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Back in the 1980s or TODAY?

Or in between?

You tell me.=)

Hot_Rod wrote:Definately in the '80s. I remember the stores I went to used to have the ENTIRE ROW stacked from top to bottom all the way to the end of the row on BOTH SIDES with Transformers figures. It was like you stepped into the isle and above the mountaintops of fresh Transformers Boxes, you could hear the Angel Chior singing. It was great!

Now you're just lucky if they have more than a few pegs or 1 shelf in a small 2 foot section of the toys/boys department. If money tells the story, than what the retailers have done then and now has to give you your answer.

Especially when you take into account that most of us are here today thanks to The original Transoformers and it's the only reason it still exists. Alot of us pushed for it to return all through out the '90s. I remember constantly
mailing Hasbro to bring them back or to put the original show back on TV or release all the episodes. Heck, even as a immature little kid I actually prayed for it to return. And it did!

But every where you went in school or in the store or in public people were wearing Transformers Merchandise. There's not very much of that today. Not as much merchandise being sold as widespread or publicly displayed by kids. Heck most of the stuff you do see are being worn by adults. I've seen insignia's on cars with adults only in them and T-shirts worn by adults by never seen any kids these days with a Transformers memorbelia/merchandise being displayed in public. Kids today don't seem like Transformers as much any more. I seen one poster say his nephew told him that "Transformers were gay". Kids seem more into the Card Trading Pokemon and Yu-gui-Oh type stuff and all the anime now a days. And let's not forget about all the hi tech video games that is out there now that wasn't out back when Transformers was most popular. Toys were more relavent in the '80s and video games didn't have as strong of a grip on a kids life and what they do for entertainment.

Transformers today doesn't have the same grip on society or the market like it did when it was brand new. It also just doesn't seem to have that same charm with the new incarnations to draw as large of a group as it did when we adult fans were young.

Evem if you talk to your average joe worker who never goes online or never touches an anime etc, and you ask them if they know about Transformers, you always get the answer like, "OH yeah! I remember them! I used to have the [Fill in the blank] one when I was a kid" or "I used to watch that after school alot!"

I know a guy who is a Automobile Body Shop manager. We got to talking about shows we used to like that aren't on any more and he Brought up Transformers. I was talking about Silver Spoons and out of the blue he goes, "you know a show I really liked to watch? Transformers. I couldn't watch them other shows but Transformers... that was a goooood show, even for a cartoon." He had no clue I was a fan and had no clue that other versions of Transformers exist today.

He is about 22-23 years old.

I agree. The 80s...by a country mile.

Although if the movie catches fire, it might be a renaissance or sorts.

I know I bought anything TF related after G1 just to keep it alive, and I was desperate for anything TF.

I bought more Beast Wars than you can imagine during this time. Even Tripredacus and the maximal combiner guy, whoever he was.

Yeah, I was one of Hasbro's desperate little b****es.

Hot_Rod wrote:

YouFearGalvatron wrote:Yeah, I was one of Hasbro's desperate little b****es.

Hehe, me too. Though I think alot of us involved in the fandom were. We have a passion for Transformers.

Though I wasn't too big on Beast Wars. Beast Wars for me was like a "Huh? This don't look like it has anything to do with Transformers" type feeling. I'm more of a vehicular guy myself and I rather anjoy all the touches that the original Transformers had to offer like the Classic Transforming sound, the dinstinctive voice effects, and all the combiner teams and such. I also prefered the Robotic beast modes like the Dinobots over the orgainic looking ones because after all, these are robots.

But Beast Wars did revive the Franchise going so for that I will always greatful. You can only imagine how excited I was to hear about G2 and then RiD and then Armada for the first time though. G2 was great but then it was like, "Wait a minute, didn't they already do all this? It's just the same stuff in different colors!" and RiD was cool until I got tired of the kiddy jokes in it. Same with Armada.



Anyway I did have one more thing I wanted to add to my previous post...

If you look at the home consol video games of today they are WAY more high tech then we have ever seen. So naturally a kid will spend more time with the video games having fun they they would with toys. When you look at When Transformers were popular in the 80s, they did not have to compete with video games like they do now. There was Atari and Nintendo, but those were low tech compared to what we got today. And Nintendo never really got popular until Transformers started to die down in around 1988. So that mean Atari was the only affordable video game system around during the G1 years, and that was just a blip on your TV screen bouncing back and forth. Back then the only way to play a real good video game was to go to the arcade. If you wanted a real good time with a real good video game you had to pop quarters in the machine. So toys at home were more popular and less expensive to entertain little Johnny.

It wasn't until 1988 that Nintendo really caught on and not suprisingly, that's also when Transformers started to fade away. It's also around the same time that Sega Genesis came out. So the popularity of home video game improvements most likely contributed to The Transformers downfall in the last couple years of the '80s. I know once I got a Nintendo, I stopped playing with my Transformers. My life was school, Nintendo, Baseball, and my dog.

So you have the rise of Nintendo and Sega simultaneously happening at the same time The Transformers were beginning to lose it's grip on the market. Cooincidence? I think not.

Cause and effect; Chain of events
All of the Chaos makes perfect sense.

Other factors could be Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles busting on the scene with close to 200 episodes and 3 movies. But more so that some of those kids who were fans of Transformers were getting older and more into sports at a time when Culture said it's NOT OK to act like a child or enjoy kid things for very long and to grow up or be ridiculed.

Absolutley.

I was trying to send a message to Hasbro with my massive beast Wars purchases to keep TFs alive, so I also tried very hard to enjoy them.

Most I hated. I was more of a NON-organic robot kind of guy as well.

I just ate up whatever they threw at me. I went for YEARS without TFs. I was starving at this point.

I don't think it can be really measured.

Both are very different eras. The 80's never had the technology these days. The 80's also never had 20+ years of history to reflect on, nor did it have the fanbase variety it has today.

The only reason 80's may seem popular is that those fans of the modern era are probably going through the stage of their lives when playing with toys is a taboo. Once they realise they don't need the acceptance of their peers they'll embrace the things they used to love all over again and there'll be a hoarde of modern day TF fans to join the old folk.

I'd definitely say the 80s, not in any sense of nostalgia or any judgment of which era is 'better', but in sheer numbers. TF absolutely caught fire in 84-85 - it was the Simpsons, Ninja Turtles, Power Rangers etc of its day. For that year or two, TF was *the* toy to have. The merchandising tie-ins were everywhere - probably to a greater extent than even the movie has demonstrated so far.

It'll be interesting to see whether the movie manages to reignite that widespread level of popularity, or if the non-toy merchandise will languish in bargain bins for years to come. Merchandising is a very different game these days than it was 20+ years ago.

I get the feelings Transformers are now FAR MORE popular than it used to be in the 1980s. Only that the fandom isn't as visible as it was back then. Nor does the fandom consist just of little boys like in the past; there are now teens, grown men, and women into Transformers as well as a new generation of kids being raised on G1 thanks to their parents who couldn't stop loving the Transformers!:)

I think the great TF fandom of today exists mostly on the Internet rather than in the public eye like in the past and that it's probably BIGGER than real life, too...there used to be mostly toys and stuff for kids (like cereal, books, and pull-up underpants) in the 1980s, but today, we have a WIDER variety of TF stuff, including pricey statuettes of our favorite characters, PVC models, DVDs, toy reissues, lovingly illustrated graphic novels, comic book reissues, illustrated albums of our favorite characters, snacks, chess set, Monopoly gameboard, bikes, posters, and even soft plushies that actually transform to boot! Don't forget about shoes, pens, and cell phones that transform, too. And how about all those TF cons around the world? Homemade TF costumes that actually transform? Hand-sewn TF dolls? TF fanart that range from chicken scratches to glorious oil paintings? There's even several TF forums out there, too!

Heh, it used to be a kiddish fad back in the old days, but today, it's a GREAT cult around the world! (I am really SO impressed by today's fandom, frank to say. )

Screambug wrote:I get the feelings Transformers are now FAR MORE popular than it used to be in the 1980s. Only that the fandom isn't as visible as it was back then. Nor does the fandom consist just of little boys like in the past; there are now teens, grown men, and women into Transformers as well as a new generation of kids being raised on G1 thanks to their parents who couldn't stop loving the Transformers!:)

I think the great TF fandom of today exists mostly on the Internet rather than in the public eye like in the past and that it's probably BIGGER than real life, too...there used to be mostly toys and stuff for kids (like cereal, books, and pull-up underpants) in the 1980s, but today, we have a WIDER variety of TF stuff, including pricey statuettes of our favorite characters, PVC models, DVDs, toy reissues, lovingly illustrated graphic novels, comic book reissues, illustrated albums of our favorite characters, snacks, chess set, Monopoly gameboard, bikes, posters, and even soft plushies that actually transform to boot! Don't forget about shoes, pens, and cell phones that transform, too. And how about all those TF cons around the world? Homemade TF costumes that actually transform? Hand-sewn TF dolls? TF fanart that range from chicken scratches to glorious oil paintings? There's even several TF forums out there, too!

Heh, it used to be a kiddish fad back in the old days, but today, it's a GREAT cult around the world! (I am really SO impressed by today's fandom, frank to say. )

For realsies! Just look at Star Trek. The very first show was low tech, only lasted a few years, and in a way was kinda campy. But it had a bunch of fans and these had conventions and Star Trek stuff and the fans kept it alive. The amount of fans in the later years was probably much larger then it had been in the begining. It was enough to spawn new shows and tons of new stuff, and we now havestuff that is kind of inspired from Star Trek, like cell phones. Transfomers is young compared to Trek, so it might not have fully "matured" yet. Star Trek has been around for at least 2 1/2 generations, while Transformers is still barely past the first, roughly. So Transformers will still be around for a while, as it has enough passionate fans to keep it going. So while it might seem that there were a lot of fans in the eighties, today there are a lot more serious fans then there were in the beginning. And serious fans keep stuff going.

Edit: I think as parents realise as too much video games, TV, and computers cause health problems and lack of imagination, they will either never get them or restrict their use. (I actually heard of some people starting to do this, they are not even the far out types, they just don't want the attendant health and behavior problems with these items)

Burn wrote:I don't think it can be really measured.

Both are very different eras. The 80's never had the technology these days. The 80's also never had 20+ years of history to reflect on, nor did it have the fanbase variety it has today.

The only reason 80's may seem popular is that those fans of the modern era are probably going through the stage of their lives when playing with toys is a taboo. Once they realise they don't need the acceptance of their peers they'll embrace the things they used to love all over again and there'll be a hoarde of modern day TF fans to join the old folk.

I think that is a part of it, but I also think Transformers was bigger in the 80's as there was much less direct competition. You had Transformers, He-man, and later on Thomas and TMNT, as the main toys, these days there are toys for everything ranging from cartoon series to movies.
Even kids entertainment groups have toys and goods out.

i_amtrunks wrote:

Burn wrote:I don't think it can be really measured.

Both are very different eras. The 80's never had the technology these days. The 80's also never had 20+ years of history to reflect on, nor did it have the fanbase variety it has today.

The only reason 80's may seem popular is that those fans of the modern era are probably going through the stage of their lives when playing with toys is a taboo. Once they realise they don't need the acceptance of their peers they'll embrace the things they used to love all over again and there'll be a hoarde of modern day TF fans to join the old folk.

I think that is a part of it, but I also think Transformers was bigger in the 80's as there was much less direct competition. You had Transformers, He-man, and later on Thomas and TMNT, as the main toys, these days there are toys for everything ranging from cartoon series to movies.
Even kids entertainment groups have toys and goods out.

I would agree, but I think the potency, that is, the concentration of fans were more, Lord help me, rabid back then.

Now, you have a lot more fans, yes, and a lot more gear, but there are, as a percentage, fewer rabid TF fans.

Unlike, Star Wars/Star Trek, which continue to convert new rabid fanboys almost semi-perpetually.

This is just what I see where I live.

All the fans I know are casual fans.

I consider myself a casual, yet passionate TF fan.

My world does not revolve around them. But do I love TFs?

Why F*** YEAH!

Anyway, it might be different where you are, but to everyone here, it is casual hobby. This is why I think it was bigger in the 80s.

I'm not sure about fandom being bigger now, but it's definately better for the reasons Screambug mentioned. Also, it's a different kind of fandom, kids playing with toys of their favourite TV show is a different league to adult colectors who've followed the franchise through various lines, cartoons and comics. Actually, I'm not sure if the term "fandom" as it's used today is really the right word for kids watching TV shows in the 80s, no matter how popular it was it didn't really have the same global community side as exists in fandoms today. Speaking of modern fandom we have better resources at our disposal now. Fandom's in general are better off because of the internet, without it we'd have nothing better than newsletters to spread news, and no way of intereacting with each other between 'cons (and no way of intereacting at all if you can't afford them). It's also a lot easier to bring in new people this way, before I discovered sites like Seibertron I honestly thought I was pretty much the only adult TF fan in the world.
In summary: bigger or not, I prefer modern fandom.

Although there is quite a lot of popularity for the Transformers right now w/the movie line & all, I'm gonna say back in the 80's, & I wasn't even born yet.

As I recall from my early childhood when Mighty Morphin Power Rangers was THE thing to have, I remember seeing all the isles just stacked w/Megazords, figures, weapons, & all that good stuff. And it really wasn't even toys. There were things that were made at the height of its popularity that will probably never be seen again today in the current line, such as birthday cake toppers, party supplies, toothbruches, chapstick, pogs (Remember Pogs?), trading cards, comics, a feature movie, etc, etc, the list goes on.

The point is, this was the same for Transformers at the height of its popularity. There were so many types of items that were made that companies feel are useless today & wouldn't serve a purpose. Floating soap dishes, Rock 'Em Sock E'm Robots, a calculator/watch, all this stuff was what sold & made Transformers great. Look at today. All there is is just the toys (For the most part) Rarely are there things that were made 20 some years ago that will make a comeback any time soon.

I agree w/just about everything you said. I remember back in '98 when Beast Wars ended & it would be a year before Beast Machines made its debut. I wasn't as big on TF's as I am now (I've learned a lot) & I thought they finished off Transformers w/BW. Then it was 1999. I was hooked again.

After BM ended, I was sad again. Then RID came along & reared its head. I was kind of shocked that they incorporated characters & factions I didn't know (At that point I didn't know G1 existed & that there were Autobots, Decepticons, or Optimus Prime). I turned back to Power Rangers (Which BTW had declined for me too, Time Force was terrible) I experienced a loss. Like I said before, they made the coolest stuff during the height of its popularity. I missed the comic books, the pogs, all the stuff that made it awesome.

That's when the latest TCG struck me: Yu-Gi-Oh! I, like so many others, got into it instantly. It was like Poke'mon all over again in the TCG stage. Got the games too. All this stuff directed my attention away from TF's & Power Rangers. All the competitors of major toy lines find a way to compete you see. It doesn't even have to be a toy line that competes. Look at the Poke'mon & Yu-Gi-Oh! lines. Purely a Trading Card frenzy. I mean, they each ahd their own kids show to go w/it to make it seem more enjoyable, but the booster packs are what makes the majot bucks.

Anyways, sorry for the rambling. It's not uncommon to run across kids who don't know who or what the Transformers are. I have friends in High School that don't know what the TF's are. The way I see it, they only remember Power Rangers. And why wouln't they? The TV series & Toy Line experienced immediate overnight success, just like TF's had in 1984. The thing is, BW hadn't started yet, & this was about the only action packed kids franchise that was was huge. They incorporated all the elements that I listed for both TF's & Power Rangers. There's too much to list, but I'll give it a try:

comic books, pogs, trading cards, a movie, cake toppers, chapstick, napkins, party favors & hats, cakes themselves, figures to go on the cake, soaps, mini PVCs, flashlights, stamps & inks, pens, pencils, erasers, sharpeners, folders, coloring books, picture books, videos, a fan club subscription, bendable figures, granola bars, macaroni, cookies, computer, Sega, & SNES games, playsets, micro machines, & band-aids.

Very few items I jsut listed appear in ANY franchise today. What I'm trying to say is that companies don't care anymore. The last time I saw kids lines get its own granola bar was 14 years ago. I don't think I'll see that again in my lifetime. Also, most of the stuff I listed doesn't interest kids today. They can't appreciate it. All they care about is their PS3, their Wii, their Xbox 360. It's all been replaced by the gaming world. And don't get me wrong, I love playing video games. But back in the 90's when there was only SNES & Sega, this stuff mattered. Same goes for the Trasnformers in the 80's.

Although we still get some of this stuff today, it's not likely that we'll get the popularity that occured 23 years ago. If you've noticed, there hasn't been a Floating Skywarp Soap Dish lately, has there? Or a train set that had Autobot & Decepticon designs? Nope. All that stuff of the past will stay in the past where it was popular. Trains don't interest kids today. The movie will spark a nice chunk of popularity for a while, but its 15 minutes of fame will sadly enough soon diminish.

Who knows what wil happen after the movie.

However, from what I see, it is not even close. '80s by a bizilion smilion gajillion country miles.

P.S. Yes, slight exageration. >.>

80's, hands down.
These days, kids have so much VIRTUAL fun, that the tangible, in-your-hands kind of toys are dwindling at best.

Gone are the days where Transformers took up one half of a Toys R Us aisle... gone are the days of many a beautiful Transformers (and similar anime) bootlegs swarming the booths at flea markets.

Sure, this ugly 2007 movie will give a teensy squirt of product recognition into the public lexicon, but the time when every kid on every corner was spitting out slobber in the attempt at making a transforming sound are dead, DEAD, DEAD. There will not be a giant, gushing thrust of excitement as has been in the past.

Technology's just too fun these days. WE are becoming action figures with cool accessories. And things are only going to continue in that direction.

Riotflea wrote:80's, hands down.
These days, kids have so much VIRTUAL fun, that the tangible, in-your-hands kind of toys are dwindling at best.

Gone are the days where Transformers took up one half of a Toys R Us aisle... gone are the days of many a beautiful Transformers (and similar anime) bootlegs swarming the booths at flea markets.

Sure, this ugly 2007 movie will give a teensy squirt of product recognition into the public lexicon, but the time when every kid on every corner was spitting out slobber in the attempt at making a transforming sound are dead, DEAD, DEAD. There will not be a giant, gushing thrust of excitement as has been in the past.

Technology's just too fun these days. WE are becoming action figures with cool accessories. And things are only going to continue in that direction.

I have to agree.

After TF ended in the US, I was desperate to find anything TF related, then the Sci-Fi channel started airing re-runs of G1. I used to watch it until 6:30AM...the school bus usually arrived at 6:45AM.

But the run as the credits rolled was worth it.

As other things sprung up, Power Rangers, TMNT, etc. Transformers remained. I traded whatever I could, whatever I had, for used, sometimes broken TFs. Every bithday, every Christmas, when asked what I wanted, it was always the same: Transformers.

Little did I know at the time that the line was long-since dead. Yet I still tried. I searched for anything I could, talked to anyone I knew. Asked anyone and everyone if they had ANY to sell or trade. this is back when $5-10 was A LOT of money. You all whould laugh if you knew the HELL I put myself through for a lose Skullgrin pretender that I never recieved.

I never much cared for anything else. There were guys at school just like me, who talked about old episodes from memory, with incorrect details often enough. Some grew into Star Wars, building up to the time of it's re-relase to theaters.

But I could not be bothered. I never was.

Transformers was the only relevant thing for me growing up.

I can't understand how anything, especially one-dimensional action figures, could ever compete with such complex, multi-dimensional things as Transformers.

Burn wrote:I don't think it can be really measured.

Both are very different eras. The 80's never had the technology these days. The 80's also never had 20+ years of history to reflect on, nor did it have the fanbase variety it has today.

The only reason 80's may seem popular is that those fans of the modern era are probably going through the stage of their lives when playing with toys is a taboo. Once they realise they don't need the acceptance of their peers they'll embrace the things they used to love all over again and there'll be a hoarde of modern day TF fans to join the old folk.

i completely agree with u. im in that age where toys aren't cool anymore. i just turned 20 in march so im pretty young. all of my friends think im insane for likeing transformers and having a collection. but i got over it and now with the new movie coming out im gonna be spending alot of time and alot of my paycheck at toys r us. the one by me the whole front of the store is transformers central. and i cant wait for the new video game to come out its gonna be intense

I remember pogs! I feel so old now...

I get what you mean. The whole hunting for TF's thing. Again, I'll have to use Power Rangers as my thing though. After the very first series ended, I wa soooo sad & searched all over for anything I could find. I must have searched for years for the Green w/Evil mini series. I finally got the episode I was looking for, but the tape was broken on the inside.

I must have gone to yard sales every Saturday to look for the classic PR, & I hit the jackpot one day as I found talking figures, morpher playsets, even two girly dolls of the pink & yellow rangers. I bought it all. I was overwhelmed when I got home. It was like it was 1994 again. (Mind you by this time I was 12, & still into PR) I even found a comic shop in Azusa that still had old comics from'93. Heck, they even had a BW DVD that had just been released, & I remembered that BW were the first of the TF's I was exposed to. So I got that too. Brought back a lot of memories.

I can also relate to wanting PR from other kids. I remember when McDonalds would put the Happy Meal toys in the Happy Meals. I was talkign to every kid to see of they had the part I wanted to build the Megazord. And I found one. Same thing happened w/the watches that were released sometime in 93 or 94 I think. I traded one kid for his Red Ranger.

The thing is, I'm sure this stuff all happened once the biggest part of TF's ended. I can relate to Hot Rod w/trying to find your favorite toy through any means necessary. I still go to hobby shops to this day looking for TF's & PR. Lucky for me I found that old G1 board game for $45 (Which I still have no idea to play w/out instructions) There was even one of those huge cases for displaying purposes (Any 80's chld will know what I'm talking about, the huge cases that opened up to store/display your G1's)I even found a smaller case that I use to store the Constructicons on ebay, as well as that Wheeljack keychain I posted about in another thread.

Yah, this topic reminds me of my hunting days.
I'd hit garage sales, flea markets and every little mom and pop toy store just looking for ANYTHING Transformers, or at least anime / bootleg. I'd walk through a city like Allentown, PA... staring at the dusty top shelves of every tiny store, squinting to see if there was an even dustier Transformers, Orguss, Dunbine or Godaikin robot box forgotten somewhere.

But do you see kids really doing such things these days? Hell no.
For awhile, Power Rangers / Super Sentai type things were fun for people... but the bootlegs always fall back to transforming toys.

Nah, those days are gone. It's just a fact.

I predict the next big toy wave will be when technology brings toys up to speed with iPods and junk... like, toys that transform themselves or have some kind of superior electronic gimmick. (sound, lighting and mp3 abilities through self-charging, battery-less polymers?)

But even then, there also needs to be character idolization.
It's not like you get home from school now and there's JUST GI Joe, Transformers, Thundercats, Voltron and M.A.S.K.

No, now there's Cartoon Network, Fox, godawful freaking Toon Disney and who knows how many other sources of cartoon viewing.

There's no chance for a single cartoon these days to offer something that can indoctrinate a whole boy's age group anymore.
And then there's the internet... forget it.
The days we speak of have passed.

Riotflea wrote:Yah, this topic reminds me of my hunting days.
I'd hit garage sales, flea markets and every little mom and pop toy store just looking for ANYTHING Transformers, or at least anime / bootleg. I'd walk through a city like Allentown, PA... staring at the dusty top shelves of every tiny store, squinting to see if there was an even dustier Transformers, Orguss, Dunbine or Godaikin robot box forgotten somewhere.

But do you see kids really doing such things these days? Hell no.
For awhile, Power Rangers / Super Sentai type things were fun for people... but the bootlegs always fall back to transforming toys.

Nah, those days are gone. It's just a fact.

I predict the next big toy wave will be when technology brings toys up to speed with iPods and junk... like, toys that transform themselves or have some kind of superior electronic gimmick. (sound, lighting and mp3 abilities through self-charging, battery-less polymers?)

But even then, there also needs to be character idolization.
It's not like you get home from school now and there's JUST GI Joe, Transformers, Thundercats, Voltron and M.A.S.K.

No, now there's Cartoon Network, Fox, godawful freaking Toon Disney and who knows how many other sources of cartoon viewing.

There's no chance for a single cartoon these days to offer something that can indoctrinate a whole boy's age group anymore.
And then there's the internet... forget it.
The days we speak of have passed.

So true.

I enjoy the hunt, as frustrating as it might be at times.

The internet has taken a lot of the footwork out of it, unfortunately.

But I did just find a WST Hot Rod chase figure yesterday. I may have paid too much for it, but I wanted it.

Speaking of "chase figures", watch this video...it is freaking hilarious. From one TransFan to another, eh?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3ONWsnPTtQ8

This guy is just awesome. Really, he is crazy funny.

I was laughing so hard at 1:57. The Spy Changers were talking!! That guy is funny. I've actually gne through that. I get buyers remorse a lot. Especially after I bought a Dai Atlas I thought was original but was actually a KO. Damn.....