The Energon Pub

[Bumblebee21]

3rd party combiners are not fun to play with

They really don't look like it. I know from watching Emgo that he prefers the 3rd party combiners (he really did not find Devastator good), but to me they are just too busy and like you said not fun. I have got myself to the point where I can get my combiners from alt mode to combined mode in under 8 minutes. 8 minutes to transform and combine 6 figures. That is awesome, and very easy to switch out and do all kinds of things, including scramble. That to me is the fun of it. They look awesome as collectibles on my shelves, but they are also fun to take off the shelves and play with

i want a combiner i can take off the shelf and play with without the fear of it breaking.all third party combiners look busy. Quantron and wings of Uranos are the busiest.they also can take almost a couple hours to do. Switching combiners is probably the best and most fun feature on the combiner wars figures. Combiner wars figures are better than most 3rd party products

[Evil Eye]

The funny thing is, I used to be a big proponent of Combiner Wars. For the most part the designs are great. Aesthetically they look good (though I am rather fond of a lot of 3rd party aesthetics, especially Maketoys and their anime-esque super robot look).

A few things put me off Combiner Wars.

1: The quality. From the first figure I got, there were QC issues out the wazoo. Quite aside from the dreadful, dreadful plastic, my Fireflight had a leg pin that was inserted wonky, my Alpha Bravo had a chronically loose waist and a misaligned combiner peg ratchet, Skydive would NOT hold together in jet mode, and all of the figures I got had difficulty holding their weapons. The cracking HFG ports was the last straw in terms of QC issues.

2: The overall cheapness and over-simplification. Engineering wise, they just aren't up to snuff. What was there was OK, but there wasn't enough there. No ankle or wrist articulation, open hollow limbs, lack of functionality (see Brawl and his immobile turret) and in some cases highly unconvincing vehicle modes (especially with the jets, who were pretty much just blocks with wings and nosecones). Then there were the HFGs, which were fine as hands (though the lack of properly articulated fingers sucked) but absolutely appalling as feet. All they had to do was do what the G1 figures did and pack the hands and feet with the main robot. And when they did do away with the HFGs they screwed up by not even accomplishing what the HFGs could do- the dedicated hands and feet were just solid, inarticulate blocks with nothing to do outside of combined mode. And the hands actually had even LESS articulation than the HFGs! The transformations were simple to the point of being insulting- the Voyagers weren't so bad in that regard but the Deluxes were just pathetic. To make matters even worse, rather than stagger the line out and make more original molds over a longer period of time, they rehashed the same few molds over and over again, wasting line budget on pointless redecos nobody asked for. And don't even get me started on Devastator, with his flimsy, brickish and ugly individual components who were all gimped for the sake of a combined mode that doesn't really work and looks disproportionate, with twig arms and absurdly long legs.

3: Distribution woes. None of Wave 2 was ever released in the UK, robbing us of a chance at a complete Superion and completely dashing hopes of Menasor. Same went for the "proper" Slingshot and Wildrider. Devastator was never released here (though why you'd want him is beyond me) and the only way to get any of them was to pay extortionate prices on eBay to import them. To put things in perspective, there were people asking for £40 for Air Raid. I could buy a brand-new Figma for that.

So yeah. I've been soured to CW for good. Unless HasTak goes through some kind of renaissance and returns to Unicron Trilogy quality plastic with HFTD-level engineering, or Takara does official MP combiners, I'm never touching official combiners again.

>"B-But muh simplicity! Muh affordabilty! Muh official product! Think of the children!"

Sod official product. When Chinese fans and KNOCKOFF MERCHANTS are producing far better quality product than your own in-house designers you know you f***ed up. Simplicity is what ruined the line- they're so simple that they lack basic articulation like ankles and wrists (and in the case of Hasbro Devastator, ELBOWS). They're not even that affordable, with deluxes going for an outrageous £16. As for the children? I wouldn't buy CW figures for my children if I had them, because I know they'd just break, most likely through no fault of the kids.

Jesus, I'm slowly but surely turning into Rated X.

[Hellscream9999]

Sod official product. When Chinese fans and KNOCKOFF MERCHANTS are producing far better quality product than your own in-house designers you know you f***ed up. Simplicity is what ruined the line- they're so simple that they lack basic articulation like ankles and wrists (and in the case of Hasbro Devastator, ELBOWS). They're not even that affordable, with deluxes going for an outrageous £16. As for the children? I wouldn't buy CW figures for my children if I had them, because I know they'd just break, most likely through no fault of the kids.

Jesus, I'm slowly but surely turning into Rated X.

I know that feeling (still lookin' at you Magnus ) it's kind of sad the kiddy line of rid has the best quality out of the whole franchise right now, my figures are gloriously solid, I mean, Fracture would just need pins in his wrist or something to be completely flawless.

[william-james88]

Sod official product. When Chinese fans and KNOCKOFF MERCHANTS are producing far better quality product than your own in-house designers you know you f***ed up. Simplicity is what ruined the line- they're so simple that they lack basic articulation like ankles and wrists (and in the case of Hasbro Devastator, ELBOWS). They're not even that affordable, with deluxes going for an outrageous £16. As for the children? I wouldn't buy CW figures for my children if I had them, because I know they'd just break, most likely through no fault of the kids.

Jesus, I'm slowly but surely turning into Rated X.

If you swear off official products then why do you follow a thread of official products you know you dislike? While you raised good points, it's more that question that is on my mind. You dont see people who dislike 3p speak about how much they hate them in our 3P forums.

[Evil Eye]

Sod official product. When Chinese fans and KNOCKOFF MERCHANTS are producing far better quality product than your own in-house designers you know you f***ed up. Simplicity is what ruined the line- they're so simple that they lack basic articulation like ankles and wrists (and in the case of Hasbro Devastator, ELBOWS). They're not even that affordable, with deluxes going for an outrageous £16. As for the children? I wouldn't buy CW figures for my children if I had them, because I know they'd just break, most likely through no fault of the kids.

Jesus, I'm slowly but surely turning into Rated X.

If you swear off official products then why do you follow a thread of official products you know you dislike? While you raised good points, it's more that question that is on my mind. You dont see people who dislike 3p speak about how much they hate them in our 3P forums.

A mixture of bitterness and an attempt to get the word out to people that they're buying dross I guess. I dunno.

[william-james88]

Sod official product. When Chinese fans and KNOCKOFF MERCHANTS are producing far better quality product than your own in-house designers you know you f***ed up. Simplicity is what ruined the line- they're so simple that they lack basic articulation like ankles and wrists (and in the case of Hasbro Devastator, ELBOWS). They're not even that affordable, with deluxes going for an outrageous £16. As for the children? I wouldn't buy CW figures for my children if I had them, because I know they'd just break, most likely through no fault of the kids.

Jesus, I'm slowly but surely turning into Rated X.

If you swear off official products then why do you follow a thread of official products you know you dislike? While you raised good points, it's more that question that is on my mind. You dont see people who dislike 3p speak about how much they hate them in our 3P forums.

A mixture of bitterness and an attempt to get the word out to people that they're buying dross I guess. I dunno.

Sounds a lot like Rated X to me. But at least you admit it so that puts you a cut above, I guess.

[Autobot N]

Personally, I don't think that I've been buying dross. I've had very good QC with every CW figure I've bought, and the only one that has broken is Alpha Bravo (it doesn't affect combined mode, though). And I don't mind all the mold reuse (except if it involves the Breakdown or Brawl molds), as, like D-Max said, I have a feel for all the combiners and can combine and decombine them very quickly.

[william-james88]

Also, complexity isnt everything. I once thought it was fundamental in determining how good a toy was but I stopped when sense came to me. If complexity was everything, then ROTF Mixmaster would be a better toy than Cybertorn Hotshot, but its not. And for combiners, when in limb mode, it makes no difference how complex a toy is.

Plus, the G1 toys all shared the same engineering, they were just slightly different bodies of what is essentially the same toy, which they had to be inorder to work under the Scrable City system.

[Kurona]

Plus, when talking about complexity; I think a lot of people seem to forget the fact these are toys.
Sure, third parties may be able to accomplish a look that's a lot more accurate and detailed and without kibble and such. But the method to get there is a very complex very long transformation which isn't really meant to be fun. Part of the fun of a Transformer is the transforming; transforming a third party toy is stripped down to just something you have to do to get it to the other mode. Which is fine, but it's not quite what a lot of people are after.
I said it on the MP Inferno thread, but my stance on third parties is that I prefer buying add-ons like Perfect Effect's CW Hands/Feet. It keeps the simplicity, it's not expensive as heck, it adds to the figure rather than completely erase HasTak's design for the sake of accuracy or... looking really stupid http://news.tfw2005.com/wp-content/uplo ... sor-01.jpg .

[william-james88]

Sure, third parties may be able to accomplish a look that's a lot more accurate and detailed and without kibble and such

Really?! I have never seen that. 3p companies are usually always innacurate inorder to not get sued and they still have tons of kibble. I will give you the detailed part but any complexity and extra moving parts is often times because they are unable to properly design something at the base level and thus need to add at later development stages (which is evident on figures like Appollyon).

Hasbro has less moving parts but is able to accomplish a similar look due to them having the best toy engineers on the planet who pride tmeselves on streamline and inovative techniques of transformation. I am talking of Takara, of course, and an amazing example I could give you would me movie Starscream. It looks like the most complex toy ever, with a ton of detail, but the transformation is straightforward and hassel free. A more extreme example would be movie Hound which Takara really aimed to have as much the look of the film with minimal kibble in a quick transformation. And they achieved it. It is just as hard if not harder to engineer a simple transformation rather than a more complex one, when aiming for a similar end product.

[Kurona]

Sure, third parties may be able to accomplish a look that's a lot more accurate and detailed and without kibble and such

Really?! I have never seen that. 3p companies are usually always innacurate inorder to not get sued and they still have tons of kibble. I will give you the detailed part but any complexity and extra moving parts is often times because they are unable to properly design something at the base level and thus need to add at later development stages (which is evident on figures like Appollyon).

Hasbro has less moving parts but is able to accomplish a similar look due to them having the best toy engineers on the planet who pride tmeselves on streamline and inovative techniques of transformation. I am talking of Takara, of course, and an amazing example I could give you would me movie Starscream. It looks like the most complex toy ever, with a ton of detail, but the transformation is straightforward and hassel free. A more extreme example would be movie Hound which Takara really aimed to have as much the look of the film with minimal kibble in a quick transformation. And they achieved it.

Well... I guess when I say that, I'm meaning more in theory. What they can do. Due to the extra complexity and shifting of parts, they can achieve a certain look easier than the simplicity of CW provides. They have a lot more room and ability to do something with that complexity. But for that, it loses out on, of course, simplicity.

But nah, I generally agree with ya and get what you're talking about.
It's funny; it's a totally different experience when you get 'em in-hand. At first when I got into collecting I was all like "alright, I'll get this because I want a Bruticus to display", and that was it. I didn't even think of just transforming them much aside from just getting them from one form to another and I likely wouldn't transform unless for storage. But as soon as I got CW Blast Off - literally my first Transformer since like 2008 - I was transforming him back and forth so many times. It was and still is kinda fun.

[Ironhidensh]

Sod official product. When Chinese fans and KNOCKOFF MERCHANTS are producing far better quality product than your own in-house designers you know you f***ed up. Simplicity is what ruined the line- they're so simple that they lack basic articulation like ankles and wrists (and in the case of Hasbro Devastator, ELBOWS). They're not even that affordable, with deluxes going for an outrageous £16. As for the children? I wouldn't buy CW figures for my children if I had them, because I know they'd just break, most likely through no fault of the kids.

Jesus, I'm slowly but surely turning into Rated X.

If you swear off official products then why do you follow a thread of official products you know you dislike? While you raised good points, it's more that question that is on my mind. You dont see people who dislike 3p speak about how much they hate them in our 3P forums.

I know you weren't talking to me, but I'm going to answer anyway, my good sir.

Its because I want to like them. I want to get the same joy out of today's current product that I did when I was but a wee lad. I just cant, and it makes me sad, which makes me bitter, which makes me angry, which makes me American.

I have been trying to keep my negativity to myself, and not comment on the threads, though.

[Microraptor]

Hey guys, just some thoughts I wanted to share. When Quantron (not computron first came out), it was a hot item. I love the techonobots due to their futuristic look, how their colours work and how the overal combiner looks, so this was tempting. He is dirt cheap on BBTS now but I am definitely no longer interested. Compared to Takara's, he doesn't look much like Computron and definitely not when you look at the individual members. They look overworked and not smooth at all. Like other 3p toys, those look less G1 and more Neo G1. Lightspeed is a good example since he looks nothing like the car in the cartoon.



Plus the combiner peg system Hasbro and Takara developped is the best so far. So I am glad I decided not to get him back when I had found the price too much to bear.

Not saying anything against anyone who did get him, since I too wanted him. But looking back, it just doesnt look as good as the upcoming Takara Computron, nor as fun to play with.

On the plus side, he is substantially less likely to suffer stress fractures from the simple act of combining him on account of his plastic not being laced with suckium.

Also more paint, better detailing, ANKLE TILTS etc.

Assuming you're talking about the hasbro one, it has ankle tilts too. They don't have as much paint, but I think the plastic colors allow for some decent visual interest.

[Microraptor]

The funny thing is, I used to be a big proponent of Combiner Wars. For the most part the designs are great. Aesthetically they look good (though I am rather fond of a lot of 3rd party aesthetics, especially Maketoys and their anime-esque super robot look).

A few things put me off Combiner Wars.

1: The quality. From the first figure I got, there were QC issues out the wazoo. Quite aside from the dreadful, dreadful plastic, my Fireflight had a leg pin that was inserted wonky, my Alpha Bravo had a chronically loose waist and a misaligned combiner peg ratchet, Skydive would NOT hold together in jet mode, and all of the figures I got had difficulty holding their weapons. The cracking HFG ports was the last straw in terms of QC issues.

2: The overall cheapness and over-simplification. Engineering wise, they just aren't up to snuff. What was there was OK, but there wasn't enough there. No ankle or wrist articulation, open hollow limbs, lack of functionality (see Brawl and his immobile turret) and in some cases highly unconvincing vehicle modes (especially with the jets, who were pretty much just blocks with wings and nosecones). Then there were the HFGs, which were fine as hands (though the lack of properly articulated fingers sucked) but absolutely appalling as feet. All they had to do was do what the G1 figures did and pack the hands and feet with the main robot. And when they did do away with the HFGs they screwed up by not even accomplishing what the HFGs could do- the dedicated hands and feet were just solid, inarticulate blocks with nothing to do outside of combined mode. And the hands actually had even LESS articulation than the HFGs! The transformations were simple to the point of being insulting- the Voyagers weren't so bad in that regard but the Deluxes were just pathetic. To make matters even worse, rather than stagger the line out and make more original molds over a longer period of time, they rehashed the same few molds over and over again, wasting line budget on pointless redecos nobody asked for. And don't even get me started on Devastator, with his flimsy, brickish and ugly individual components who were all gimped for the sake of a combined mode that doesn't really work and looks disproportionate, with twig arms and absurdly long legs.

3: Distribution woes. None of Wave 2 was ever released in the UK, robbing us of a chance at a complete Superion and completely dashing hopes of Menasor. Same went for the "proper" Slingshot and Wildrider. Devastator was never released here (though why you'd want him is beyond me) and the only way to get any of them was to pay extortionate prices on eBay to import them. To put things in perspective, there were people asking for £40 for Air Raid. I could buy a brand-new Figma for that.

So yeah. I've been soured to CW for good. Unless HasTak goes through some kind of renaissance and returns to Unicron Trilogy quality plastic with HFTD-level engineering, or Takara does official MP combiners, I'm never touching official combiners again.

>"B-But muh simplicity! Muh affordabilty! Muh official product! Think of the children!"

Sod official product. When Chinese fans and KNOCKOFF MERCHANTS are producing far better quality product than your own in-house designers you know you f***ed up. Simplicity is what ruined the line- they're so simple that they lack basic articulation like ankles and wrists (and in the case of Hasbro Devastator, ELBOWS). They're not even that affordable, with deluxes going for an outrageous £16. As for the children? I wouldn't buy CW figures for my children if I had them, because I know they'd just break, most likely through no fault of the kids.

Jesus, I'm slowly but surely turning into Rated X.

I don't see how they're "simplistic". They're efficient. They do exactly what they need to. And if your main complaints are simplicity and plastic quality, how are knock-off companies better? They're whole thing is that they simplify and use cheaper plastic to decrease costs.

[william-james88]

And if your main complaints are simplicity and plastic quality, how are knock-off companies better? They're whole thing is that they simplify and use cheaper plastic to decrease costs.

Times have changed. KOs can be really high quality now.

Check these out:

pretender-%3Cb%3Egroundbreaker%3C/bridgemagnet-4k-reviews-oversized-aoe-lockdown-ko-t106165.php

ko-oversized-feral-rex-t106557.php

[Autobot N]

And if your main complaints are simplicity and plastic quality, how are knock-off companies better? They're whole thing is that they simplify and use cheaper plastic to decrease costs.

Times have changed. KOs can be really high quality now.

Check these out:

pretender-%3Cb%3Egroundbreaker%3C/bridgemagnet-4k-reviews-oversized-aoe-lockdown-ko-t106165.php

ko-oversized-feral-rex-t106557.php

Don't forget Takasa Tony. I got an MP Wheeljack from them, and the quality is excellent.

[Bumblebee21]

And if your main complaints are simplicity and plastic quality, how are knock-off companies better? They're whole thing is that they simplify and use cheaper plastic to decrease costs.

Times have changed. KOs can be really high quality now.

Check these out:

pretender-%3Cb%3Egroundbreaker%3C/bridgemagnet-4k-reviews-oversized-aoe-lockdown-ko-t106165.php

ko-oversized-feral-rex-t106557.php

Don't forget Takasa Tony. I got an MP Wheeljack from them, and the quality is excellent.

I want to get the tracks they have. I have wheeljack and bumblebee and they are awesome

[Wolfman Jake]

I know this is more from the conversation a few pages (and days) ago, but I would like to point out that Combiner Wars Smokescreen isn't lacking a lot of paint apps. He's actually got a ton...in alt mode. Where it lacks is in robot mode, and the problem is that he's basically made of blue plastic, so we get very little of the mixture of whites and reds in addition to blue that we are used to from this G1 appearances. Combiner Wars Wheeljack suffers a similar problem, with more attention paid to his alt mode than his robot mode. Takara's Lynx Master seems to fix most of these issues, except for its complete absence of Smokescreen.

As for the quality of Combiner War figures, I've not had one issue myself yet in terms of breakage, stress marks, cracks, etc. Sometimes, joints are loose, but that's a gamble with Transformers toys in general, even so far back as the Armada stuff. In fact, the only toys that have broken on me have been the older ones, like Energon Shockblast, whose arm just suddenly sheared off on me while he was in storage. Are you guys sure you're not hulking out on your poor toys, forcing square pegs into round holes or otherwise using excessive force?

[william-james88]

As for the quality of Combiner War figures, I've not had one issue myself yet in terms of breakage, stress marks, cracks, etc. Sometimes, joints are loose, but that's a gamble with Transformers toys in general

Yeah same here, I have had no breakage with mine. The only thing I found problematic was how the Dead End limb would split when in arm mode.

[ZeroWolf]

I've also had no issues with any of the cw deluxes, a bit of trouble with hot spot not tabbing together properly. But these are toys, and with capitalism in full swing, maximised profit is the order of the day for hasbro. Takara could of easily been the same if it originated in a different country.

It's our right as consumers to demand better but we should also try to see what they're thinking lies so we can compromise.

[Ironhidensh]

Today's randomness: walked into my first walmart, and found a case of CW deluxe wave 2. Bought one of each to sell on ebay.

[william-james88]

Today's randomness: walked into my first walmart, and found a case of CW deluxe wave 2. Bought one of each to sell on ebay.

They sell for a lot more than retail on the secondary market?

[Ironhidensh]

Today's randomness: walked into my first walmart, and found a case of CW deluxe wave 2. Bought one of each to sell on ebay.

They sell for a lot more than retail on the secondary market?

Sealed in package, you can double your money. I'm not gouging the price like scalpers are, so at the very least I'll come out out even plus 20 to 30 percent. Worth a shot at walmart retail price.

[Bumblebee21]

Today's randomness: walked into my first walmart, and found a case of CW deluxe wave 2. Bought one of each to sell on ebay.

that was a lucky find

[Ironhidensh]

Today's randomness: walked into my first walmart, and found a case of CW deluxe wave 2. Bought one of each to sell on ebay.

that was a lucky find

It just means they found a year old box during inventory.