The Energon Pub

[AllNewSuperRobot]

The next step I suppose, from the overt sexualising of Transformers that has always bugged me, since Blackarachnia in Beast Wars. Yet also a thing that is both redundant to Alien Robots and will date this show horribly, in retrospect.

I just want to make sure I understand what is meant here, does this post imply that someone identifying as non binary is something that exists now and will not in the future?

Terminology that is very specific to this era. Like slang that is context specific to 80's/90's cartoons and shows.

[Dr. Caelus]

How is asking to be referred to as "they" sexualising?

The next step I suppose, from the overt sexualising

Further human gender identities, being erroneously applied to mechanical sentience.

And how is it redundant to aliens?

Alien Robots

Nonbinary: an umbrella term for gender identities that are not solely male or female‍—‌identities that are outside the gender binary.

They are Robots. Constructs, by various means. Humanising should only go so far. Otherwise you end up at Kissplayers.

So, setting aside everything else wrong with all of that, you're upset that a fictional alien who you feel couldn't identify as either a 'he' or a 'she', does not, in fact, identify as a 'he' or a 'she'?

[AllNewSuperRobot]

I didn't say I was upset. I've always found excessive humanising of Transformers creepy. Just as I found sexualising the designs of Transformers Very creepy.

[First-Aid]

I didn't say I was upset. I've always found excessive humanising of Transformers creepy. Just as I found sexualising the designs of Transformers Very creepy.

So we are talking about alien humanoid robots with no genders that humans can understand. It boils down to preference. Look at it this way...Blaster and Jazz in G1 loved rock music, the other's not so much. These bots conceivably can customize everything about themselves (color, shape, etc). They are the very definition of fluidic forms. Although it makes no sense to HAVE a gender as they don't have biology AT ALL, they could choose something they identified with.

My issue with "they" isn't in regard to gender fluidity. It offends my grammar sensibilities. "They", as defined in Webster's Dictionary for several hundred years, is PLURAL. PLURAL DAMNIT! You shouldn't be able to refer to a single person or object in the plural. #WordCrimes

[Dr. Caelus]

I didn't say I was upset. I've always found excessive humanising of Transformers creepy. Just as I found sexualising the designs of Transformers Very creepy.

So an alien identifying as "he" or "she" is an appropriate amount of humanizing, but an alien not identifying as a he or a she is an excessive amount of humanizing.

[Of course, all of this disregards the fact Nightshade isn' an alien to begon with.]

[Rodimus Knight]

I didn't say I was upset. I've always found excessive humanising of Transformers creepy. Just as I found sexualising the designs of Transformers Very creepy.

In the 80's it was complaints that there weren't any female transformers, now it's complaints that there is. A little ironic.

The fact that they all have different personalities is humanizing the transformers.
That they have emotions is humanizing the transformers.
Female transformers came about because of complaints that there weren't any females, that they were all shown as being male.

To me you might as well be complaining about how people humanize and sexualize a sports car by referring to it as her and she, and calling its form or lines sexy. Same thing with ships. They are almost always referred to as female. Humans humanize almost everything in life. We refer to "Mother Nature" humanizing nature. Is that also sexualizing nature?

The female transformers or robots in media are given a female shape so people will recognize its gender identity, the same way someone with gender dysphoria can use hormones to grow breasts or wear a nice set of fake ones, to show their gender identity.

If the transformers weren't humanized, you'd just be watching a show of automatons who were programed by some organic race to fight each other, rather then have their own reasons for doing so
and it would have ended after 13 episodes in the 80s.

[First-Aid]

I didn't say I was upset. I've always found excessive humanising of Transformers creepy. Just as I found sexualising the designs of Transformers Very creepy.

So an alien identifying as "he" or "she" is an appropriate amount of humanizing, but an alien not identifying as a he or a she is an excessive amount of humanizing.

[Of course, all of this disregards the fact Nightshade isn' an alien to begon with.]

Humanizing in this case may be done, not by the bots, but by the humans for ease of communication. We're used to certain verbal cues with communication. The bots may simply have adopted it as an easier way to communicate.

[Dr. Caelus]

I didn't say I was upset. I've always found excessive humanising of Transformers creepy. Just as I found sexualising the designs of Transformers Very creepy.

So an alien identifying as "he" or "she" is an appropriate amount of humanizing, but an alien not identifying as a he or a she is an excessive amount of humanizing.

[Of course, all of this disregards the fact Nightshade isn' an alien to begon with.]

Humanizing in this case may be done, not by the bots, but by the humans for ease of communication. We're used to certain verbal cues with communication. The bots may simply have adopted it as an easier way to communicate.

I think Hasbro's official line is that Transformers instinctively adapt to their social environment, rapidly learning new languages and customs, and that includes the concept of identifying with another race's gender roles. They then bring those ideas back to Cybertron, where some of it gets passed around and adopted by those who never had direct contact with a gendered race.

Although, again, this isn't really relevant to Nightshade.

[First-Aid]

I didn't say I was upset. I've always found excessive humanising of Transformers creepy. Just as I found sexualising the designs of Transformers Very creepy.

So an alien identifying as "he" or "she" is an appropriate amount of humanizing, but an alien not identifying as a he or a she is an excessive amount of humanizing.

[Of course, all of this disregards the fact Nightshade isn' an alien to begon with.]

Humanizing in this case may be done, not by the bots, but by the humans for ease of communication. We're used to certain verbal cues with communication. The bots may simply have adopted it as an easier way to communicate.

I think Hasbro's official line is that Transformers instinctively adapt to their social environment, rapidly learning new languages and customs, and that includes the concept of identifying with another race's gender roles. They then bring those ideas back to Cybertron, where some of it gets passed around and adopted by those who never had direct contact with a gendered race.

Although, again, this isn't really relevant to Nightshade.

In the end, it's a cartoon. I'm still mad they are using "they" as a singular. IT'S PLURAL DAMNIT! MORE THAN ONE! LERN UR GRAMMER!!!

[Dr. Caelus]

I'm still mad they are using "they" as a singular. IT'S PLURAL DAMNIT! MORE THAN ONE! LERN UR GRAMMER!!!

It annoys me when people say "you" when they mean "y'all", but language is fluid.

[First-Aid]

I'm still mad they are using "they" as a singular. IT'S PLURAL DAMNIT! MORE THAN ONE! LERN UR GRAMMER!!!

It annoys me when people say "you" when they mean "y'all", but language is fluid.

Interestingly enough, "you" actually CAN be singular and plural according to Webster's. Southerners couldn't deal with it and corrected it in their own way

1. used to refer to the person or people that the speaker is addressing.
"are you listening?"
used to refer to the person being addressed together with other people regarded in the same class.
"you Australians"
used in exclamations to address one or more people.
"you fools"

2. used to refer to any person in general.
"after a while, you get used to it"

[First-Aid]

Okay, I have to correct myself. "They" CAN be used as a singular in certain situations but those uses are not as a personal pronoun, simply a generic one.

[Sabrblade]

FWIW, "genders" =/= "sexes".

[Dr. Caelus]

I'm still mad they are using "they" as a singular. IT'S PLURAL DAMNIT! MORE THAN ONE! LERN UR GRAMMER!!!

It annoys me when people say "you" when they mean "y'all", but language is fluid.

Interestingly enough, "you" actually CAN be singular and plural according to Webster's.

I know. I was joking. I assumed you were as well.

[First-Aid]

I'm still mad they are using "they" as a singular. IT'S PLURAL DAMNIT! MORE THAN ONE! LERN UR GRAMMER!!!

It annoys me when people say "you" when they mean "y'all", but language is fluid.

Interestingly enough, "you" actually CAN be singular and plural according to Webster's.

I know. I was joking. I assumed you were as well.

You never know anymore online. I had a problem reading your body language...

[Dr. Caelus]

FWIW, "genders" =/= "sexes".

Yeah, the whole, 'Transformers shouldn't have genders because they shouldn't have sexes' argument is kind of eyeroll worthy.

People who think, 'Arcee wouldn't ask people to refer to her as a "she" in conversation because she wasn't created with a vagina and uterus for making babies' are basically presuming that one's choice of pronoun mainly serves to declare one's role in procreation. Seems like they have a pretty weird concept about what information is relevant and appropriate to expect for ordinary conversation.

===

Thinking about it more, I wish the conversation in the show had been more like:

Optimus: "These three pieces represent Hashtag, Jawbreaker, and Nightshade..."

Nightshade: "I'd like to be on the left please."

Optimus: "Very well, Mo, please move h- ...?"

Mo (Telepathing through gauntlet): "Nightshade isn't a he or a she."

Nightshade: "Neither word feels like it really fits me..."

Optimus: "Please move their piece to the left side."

===

There's probably a good reason they didn't do it that way, but it felt weird for a very young human and a very, very young terran to use the phrase "preferred pronouns". But then I do have trouble getting a bead on how old Mo is supposed to be.

[Sabrblade]

Thinking about it more, I wish the conversation in the show had been more like:

It's possible the show didn't want to risk making Optimus sound insensitive by having him make an assumption about Nightshade before being corrected afterward. Having him simply wonder about it upfront avoided that chance of insensitivity.

I don't disagree that there was probably a smoother and more natural way of handling it, but I'm sure someone would have still raised an issue with how was handled no matter what.

[Dr. Caelus]

Thinking about it more, I wish the conversation in the show had been more like:

It's possible the show didn't want to risk making Optimus sound insensitive by having him make an assumption about Nightshade before being corrected afterward. Having him simply wonder about it upfront avoided that chance of insensitivity.

I remembered him stopping himself after starting to say either "his" or "her", but maybe hr paused a half syllable sooner. Either way, it was the little kid busting out the formal vocab without any prior hint of awareness of such things that felt really forced to me, but maybe Mo is older than she looks.

Also, Nightshade was the only one who introduced themself without help to start with, so it felt odd they needed Mo to label them at all.

[D-Maximal_Primal]

I appreciate the civility of the discussion right now, I do.

But I will ask that members use the spoiler tags where necessary please. You must remember that for a good portion of the fandom, episodes 1 and 2 are the only ones available, so if you can please extend a courtesy spoiler tag for details past those episodes, mostly for plot and some character related items.

Thanks, again I appreciate the good conversations, just be wary of spoilers for others please

[Dr. Caelus]

You must remember that for a good portion of the fandom, episodes 1 and 2 are the only ones available, so if you can please extend a courtesy spoiler tag for details past those episodes, mostly for plot and some character related items.

Honestly, it's killing me not to talk about tbe Beast Machines influences seeded in the pilot and then built on on further towards the end of the season.

Technoorganics!

Bots that don't need energon!

Caves full of magic water!

Possible connections to the quintessons!

[D-Maximal_Primal]

You must remember that for a good portion of the fandom, episodes 1 and 2 are the only ones available, so if you can please extend a courtesy spoiler tag for details past those episodes, mostly for plot and some character related items.

Honestly, it's killing me not to talk about tbe Beast Machines influences seeded in the pilot and then built on on further towards the end of the season.

Technoorganics!

Bots that don't need energon!

Caves full of magic water!

Possible connections to the quintessons!

I agree on all of this, I didn't see it initially, but it is pretty in your face when you start to pay attention, and that's really neat

[william-james88]

I didn't say I was upset. I've always found excessive humanising of Transformers creepy. Just as I found sexualising the designs of Transformers Very creepy.

So an alien identifying as "he" or "she" is an appropriate amount of humanizing, but an alien not identifying as a he or a she is an excessive amount of humanizing.

[Of course, all of this disregards the fact Nightshade isn' an alien to begon with.]

Humanizing in this case may be done, not by the bots, but by the humans for ease of communication. We're used to certain verbal cues with communication. The bots may simply have adopted it as an easier way to communicate.

I think Hasbro's official line is that Transformers instinctively adapt to their social environment, rapidly learning new languages and customs, and that includes the concept of identifying with another race's gender roles. They then bring those ideas back to Cybertron, where some of it gets passed around and adopted by those who never had direct contact with a gendered race.

Although, again, this isn't really relevant to Nightshade.

In the end, it's a cartoon. I'm still mad they are using "they" as a singular. IT'S PLURAL DAMNIT! MORE THAN ONE! LERN UR GRAMMER!!!

FYI, they isn't strictly plural, according to US grammar standards. You probably use it as a singular without even realizing it. Like when talking about a toy haul or a toy someone got. It's their toy, their haul, ect.

[AllNewSuperRobot]

In closing, since this page progressed significantly while I was asleep. Also some were leaping to conclusions about what I was getting at.

I was talking to a nonbinary friend of mine (whom I jokingly nickname 'Mondas') not too long ago. That there was going to be a nonbinary character debuting in the new Transformers cartoon. Mondas was happy that there would be some representation, at the level of a child's cartoon. Which ideally will help to normalise the gender for that generation. Then I found out who the character was and relayed that. The exact quote was "Oh great, a robot? Not a human being ...FFS"

[Quantum Surge]

I wonder if people think Nightshade is better handled than Cyberverse Acid Storm. I say that since the person's explanation of the animation error/altered models comes off as an attempt to make it seem like it was a totally deliberate thing even though the explanation felt last-minute.

[TaraTech]

Skywarp having the ability to teleport made me so happy. Has this happened since G1?