What Might Have Been - Beast Wars Discussion

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Re: What Might Have Been - Beast Wars Discussion

Postby sto_vo_kor_2000 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:52 pm

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AllNewSuperRobot wrote:
sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
AllNewSuperRobot wrote:Thanks!
It did feature in the instructions. But it's never been used, seen or acknowledged outside of them. Aside from the obvious question: "why would a Flier need a car mode?"

Because it’s cool

Serious answer there could be some cabins or on underground ruins that a flyer just can’t get into


The problem is the show didn't even hint that he had an alternate mode to the Dragon. I mean they at least showed his TM "roller skates" once or twice.
Yeah well that last season was pretty rushed and also we don’t always get a chance to see everything these characters can do

Look at G1 preceptor he had a third mode, so did the five-member combiner leaders


And thanks for explaining that other thing
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Re: What Might Have Been - Beast Wars Discussion

Postby sto_vo_kor_2000 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:54 pm

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Rodimus Prime wrote:Dragons are not real.
Oh right , but the transformers are?

This is a fictional universe buddy and of the riders wanted to say dragons were real they could


Oh yeah I forgot they were dragons in at least two episodes of the G1 cartoon
Predaprince wrote:I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 who is so energetic about improving others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe
Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds

T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach

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Re: What Might Have Been - Beast Wars Discussion

Postby AllNewSuperRobot » Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:54 pm

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Look at G1 preceptor he had a third mode, so did the five-member combiner leaders
And thanks for explaining that other thing



I was shown an episode of Sunbow Season 2, wherein Perceptor is "driving" alongside Prime :shock: . Was that the third mode?
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Re: What Might Have Been - Beast Wars Discussion

Postby sto_vo_kor_2000 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:55 pm

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AllNewSuperRobot wrote:
Rodimus Prime wrote:Dragons are not real.



:lol: I thought the same but I was just gonna let that slide :lol:
As I pointed out it’s a fictional universe what’s real and it is not is up to the writer say and they were dragons in the G1 cartoon
Last edited by sto_vo_kor_2000 on Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Predaprince wrote:I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 who is so energetic about improving others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe
Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds

T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach

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Re: What Might Have Been - Beast Wars Discussion

Postby sto_vo_kor_2000 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:56 pm

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ZeroWolf wrote:
sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
ZeroWolf wrote:Exactly, it's power creep gone wrong

What

I'm finding it hard to explain, but basically the writers put too big a threat in the way and had to deal with it in ways that weren't satisfactory

Gotcha
Predaprince wrote:I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 who is so energetic about improving others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe
Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds

T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach

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Re: What Might Have Been - Beast Wars Discussion

Postby AllNewSuperRobot » Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:58 pm

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
AllNewSuperRobot wrote:
Rodimus Prime wrote:Dragons are not real.



:lol: I thought the same but I was just gonna let that slide :lol:
As I pointed out it’s a fictional universe what’s real and it is what the writer say and they were dragons in the G1 cartoon


That's why I didn't mention it. Beast Wars was sci-fantasy after all.
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Re: What Might Have Been - Beast Wars Discussion

Postby ZeroWolf » Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:36 pm

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Basically more star wars than star trek.
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Re: What Might Have Been - Beast Wars Discussion

Postby sto_vo_kor_2000 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:40 pm

Motto: "Today is a good day to die......but the day is not yet over!"
AllNewSuperRobot wrote:
sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Look at G1 preceptor he had a third mode, so did the five-member combiner leaders
And thanks for explaining that other thing



I was shown an episode of Sunbow Season 2, wherein Perceptor is "driving" alongside Prime :shock: . Was that the third mode?

It was meant to be some form of a tank the cartoon would just make the microscope mode roll
Predaprince wrote:I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 who is so energetic about improving others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe
Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds

T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach

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Re: What Might Have Been - Beast Wars Discussion

Postby Rodimus Prime » Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:41 pm

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Dragons are still not real. :-D
Burn wrote:Alpha Bravo...He's a helicopter in a team of jets. That's just dumb.
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Re: What Might Have Been - Beast Wars Discussion

Postby sto_vo_kor_2000 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:31 am

Motto: "Today is a good day to die......but the day is not yet over!"
Rodimus Prime wrote:Dragons are still not real. :-D
OK buddy thanks for letting us know
:HEADHURTS:
Predaprince wrote:I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 who is so energetic about improving others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe
Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds

T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach

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Re: What Might Have Been - Beast Wars Discussion

Postby ZeroWolf » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:47 am

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It's funny though that dragons take different shapes and sizes depending on where you are in the world (the western generalised idea of a dragon vs the eastern generalised idea) and what they stand for.
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Re: What Might Have Been - Beast Wars Discussion

Postby AllNewSuperRobot » Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:20 am

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
AllNewSuperRobot wrote:
sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Look at G1 preceptor he had a third mode, so did the five-member combiner leaders
And thanks for explaining that other thing



I was shown an episode of Sunbow Season 2, wherein Perceptor is "driving" alongside Prime :shock: . Was that the third mode?

It was meant to be some form of a tank the cartoon would just make the microscope mode roll


It was probably the most ridiculous thing I've seen in Transformers (of that era).

ZeroWolf wrote:It's funny though that dragons take different shapes and sizes depending on where you are in the world (the western generalised idea of a dragon vs the eastern generalised idea) and what they stand for.



The Eastern Dragon wouldn't have made a very good toy though (much like the Snake design in general). Also the Eastern market wouldn't have liked "their" dragon being the design used for a villain.
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Re: What Might Have Been - Beast Wars Discussion

Postby ZeroWolf » Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:53 am

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But how much input did takara get with the input of the series? Also they would of had their kind of dragon be a good guy though that makes me wonder what they thought of Serpenterra from power rangers, I got my details right, he was only in the Americanised version of the show and not in the super sentai original.
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Re: What Might Have Been - Beast Wars Discussion

Postby AllNewSuperRobot » Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:02 am

ZeroWolf wrote:But how much input did takara get with the input of the series? Also they would of had their kind of dragon be a good guy though that makes me wonder what they thought of Serpenterra from power rangers, I got my details right, he was only in the Americanised version of the show and not in the super sentai original.


Considering how Beast Wars Season One was dubbed in Japan and the overall tone of Second and Neo, I don't think Takara had barely any input at all.

I've made no secret that I don't like the Dragon design for TM 2 Megatron. From BW to BM, I still think Megatron's best design was his TM model.

That said, I did consider an alternate to the Dragon I think would have worked better.

1) Scrap Dinobot II. This would maintain the integrity of "Code of Hero". As he wasn't anything to write home about anyway, he could easily have been replaced with TM2 Scarem, Scourge etc.

2) Use the "Skeletal" design for Dinobot II on Megatron. He was dropped in Magma. Instead of pulling a random Dragon design out of nowhere, you would have had a colossal T-Rex "skeleton" rise up. With this design, the new predominant white colour scheme could likewise give visual cues to the Original Megatron.
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Re: What Might Have Been - Beast Wars Discussion

Postby Sabrblade » Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:44 am

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AllNewSuperRobot wrote:The Eastern Dragon wouldn't have made a very good toy though (much like the Snake design in general). Also the Eastern market wouldn't have liked "their" dragon being the design used for a villain.
Sounds to me like you've never seen Gigano Dragon from DinoZaurs (a Japanese anime, known as Dinozone in Japan, made for Bandai as their own attempt to compete with Hasbro and Takara's Beast Era of Transformers):

https://youtu.be/DMCej_fZC0E?t=290

ZeroWolf wrote:But how much input did takara get with the input of the series? Also they would of had their kind of dragon be a good guy though that makes me wonder what they thought of Serpenterra from power rangers, I got my details right, he was only in the Americanised version of the show and not in the super sentai original.
Serpentera did have Super Sentai counterpart. All of its MMPR footage was taken from Dairanger footage of Daijinryuu, a neutrally-aligned but singleminded cosmic being.
Last edited by Sabrblade on Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What Might Have Been - Beast Wars Discussion

Postby AllNewSuperRobot » Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:50 am

Sabrblade wrote:
AllNewSuperRobot wrote:The Eastern Dragon wouldn't have made a very good toy though (much like the Snake design in general). Also the Eastern market wouldn't have liked "their" dragon being the design used for a villain.
Sounds to me like you've never seen Gigano Dragon from DinoZaurs (a Japanese anime, known as Dinozone in Japan, made for Bandai as their own attempt to compete with Hasbro and Takara's Beast Era of Transformers):

https://youtu.be/c6gFhwX9JLM?t=424




:shock: That looked horrendous. On par with Unicron Trilogy CG... I like how even there, they ignored how a snake body-type could feasibly bulk out into a robot, so they just "squeezed" him together. :lol:
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Re: What Might Have Been - Beast Wars Discussion

Postby Sabrblade » Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:02 am

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AllNewSuperRobot wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
AllNewSuperRobot wrote:The Eastern Dragon wouldn't have made a very good toy though (much like the Snake design in general). Also the Eastern market wouldn't have liked "their" dragon being the design used for a villain.
Sounds to me like you've never seen Gigano Dragon from DinoZaurs (a Japanese anime, known as Dinozone in Japan, made for Bandai as their own attempt to compete with Hasbro and Takara's Beast Era of Transformers):

https://youtu.be/c6gFhwX9JLM?t=424




:shock: That looked horrendous. On par with Unicron Trilogy CG... I like how even there, they ignored how a snake body-type could feasibly bulk out into a robot, so they just "squeezed" him together. :lol:
I edited my post with a different clip.

It's actually a number of years older than the Unicron Trilogy, back when Japan was still learning how to animate with CGI. Still, at least it used full CGI instead of that flat-looking, emotionless, cel-shaded CGI that Energon and Cybertron used. DinoZaurs could at least give its CG characters facial expressions in up close shots when it needed to, so credit where credit is due.

Whereas the CGI of Energon and Cybertron was pretty much limited to just... "Uhh":

Image
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Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: What Might Have Been - Beast Wars Discussion

Postby AllNewSuperRobot » Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:08 am

:lol: The infamous "O" face of the Unicron Trilogy... #-o

In that respect, I think more of that clip and a lot less of Unicron Trilogy.
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Re: What Might Have Been - Beast Wars Discussion

Postby Sabrblade » Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:19 am

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AllNewSuperRobot wrote::lol: The infamous "O" face of the Unicron Trilogy... #-o

In that respect, I think more of that clip and a lot less of Unicron Trilogy.
Yeah, and the other clip has a better fight scene, too.

Given the time DinoZaurs came out and the level of CG technology Japan had to work with at the time, I'd say they did a pretty serviceable job overall. Having watched all 26 episodes myself, I rank its CGI somewhere above that of Voltron: The Third Dimension and either right below or right around Season 1 of ReBoot. After all, it was animated by Sunrise, one of Japan's largest and best known animation studios, made famous for the Gundam franchise and much more.

Whereas Energon and Cybertron, having come out four and five years later, have no excuse. Though, at least Cybertron's CGI was a big step up from Energon's, being less cel-shaded, more detailed overall (e.g. - able to have separate battle-damaged CGI models like Beast Wars had), and having far less technical deficiencies than the appallingly bad CGI of Energon.
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Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: What Might Have Been - Beast Wars Discussion

Postby AllNewSuperRobot » Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:26 am

I vaguely recall a Zoids cartoon around the time of Armada that had a similar level of CG also. In hindsight it really shows how advanced Mainframe was with their understanding of CG.

I often joked with friends that the animation in the PS2 Transformers game was better than the show it was based on :lol:
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Re: What Might Have Been - Beast Wars Discussion

Postby Sabrblade » Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:33 am

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AllNewSuperRobot wrote:I vaguely recall a Zoids cartoon around the time of Armada that had a similar level of CG also.
Yeah, the various Zoids anime were also done by studios that had a better grasp on CG animation. Not as advanced as American CGI, but good enough for what they needed.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:In hindsight it really shows how advanced Mainframe was with their understanding of CG.
Yeah, at the time, only Pixar was their better... Then came Dreamworks, Blue Sky, and everyone else who wanted to get in on the CG animation scene. Suddenly, it wasn't as special anymore. :(

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:I often joked with friends that the animation in the PS2 Transformers game was better than the show it was based on :lol:
Well... Ya weren't wrong. ;)
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Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: What Might Have Been - Beast Wars Discussion

Postby AllNewSuperRobot » Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:13 am

Speaking of games, lets segue and talk about the Beast Wars video games. Funnily enough another part of the Beast Era we can only lament on What might have been?

Image Image
Image


Which have you played? Did you enjoy any of them? Would you welcome a new game by a modern Dev ala High Moon, Atari Melbourne, Platinum Games etc?
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Re: What Might Have Been - Beast Wars Discussion

Postby ZeroWolf » Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:43 am

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I didn't play any of them sadly, but wasn't the beast wars n64 game slightly different to the psone version?

Of course I would welcome any new one, as long as they did good by it and it was untouched by microtransactions
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Re: What Might Have Been - Beast Wars Discussion

Postby Sabrblade » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:09 am

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I never got to play any of them myself. I did always want to play the N64 game, but I never got the chance to rent it from the local Blockbuster when I got to wanting to play it (the N64 game was exclusive to Blockbuster). I didn't have any non-Nintendo systems back then either, so none of the other games were an option.

And I didn't know about the Beast Wars Second GBC game so it wasn't an option for me back then.

BUT, I have watched Let's Play walkthroughs on YouTube of both the Season 1 PC/PS1 game and the Transmetals PS1 game.

The Season 1 PC/PS1 looks and sounds terrible, which is a shame since it also looks like there was a half-decent game buried beneath all the mediocrity that knocked it down several pegs. And at least the game got its own comic. A weird comic, but a comic nonetheless.

The Transmetals PS1 hews closer to the show, by having cutscenes with models actually based on those of the show, along with Rhinox and Waspinator in new models based on their Transmetals toys, and by actually having most of the cartoon's voice cast.

But, the game also suffers from a lot of the same dubbing problems that Armada and Energon suffered. I could tell that this game was made by the Japanese rather than written by Forward and DiTillio. Characters call out attack names or phrases that were more akin to those that they used in the Japanese dub of the cartoon. For instance, Cheetor yells "Fire!" for every shot he fires, like how he would yell "Utsumashi!"--the Japanese word for "Fire!" or "Shoot!"--for every normal shot he fired in the Japanese dub of the show; and he would yells "Double Arm Blast!" when shooting from his two cheetah head hands together, which is like how he would yell "Ryōte Utsumashi!" ("Double Hand Fire!") when doing the same in the show.

Other examples were Tarantulas doing a ninja technique saying "Let's see what makes you tick!", Optimus firing his two back guns yelling "Prime Guns, FIRE!", Megatron leaping into the air to fire his tail gun yelling "All available power to primary weapon!" (obviously lifted from his line in "The Agenda (Part III)"), Silverbolt leaping into the air to fire a blast from his torso crystal while yelling "With all my Spark's MIGHT!", and unlockable character Windrazor doing the same but instead yelling "Spark Extinguisher!" as the attack's name.

And a lot of the cutscene dialogue has that same clunky feeling as the dialogue of Armada/Energon, with a lot of filler words like "Right!", "Okay!", "Let's do it!", etc. inserted to fit the Japanese lip flaps. And the attempt to overlay the American personalities of the characters onto the animation that drew more from their Japanese personalities made the dialogue feel even more jarring. Like, Rattrap in the Japanese version is more cowardly and silly compared to his more bold, wise-cracking Western personality, so the scenes of him panicking at the base were attempted to be changed to him complaining instead, but the animation still betrayed that attempt. And, Cheetor was less childlike in the Japanese version, since Rattrap was instead made into the audience-relatable character while Cheetor was more like a cool big brother type in the Japanese dub, so the English game's attempt to make him seem more like his younger, happy-go-lucky Western self was a bit awkward when the animation instead makes him come across as a cool guy itchin' to defend the base.

Though, I do like how the game's opening is well synchronized to the first Japanese Beast Wars Metals opening "Tamashī no Evolution". It's just too bad that the American version instead just replaced the song with generic rock music.
Last edited by Sabrblade on Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: What Might Have Been - Beast Wars Discussion

Postby AllNewSuperRobot » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:42 am

I have only played the Season 1 PSOne game. I hear that the GBC game is horrendous and to be avoided. Which given its Chibi nature, I probably would have at the time, even if I had ever seen it.

Your assessment of the game, just from watching it, isn't wrong.

The Intro

For any that haven't seen it, please click above for the games intro... The VO for this game has to be heard to be believed, especially Rhinox #-o

When I played it, it has the same difficulty curve as the PS2 "Armada" game IE It's hard and you need to Git Gud fast. Yet I too felt, if it was properly finished, there was a good game underneath the poor exterior. I even took some of it's extended lore to heart with my own work.
As with any game with a large roster, some of them will never be used. Maximals, you use Primal or Rhinox. Predacons, you use Megatron or Inferno. Although it has been many years since I've touched the game I remember Scorponok and Rattrap should be avoided at all costs. Ironic, given that Rattrap is an unlockable character (in-game lore: Rattrap came after Airazor and Inferno :lol: ).
A shame that no other Transformers game I've played has given you the immediate option of Factions from the outset. The rescue missions were an interesting idea also. When a character died, which happened a lot, finish the level with someone else and your respective Faction Fliers had an on-rails arcade shooter mission to free them. Which opened up the roster to Waspinator, Terrorsaur and Airazor. Although they didn't have Beast Modes.

Most of the game was bad however, but it did have some good ideas.
As for the Transmetals game, I never heard of it til way after the N64 era. I don't even think it was released here in the UK and if it was, it had zero fanfare.
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Transformers Podcast: Twincast / Podcast #213 - How to Say Expensive and Mean It
Twincast / Podcast #213:
"How to Say Expensive and Mean It"
MP3 · iTunes · RSS · View · Discuss · Ask
Posted: Sunday, December 9th, 2018

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