The Energon Pub

Honestly, the no-clans thing was kinda retarded. I understand why it was done, but it was handled poorly. On -everything- that involves groups of people online, you always end up with groups/clans/guilds/cliques/ect. Why? It's human nature for people to group up, usually with people who share something in common. Country, location, nationality, whatever.

Unfortunatly, a side effect of that is usually flaming. Does that mean that clans shouldn't be allowed? No, but it does mean there needs to be some strict enforcement both within the clan and from site mods. The clan needs to make sure that it's members know it reflects bad on them if they're constantly starting arguements on the boards, and the moderators need to understand that just because someone starts up something, doesn't mean the entire clan is at fault. That causes more problems then it solves.

And of course, trollers need to be punished as harshly as flamers. There have been times in the past where someone went trolling on the board, and as far as was known, didn't get in trouble, but everyone else who responded did.

*Edit* And as for getting the faction forums some attention... How about making them easier to find. Like a link in this forum, or on the side bar.

The problem I see with "clans" is this player population simply isn't big enough to support them.

Other games tend to be you -vs- everyone else. HMW from the start eliminates approximately 50% of the players as opponents and automatically make them your "clan members".

V2's suppose to be about territory and resources therefore it's going to be more important than ever that the two (or four when you factor in Maximals and Predacons) factions work together.

You start adding in "clans" (or sub-factions) and suddenly things like "we can share the configs that work" will become a big thing and suddenly you'll have clans working against each other within the same faction which in the end will be bad for the faction as a whole, and unless you're a member of a "clan" you're liable to miss out on advice for configs.

So can someone please explain to me how this seems to be more and more like elitism, we've got the faction specific forums, THAT is where configs should be shared. Not off-site where only a small number of players can access them.

To start, I'm a member of AWC. To me a large part of its appeal was the ability to talk about stuff without the other side seeing every word. This will become much more important in Vrs. 2.0 with the zones of control and actual strategy. That is potenially done with the onsite faction pages (which need a link in the drop down list ). It's currently not ,but it has the potenial. Maybe a sticky at the top of those forums giving the link to the AWC or the RDD for the stuff like sqauds and the like that we don't get enough space for here (no offence to Ryan, I understand you can't do everything on your servers).

I would rather see thier being 2 "clan" sites that do sqauds ect ,but represent the faction (Auto or Decept) as a whole and if someone wants to do some other stuff... well if a group of friends want to have a site for thier HMW teams and thier are the "we hate Prime Autobots" who cares. Cartoon G1 Insecticons or G1 comic Dinobots anyone.

I agree with Burn. The first thing the game does is place you in a "clan." I don't see any real need or actual point to having player run sub-factions.

Decepticon or Autobot is division enough for HMW.

Burn wrote:The problem I see with "clans" is this player population simply isn't big enough to support them.

Other games tend to be you -vs- everyone else. HMW from the start eliminates approximately 50% of the players as opponents and automatically make them your "clan members".

V2's suppose to be about territory and resources therefore it's going to be more important than ever that the two (or four when you factor in Maximals and Predacons) factions work together.

You start adding in "clans" (or sub-factions) and suddenly things like "we can share the configs that work" will become a big thing and suddenly you'll have clans working against each other within the same faction which in the end will be bad for the faction as a whole, and unless you're a member of a "clan" you're liable to miss out on advice for configs.

So can someone please explain to me how this seems to be more and more like elitism, we've got the faction specific forums, THAT is where configs should be shared. Not off-site where only a small number of players can access them.

I disagree. WoW is the same set up, you're either Horde or Alliance, but there are still clans inside that. Yes, WoW is a lot larger then HWM, but your point was that in HMW, roughly half the players are on your side, so there's no point to clans. In WoW, roughly half the people are on your side as well, and there are still clans. How many times did I just say the samething? Man I'm stupid. Ok, moving on...

If we get the clans back on Seibs, in the faction subforums, then configurations can be shared, and you wont have people off site not helping everyone. Transformers is full of subgroups, it's what all of the combiner teams are, it can be pretty deciently argued by someone smarter then I that clans are infact a part of Transformers, and have been since Season 1.

The Territory format for V2 actually can support clans pretty well, in a couple of ways. First way would be to get clans set up before V2 starts and assign them different starting sectors within the faction. With that, you could have some inter-faction battling for territory (which would fit with some of several of the canonical Decepticon personalities and subgroups, constantly jockying for possition) as well as extra-faction battling for control of the planet. It adds another layer of depth. The easiest way is simply for the clans to fill up missions. There are a lot of people I would rather have for backup then others. Not all are in the RDD/DSA.

As for elitistism... It's gonna happen anyway. It's not a matter of clans, it's a matter of anything being ranked. You have "regulars" which is already a elitist tag. You have the post counts that give you a ranking on the boards, making the heaviest posters look elite to the newbies. You have the higher level/ranked players, characters, and teams, those are elite. You are one of the elite players, as is Windy and GP. Hell, you could probably consider anyone in the top onehundred elite, doesn't that make them look like elitest to newbies?

Another point about that... Clans don't make elitism, people and their attitudes make elitism.

I don't know how people are thinking, but in my eyes, "decepticlone"-ing in HMW is simply not worth it. If you just copy-paste configs, it takes away a lot of fun from the game.
I'm part of the RDD, but there are no "superior configs" we can share (since there are no superior configs at all in HMW, if you want to enjoy the game, you make experiments.), we just give others advices, and have fun, no more.


I will be happy, if there won't be just two subfactions, but a bunch of them, on each side. Clans only give HMW an extra "fun factor", not taking it.

Caelus wrote:And how about ways to liven up the faction subforums? So far they seem to be going relatively unused.

If the autobots don't use their forums, their problem. The decepticon forum is in use.

Grimlock86 wrote:

Caelus wrote:And how about ways to liven up the faction subforums? So far they seem to be going relatively unused.

If the autobots don't use their forums, their problem. The decepticon forum is in use.

I think Caelus can see the 'con forum too, and though people do use it, it doesn't get the activity of the other forums, even the "clan" sites. Part of the problem is lack of exposure; the only way to access the site is through the main Forum in the tool bar under the site headline. I can understand why the drop-down menu doesn't have it, but why no one though to include a link in the side bar on the HMW pages is a mystery, IMHO.

Dreadwind wrote:I disagree. WoW is the same set up, you're either Horde or Alliance, but there are still clans inside that. Yes, WoW is a lot larger then HWM, but your point was that in HMW, roughly half the players are on your side, so there's no point to clans. In WoW, roughly half the people are on your side as well, and there are still clans. How many times did I just say the samething? Man I'm stupid. Ok, moving on...

Yeah, it works in WoW, because like you said, the playing population is bigger. SUBSTANTIALLY bigger.

Now here's something for both sides to consider.

Some say the off site forums are good because they can kick back and "spam" and have fun.

The Mods opened up a thread for the purpose of playful banter. No one uses it.

But then we have the problem of when people do have a bit of "playful banter", Mods come along and shut it down.

So I think one of the first steps is to work out what constitutes "spam" and what constitutes "playful banter".

I find it funny that one Moderator in particular use to spam a bit with his fish cannon, now the site of a bit of banter and he slaps a lock on it whenever he bothers to be around.

Funny how people change, must have been because of his dabbling in the dark side a few years ago. (He knows what he did, despite his best efforts to silence the past)

And it's funny how before "The Great Crackdown" there was so much fun to be had and it was all playful banter and not silly pics or pyramid wars ...

Moving on ....

Something I also find odd, and this is aimed at all "clan-ers", i've seen a number of comments "well we can't have fun on Seibertron.com so we go to our own forums" ... isn't that a slap in the face to the site that allows you to actually play the game on?

Think about all that ...

I agree you on a lot of that. Not saying the slap was undeserved, since honestly, there where a lot of percieved slaps directed at players whether they where intentional or not, but it was a slap none the less. Honestly, I think clans should be allowed, and I think none should be allowed to have off site boards.

Something that could be done; make clans have to fill out a submission form as to why they should be allowed to exist. MIC I think would nail that, if it's still arround. V2 is a fresh start for everyone, it should be a fresh start for the clans too. Run it as a experiment first, set some rules governing clans, like no trolling and no flaming, and have a limit. 2 or 3 per faction and -maybe- 2 cross factions. It could work, but it would require work.

Maybe the HMW support staff should work on it.

Another thing I'd like to add, HMW needs a couple more moderators. They added Caelus, and that's a start, but there needs to moderators specific to this forum, perferably who aren't all on at the same time, so there can be moderators on to handle issues as they come up, not a few hours later.

Thunderscream wrote:

Grimlock86 wrote:

Caelus wrote:And how about ways to liven up the faction subforums? So far they seem to be going relatively unused.

If the autobots don't use their forums, their problem. The decepticon forum is in use.

I think Caelus can see the 'con forum too.

I can but I don't - it seems unethical. I leave it to Mkall.


Anyway, I see a lot of agreement on the easier access/more prominent links to the faction forums, so I'll try to pitch that to OS when he gets back (Or go ahead and pm it to him now before I forget).

Something else I'm getting a general feel for (especially from Burn) is that there needs to be more clearcut guidelines on acceptable behavior. That's going to be a tricky to solve as decisions to lock spammed/flamed threads etc. are pretty subjective. I mean, there are so many factors to consider, and I'm not sure you can really build a precise guideline for that sort of thingg.

Obviously, we need to make it clear that RDD/AWC posters, and regular posters, are being treated equally. This is also a tricky issue because:
A) It's so easy for someone to see themselves as being treated unfairly.
B) Cohesive groups can be very defensive of their own members, leading them to be outraged if one of 'their own' gets in trouble.

I don't know how to solve this problem though. AFAIK, the individual subfactions have already established codes of conduct governing their members not only on their boards, but also this one. I know at least that this is the case with the AWC, and their regs are more or less identical to Seibertron's.

In a perfect world then, the moderators and the clan-heads would effectively be working together to make sure things run smoothly, and convey to the players and subfaction members that favoritism and discrimination aren't an issue.



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Additionally, my current personal stance is that the staff should neither encourage nor discourage the creation of fan-led clans. I see it as beyond our control. I don't think that the creation of any official subfactions would prevent it. That means I think its just something we need to assume will happen, and focus on how we deal with it here on the boards.
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Caelus wrote:Something else I'm getting a general feel for (especially from Burn) is that there needs to be more clearcut guidelines on acceptable behavior. That's going to be a tricky to solve as decisions to lock spammed/flamed threads etc. are pretty subjective. I mean, there are so many factors to consider, and I'm not sure you can really build a precise guideline for that sort of thingg.

Flaming is flaming, that one's pretty easy.

But the difference between playful banter and full on pointless spam, well that varies from person to person.

We were given the Social Club thread to use for general chit chat, however it hasn't really been used and I think that we, as players, have been given the opportunity to demonstrate what is playful banter and haven't really taken that opportunity.

So if people WANT to have fun on these forums then we SHOULD have fun on these forums, we've been given a chance, let's prove to those in charge that a bit of harmless playful banter isn't as bad as they think it is.

There is one paradox I'd like to point out, for consideration -

Subfaction Player 1 - I like the RDD/AWC board b/c we can shoot the breeze and not worry about spamming...

Subfaction Player 2 - I like the RDD/AWC board b/c we can work on seriously examining game mechanics issues without losing our work in the spam...

These are both arguments I've heard. Now, I assume the catch here is that the spamming goes on in the subfaction's equivalent of Seibertron's General Discussion Forum, while the technical study is done in the equivalent of HMWGD.

So, the default response would be, "well, if they want to talk about nongame stuff, they should do it on Seibertron's GD", but, that's clearly not what a large portion of the players want.

- forgot where I was going with this -

Coming back to relevant train of thought, perhaps instead of locking technical threads when they drown in spam, the moderators should just remove spam posts from those threads?

That would make life less frustrating for those trying to discuss serious stuff, but I'm afraid that some posters might take advantage of that and stick the mods with having to shovel $4!7 all day.



Burn -

Flaming is a pretty easy one to define. It's just when you've got all the subfactions going it's hard to reprimand one person without stepping on six hundred toes. It's like assassinating Archduke Ferdinand.

And I agree, I think this would be an excellent time for posters to try and show some savvy and class in their posting habits. Unfortunately there are quite a few pwople that will always take advantage of the subjectivity of the definition, and... well, on our end, it's really hard to swat the fly without slapping the horse.

...

If anyone's wondering, my approach to problem solving tends to be to just throw out thoughts as they come to mind and then listen to the responses.

Well spoken Caelus, I can see why they made you a mod. However, I have some simple solutions to the problems.

On most sites, mods end up shoveling through spam posts on threads they don't belong on. Simple solution, first offense, warn. Second offense, ban them for a short wile, hours to a day. 3rd, longer ban. IF they haven't learned by then, perma ban. People will get pissed, but oh well. Ultimately, you build a stronger community.

Now, I'm not saying "No spam at all!" There should be places that allow it. Like it or not, HMW is a subcommunity on Seibertron, and should be treated as such. Not everyone wants to have to run to another forum on seibs to talk about something not game related, which is the major draw for the off site boards. A lot of people want to talk to the people they are familure with, without people they don't know butting in and at best, interupting a conversation, at worst, causing a arguement. I liked using the RDD/DSA/Pax forums to say "Hey, I just got this TF! It's sweet!" because I am familure with the people on those boards, and I don't really want 90 people I've never heard of to go "Oh, that's nice." I'd rather have people I've talked to before tell me to shove off. And I don't really want to compete with the other 90 threads announcing what they just got. People also want to be able to spam without having to worry about interupting a conversation on a thread, or having their post they'd like a responce to burried by the other 90 spam posts on that thread.

Now, I'm also not saying we should be allowed to spam up a forum, but there's gotta be a happy medium between the two, where we can get the clans back, allow some OT conversations, and have some rules that get enforced.

Caelus wrote:Coming back to relevant train of thought, perhaps instead of locking technical threads when they drown in spam, the moderators should just remove spam posts from those threads?

But do they drown in spam? Most technical discussions i've seen have been technical, some have resulted in a bit of flaming but for the most part the spam seems to already stay out of the technical things.

Like if someone creates a thread in the appropriate faction forum like "Hey, i've been toying around this this weapon and found it does this etc etc" I like to think, and have faith, that people would contribute to it as a technical thread, and leave the "spam" to the general threads like the "Social Club" and the faction equivelants.

But if the Mods want to go through and remove un-necessary posts ... do you really want to increase a Mods work load like that?

Flaming is a pretty easy one to define. It's just when you've got all the subfactions going it's hard to reprimand one person without stepping on six hundred toes. It's like assassinating Archduke Ferdinand.

But if one person flames another, what does that have to do with sub-factions?

There may be the scenario when sub-faction player 1 says to sub-faction player 2 that their sub-faction sucks and launch into a huge tirade, but that's just one person and aren't people reprimanded on their own individual comments?

Dreadwind wrote:Not everyone wants to have to run to another forum on seibs to talk about something not game related, which is the major draw for the off site boards. A lot of people want to talk to the people they are familure with, without people they don't know butting in and at best, interupting a conversation, at worst, causing a arguement. I liked using the RDD/DSA/Pax forums to say "Hey, I just got this TF! It's sweet!" because I am familure with the people on those boards, and I don't really want 90 people I've never heard of to go "Oh, that's nice." I'd rather have people I've talked to before tell me to shove off.

This I understand because I feel the same way. While I have no trouble going to the other forums here on Seibertron, I don't tend to join in many discussions about toys/comics/cartoons (admittedly i've been active in the movie forum) for the simple reason, the discussions don't really go anywhere or I don't know the people well enough to know what their collection is like.

I find it so much easier to connect with a person about TF's if you know what their collection is like. Just in the last week I found out Goribus and I have a shared liking for Omnibots!

Who knows, perhaps if people are willing to "step out" a bit more their friends will follow suit and they'll still have that close knit group of friends to discuss things with but also have others join in who might be able to offer a different insight into a toy, or a comic, or whatever.


-edit-
I really should do some actual work.

My mind's about as stable as a pack of dynamite right now so won't answer most points but on flaming: it's up to us to shut up and leave when things heat up. We all should know better than to start insulting or egg flamers on.

Burn wrote:

Caelus wrote:Coming back to relevant train of thought, perhaps instead of locking technical threads when they drown in spam, the moderators should just remove spam posts from those threads?

But do they drown in spam? Most technical discussions i've seen have been technical, some have resulted in a bit of flaming but for the most part the spam seems to already stay out of the technical things.

Like if someone creates a thread in the appropriate faction forum like "Hey, i've been toying around this this weapon and found it does this etc etc" I like to think, and have faith, that people would contribute to it as a technical thread, and leave the "spam" to the general threads like the "Social Club" and the faction equivelants.

But if the Mods want to go through and remove un-necessary posts ... do you really want to increase a Mods work load like that?

Honestly, on all the tech threads I've looked at on the RDD/DSA boards, I've actually never seen them spammed. The conversation is on topic.

Flaming is a pretty easy one to define. It's just when you've got all the subfactions going it's hard to reprimand one person without stepping on six hundred toes. It's like assassinating Archduke Ferdinand.

But if one person flames another, what does that have to do with sub-factions?

There may be the scenario when sub-faction player 1 says to sub-faction player 2 that their sub-faction sucks and launch into a huge tirade, but that's just one person and aren't people reprimanded on their own individual comments?

That's actually what I was trying to get at before. Blame the individual, not the clan when half of them probably wheren't involved. If the clans do get involved, talk to the clan head in a civil manner (not saying people don't.. but the impression was always given that the mods didn't take a civil tone when talking to the groups) and let him know it's not acceptable, and if they want to keep the clan arround, then they need to police their members better.

It sounds simple, and it should be.

Dreadwind wrote:Not everyone wants to have to run to another forum on seibs to talk about something not game related, which is the major draw for the off site boards. A lot of people want to talk to the people they are familure with, without people they don't know butting in and at best, interupting a conversation, at worst, causing a arguement. I liked using the RDD/DSA/Pax forums to say "Hey, I just got this TF! It's sweet!" because I am familure with the people on those boards, and I don't really want 90 people I've never heard of to go "Oh, that's nice." I'd rather have people I've talked to before tell me to shove off.

This I understand because I feel the same way. While I have no trouble going to the other forums here on Seibertron, I don't tend to join in many discussions about toys/comics/cartoons (admittedly i've been active in the movie forum) for the simple reason, the discussions don't really go anywhere or I don't know the people well enough to know what their collection is like.

I find it so much easier to connect with a person about TF's if you know what their collection is like. Just in the last week I found out Goribus and I have a shared liking for Omnibots!

Who knows, perhaps if people are willing to "step out" a bit more their friends will follow suit and they'll still have that close knit group of friends to discuss things with but also have others join in who might be able to offer a different insight into a toy, or a comic, or whatever.


-edit-
I really should do some actual work.

Now, the real reason I responded... The Omnibots rock! I just wish I could afford/find one...

See, I go to Botcon and miss the fun.

It's late, I'm too tired to think. But just to get run over soem more, the AWC, i suspect the RDD, and possibly the many others I'm not familliar with, are more than willing to open up tio anyone of the faction. The biggest issue is that we physically cannopt get the word to every player. Then we gain this "click" (SP?) apperence, and can't do anything about about it because of reputation. We get in a cycle, and poof.

Now, I don't know the previous blood, so I stop there. But I think that perhaps a chance to clear this up, not just with mods (Though that IS first), but the rest of the board.
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One other benifit of AWC, bny being small now, alot of us are getting a vchance to learn ettiqutte. Especially as leaders. so here's my somewhat untested definition for spam

Spam: a post or posts put up to
A)Boost post count (Not real common, but it happens. Mostly by immature peoples.

B)Force a thread to be closed. (Things that run theor course, but become breading ground for junk instead of letting it slip to another page.

C)derail a thread, or force it to a new topic (By this, I don't mean we talk about A, discuss topic B because a similarity comes up, and wind up on Topic L by week's end. By this, I mean, So and So says stop flaming, and then we

D) Flaming

bleach. Yeah, thta's how tired I are

You forgot trolling, which is intentionally posting something that while not outright flaming, is intended to cause people to flame you in response.

flashwave is right, the RDD is willing to open up. I as scout can verify that

Caelus wrote:There is one paradox I'd like to point out, for consideration -

Subfaction Player 1 - I like the RDD/AWC board b/c we can shoot the breeze and not worry about spamming...

Subfaction Player 2 - I like the RDD/AWC board b/c we can work on seriously examining game mechanics issues without losing our work in the spam...

These are both arguments I've heard. Now, I assume the catch here is that the spamming goes on in the subfaction's equivalent of Seibertron's General Discussion Forum, while the technical study is done in the equivalent of HMWGD.

So, the default response would be, "well, if they want to talk about nongame stuff, they should do it on Seibertron's GD", but, that's clearly not what a large portion of the players want.

- forgot where I was going with this -

Coming back to relevant train of thought, perhaps instead of locking technical threads when they drown in spam, the moderators should just remove spam posts from those threads?

If anyone's wondering, my approach to problem solving tends to be to just throw out thoughts as they come to mind and then listen to the responses.

This may sound odd, but I moderate another forum elsewhere, and from what I see it uses the same set-up as here. Now over there there's an option to split any and all posts from a thread into a new thread. Rather than locking threads when they get vastly derailed, why not turn them into two threads?
And that's not a bad approach. Us Irish have a saying about flinging **** at a wall. Throw enough, and some of it's going to stick.
As for your 'paradox' of players liking spam but liking serious posts - they aren't really a mutually exclusive thing. I think we all know by now my policy on spam, but I'm quite happy to let it all hang out and talk technical issues over when I want to gain or share an insight into the game. But sometimes it seems hard to do both here - lean towards one, you're left alone - but sometimes too alone. Lean towards the other, you get a little too much attention, if you get me. There needs to be a little more tolerance towards a mix, rather than calling down the lock on anything getting a little derailed.

Jesus Prime wrote:

Caelus wrote:There is one paradox I'd like to point out, for consideration -

Subfaction Player 1 - I like the RDD/AWC board b/c we can shoot the breeze and not worry about spamming...

Subfaction Player 2 - I like the RDD/AWC board b/c we can work on seriously examining game mechanics issues without losing our work in the spam...

These are both arguments I've heard. Now, I assume the catch here is that the spamming goes on in the subfaction's equivalent of Seibertron's General Discussion Forum, while the technical study is done in the equivalent of HMWGD.

So, the default response would be, "well, if they want to talk about nongame stuff, they should do it on Seibertron's GD", but, that's clearly not what a large portion of the players want.

- forgot where I was going with this -

Coming back to relevant train of thought, perhaps instead of locking technical threads when they drown in spam, the moderators should just remove spam posts from those threads?

If anyone's wondering, my approach to problem solving tends to be to just throw out thoughts as they come to mind and then listen to the responses.

This may sound odd, but I moderate another forum elsewhere, and from what I see it uses the same set-up as here. Now over there there's an option to split any and all posts from a thread into a new thread. Rather than locking threads when they get vastly derailed, why not turn them into two threads?
And that's not a bad approach. Us Irish have a saying about flinging **** at a wall. Throw enough, and some of it's going to stick.
As for your 'paradox' of players liking spam but liking serious posts - they aren't really a mutually exclusive thing. I think we all know by now my policy on spam, but I'm quite happy to let it all hang out and talk technical issues over when I want to gain or share an insight into the game. But sometimes it seems hard to do both here - lean towards one, you're left alone - but sometimes too alone. Lean towards the other, you get a little too much attention, if you get me. There needs to be a little more tolerance towards a mix, rather than calling down the lock on anything getting a little derailed.

Have't they tried that? I seem to be remembering threads being split, but not neccecarily the people.

trimming off the "junk" posts, or splitting them, has worked for me in a couple of the AWC threads, but it's still muchos smaller than the boards here. And some of the newer players may not get it, and then it gets to be a pest for the mods, and then we have bookos extra threads when they're done.

Trolling? nwever heard of it. There's actually something I was going to post last night along thatline, that I'd heard from a Botcon goer. But decided against it due to uncertain sources. thanks though

Caelus wrote:
Subfaction Player 2 - I like the RDD/AWC board b/c we can work on seriously examining game mechanics issues without losing our work in the spam

off on a tangent here, being one of a technical leaning i don't really mind the spam, it's better than obscurity, pretty much ALL the RDD's collective game research is available in in a thread on the Con forum, and has been since about a day after the con forum opened, however the only peeps who seem to actually post in the the thread are all already members of the RDD.

it's like none of the non-clanners even want to know...

Burn wrote:Something I also find odd, and this is aimed at all "clan-ers", i've seen a number of comments "well we can't have fun on Seibertron.com so we go to our own forums" ... isn't that a slap in the face to the site that allows you to actually play the game on?

For some odd reason we got the impression we weren't welcome, I wonder what gave us that idea?

Tammuz wrote:For some odd reason we got the impression we weren't welcome, I wonder what gave us that idea?

Yes well ... when the opinion from the Mods seems to change on a daily basis ...

Burn wrote:

Tammuz wrote:For some odd reason we got the impression we weren't welcome, I wonder what gave us that idea?

Yes well ... when the opinion from the Mods seems to change on a daily basis ...

i think it's more to do with which mod you ask.

Tammuz wrote:

Burn wrote:

Tammuz wrote:For some odd reason we got the impression we weren't welcome, I wonder what gave us that idea?

Yes well ... when the opinion from the Mods seems to change on a daily basis ...

i think it's more to do with which mod you ask.

I know which one not to ask.