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Because some of that line's toys were genuinely awful and are in dire need of being remade to be as good as the rest of the toys in that line that were legitimately good/great, which the MP treatment could easily deliver upon.Kurona wrote:Why the Energon cast?
Not the animation models. People don't hate on those.Kurona wrote:Like... that's the thing almost everyone universally agrees is bad,
I'd say Shockblast was awesome and his original toy definitely needs a redo.Kurona wrote:and unlike Armada having Starscream it doesn't at least have a fan-favourite character everyone points to as one thing they liked about it.
I strongly disagree with that because practically every member of the of the TFP cast already has a close-enough-to-show-accurate toy. There are very very few of them who do not.Kurona wrote:I'd say TFP's main cast deserves the treatment personally, but, uh... maybe too soon.
Virtually everyone from Armada needs the MP treatment. Their original toys were horribly compromised by the Mini-Con gimmick. Unicron and Tidal Wave are probably the only ones who don't need MPs (all Tidal Wave really needs is a pair of knees).Kurona wrote:Armada I could only really see Optimus, Starscream and Hot Shot. Maybe Megatron, no-one else is really that memorable or loved. Maybe Red Alert? IDK. I can't see there being an interest in Armada Masterpieces beyond a few characters.
And yet, in spite of how show-accurate the vast majority of that line's figures were, a small amount of them were still so near yet so far. The MP treatment, however, could make those few go all the way.Kurona wrote:Animated at least, like Beast Wars, started off with just the five autobots and just the five decepticons. And for the most part, it kind of stayed to that same cast without changes unlike Beast Wars. So all of 'em would make sense. Masterpiece Lugnut sounds sexy.
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
Ironhidensh wrote:shajaki wrote:Only if they cheap out. They could use the exact same engineering, but he would have to be upscaled.Ironhidensh wrote:I don't know if it was mentioned yet, but if we get a MP Cheator, wouldn't that almost garunteed a MP Tigatron?
The original toy was the same size, a straight repaint. We all know how they love to make repaints.
They're basing these MP on the cartoon models, though. Tigatron was much bigger than Cheetor:Ironhidensh wrote:shajaki wrote:Only if they cheap out. They could use the exact same engineering, but he would have to be upscaled.Ironhidensh wrote:I don't know if it was mentioned yet, but if we get a MP Cheator, wouldn't that almost garunteed a MP Tigatron?
The original toy was the same size, a straight repaint. We all know how they love to make repaints.
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
Sabrblade wrote:Because some of that line's toys were genuinely awful and are in dire need of being remade to be as good as the rest of the toys in that line that were legitimately good/great, which the MP treatment could easily deliver upon.Kurona wrote:Why the Energon cast?Not the animation models. People don't hate on those.Kurona wrote:Like... that's the thing almost everyone universally agrees is bad,
G1 had plenty of terrible episode stories yet you don't see people harping the G1 MPs for their mere existence.I'd say Shockblast was awesome and his original toy definitely needs a redo.Kurona wrote:and unlike Armada having Starscream it doesn't at least have a fan-favourite character everyone points to as one thing they liked about it.I strongly disagree with that because practically every member of the of the TFP cast already has a close-enough-to-show-accurate toy. There are very very few of them who do not.Kurona wrote:I'd say TFP's main cast deserves the treatment personally, but, uh... maybe too soon.Virtually everyone from Armada needs the MP treatment. Their original toys were horribly compromised by the Mini-Con gimmick. Unicron and Tidal Wave are probably the only ones who don't need MPs (all Tidal Wave really needs is a pair of knees).Kurona wrote:Armada I could only really see Optimus, Starscream and Hot Shot. Maybe Megatron, no-one else is really that memorable or loved. Maybe Red Alert? IDK. I can't see there being an interest in Armada Masterpieces beyond a few characters.And yet, in spite of how show-accurate the vast majority of that line's figures were, a small amount of them were still so near yet so far. The MP treatment, however, could make those few go all the way.Kurona wrote:Animated at least, like Beast Wars, started off with just the five autobots and just the five decepticons. And for the most part, it kind of stayed to that same cast without changes unlike Beast Wars. So all of 'em would make sense. Masterpiece Lugnut sounds sexy.
You're talking about something completely different than I am. You're talking about the motion, fluidity, and range of movement implemented into the objects depicted on screen. I'm taking about the aesthetics and appearances of those objects themselves. The designs and looks of the models. No one hated Megatron's Galvatron motif. No one hated Optimus's classic window-chested look or his Voltron-esque Super Mode. No one hated all the G1 homages that Energon's character designs were swimming in. The visual designs themselves of the were highly praised.Kurona wrote:... yes, people definitely hated the animation models. The animation was one of the most obvious and immense problems and critiques of Energon; even if the models were animated with some level of competence that wouldn't make them good. They still had pretty much two expressions, awful lighting, stood out like an army of sore thumbs and were ridiculously toy accurate.
Not every character who has gotten a MP is beloved or even known by everyone.Kurona wrote:Also, I'm... not entirely sure why you're saying Masterpiece for figures that need good toy updates. I'll certainly agree with you that Energon had a good toyline, but Masterpiece is much more about giving people the characters they loved to watch on-screen in a perfect representation.
This isn't about that. This is about which characters would need MPs to get their looks and articulation right since their old toys failed to on one front or the other or both.Kurona wrote:There is next to no love for the characters in Energon, and hence there'd be too small a market to really sell a Masterpiece, say, Snow Cat too.
By redesigning them. MPs are updates that keep the same designs from the past.Kurona wrote:Updating old toylines from many different eras is Generations' shtick, not Masterpiece's.
Again, completely irrelevant to my original point.Kurona wrote:Like, if they updated Energon Demolishor for the next Generations line after Titans Return, I might pick him up - because he'd be a voyager or a deluxe, hence he'd be cheap so if I liked the look of him I could buy him without any real worry. When it gets to Masterpiece level where you're gonna be asking like, upwards of $60 or whatever for the guy, you really have to be into the character. And there's next to no fanbase for the Energon characters.
G1 and Beast Wars having Masterpiece lines work because they're immensely popular and there's a lot of people who, having now grown to an age where they have the money to throw at an expensive, perfect show-accurate representation of the characters from the show they knew and loved, will happily throw money at an expensive, perfect show-accurate representation of the characters from the show they knew and loved. You'll get people who will buy Masterpieces because they think "hey, that's cool", but that is definitely not the main market and it wouldn't justify the expenses put into making a Masterpiece figure. A Masterpiece update of characters from Energon - aside from maybe the leaders and the kid-appeal character - is about as likely as Masterpiece updates of Deluxe Insecticons and the Action Masters.
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
Leonardo wrote:Take your lips off my pipe!
Sabrblade wrote:You're talking about something completely different than I am. You're talking about the motion, fluidity, and range of movement implemented into the objects depicted on screen. I'm taking about the aesthetics and appearances of those objects themselves. The designs and looks of the models. No one hated Megatron's Galvatron motif. No one hated Optimus's classic window-chested look or his Voltron-esque Super Mode. No one hated all the G1 homages that Energon's character designs were swimming in. The visual designs themselves of the were highly praised.Kurona wrote:... yes, people definitely hated the animation models. The animation was one of the most obvious and immense problems and critiques of Energon; even if the models were animated with some level of competence that wouldn't make them good. They still had pretty much two expressions, awful lighting, stood out like an army of sore thumbs and were ridiculously toy accurate.
Look me in the eye and tell me this looks terrible on a purely aesthetic level regardless of how badly the show handled this thing:Not every character who has gotten a MP is beloved or even known by everyone.Kurona wrote:Also, I'm... not entirely sure why you're saying Masterpiece for figures that need good toy updates. I'll certainly agree with you that Energon had a good toyline, but Masterpiece is much more about giving people the characters they loved to watch on-screen in a perfect representation.This isn't about that. This is about which characters would need MPs to get their looks and articulation right since their old toys failed to on one front or the other or both.Kurona wrote:There is next to no love for the characters in Energon, and hence there'd be too small a market to really sell a Masterpiece, say, Snow Cat too.By redesigning them. MPs are updates that keep the same designs from the past.Kurona wrote:Updating old toylines from many different eras is Generations' shtick, not Masterpiece's.Again, completely irrelevant to my original point.Kurona wrote:Like, if they updated Energon Demolishor for the next Generations line after Titans Return, I might pick him up - because he'd be a voyager or a deluxe, hence he'd be cheap so if I liked the look of him I could buy him without any real worry. When it gets to Masterpiece level where you're gonna be asking like, upwards of $60 or whatever for the guy, you really have to be into the character. And there's next to no fanbase for the Energon characters.
G1 and Beast Wars having Masterpiece lines work because they're immensely popular and there's a lot of people who, having now grown to an age where they have the money to throw at an expensive, perfect show-accurate representation of the characters from the show they knew and loved, will happily throw money at an expensive, perfect show-accurate representation of the characters from the show they knew and loved. You'll get people who will buy Masterpieces because they think "hey, that's cool", but that is definitely not the main market and it wouldn't justify the expenses put into making a Masterpiece figure. A Masterpiece update of characters from Energon - aside from maybe the leaders and the kid-appeal character - is about as likely as Masterpiece updates of Deluxe Insecticons and the Action Masters.
Sabrblade wrote:Virtually everyone from Armada needs the MP treatment. Their original toys were horribly compromised by the Mini-Con gimmick. Unicron and Tidal Wave are probably the only ones who don't need MPs (all Tidal Wave really needs is a pair of knees).
william-james88 wrote:If ever Sabrblade decides to go on vacation, I am glad to know we can rely on you.
Burn wrote:So how about that possible MP Cheetor guys? Guys? Anyone?
william-james88 wrote:If ever Sabrblade decides to go on vacation, I am glad to know we can rely on you.
kurthy wrote:But I actually understand the economics of the situation. Both factions will be bought by more well-to-do families because they can afford more than one and don't want to buy the same figure. But if you can only buy one for your kid, are you going to buy a good guy or a bad guy? The kid is probably going to want the good guy first and foremost (please don't forget that low income families far outnumber middle and upper class families). Hence, they will sell more Optimus Primes and Bumblebees than Megatrons and Starscreams. Basically, the assumption is that most families will buy a OP or BB, some families will buy a smattering, and very few families will only buy a Megatron/SS.
And that's great logic for the lower end of the spectrum. But when it comes to MPs, they are cost prohibitive from the beginning and not targeted at families, so when it comes to that, GIVE ME MY QUEEN AND LET THE REST BURN!![]()
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Hellscream9999 wrote:Why not only did BW save the franchise, but it has a huge fan base behind it,
Prowl4 wrote:DecepticonFinishline wrote:
I like all the Beast Wars characters. However, I expected that they would only bother with the leaders and not make MP molds of the rest of the team (actually, as a cynic, I expected ONLY the Autobot Maximal leader and nothing else). But if they make a supporting character to add to the hero ranks and don't even make the leader of the Predacons at all, it feels like a massive middle finger. It's kind of akin to the way Pokemon treats Grass-types in relation to Fire- and Water-types.
A middle finger is harsh. This character eventually became leader of the maximals so I'm pretty happy with him. As I said it gives more time for takara to do a perfect dinobot, megatron etc. Dinobot is my favourite character but I'm just going to be patient because I don't want a sub par figure rushed out the door. I think this could be the start of a nice evolution from bw to tm to tm2 to beast machines. I'm happy with the choice.
Sabrblade wrote:Virtually everyone from Armada needs the MP treatment.
Hellscream9999 wrote:Burn wrote:So how about that possible MP Cheetor guys? Guys? Anyone?
Well, I honestly think that he'll suffer from compromises. I think it can be done, but it will be exceptionally difficult and probably require a lot of parts. I think an upscaling of him for Tigatron is possible, his added girth of being a tiger would no doubt ease the process. I'm not gonna hold my breath, but I do hope he looks glorious
Did you ever wonder why I excluded the likes of the much-liked Cybertron and Prime, or specifically noted that only "some" of BW seasons 2-3/Energon/Animated's casts need MPs rather than ALL of their casts? It is because that everyone I excluded from those listed above already has good quality show-accurate toys and don't need MP versions to give us those. My original point was that "the G1 cast, the Beast Wars season 1 cast, a small amount of the Beast Wars seasons 2-3 cast, the Beast Machines cast, the Armada cast, a small amount of the Energon cast, and the tiniest amount of the Animated cast" all need MPs more than anyone else because all of their original toys and their original characters models were the ones that were the least synchronized with each other in terms of both resembling one another and being able to do all of the same things as each other. THAT is why those specific casts need MPs. Not because of any kind of affection the fandom may or may not have towards those characters, but because of how the MP treatment could achieve and rectify what the original takes on these characters failed to accomplish. THAT was my original point, in no way tied to emotion or affection for the characters, but in every way tied to design aesthetics and visual appearances.Sabrblade wrote:The way I see it, the cartoon casts that need the MP treatment the most, in the order of which each cartoon was made, are the G1 cast, the Beast Wars season 1 cast, a small amount of the Beast Wars seasons 2-3 cast, the Beast Machines cast, the Armada cast, a small amount of the Energon cast, and the tiniest amount of the Animated cast.
With Generations, there's no guarantee they'd keep their original designs. That Armada Starscream got to keep his (almost) completely intact is nothing short of a miracle. With the MP treatment, however, the original design guaranteed to be kept since the MP line is beholden to each character's original looks (minus Wheeljack's coloration).Hellscream9999 wrote:Sabrblade wrote:Virtually everyone from Armada needs the MP treatment. Their original toys were horribly compromised by the Mini-Con gimmick. Unicron and Tidal Wave are probably the only ones who don't need MPs (all Tidal Wave really needs is a pair of knees).
I'd argue that they need the 'Generations' update more than the MP treatment...
Cybertron Vector Prime most certainly does not need the MP treatment since his original toy was a fantastic representation of the character that matched up so well with his character model was an all around great figure, better than some of today's toys even.Zeedust wrote:Honestly, if they do Unicron Trilogy remakes in any line, I think Vector Prime should be at the top of the list. He's probably the one who hold the most significance in the greater Transformers multiverse, on both sides of the Pacific.
I could think of a few BW MP redecos/remolds if Takara would be willing to dip into Hasbro-based obscurity:Insurgent wrote:Ahem. More BW MP's have my vote. I'll get the entire cast. Yes I will. Doing Cheetor now makes sense. The engineering can be redone into Tigatron so there's an easy third figure. Because let's face it, none of the BW cast can really be repainted/retooled into someone else except Cheetor and Tarantulas. And Tarantulas is going to be so extreme a remould, they may as well make BA a new mould entirely, just borrow some of Tarantulas engineering.
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
Yeah, and with Dinobot having the most, he could end up being the "Seeker" of this line.Insurgent wrote:True. But I was thinking of show cast only. Guess there's quite a few if you go into the toys.
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
Insurgent wrote:>:oP MP Cheetor you say? Huh.
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OH HELL YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ahem. More BW MP's have my vote. I'll get the entire cast. Yes I will. Doing Cheetor now makes sense. The engineering can be redone into Tigatron so there's an easy third figure. Because let's face it, none of the BW cast can really be repainted/retooled into someone else except Cheetor and Tarantulas. And Tarantulas is going to be so extreme a remould, they may as well make BA a new mould entirely, just borrow some of Tarantulas engineering.
Oh happy days, I get more BW MP's. With Inferno getting announced, I was worried I was only going to be getting the one.
Sabrblade wrote:Yeah, and with Dinobot having the most, he could end up being the "Seeker" of this line.Insurgent wrote:True. But I was thinking of show cast only. Guess there's quite a few if you go into the toys.![]()
Zeedust wrote:kurthy wrote:But I actually understand the economics of the situation. Both factions will be bought by more well-to-do families because they can afford more than one and don't want to buy the same figure. But if you can only buy one for your kid, are you going to buy a good guy or a bad guy? The kid is probably going to want the good guy first and foremost (please don't forget that low income families far outnumber middle and upper class families). Hence, they will sell more Optimus Primes and Bumblebees than Megatrons and Starscreams. Basically, the assumption is that most families will buy a OP or BB, some families will buy a smattering, and very few families will only buy a Megatron/SS.
And that's great logic for the lower end of the spectrum. But when it comes to MPs, they are cost prohibitive from the beginning and not targeted at families, so when it comes to that, GIVE ME MY QUEEN AND LET THE REST BURN!![]()
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What about other "collector" stuff like Generations and Platinum?
kurthy wrote:Considering that the generations line doesn't cost that much more than the current RID and Rescue lines, I'm no longer listing it as a collector line. There's a $50 RID Bee and some of the Rescue line are in the $30-40 range. It's more of something adult fans buy their kids and themselves. Of course, there is the exception of titan class. The platinum line on the other hand, again, I'm not expecting anyone but the well-off to purchase. In fact, with the way they're doing it, I still don't understand why it exists at all. I don't even know why you brought up platinum.
Back on topic, I really hope they do a good job with Cheetor and don't compromise the mold for a gimmick or two like the generations mold eyes or Hot Rod to Rodimus Prime.
Zeedust wrote:kurthy wrote:Considering that the generations line doesn't cost that much more than the current RID and Rescue lines, I'm no longer listing it as a collector line. There's a $50 RID Bee and some of the Rescue line are in the $30-40 range. It's more of something adult fans buy their kids and themselves. Of course, there is the exception of titan class. The platinum line on the other hand, again, I'm not expecting anyone but the well-off to purchase. In fact, with the way they're doing it, I still don't understand why it exists at all. I don't even know why you brought up platinum.
Back on topic, I really hope they do a good job with Cheetor and don't compromise the mold for a gimmick or two like the generations mold eyes or Hot Rod to Rodimus Prime.
I was going by target demographic rather than price, and Platinum still exists, so apparently someone's buying it.
Burn wrote:So how about that possible MP Cheetor guys? Guys? Anyone?
Burn wrote:When I posted this...Burn wrote:So how about that possible MP Cheetor guys? Guys? Anyone?
...it was my subtle way of trying to get this topic back onto Cheetor.
Cheetor.
Not what figures you want from Energon or any other lines. They can have their own threads.
CHEETOR.
Is there any further explanation necessary?
kurthy wrote:Back on topic, I really hope they do a good job with Cheetor and don't compromise the mold for a gimmick or two like the generations mold eyes or Hot Rod to Rodimus Prime.
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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