upset or disappointed they are about The Force Awakens are perhaps not so unlike The Jem fans or the Fantastic Four fans and how they felt last year.

The expression Prof. Thorgi uses is "He doesn't have a dog in the race" but he does still none the less feel solidarity to the Jem fans.

So I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that to those who say "It's just a Movie" about the change of Direction for Star Wars or Star Trek or get upset as someone else is in turn upset about some aspect of a Movie.

I would say this. If you don't have a Dog in the race either then you have to choices either you show some sympathy to those who do have a serious emotional investment or you say that's OK I feel no special concern so I'm happy whatever.

Personally I choose to do the former.

[ZeroWolf]

I don't quite know what your getting at in that last paragraph. I understood the first option, to show sympathy for those who have invested a lot of themselves in the franchise but the second option is pretty much a re branding of not having a dog in the race.

A few pages ago, some of us explained our first brush with star wars, so by that consideration, we do have a dog in the race, so where is the third option of "I'm completely happy with the direction so far

I can feel empathy but it also appears that some of the people who rage about the movie wouldn't of liked it no matter what. To those people, all I can offer is pity.

To the others, I can understand some things but I can also say they are being unreasonable about some other things. Change is something that will happen if a franchise is to continue and survive.

[RAR]

There is an awful lot of diverse opinions out there.

Some people say they are happy with 4-7 And despise 1-3
Some people say they are happy with 2 & 3 & 4-7 And despise 1
Some people say they are happy with 2 & 3 & 4-6 And despise 1 & 7
Some people say they like them all but think Force Awakens sits between the OT & the PT
Some people say they are happy with them all and like Force Awakens more than everything except IV & V
I even hear the odd person say it's the 2nd best or best Movie (but those people are clearly either Newbies or pretty casual fans).
and so on...

Those who have 'Drunk the Cool Aid' over Force Awakens may simply be so happy that it isn't the prequels that any flaws others see in it are tiny compared to the weight of importance they place on them "Not being the prequels".
The thing I worry about and perhaps the main reason to bring this up at all is the most common "excuse" for hand waving away The Force Awakens Universe breaking problems and plot holes is that they say "Don't worry Episode 8 will fix it".

I suspect the 90 something rating on Rotten Tomatoes and the like won't last if Episode 8 fails to meet even some of those expectations - sure the casual and new viewers (some people under 20 and the like) simply won't care - but they'd not care anyway.
However there is I'm sorry to say some people who won't watch a Movie made before the Millennium with the excuse "It's old so it must be crap" on their lips, so they would give primacy to Force Awakens simply as it in newer. (You get a lot of that in all Fandoms - it's sort of like how some Transformers Fans dismiss Alternators)

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There will naturally be somethings that are much more subjective though for example some people really 'dislike' the way Force Awakens is shot with it's Close ups and "Reaction shots" and people staring into the distance etc.. that drives some people nuts.
Personally I barely notice except for the odd time the shot lasted a bit to long and your tapping your foot thinking ... "And; Cut" ???

I do think a very legitimate criticism offered by some though is with the sound mix - we may have to wait and see what it's like on Home formats - but some people were put off by not being able to hear the Music at all in the cinemas and the sound effects ramped up so high in the mix it is just kaboom - wizz bang woosh - type noises and nothing else.

Those people feel the "Emotional resonance" is lost because of that in places. The music isn't allowed to speak - this is one of the reasons sometimes given why some people think the Prequels are more Star Wars than the Force Awakens is to them.
Others hate the way the shots are framed they prefer the mid-shots and action across the frame to the chase cam style of the ships and such.

People often say the only decent new theme is Rey's theme for example (Though I like the March of the Resistance myself too). But as I've said before some of the things that bug some people might not bug other people at all - like my complaint about the way they use the Aliens is not a common one.
where as loads of people have noticed the lack of a Y-Wing analogue. But that seems like more an example of lack of thought to the merchandising of space craft (and aliens) than anything else.

Anyway I'll be curious to see what consensus erupts or how it changes when the Rogue One Trailer airs and when Force Awakens comes out on Home formats and people have a chance to really dig deep into it and think about it a bit more.

But I do understand some things drive some people crazy and other people not - like I have no really problem with Attack of the Clones but some people think it's the spawn of the devil or something.

[Shadowman]

Those who have 'Drunk the Cool Aid' over Force Awakens may simply be so happy that it isn't the prequels that any flaws others see in it are tiny compared to the weight of importance they place on them "Not being the prequels".

Or maybe we just liked it. Did that thought ever pass through your head, or did it get drowned out with "I didn't like the Force Awakens and there must be something wrong with anyone who did"?

[RAR]

When did I ever say I disliked it ?
Disliked certain choices in it sure - but the actual Movie nope - I'm Just reporting the Zeitgeist here as I've found it so far. while from time to time mentioning my own specific preferences like wishing they had more kinds of space craft than they do in the Movie and hoping that is no longer the case in the future ones.

Neither am I saying someone should or shouldn't like it - Anymore than I am saying one way of the other for AntMan, Guardians of the Galaxy, Age of Ultron, Fury Road or Jurassic World - which were also somewhat controversial to some degree are something should feel one way or the other about - that is very much up to the individual.

The only Movie I can think of that I might be tempted to adopt a scolding tone towards people for liking it is possibly Fant4stic. But that is only as I disagree that encouraging more of the same is intrinsically unhelpful in that case... well I suppose it's helpful if you want Fox to give up the likeness - but not helpful for those who'd like the Fantastic Four to be respected rather than mocked.

My Opinion remains exactly the same as it was in December.
I like the Characters but I do have some issues with other areas of the Movie in the details of it's implementation that hopefully will be fixed to some degree by the sequel - If however no such fixes are implemented then Episode 7 will be not bootstrapped up it will be downgraded in my estimation instead if not in 2016 possibly after 2018 - if after it's all finished and you are left with a "Was that it?" feeling.

It's possible to like something & feel some disappointment in it at the same time - that is pretty much my opinion of Star Trek Voyager or Babylon 5 too.

But Star Trek fans often give themselves a good giggle mocking Voyager I'm not so cruel as some about it - and likewise I'm sure Force Awakens will provide material for would-be comedians for decades to come, the question perhaps will be will it be affectionate humour or mocking humour though that gets aimed at the Sequel Trilogy. I'm hoping very much it's the former.

But that doesn't mean I can't ask why Maz doesn't put any darn locks on her doors either !!

-------

Any how.... Moving On...

Who taught Anakin to be a Force Ghost - if Qui Gon trained for years to be able to do it when he died then passed that on to Yod and Obi Wan - who taught Anakin that it was even possible to live on in the force as an individual after death - let alone how to achieve it ?

[ZeroWolf]

There's not much I can add to the main debate now without copy and pasting earlier responses, but it still seems you want more folk to have problems with ep 7.

Now as for the force ghost thing, who says it has to have been taught? I just assumed that it was a light side thing and that got me through all the movies.

Just remembered, I take offense at the way people regard casual fans...They are fans full stop, no separation. There are do many areas of the franchise that fans can consume it any way they want.

I don't get why people have to label themselves more. Is wanting to look down on someone else that important?

Rar, that last part wasn't directed at you by the way, more at fandoms in general.

[RAR]

There are fans and there are FANS - but lets not get into 'True fan' arguments if we can avoid it.

If you think that is ever productive then imagine the same premise applied to fans of the Michael Bay Movies Vs those who don't like them.
I have enough of a time putting up with people who's sole reason to decry the prequels is Jar Jar Binks exists.

The greater concern though isn't about any premise of "fans vs FANS" it's always a concern though is who is asking the questions at Disney about where the money is to be made - if the answer is the developing international market, & people under 20 that is who they will appeal to.
The argument there is if that is the intention are they even doing it well - that is a tricky one to judge at this early stage - Better than Phantom Menace perhaps?.

But then the thing people throw at the prequels as a criticism of their cynical commercialism is perhaps some of the reasons I actually like them.
They say that Queen Amidala is put in lots of dresses to appeal to the girls - fine ?>> and??
They say the put lots of different vehicles in to sell toys - again I don't see a problem.

https://pbs.twimg.com/tweet_video/CZ_iAp8WIAASiiI.mp4

If anything and to some possible chagrin and bemusement I would actually say that Disney has FAILED to capitalise on the merchandise potential of the Force Awakens at a level above that of the key characters - in other words they are marketing it by slapping Kylo Ren's Masked face on a cushion cover and not actually selling the Universe itself.

That is a major criticism I've had in the past of the marketing of the Transformers Movies - and I think it stand true with Episode 7 too and even the Marvel movies to some degree.

It seems silly to say a big corporation isn't being corporate enough - but in a way I think that is a fair criticism to make. They are marketing Star Wars like they market Disney Princess with the core character/s alone.

Which is a failing with Disney Princess Marketing too - what if you are a huge fan of the Mice in Cinderella for example - you would have a harder time finding things to buy - likewise the various 'Princes' or sidekicks.

I see that being the case with both Marvel and Star Wars to some degree perhaps that is more a topic for discussion in a Disney marketing thread - but I do think Lucas was a much more astute business man at least when it came to knowing how to sell his property beyond the film alone than Disney has so far proven to be.

For example an astute marketer would have left a few frames of the deleted vehicles in the Movie rather than cutting them out completely and leaving the toymakers with a product that is only in the novelization to try to sell.
An astute marketer would have used the at least 4 types of craft they cut from the Movie in the final product, how much revenue have they lost long term by not including a Y-Wing Analogue in the Movie ? or not using the Tie Interceptor Analogue originally planned too ?

https://pbs.twimg.com/tweet_video/CZBrYGRUoAAIuEc.mp4

I guess they think BB-8 an Kylo Ren can make them Billions enough - but what about all the boys who's focus on Star Wars is technology and cool Aliens - I think they are poorly served - heck even not giving Rey a new outfit seems like an over site to me - heck even keeping the mythical jacket on her for a few more frames would have made a few more bucks for someone down the line with "Rey in Starkiller Base garb" toys.