The Energon Pub

I find the topic of KO transformers rather interesting. As a player of Warhammer 40k, I'm used to spending money on expensive plastic toys. However, I know of people who create molds of Games Workshop's (creators of W40K) figures and make their own. This is frowned upon in the online community and AFAIK illegal. However, GW has never (to my knowledge) frowned upon people sculpting their own models, and in fact encourage it. Even when such sculpting is based heavily upon their own model's designs or their published artwork. However, I do think they would find an issue with it if someone was doing it for a profit.

To me, these seeker molds represent blatant IP violations, because they copy an existing mold nearly exactly, for the financial gain of those selling these KO's. Even if there are slight differences, it doesn't matter, it's still stolen IP. While I'm reasonably sure that Hasbro won't hunt you down for buying such a knockoff, it's really the same thing as buying pirated movies or music. If you have a moral objection to that, then avoid it as I do.

The idea that the 3rd party creations like City Commander or Defender are KO's is being criticised since no "competing molds" exist, but doesn't Hasbro still own the IP to these figures in terms of their design? If no Ultra Magnus figure with his Trailer as armour is available for sale, isn't that up to Hasbro to decide? Just because someone gives a different name to a mold that is obviously based off of artwork or toys that previously existed doesn't make it right.

I'm not passing judgement; I'm far from a saint myself. However I do find it interesting that people seem to "boo", judge, and throw tomatoes at crappy KOs, but applaud in awe and support for professionally done ones (like the mini MP Prime).

Would I ever buy a knock off seeker? Probably not, but then I'm not trying to complete a set of them. Would I buy a City Commander set? Sure, if I could find a KO Magnus to wear it!

Will buy these, not going to pay the ridiculous amount the official ones cost on eBay or other online shops.

Hasbro doesn't care about add-ons. In fact I'm pretty sure they're in favor of add-ons like City Commander. Why? Because it makes people buy more of their product. How many people would have bought that Universe Roadbuster if that upgrade kit hadn't of came out around the same time? Not as many as the people that made that two pack damn near impossible to find. Hasbro only cares when someone makes an entirely new mold of one of their trademarked characters and sells it. Hasbro would probably not like Defender, since it's a new mold based on Springer, but they more than likely will wish that they were still selling Classics Hot Rods when Protector comes out.

As far as calling third party stuff like the Quintessans, City Commander, and the Superion limbs knock offs I don't like it. And not because I have some moral reason. It's that I hate when people misuse words and phrases and then expect everyone to go along with it. They're unlicensed toys not knock off toys. The Classics Seekers in this thread are knock offs. They're exact reproductions of existing molds. And that's what knock offs are. Cheap reproductions of a genuine item that is sold either as an attempt to cash in on the genuine item or is repainted or remolded in an attempt to use the mold as an original toy. It's like the morons that use the phrase Mary Sue for "any character I hate that isn't incompetent" instead of "one dimensional original character with no faults that is instantly better than canon characters".

They'll probably rerelease Classic Rodimus next year when the Protector set comes out.

I would debate you here Loki, about why I knowingly misuse the KO term for FP's stuff, but we were asked to keep it on topic twice.

Personally, I think it's great that KO stuff gets released, because it helps out the poor. Yes, the plastic will be substandard, but it also wont cost as much. Honestly, I can't afford to go to Botcon or pay the rediculously high prices for the limited run repaints, nevermind the over priced FP or Masterpiece stuff. Yeah, they're great for the collectors, but they're crap for the fans. KOs are good for us, who simply can't afford to drop 90 dollars on a piece of plastic for a toy of a character we loved as a child.

Also, they're great for the bashers. Instead of dropping at least $20 on two figures, one to keep, one to bash, you can drop less on KOs and make your fan characters for less. I think if Hasbro really cared about the KOs, they'd have something done about them. It's in their power, after all.

Or it might not be, if they fall under the same laws that control the copyrights on comic book character likenesses.

Absolute Zero wrote:They'll probably rerelease Classic Rodimus next year when the Protector set comes out.

I think you give Hasbro too much credit. Did they re-release Ultra Magnus when City Commander hit? Now people were paying buckets of money for them on ebay... all after the original toy sold for $10 as a Target cheapo repaint and no one wanted them!

Scaleface wrote:

Absolute Zero wrote:They'll probably rerelease Classic Rodimus next year when the Protector set comes out.

I think you give Hasbro too much credit. Did they re-release Ultra Magnus when City Commander hit? No people were paying buckets of money for them on ebay... all after the original toy sold for $10 as a Target cheapo repaint and no one wanted them!

No one? Hey, I wanted that two pack, in fact I preferred Cl UM over Cl V Prime! And that was later justified by the awesome City Commander...

Crappy Keyboard Val, I mean NOW people are paying a lot for a Magnus, not NO people.

Scaleface wrote:As to the cost of importing this KO vs. buying the Henkei Thundercracker, you have to consider that currently you can’t even buy Henkei Thundercracker for anywhere near it’s original price. It’s not on BBTS, and current asking price on ebay starts at $200+! Meanwhile past Classic Starscream toys have sold for $8 to $10 plus shipping from KO toys. Reprolabels sells a set of all six Seekers labels for $18. So even with shipping this will cost a LOT less.

Also, there are currently only THREE Henkei Thundercrackers on ebay, and NO Botcon Thundercrackers. I’m guessing more than three people want this toy.

Hm, I hadn't realized Henkei Thundercrackers were so hard to find. Still though, it makes the knockoff cost almost as much as Henkei TC cost a few years ago. I don't understand why someone (who had the chance) would go through so much trouble for a KO, when they could have had the real deal for almost as much not long ago.

Also, why not just buy a legit version of Classics Starscream and paint that blue? Both have to be painted, why not buy a legit toy that will have better quality plastic?

If anyone wants to buy a knockoff, fine by me. I couldn't give a care as to what someone else does. Though, I do question the logic behind customizing knockoffs.

Nekoman wrote:I don't understand why someone (who had the chance) would go through so much trouble for a KO, when they could have had the real deal for almost as much not long ago.

Also, why not just buy a legit version of Classics Starscream and paint that blue? Both have to be painted, why not buy a legit toy that will have better quality plastic?

If anyone wants to buy a knockoff, fine by me. I couldn't give a care as to what someone else does. Though, I do question the logic behind customizing knockoffs.

1. I do not own a time machine, so I can't go back in time and order a $70 Henkei TC or a $40 Botcon TC. I have to pay TODAY's prices.

2. If I planned ot paint the ENTIRE figure blue with paint, I'd have already done that with one of the other mold-mates. Obviously I want to start with a blue base and just add some detailing and stickers. I don't know about you, but I can't stand holding a figure which is covered in hand-paints.

3. Some people will just be happy ordering a $10 KO and sticking him on the shelf where TC goes. Even $70 would have been tooo much to pay for a Deluxe. Personally, I'll probably just order this guy in my next patch of KOs (I like collecting unusual KOs), paint the head black, add some repro labels, and stick him next to Classics SS and SW. Total cost to me will probably be $15 for my psuedo-Thundercracker. The only other alternative would be start bidding on ebay. Biddign opens currently for $200 for a Henkei!

Scaleface wrote:Crappy Keyboard Val, I mean NOW people are paying a lot for a Magnus, not NO people.

I figured that, THIS is the part I was referring to:

Scaleface wrote:and no one wanted them!

And like I said, back then I preferred the Magnus look to the Prime look. For that figure, at least.

Okay, SOME people wanted them (I liked that Magnus), but I recall them going for 70% off clearance, and seeing tons of them on the shelves. ON ebay there were dozens of auctions for ONLY Magnus (people bought the set just for Skywarp!). Magnus wasn't nearly as popular until City Commander came out, and then when it did Hasbro failed to reissue him to cash in on the sudden popularity. Magnus went from being a figure sold for $3 to $70 in a short time.

Scaleface wrote:Okay, SOME people wanted them (I liked that Magnus), but I recall them going for 70% off clearance, and seeing tons of them on the shelves. ON ebay there were dozens of auctions for ONLY Magnus (people bought the set just for Skywarp!). Magnus wasn't nearly as popular until City Commander came out, and then when it did Hasbro failed to reissue him to cash in on the sudden popularity. Magnus went from being a figure sold for $3 to $70 in a short time.

Magnus did have a kind of reissue to the Asian market via the Prime/Magnust 2-pack.

DId Hasbro release that one?

Scaleface wrote:DId Hasbro release that one?

(Assuming you're referring to the Prime/Magnus giftset) Yes.

Razorclaw0000 wrote:

Scaleface wrote:DId Hasbro release that one?

(Assuming you're referring to the Prime/Magnus giftset) Yes.

But not in the U.S.

Must have been made by some weird foreign branch of Hasbro where they send all the executives with good ideas to keep them from infecting the main office with sane concepts - that way they can concentrate on important ideas like white Powerglide.

Scaleface wrote:Must have been made by some weird foreign branch of Hasbro where they send all the executives with good ideas to keep them from infecting the main office with sane concepts - that way they can concentrate on important ideas like white Powerglide.

Sadly those brave men and women from the weird forign branch were all killed in a massive explosion on the set of the 2007 Transformers Movie.

When asked what part of the movie the explosion was for, a confused Michael Bay simply replyed "Part of what movie???"

--B-- wrote:

Scaleface wrote:Must have been made by some weird foreign branch of Hasbro where they send all the executives with good ideas to keep them from infecting the main office with sane concepts - that way they can concentrate on important ideas like white Powerglide.

Sadly those brave men and women from the weird forign branch were all killed in a massive explosion on the set of the 2007 Transformers Movie.

When asked what part of the movie the explosion was for, a confused Michael Bay simply replyed "Part of what movie???"

Scaleface wrote:This is a knockoff, it's also one many fans have been hoping for for years. Hurray for blue seeker knockoffs!

The topic shouldn't be "Buyers Beware: KO Classic Skywarp & Thundercracker" it should be "Buyers Rejoice: KO Classic Skywarp & Thundercracker!"

I hope we get a nice "orange seeker" too.

Even if you have a Thundercracker already, maybe this can be one of the Rainmakers or something.

This thing screams Blue Rainmaker.

A couple of the white knock-offs will be happily repainted into the Yellow Rainmaker and Sunstorm.

Never bought KOs before. Looks like these will be the first.

Blurrz wrote:
In regards to what or what not we call knock offs - I believe that almost everything produced by a 3rd party can be considered a knock off. Without the existence of something Hasbro has created, a creation is useless and void. So yes, that means everything FP has made is a knock-off to me. Upcoming Defender is not a knock-off, but everything prior that has been an attachment is. It might not appear to be... but that's what it boils down to.

So those fancy rims for your car are "knock-offs" as well as any software you're using on your PC that's not made by IBM...as well as your PC itself (assuming it too is not an IBM)? Any other comparisons we can use to play devil's advocate? Not quite the same, but my favorite is still the one where Hasbro steals the IP of cars and the like for their alt modes that aren't officially licensed. In fact, I think you should look into the legalities of me reposting your original material above without permission!

Just messin'... I don't care much about any of this, but the debate can be fun. Feel free to post the link to the youtube video I spoke of on page 3 if you found my "tone" salty in any way...

Just a point I'd like to make . . . . .

Hasbro/takara continuously bombard us with recolours - sometimes of figures that we ( adult fans and collectors ) have already made clear that we don't like. Of the ten products listed in the Toy news from hasbro FIVE are repaints. The Blazemaster Mold went down like a lead balloon because it has poor articulation, durability and very poor build quality, The movie Ironhide is very flawed, difficult to pose, transform and not break. The scout classes are probably the best toys to come out of ROTF but we don't need them re-releasing in different colours every couple of months! 2 of the new line up are just rehashes of already existing characters, in an odd scale with a crappy plastic figure, I doubt if any of us are excited by that er . . . sideswipey thing for kids. In fact the only remotely impressive thing about the new hasbro releases is Bludgeon who I would probably fight children for right in the middle of Toys r us. lol Even that has some really bad quality plastic for the Tank Barrel though.

Yet the one design that is actually canon to have several identical figures of is the seekers. Apart from a couple of same side twins here and there and reflector there are NO repaints in opposing factions in ANY of the transformers literature that haven't come about simply to include repainted characters that existed before the storyline and were released just to make money.

The one kind of figure I would buy 8 of is the seeker classic. I'm quite lucky that in the UK skywarp came with Classic Ultra Magnus ( and was half price for some bizarre reason! £15.99 lol ) so I snapped him and also have Ramjet, Starscream and Acidstorm. If hasbro or Takara put Thrust, Dirge and Thundercracker ( plus sunstorm come to mention it ) in my local shops i'd probably buy all 4 as soon as I was possibly able to afford it.

But no - they know the allure of these figures so they are holding back or making them so difficult or expensive that fans like me - who have been buying transformers since 1984 when I was six can't really hope to get them. I do an average job for an average wage. I can't afford to spend the amounts that some figures like this go for, most people can't.

So to finally conclude -

F**K You Hasbro / Takara. If I can find them I will buy these knockoffs and be glad that even if it is just about making money SOMEONE out there is listening to what ordinary fans want. Something it seems the real manufacturer cannot do unless it involves cheaply repainting and repackaging existing rubbish or an opportunity to get someone to pay £80 for about £3 worth of plastic.

doomseer wrote:Just a point I'd like to make . . . . .

More like several, but here we go...

Hasbro/takara continuously bombard us with recolours - sometimes of figures that we ( adult fans and collectors ) have already made clear that we don't like.

So? We're not the target market.

Of the ten products listed in the Toy news from hasbro FIVE are repaints.

Correction, 4 redecos and one HUGE re-tool

The Blazemaster Mold went down like a lead balloon because it has poor articulation, durability and very poor build quality

Yup

The movie Ironhide is very flawed, difficult to pose, transform and not break.

Again, yes. Though I don't see how this adds to the argument.

The scout classes are probably the best toys to come out of ROTF

Yes

but we don't need them re-releasing in different colours every couple of months! 2 of the new line up are just rehashes of already existing characters, in an odd scale with a crappy plastic figure,

Don't like 'em don't buy 'em. I'll be getting Sonar for sure. I've found that often redecos have more detailed paint schemes because they have a little extra wiggle room financially.

I doubt if any of us are excited by that er . . . sideswipey thing for kids.

Indeed, but many of us have kids, and it's perfectly targetted for that market; you know, the one we're not in?

In fact the only remotely impressive thing about the new hasbro releases is Bludgeon who I would probably fight children for right in the middle of Toys r us. lol Even that has some really bad quality plastic for the Tank Barrel though.

Hell Ya! I don't know where you got that note about the barrel though. Mine doesn't have problems and I haven't heard of any.

Yet the one design that is actually canon to have several identical figures of is the seekers. Apart from a couple of same side twins here and there and reflector there are NO repaints in opposing factions in ANY of the transformers literature that haven't come about simply to include repainted characters that existed before the storyline and were released just to make money.

Seekers, Rumble/Frenzy, Trailbreaker/Hoist, Sideswipe/Red Alert Ultra Magnus's Cab/Optimus Prime...

Remember, the cartoon was made to sell toys. They also averaged about 30 figures A YEAR!

The one kind of figure I would buy 8 of is the seeker classic. I'm quite lucky that in the UK skywarp came with Classic Ultra Magnus ( and was half price for some bizarre reason! £15.99 lol ) so I snapped him and also have Ramjet, Starscream and Acidstorm. If hasbro or Takara put Thrust, Dirge and Thundercracker ( plus sunstorm come to mention it ) in my local shops i'd probably buy all 4 as soon as I was possibly able to afford it.

But no - they know the allure of these figures so they are holding back or making them so difficult or expensive that fans like me

No. There was no market for the figs. Classics were failing and was thought dead after the Skywarp/Magnus 2-pack. That's why they didn't see the need to release further figures. You should be lucky that they were released AT ALL.

- who have been buying transformers since 1984 when I was six can't really hope to get them. I do an average job for an average wage.

Sorry, you're no longer part of the target market. You can throw a tantrum and vent, but it'll do you no good.

I can't afford to spend the amounts that some figures like this go for, most people can't.

Most people stopped collecting TFs after they were 10 years old or discovered members of the opposite sex

So to finally conclude -

F**K You Hasbro / Takara.

And yet you're still giving them money...

If I can find them I will buy these knockoffs

Me too, but for different reasons it seems.

and be glad that even if it is just about making money SOMEONE out there is listening to what ordinary fans want.

Somehow I doubt that they made them to appease us. Most likely they got the molds and found some nice colours. The fact that 1 of the line of at least 4 KOs bear a likeness to Thundercracker is just as easily a lucky guess than someone listening to us.

Something it seems the real manufacturer cannot do unless it involves cheaply repainting and repackaging existing rubbish or an opportunity to get someone to pay £80 for about £3 worth of plastic.

And labour... and shipping... and distribution... something called supply and demand... acceptible price margins... estimated sales...

In short, don't blame Habro and Takara. Blame all the 6-10 year olds who didn't see the need to buy as many of the Classics line as they should of.

Stupid kids; screwing us fans over with your lack of interest or disposable income.

doomseer wrote: If hasbro or Takara put Thrust, Dirge and Thundercracker ( plus sunstorm come to mention it ) in my local shops i'd probably buy all 4 as soon as I was possibly able to afford it.

But no - they know the allure of these figures so they are holding back or making them so difficult or expensive that fans like me - who have been buying transformers since 1984 when I was six can't really hope to get them. I do an average job for an average wage. I can't afford to spend the amounts that some figures like this go for, most people can't.

Bloody hell. I don't normally stick my oar on on these big arguments, but this is the approximate sequence of events:

a) Hasbro releases the Classics line as a stop-gap between the Unicron Trilogy and the forthcoming movie. Longterm fans are rewarded with optimised versions of oldskool characters. Starscream and Skywarp are released.
b) The line fails to sell as well as expected and gets shut down to make room for the movie line.
c) Hundreds of fans with overactive senses of entitlement start BAWWWing at the fact that Thundercracker wasn't also released.
d) As a very decent compromise, since they are unable to release him at retail Hasbro agree to let Botcon release Thundercracker, amongst others as an exclusive. As part of the terms of the exclusive, Hasbro agree not to make Thundercracker as a conventional figure.
e) Hundreds of fans start BAWWWing at the fact that Thundercracker is too expensive or too unavailable.
f) Takara release an exclusive Thundercracker in Japan, a country that has no Botcon.
g) Hundreds of fans start BAWWWing at the fact that Thundercracker has been released outside of America.

But even all that aside, you are a GROWNUP. You should have matured to the point that if you want something but it isn't cheap, you either have to pay up, or shut up. Only a spoilt brat gets given a baseball ball and a baseball bat for their birthday and throws a tantrum over not getting given a glove too. Would you rather the Classics seeker mold had never been created, so that it couldn't "allure" you into wanting more of it? That's terrible. Hasbro did the fans a big favour with the Classics line and only got bitched out for it. Then they tried to do a favour with the Botcons and got bitched out for that.

Sorry if I'm coming across a bit strong but it really bugs me when people act like Hasbro owes them something.

h) China releases low cost blue Seeker, and people who couldn't afford previous Thundercrackers or missed them are more or less happy.

Scaleface wrote:h) China releases low cost blue Seeker, and people who couldn't afford previous Thundercrackers or missed them are more or less happy.

i) Fans who already have Botcon/Henkei Thundercracker innocently point out that they prefer their official toys to the KOs.
j) Fans who don't already own Thundercracker start BAWWWing about the "elitism" of the previous group of fans.