The Energon Pub

So many people arent getting my arguement so let me clarify it...


Everybody is quick to defend Hasbro (corporate) everytime a KO company or even a 3rd party makes a buck off their "IP".

But how many of you are willing to step up and defend the people who laid the foundation 30 years ago for Hasbro to make all this money today ? Especially the ones who Hasbro gave pink slips to years ago when they thought the TF franchise was going belly under ? Designers, artists, voice actors, its all the same to me. They made the TF Brand into the cash cow that is today. Show em some love...

Maybe it doesnt work that way in the corporate world. Im not corporate so I wouldnt know. But if you use street logic, you take care of the people who took care of you. Maybe that explains the lack of mods on here to curb this KO debate. But thats just a wild guess on my part. It's none of my business why they resigned.

Rated X wrote:So many people arent getting my arguement so let me clarify it...


Everybody is quick to defend Hasbro (corporate) everytime a KO company or even a 3rd party makes a buck off their "IP".

But how many of you are willing to step up and defend the people who laid the foundation 30 years ago for Hasbro to make all this money today ? Especially the ones who Hasbro gave pink slips to years ago when they thought the TF franchise was going belly under ? Designers, artists, voice actors, its all the same to me. They made the TF Brand into the cash cow that is today. Show em some love...

Maybe it doesnt work that way in the corporate world. Im not corporate so I wouldnt know. But if you use street logic, you take care of the people who took care of you. Maybe that explains the lack of mods on here to curb this KO debate. But thats just a wild guess on my part. It's none of my business why they resigned.

Yeah, so tell me again which merchandise you'd actually support under your logic. Because it seems to me the answer is "nothing." If you had a choice you wouldn't buy legit anything.

Not supporting any creators doesn't mean you support old creators. It just means you're a hypocrite.

Rated X wrote:So many people arent getting my arguement so let me clarify it...


Everybody is quick to defend Hasbro (corporate) everytime a KO company or even a 3rd party makes a buck off their "IP".

Because they own it. Just because you put IP in quotes, doesn't mean it's not real.

Rated X wrote:But how many of you are willing to step up and defend the people who laid the foundation 30 years ago for Hasbro to make all this money today ?

I'm sure plenty of people would be happy to defend them... if you could actually prove they had been wronged. But you haven't.

Rated X wrote:Especially the ones who Hasbro gave pink slips to years ago when they thought the TF franchise was going belly under ? Designers, artists, voice actors, its all the same to me. They made the TF Brand into the cash cow that is today. Show em some love...

People get laid off. That's the real world right there. But what amazes me is that you want to respect the people who no longer work at Hasbro, but somehow, the people who still work there are not worthy of your respect? Because the people who continue to develop the brand are the ones you're hurting by buying knock-offs.

Rated X wrote:Maybe it doesnt work that way in the corporate world. Im not corporate so I wouldnt know. But if you use street logic, you take care of the people who took care of you. Maybe that explains the lack of mods on here to curb this KO debate. But thats just a wild guess on my part. It's none of my business why they resigned.

Uh, what? Is street logic a code word for no logic?

Rated X wrote:So many people arent getting my argument

Oh, I get it. I just don't agree with it, think it makes any sense, or think it holds any water.

Rated X wrote:so let me clarify it...

Unnecessary, as you have already gone on about it at great length. But if you feel the need to say the same baseless things over again, then (with apologies to Dead Metal) go ahead...

Rated X wrote:Everybody is quick to defend Hasbro (corporate) everytime a KO company or even a 3rd party makes a buck off their "IP".

Perhaps because Hasbro owns the Transformers molds and characters, and (since you brought up the third parties) companies like Fansproject or Maketoys owns the designs to original (if heavily paying homage to Has/Tak characters) things they create like City Commander or Battle Tanker. (Those have both been knocked off, and your lack of disagreement with that seems to imply you have no problem with little guy creators being ripped off any more then the big corporate monsters.)

Rated X wrote:But how many of you are willing to step up and defend the people who laid the foundation 30 years ago for Hasbro to make all this money today ? Especially the ones who Hasbro gave pink slips to years ago when they thought the TF franchise was going belly under ? Designers, artists, voice actors, its all the same to me. They made the TF Brand into the cash cow that is today. Show em some love...

You mean all of the people that were hired to do specific jobs, did them, and were paid for their work? Oh no! Hasbro and Takara once employed people! And still employees people today! And some of those people might even be some of the same people! What an evil corporate giant! Obviously, the solution to this is to steal from them, so they have less money to (a) continue the Transformers brand into the future and (b) continue employing those they currently do!

Yesterday you commented, "Im not exactly the most moral person in the world." I don't think you've said a truer statement in this entire thread. I just wish you'd continue this truth and acknowledge that your love of knock-offs is more about feeling entitled to whatever you want for as cheap as you can get it, legality be damned. And stop pretending it is some noble quest to protect and support "creator's rights." Especially since those creators are sure a hell of a lot less likely to see a dime from the bootlegging companies, where as even if they are no longer getting paid by Has/Tak (which is not always the case) they at least once saw compensation from them.

So unless you are sending the difference in money between what you pay for a knock off and what you would have paid for a legitimate product directly to the creative talent you feel is being slighted, shut the heck up about "creators rights."

Yotsuyasan wrote:Perhaps because Hasbro owns the Transformers molds and characters, and (since you brought up the third parties) companies like Fansproject or Maketoys owns the designs to original (if heavily paying homage to Has/Tak characters) things they create like City Commander or Battle Tanker. (Those have both been knocked off, and your lack of disagreement with that seems to imply you have no problem with little guy creators being ripped off any more then the big corporate monsters.)

And I gotta say it bugs me that X is talking, loudly, about how much he loves creator rights while being gleeful when 3rd parties get ripped off. I get not being loyal to Hasbro and Takara for transforming robots, but you'd think he'd want to really stick up for the little guy when they try to cater directly to our market. Nope. Where's his pro-creator status when it comes to supporting 3rd parties? Or are they fair game because they also don't respect Hasbro/Takara's IP? Maybe being able to mass produce something means you're too rich to support.

Yotsuyasan wrote:

Rated X wrote:So many people arent getting my argument

Oh, I get it. I just don't agree with it, think it makes any sense, or think it holds any water.

Rated X wrote:so let me clarify it...

Unnecessary, as you have already gone on about it at great length. But if you feel the need to say the same baseless things over again, then (with apologies to Dead Metal) go ahead...

Rated X wrote:Everybody is quick to defend Hasbro (corporate) everytime a KO company or even a 3rd party makes a buck off their "IP".

Perhaps because Hasbro owns the Transformers molds and characters, and (since you brought up the third parties) companies like Fansproject or Maketoys owns the designs to original (if heavily paying homage to Has/Tak characters) things they create like City Commander or Battle Tanker. (Those have both been knocked off, and your lack of disagreement with that seems to imply you have no problem with little guy creators being ripped off any more then the big corporate monsters.)

Rated X wrote:But how many of you are willing to step up and defend the people who laid the foundation 30 years ago for Hasbro to make all this money today ? Especially the ones who Hasbro gave pink slips to years ago when they thought the TF franchise was going belly under ? Designers, artists, voice actors, its all the same to me. They made the TF Brand into the cash cow that is today. Show em some love...

You mean all of the people that were hired to do specific jobs, did them, and were paid for their work? Oh no! Hasbro and Takara once employed people! And still employees people today! And some of those people might even be some of the same people! What an evil corporate giant! Obviously, the solution to this is to steal from them, so they have less money to (a) continue the Transformers brand into the future and (b) continue employing those they currently do!

Yesterday you commented, "Im not exactly the most moral person in the world." I don't think you've said a truer statement in this entire thread. I just wish you'd continue this truth and acknowledge that your love of knock-offs is more about feeling entitled to whatever you want for as cheap as you can get it, legality be damned. And stop pretending it is some noble quest to protect and support "creator's rights." Especially since those creators are sure a hell of a lot less likely to see a dime from the bootlegging companies, where as even if they are no longer getting paid by Has/Tak (which is not always the case) they at least once saw compensation from them.

So unless you are sending the difference in money between what you pay for a knock off and what you would have paid for a legitimate product directly to the creative talent you feel is being slighted, shut the heck up about "creators rights."

You totally missed the point. Keep defending the corporate giant and their "IP". Keep saying Im on some kind of "noble quest". All Im saying is Hasbro got a whole pie and isnt trying to share a crumb with nobody. Thats why the whole IP debate exists. Whether it be KO or 3rd party.

And like I said Im not the most moral person in the world. If I could rob royalties from Hasbro and write Buster a check, I would. But Im not a KO company, Im a collector. And my collecting focus is based on obtaining characters on a shelf that looks cool...not brands, value, or ethics.

You cant jump inside my head and read my mind, so dont try to speak for me. You dont have that discretion. It's your opinion that I dont support creators. That doesnt make your opinion true. I dont need a mouthpiece trying to twist my beliefs. I can speak for myself through my posts. If you dont like where I stand on KO's, IP, or Hasbro corporate divison, tough s**t.

It's not so much your stance on KOs and IP as it is your hypocrisy and lack of respect for creators.

You're an anarchist who loves seeing companies get screwed over. You want to pay as little as possible for your toys regardless of who makes them. That's actually fine with me, but you're lying to yourself if you think you're actually pro-creator at all.

But, hey, you know what? You can prove me wrong. You don't have to wait for Hasbro to come to your way of thinking. Find the creators you say you support and cut them a personal cheque. It's entirely within your power to give them the part of your money you feel they deserve from you. This would include money you saved by buying a KO.

I just love how he keeps lying about the creative talent not getting a piece of the pie. Hasbro/Takara PAID them to design/produce/act for Hasbro/Takara. If I hire a architect to design my house is it his after I pay for it, of course not because I paid him to work for me. If I make money for one of my brokerage's clients am I entitled to all of it, again of course not because they are paying me to make them money. So why should Hasbro/Takara have to shell out money to people they already paid?

Rated X wrote:You totally missed the point.

Well, Rated X, it is really freaking hard to not miss your point when (from, it seems, the point of view of every other reasonable person attempting to carry on this discussion) every time we address the points you make, you deflect our arguments and change your point.

But fine, you say Hasbro isn't entitled to the whole pie? Well, they are certainly entitled to the pieces of pie they own. Some they bought. Some they baked themselves. But it is their pie. They legally own it. And you saying they shouldn't own it doesn't change that they do.

And it isn't the whole pie. There's the not-direct-knock-off-producing companies like Fansproject. Yes, they are in a grey area... but as long as they don't directly produce something 100% identical to (or reverse engineered from... I'll admit Maketoys has me a bit concerned with the cab section of their Hyper Novae toy...) a Hasbro product, it is a grey area I can live in.

But even if you don't want to count the third party companies as a legit part of the pie... then we have to ask what the pie is. Is it a Transformers pie? Well, then yes, I say Hasbro & Takara are in every way entitled to have that whole pie. They made it. (The creative talent you keep speaking of was just the ingredients they paid for and used.) If they don't want to share it... well, even if I don't agree with it, it is their right. But if we're just talking about a transforming robot toy pie, there are plenty of pieces of that pie to go around to everyone without steeling Has/Tak's piece. To name but a few, Macross, Power Rangers, or Voltron. Heck, although Hasbro since (legally) bought that piece, back in the day Go Bots was a separate delicious slice of pie.

So really, Rated X, if your point isn't, "I want cheep-ass toys, and I don't care if they are legally produced," you're right. I do miss your point. Because everything else you say is your point either makes no sense or is easily refuted... and when refuted, you just always say, "No, that wasn't my point, this bullshit reason is!"

And if, "I want cheep-ass toys, and I don't care if they are legally produced," is your point, as it so blatantly seems to be, I wish you'd drop the pretense of trying to convince us all it is for some higher reason.

Yotsuyasan wrote:

Rated X wrote:You totally missed the point.

Well, Rated X, it is really freaking hard to not miss your point when (from, it seems, the point of view of every other reasonable person attempting to carry on this discussion) every time we address the points you make, you deflect our arguments and change your point.

But fine, you say Hasbro isn't entitled to the whole pie? Well, they are certainly entitled to the pieces of pie they own. Some they bought. Some they baked themselves. But it is their pie. They legally own it. And you saying they shouldn't own it doesn't change that they do.

And it isn't the whole pie. There's the not-direct-knock-off-producing companies like Fansproject. Yes, they are in a grey area... but as long as they don't directly produce something 100% identical to (or reverse engineered from... I'll admit Maketoys has me a bit concerned with the cab section of their Hyper Novae toy...) a Hasbro product, it is a grey area I can live in.

But even if you don't want to count the third party companies as a legit part of the pie... then we have to ask what the pie is. Is it a Transformers pie? Well, then yes, I say Hasbro & Takara are in every way entitled to have that whole pie. They made it. (The creative talent you keep speaking of was just the ingredients they paid for and used.) If they don't want to share it... well, even if I don't agree with it, it is their right. But if we're just talking about a transforming robot toy pie, there are plenty of pieces of that pie to go around to everyone without steeling Has/Tak's piece. To name but a few, Macross, Power Rangers, or Voltron. Heck, although Hasbro since (legally) bought that piece, back in the day Go Bots was a separate delicious slice of pie.

So really, Rated X, if your point isn't, "I want cheep-ass toys, and I don't care if they are legally produced," you're right. I do miss your point. Because everything else you say is your point either makes no sense or is easily refuted... and when refuted, you just always say, "No, that wasn't my point, this bullshit reason is!"

And if, "I want cheep-ass toys, and I don't care if they are legally produced," is your point, as it so blatantly seems to be, I wish you'd drop the pretense of trying to convince us all it is for some higher reason.

Who made you a higher power to declare someone else's reason "bulls**t" ???

I guess were just going to have to disagree. I seem to be a rare breed of collector that isnt bothered by legal issues and find it funny other collectors are.

Rated X wrote:But how many of you are willing to step up and defend the people who laid the foundation 30 years ago for Hasbro to make all this money today ? Especially the ones who Hasbro gave pink slips to years ago when they thought the TF franchise was going belly under ? Designers, artists, voice actors, its all the same to me. They made the TF Brand into the cash cow that is today. Show em some love...

And those same people were paid for their work!

Would you expect an employer YOU left 30 years ago to pay you money if you were out of work? No seriously, answer that.

And if you're so concerned about the welfare of these creators and voice talents, how about YOU send them YOUR money instead of buying KO's and 3rd party products?

Because let's face it, whether you buy "legitimate" or "non-legitimate" TF's, YOUR money still isn't going to the creators, voice talents, artists etc.

Oh but wait ... what have many others pointed out? That a number of the original designers STILL work for Takara Tomy ... oh yeah ... so I guess when YOU buy KO's and 3rd party YOU are actually taking money from the original designers that are STILL getting paid for their work.

Rated X wrote:Who made you a higher power to declare someone else's reason "bulls**t" ???

You're right. I'm not a higher power. I'm just a man, who sees things and calls them as he sees them. And you have shown me nothing to dispute opinion your past statements have caused me to form regarding you.

But let us at least get a greater sampling of opinions on the matter.

Edit: removed link to poll... see my next post in this thread.

Rated X wrote:I guess were just going to have to disagree. I seem to be a rare breed of collector that isnt bothered by legal issues and find it funny other collectors are.

Other collectors care about actually giving money to people who make the stuff they like a bit more than you do.

Yotsuyasan wrote:

Rated X wrote:Who made you a higher power to declare someone else's reason "bulls**t" ???

You're right. I'm not a higher power. I'm just a man, who sees things and calls them as he sees them. And you have shown me nothing to dispute opinion your past statements have caused me to form regarding you.

But let us at least get a greater sampling of opinions on the matter.

I don't know, do we get a cookie or something for voting..... I may just need to go eat lunch.

In my last post here, I took Rated X's questioning who I was to declare his stated motivation to be bull as an invitation to get a larger sample opinion then just my own. To that effect, I created a (hopefully tongue in cheek) poll to get those opinions, and posted a link to it in my last post.

Since then, I received a message from a moderator (which one, I shall leave anonymous unless he or she chooses to self identify), sympathetic to my posting of it but concerned that it may be inflammatory. I could see the point, thus I removed the link to my poll in my last post, and closed the poll on the website hosting it in case anyone already had the link to it.

Before putting the poll completely behind me, I will however state that in the short time it was open it only generated a small sample size, but the limited response did seem to back up my original stipulation towards the perceived legitimacy (or lack thereof) of Rated X's motivation.

(80% agreed, no one disagreed, and 20% didn't care.)

And with that, I shall try and back away from this thread, at least for the remainder of today.

Im not offended by any poll. If thats how far he wanted to take it, than so be it. Im actually flattered.

At the end of the day I know my views are different than most posters here. If I chose to follow the popular opinion, I wouldnt be speaking from the heart.

Rated X wrote:Im not offended by any poll. If thats how far he wanted to take it, than so be it. Im actually flattered.

At the end of the day I know my views are different than most posters here. If I chose to follow the popular opinion, I wouldnt be speaking from the heart.

That's completely nonsensical. Simply having a unpopular opinion doesn't give you a monopoly on speaking from the heart.

Edit: Sorry X I misread your post, I take back what I said.

Rated X wrote:Im not offended by any poll. If thats how far he wanted to take it, than so be it. Im actually flattered.

At the end of the day I know my views are different than most posters here. If I chose to follow the popular opinion, I wouldnt be speaking from the heart.

Most people here are willing to admit it when they're in it just for the lowest price above everything else. So, I guess yeah. You don't follow the popular opinion that people should be honest about their actions.

Speaking from the heart is one thing. Acting on those words is quite another. You're good at talking, but as far as acting - I haven't seen you demonstrate that at all. Even by your own twisted logic.

Rated X wrote:At the end of the day I know my views are different than most posters here. If I chose to follow the popular opinion, I wouldnt be speaking from the heart.

Wow ... you just don't know when to stop with the insults do you?

Rated X wrote:I guess were just going to have to disagree. I seem to be a rare breed of collector that isnt bothered by legal issues and find it funny other collectors are.

If you said this in the beginning, I don't think anyone would have been down your throat about it. Not being bothered by legal issues and/or wanting a good price is legit, but you have to be consistent.

Echoing everyone else, saying you're buying KOs because you respect the creators isn't consistent when some of the creators are still on HasTak's payroll, and when HasTak continues to enrich the brand and put out product and employ creatives.

Wow so much drama

I thought "oh this looks like there is alot of chatter going on about some KO's, must be important."

Nope just another argument with Rated X.

Thadicon wrote:Nope just another argument with Rated X.

Burn wrote:

Rated X wrote:At the end of the day I know my views are different than most posters here. If I chose to follow the popular opinion, I wouldnt be speaking from the heart.

Wow ... you just don't know when to stop with the insults do you?

So how is me stating that im speaking from the heart an insult ? you lost me with that one seriously...you got a bunch of dudes attacking me trying to tell me what im thinking like if they are inside my mind. They say im lying, acting, talking, whatever. They seem to think i have the power to act on my beliefs just because i state them on a forum. I dont own a KO company. Im not a philanthropist. Im just a collector who merely stated that hasbro doesnt give a crap about some of its former employees but that doesnt stop people on here from sucking up to hasbro over the IP debate. Now everybody on here wants me to wave a magic wand and help anybody hasbro screwed just because i mentioned the possibility could be real. i got the right to believe what i want and its a load of crap people are saying i dont really believe what im typing like if they can read my mind....sheesh ! They need to stop sucking up to the hasbro corporate division. And that statement wasnt meant to be insulting. Its just me speaking from the heart whether they like it or not...

Maybe I called you a liar because you make things up and argue like they are facts rather than unfounded insinuations.

I say you're lying to us and yourself about being pro-creative because you're gleeful even when 3rd party KOs are made. It's even more telling that you don't care that the lead designer from the Diaclone days still works at Takara; you don't care about supporting him by buying legit.

You're anti-corperate, but you are not pro-creator. You don't go out of your way to help creators. You love seeing them ripped off when it saves you money.