The Energon Pub

[ThunderThruster]

I'm looking forward to Siege Magnus, I think his bot more looks spot on, and the RiD-esque alt mode makes a bit of change from the usual. As for the whole size debate, I always thought that CW Magnus was too large, unless you're aiming for the IDW aesthetic, which is why I don't own that figure.

I can live with the battle damage but would have preferred not to have it.

[Dr. Caelus]

Here's a super-anal complaint about the battle damage paint apps:

Transformers have repeatedly been shown to have the ability to change color when powered up or when scanning a particular altmode or when it's just convenient. When a Transformer well-and-truly dies, they turn matte gray, losing all of their color. Automotive paints are based on hydrocarbons wjhich would be sparing on a primaily metal planet.

Those points imply that, aside from some custom detailing akin to makeup applications, Transformers are not actually covered in 'paint' - their color comes from some sort of dynamic pigment in their equivalent of 'skin'.

That being the case, the notion that it could simply 'scuff off' to reveal silver is a *little* questionable.

Edit: I'd add that when Optimus gets the tar beaten out of him in the original movie, he evidences no such scuffing or chipping.

[AllNewSuperRobot]

How can SIEGE Magnus' altmode be considered a Con and not be "G1 Faithful" when Ultra Magnus never had a Cybertronian altmode in G1

[william-james88]

Those points imply that, aside from some custom detailing akin to makeup applications, Transformers are not actually covered in 'paint' - their color comes from some sort of dynamic pigment in their equivalent of 'skin'.

We know at least in the comics that they are covered in paint:

Ambulon is the ward manager stationed at Delphi. He's known to be easily offended, and his fellow Delphi medic First Aid notes that he can be "a real gearstick sometimes." The gaps in his uneven paintwork reveal evidence of an earlier, buried portion of his life. Hint: He used to be purple.

https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Ambulon

[ZeroWolf]

I can't believe we're having this much of an in depth conversation about battle damage in the fiction itself...That said I like the battle damage, these are beings of war, time they looked it.

[AllNewSuperRobot]

A lot of people seem to have taken a liking to the IDWverse more humanising elements, in this case the physiological ones IE Cybertronian equivalents of skin, blood etc

Which doesn't really mesh at all with virtually every other Transformers series.

[ZeroWolf]

Didn't Prime have them with metal skin? Same as the movies? I've sure there's been comments about paint work in various fiction, as recently as Cyberverse.

[william-james88]

A lot of people seem to have taken a liking to the IDWverse more humanising elements, in this case the physiological ones IE Cybertronian equivalents of skin, blood etc

Which doesn't really mesh at all with virtually every other Transformers series.

Its because its the most fleshed out we ever got. Like how transformers are created for instance.
Other series just ignored these details or skimmed over them so simply be them being more complete in IDW, and us fans being so obsessive about what we love, we do gravitate towards what is more complete to fill out the blanks of whatever came before.

[AllNewSuperRobot]

A lot of people seem to have taken a liking to the IDWverse more humanising elements, in this case the physiological ones IE Cybertronian equivalents of skin, blood etc

Which doesn't really mesh at all with virtually every other Transformers series.

Its because its the most fleshed out we ever got. Like how transformers are created for instance.
Other series just ignored these details or skimmed over them so simply be them being more complete in IDW, and us fans being so obsessive about what we love, we do gravitate towards what is more complete to fill out the blanks of whatever came before.

Yes but it is has ended now. You don't still refer to the concepts and characterisation of the Unicron Trilogy as canon, IDWverse is in the same boat.

Beast Wars gave Protoforms as the origin point for creation. However, that is the Descendants of Autobots and Decepticons IE. Future, future tech. Although that and Sparks has been retroactively applied to everything else.

[AllNewSuperRobot]

Didn't Prime have them with metal skin? Same as the movies? I've sure there's been comments about paint work in various fiction, as recently as Cyberverse.

The Movies are their own thing. Some characters paintwork makes sense, IE Earth based altmodes, others it doesn't EG Those created by Unicron, and the Planet Bot himself.

[Sabrblade]

A lot of people seem to have taken a liking to the IDWverse more humanising elements, in this case the physiological ones IE Cybertronian equivalents of skin, blood etc

Which doesn't really mesh at all with virtually every other Transformers series.

Its because its the most fleshed out we ever got. Like how transformers are created for instance.
Other series just ignored these details or skimmed over them so simply be them being more complete in IDW, and us fans being so obsessive about what we love, we do gravitate towards what is more complete to fill out the blanks of whatever came before.

Yes but it is has ended now. You don't still refer to the concepts and characterisation of the Unicron Trilogy as canon, IDWverse is in the same boat.

Beast Wars gave Protoforms as the origin point for creation. However, that is the Descendants of Autobots and Decepticons IE. Future, future tech. Although that and Sparks has been retroactively applied to everything else.

By that logic, we shouldn't be considering anything from the G1 cartoon as canon anymore either. It's been done and dead for 30 years.

But just throw this out there, G1 Ironhide had skeletal elements (and his name, lol) inside his arm in the cartoon:

[AllNewSuperRobot]

By that logic, we shouldn't be considering anything from the G1 cartoon as canon anymore either. It's been done and dead for 30 years.

No, we shouldn't. G1 is as dead as the rest of the 80's. People need to let it go and embrace the fluid and progressive nature of canon within a long term series. Batman is no longer defined by his 30's characterisation after all.

But just throw this out there, G1 Ironhide had skeletal elements (and his name, lol) inside his arm in the cartoon:

Looks more like components and circuitry to me (and a silly name tag) standard for "future tech" as envisioned in an 80's cartoon. Can you imagine how explicit The Movie final battle between Prime and Megatron would have been with "Blood" and "Skin"

[Dr. Caelus]

Those points imply that, aside from some custom detailing akin to makeup applications, Transformers are not actually covered in 'paint' - their color comes from some sort of dynamic pigment in their equivalent of 'skin'.

We know at least in the comics that they are covered in paint:

Ambulon is the ward manager stationed at Delphi. He's known to be easily offended, and his fellow Delphi medic First Aid notes that he can be "a real gearstick sometimes." The gaps in his uneven paintwork reveal evidence of an earlier, buried portion of his life. Hint: He used to be purple.

https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Ambulon

But if the color is only paint, why wouldn't they have stripped the purple off Ambulon before repainting him? Sure sounds like his 'skin' is still purple, but he has6 the Cybertronian equivalent of a spray on tan.

Similar case: IDW Acidstorm playing Starscream.

[Dr. Caelus]

A lot of people seem to have taken a liking to the IDWverse more humanising elements, in this case the physiological ones IE Cybertronian equivalents of skin, blood etc

Which doesn't really mesh at all with virtually every other Transformers series.

The late G1/G2 Marvel comics depict Cybertronians as extremely biomechanical - they show equivalents of skin, skeletons, and arteries regularly.

Some equivalent to blood is present in just about everything, including the original movie. The original movie also shows the cybertronian equivalents of organs like eyeballs.

The color changing skin is evident in the 2001 R.I.D. series (which also kept Beast Wars 'protoform' concept), the Unicron Trilogy, the Bay movies, and the newer R.I.D. series.

[william-james88]

Batman is no longer defined by his 30's characterisation after all.

That could not be more false




Everything above still rings true to what is Batman today:

[o.supreme]

By that logic, we shouldn't be considering anything from the G1 cartoon as canon anymore either. It's been done and dead for 30 years.

No, we shouldn't. G1 is as dead as the rest of the 80's. People need to let it go and embrace the fluid and progressive nature of canon within a long term series. Batman is no longer defined by his 30's characterization after all.

OK...Go tell a bunch of OS Star Trek fans to "Let it Go" after almost 60 years...yeah that's not happening. We see how well JJ's "reinterpretation" of the original series, and Discovery are going.

I'm all for new things, but they have to be of exceptional quality. I loved Transformers Prime. The first really good series I could get into since BW really... But now, I'd go back and watch original series Transformers episodes on repeat constantly before I'll embrace Cyberverse. It just isn't my type of thing.

[ZeldaTheSwordsman]

I think the G1 cartoon universe is still viable to apply when it comes to new toys of the G1 characters Yes, it's an old canon, but it's one of the foremost canons of those characters.

Here's a super-anal complaint about the battle damage paint apps:

Transformers have repeatedly been shown to have the ability to change color when powered up or when scanning a particular altmode or when it's just convenient.

Depending on the series. And the powerup color-change thing could be taken as the powerup warping the pigments.

When a Transformer well-and-truly dies, they turn matte gray, losing all of their color.

Not consistently, even within the G1 cartoon. It basically only happened to Optimus in the movie. Arguably Starscream too, but given the way he crumbles you could just as easily argue that he turns black and gray on account of being completely and totally charred by Galvatron's cannon blast. But Brawn, Ironhide, Wheeljack, Windcharger, etc... They're not turned gray.
Turning gray upon true death was a convention not used again until Animated (which was also the first continuity where it became consistent). The Unicron Trilogy didn't use it, the movieverse doesn't use it...

Automotive paints are based on hydrocarbons wjhich would be sparing on a primaily metal planet.

Why presume it's automotive paint? And we know that the primarily metal planet once had freakin' rivers of water running across it before the war destroyed them, so just because it's made of metal doesn't necessarily mean it's limited to what you'd normally expect from such a planet.

Those points imply that, aside from some custom detailing akin to makeup applications, Transformers are not actually covered in 'paint' - their color comes from some sort of dynamic pigment in their equivalent of 'skin'.

Possibly, although again it depends on the series. We know it's paint in the movieverse, it behaves like it with chipping and everything. And persisting after death. In Animated where "electronic paintjobs" are a thing, it's possible that everyone's color is in fact an electronic paintjob and thus they turn gray on death because of the "paint" losing power.
Regarding G1 (and I could be wrong about this, I'm not 100% sure), I seem to recall lines of dialogue that refer to the characters as being painted.

That being the case, the notion that it could simply 'scuff off' to reveal silver is a *little* questionable.

Perhaps, but the people in charge of visual design are probably not as anal as you

Edit: I'd add that when Optimus gets the tar beaten out of him in the original movie, he evidences no such scuffing or chipping.

True enough. Although even in the movie G1's animation had limits.

[RodimusConvoy13]

I think the G1 cartoon universe is still viable to apply when it comes to new toys of the G1 characters Yes, it's an old canon, but it's one of the foremost canons of those characters.

Here's a super-anal complaint about the battle damage paint apps:

Transformers have repeatedly been shown to have the ability to change color when powered up or when scanning a particular altmode or when it's just convenient.

Depending on the series. And the powerup color-change thing could be taken as the powerup warping the pigments.

When a Transformer well-and-truly dies, they turn matte gray, losing all of their color.

Not consistently, even within the G1 cartoon. It basically only happened to Optimus in the movie. Arguably Starscream too, but given the way he crumbles you could just as easily argue that he turns black and gray on account of being completely and totally charred by Galvatron's cannon blast. But Brawn, Ironhide, Wheeljack, Windcharger, etc... They're not turned gray.
Turning gray upon true death was a convention not used again until Animated (which was also the first continuity where it became consistent). The Unicron Trilogy didn't use it, the movieverse doesn't use it...

Prowl did turn gray.

[ZeldaTheSwordsman]

No he didn't. There is no change in his coloration there aside from a minor impact by the ambient lighting.

[Sabrblade]

But Brawn, Ironhide, Wheeljack, Windcharger, etc... They're not turned gray.

Brawn and Ironhide weren't visible onscreen to argue either way when they died, though Prowl and Ratchet did have their colors dull out.

Turning gray upon true death was a convention not used again until Animated (which was also the first continuity where it became consistent). The Unicron Trilogy didn't use it, the movieverse doesn't use it...

Armada did have Optimus turn solid pale gray when he died, right before his body disintegrated.

[ZeldaTheSwordsman]

But Brawn, Ironhide, Wheeljack, Windcharger, etc... They're not turned gray.

Brawn and Ironhide weren't visible onscreen to argue either way when they died, though Prowl and Ratchet did have their colors dull out.

Not really? They never looked dulled out to me and they certainly didn't turn all-over uniform dead gray like Optimus. And Wheeljack and Windcharger absolutely didn't gray out.

Turning gray upon true death was a convention not used again until Animated (which was also the first continuity where it became consistent). The Unicron Trilogy didn't use it, the movieverse doesn't use it...

Armada did have Optimus turn solid pale gray when he died, right before his body disintegrated.

That's true. But on the other hand, much like G1 Starscream he did kinda get fried by an enormous Unicronian cannon blast. And outright absorbed its energies with his body to keep them from getting past.

[RodimusConvoy13]

Shockwave's full on starship mode is awesome. It totally seems like something that's as big or bigger than a Star Destroyer. It also reminds me of the Galra ships from the new Voltron series. I can see it firing a hugely powerful beam weapon out the front like those ships do.

Overall Shockwave is awesome.

[starrhero]

By that logic, we shouldn't be considering anything from the G1 cartoon as canon anymore either. It's been done and dead for 30 years.

No, we shouldn't. G1 is as dead as the rest of the 80's. People need to let it go and embrace the fluid and progressive nature of canon within a long term series. Batman is no longer defined by his 30's characterization after all.

OK...Go tell a bunch of OS Star Trek fans to "Let it Go" after almost 60 years...yeah that's not happening. We see how well JJ's "reinterpretation" of the original series, and Discovery are going.

I'm all for new things, but they have to be of exceptional quality. I loved Transformers Prime. The first really good series I could get into since BW really... But now, I'd go back and watch original series Transformers episodes on repeat constantly before I'll embrace Cyberverse. It just isn't my type of thing.

I feel comparing Transformers & Star Trek is rather unfair due to how both treat continuity. After G1 & BW/BM, we had begun a new series with a new continuity. RiD '01 was entirely seperate from G1. (Internationally, that is. Japan decided to clump it with G1.) Then came The Unicron Trilogy, then the movieverse, then Animated, & so on. Meanwhile, Star Trek had not changed it's continuity in the 40+ years it had existed. That was until the J.J. films. Even then, the J.J. films were the equivalent to that of the Animated continuity. The same characters we've already seen going on new adventures as rookies instead of experienced fighters.

Star Trek had been restrained from breaking continuity, while Transformers thrived on new continuities. However, even with these restraints,the Star Trek franchise & universe still grew & grew. Adding new concepts, new ideas, & new stories in the same universe. Transformers added these concepts, but they did it through new continuities. And Star Trek now is trying to branch out with their universe, which is admirable. Granted, Discovery was NOT the way to go. As a trekkie for as long as I can remember, I hate Discovery with all my heart.

But focusing on Transformers now, there isn't a definitive version of each character. While some might think G1 cartoon Prime is clearly the definitive Prime, others would argue it's Animated Prime, or Aligned Prime. While I don't think we should let the past die, I do think we need to continue as much as we can, even if it means distancing ourselves & the franchise from its G1 roots.

Also, as a side note, the greying out of transformers was not a thing until AFTER Optimus' death in the '86 film. No other character in the G1 series had turned grey at their death. Continuities after G1 would add the whole greying out from death.

Man... the forums have been caught up in a lot of debate recently. Let's try & focus on the line. I finally got Skytreads and Cog. They're pretty great.

[o.supreme]

But focusing on Transformers now, there isn't a definitive version of each character. While some might think G1 cartoon Prime is clearly the definitive Prime, others would argue it's Animated Prime, or Aligned Prime. While I don't think we should let the past die, I do think we need to continue as much as we can, even if it means distancing ourselves & the franchise from its G1 roots.

I agree with some points you made, however I do disagree, as there definitely IS a definitive version of each character, and it isn't always the original version. Hot Shot, for Instance, started off as a fairly obscure character in RiD, but is defined by his persona in the Unicron Trilogy. Same for Bulkhead. The Energon Version is easily forgotten, while the TFA version, later reinforced by Prime is now what most people think of when they think of Bulkhead.

While some fans of younger age may identify more with Armada Prime, or TFA Prime, even THEY have to acknowledge that the definitive version is the Original Optimus Prime from the original series. That doesn't mean they have to like him the best, it's just a simple matter-of-fact. The Optimus Prime that was inducted into the TF Hall of Fame didn't represent every version of that character.

In my every day postings, if I simply write "Optimus Prime" fans should know who I am talking about, without having to state *Original* or even the awful term G1 *shudders* but if I insert the additional description... Armada Prime, or Animated Prime... that makes a huge difference, and changes completely, and specifies who I am talking about.

[william-james88]

Just an FYI, while fans may not believe it, Peter Cullen has stated that Optimus is the same charater in every iteration he voices. It doesnt mean the same continuity, of course, it just means that its the same character, with same values, wisdom, age (confirmed by Cullen), courage ect.