The Energon Pub

News Credits: 3 · by **DISCHARGE** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 10:31 am

So would the repairer only repair? What happens when they attack? is the repair tool used for that too? Do they have the option of dual wielding? Like one weapon and one tool.

by **Pariah** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 11:05 am

I think thats genius RiD. And the way i see it working is that people can repair without a tool, but the tool improves their ability. Also, they are only allowed to weild a tool or a weapon, sort of a trade off styleee thingy. They can still deal damage with physical attacks and the tool only affects matters when a repair is performed. Or something.

Sorry! not trying to hijack your idea, i just got excited

Bloody good thinking though (yours not mine lol)

by **RobotInDisguise** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:06 pm

Pariah wrote:I think thats genius RiD. And the way i see it working is that people can repair without a tool, but the tool improves their ability. Also, they are only allowed to weild a tool or a weapon, sort of a trade off styleee thingy. They can still deal damage with physical attacks and the tool only affects matters when a repair is performed. Or something.

Sorry! not trying to hijack your idea, i just got excited

Bloody good thinking though (yours not mine lol)

Thanks and you're not hijacking. In fact, I appreciate you improving upon it, as the first post was very rough. I mean I was up right before classes started and nowhere near even half awake when I wrote it. Yeah, it'd be exactly like attacking, with going toolless being the equivalent of nuke knuckling.

As for the attacks, it'll be nuke knuckles since the tool would replace the weapon but not do any damage. I dunno, there are still alot of details to be worked out and thus alot of possibilities.

by **Thanatos Prime** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:22 pm

RobotInDisguise wrote:
Pariah wrote:I think thats genius RiD. And the way i see it working is that people can repair without a tool, but the tool improves their ability. Also, they are only allowed to weild a tool or a weapon, sort of a trade off styleee thingy. They can still deal damage with physical attacks and the tool only affects matters when a repair is performed. Or something.

Sorry! not trying to hijack your idea, i just got excited

Bloody good thinking though (yours not mine lol)

Thanks and you're not hijacking. In fact, I appreciate you improving upon it, as the first post was very rough. I mean I was up right before classes started and nowhere near even half awake when I wrote it. Yeah, it'd be exactly like attacking, with going toolless being the equivalent of nuke knuckling.

As for the attacks, it'll be nuke knuckles since the tool would replace the weapon but not do any damage. I dunno, there are still alot of details to be worked out and thus alot of possibilities.

One of the finest ideas I've heard in a while. The possibilities are vast and it would give one more diemension to the game.

On another note, I think self-repair should be possible but there is no xp payout for a self-repair only increased health. And to make it more realistic, self-repair wouldn't work below 33 or 25%, somewhat like putting a band-aid on your severed arm, there's no point.

News Credits: 1 · by **Redimus** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 4:14 pm

DISCHARGE wrote:So would the repairer only repair? What happens when they attack? is the repair tool used for that too? Do they have the option of dual wielding? Like one weapon and one tool.

I dont think it'd work if you had to only have a tool or a weapon, I'd asume you'd get a second dropdown box like the weapons one for tools.

Id also imagine it would be a feature that'd take more than a couple of mins to implement unfortunetly, it would probably require a lot or rewriting of existing code to do with the tactic and/or the rng.

Still, fantastic idea in prenciple.

News Credits: 226 · by **Burn** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 4:23 pm

Certain medical instruments CAN be used as weapons, though a laser scalpel would obviously not do as much damage as a super-uber-mega-disintegration ray.

I've always seen medics as a bit of a trade off. You create them and send them out knowing they're not there to fight but to patch up. They have a little bit of offensive inclination but their primary desire is to repair.

So why not have a equipable weapon that repairs instead of attacks? Have it unlockable with intell (instead of FP/SK), give it a recharge time so that the medic can opt to use punch/kick/ram/strafe to attack or transform to repair.

Won't be a five min job to implement like Redimus said, but something that can be considered for when weapons are re-written.

News Credits: 1 · by **Redimus** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 4:55 pm

Burn wrote:So why not have a equipable weapon that repairs instead of attacks? Have it unlockable with intell (instead of FP/SK), give it a recharge time so that the medic can opt to use punch/kick/ram/strafe to attack or transform to repair.

My only problem with that would be the fact that as repair currently stands, it would be TOO much of a trade off. Repair is no where near good enough in its current form to allow a tf to go in virtully weaponless, it;d result in tfs that earn far too little xp, which in turn would mean Glyph would have spent a lot of time implementing something no one would wanna use.

Of course the one flaw in that argument, is that if tools were implemented, then to a certian extent repaire would be improoved. It all depends on how much the tools improove the tactic.

Bare in mind, in the real world, medics carry guns too. Medic or no, I wouldnt wanna be scurrying on the battlefield without SOME form of weapon. Maybe there could be some kind of limitaion to the power of weapon a medic could carry (ie, you're not gonna get a medic with a bazooka).

News Credits: 226 · by **Burn** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 5:24 pm

Redimus wrote:[color=red]My only problem with that would be the fact that as repair currently stands, it would be TOO much of a trade off. Repair is no where near good enough in its current form to allow a tf to go in virtully weaponless, it;d result in tfs that earn far too little xp, which in turn would mean Glyph would have spent a lot of time implementing something no one would wanna use.

Thing is though, what is it that makes YOU (yeah i'm singling you out here Redimus, i'll explain why though) believe repair is currently no where near good enough?

The reason I ask is because it's been brought up in the past that the current repair system works great, it's just our perceptions of what we expect from it.

Most of us believe that if ram and strafe can do up to and past 50% damage in one move, why then can't repair do 50%+ as well. Considering it's rare for repair to go past 30%.

Of course the one flaw in that argument, is that if tools were implemented, then to a certian extent repaire would be improoved. It all depends on how much the tools improove the tactic.

Well it won't improve the tactic, but it will increase the chances of a repair function being used. Whether it be by transformation or by what's in their hand.

Bare in mind, in the real world, medics carry guns too. Medic or no, I wouldnt wanna be scurrying on the battlefield without SOME form of weapon. Maybe there could be some kind of limitaion to the power of weapon a medic could carry (ie, you're not gonna get a medic with a bazooka).

A second weapon slot may be the way to go. It would also work well for non-repair tactic alts.

A tank for example, you need intell to unlock strafe. If they're using intell they'll also have access to repair tools.

Pop a bazooka in one hand, a scalpel in the other, and you've got a bazooka wielding ramming strafe tank that can do field repairs. Of course the chances of him repairing will be low as the bot will more than like ram, strafe, punch/kick or bazooka more often than not.

News Credits: 1 · by **Redimus** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 5:53 pm

Burn wrote:Thing is though, what is it that makes YOU (yeah i'm singling you out here Redimus, i'll explain why though) believe repair is currently no where near good enough?

Not particularly for the reson you sujested. Im not too bothered how much they fix, im bothered about how much xp they gain for it. Simple fact is, at the moment, although it is of course possible, repair is one of the more difficult tactics to earn good xp out of. It can be done, but it's very hit n miss.

Burn wrote:A second weapon slot may be the way to go. It would also work well for non-repair tactic alts.

A tank for example, you need intell to unlock strafe. If they're using intell they'll also have access to repair tools.

Pop a bazooka in one hand, a scalpel in the other, and you've got a bazooka wielding ramming strafe tank that can do field repairs. Of course the chances of him repairing will be low as the bot will more than like ram, strafe, punch/kick or bazooka more often than not.

This would be my personel fav method. It would also open the door for equiping you charecter with short range and long range weapons, or a projectile and none projectile weapon.

News Credits: 226 · by **Burn** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 6:50 pm

Redimus wrote:Not particularly for the reson you sujested. Im not too bothered how much they fix, im bothered about how much xp they gain for it. Simple fact is, at the moment, although it is of course possible, repair is one of the more difficult tactics to earn good xp out of. It can be done, but it's very hit n miss.

100% agree with all of that. Even at higher levels it's hard to make a working medic that rakes in as much as your other non-medics.

One other thing I just thought of, and this goes waaaay back to an idea I tossed around about second weapon slots.

The second weapon slot should be the weapon that influences your primary tactic.

So for a strafer, the bigger the gun, the bigger the strafe.

For a medic, the finer the scalpel, the better the repair job.

Essentially ...

Weapon slot 1 - Accessible in all robot modes, only accessible as second tactic alt mode.
Weapon slot 2 - Accessible in robot mode but weapon slot 1 takes preference in attacks, only accessible as primary tactic alt mode.

If that makes sense ....

News Credits: 1 · by **Redimus** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 6:54 pm

Burn wrote:
Redimus wrote:Not particularly for the reson you sujested. Im not too bothered how much they fix, im bothered about how much xp they gain for it. Simple fact is, at the moment, although it is of course possible, repair is one of the more difficult tactics to earn good xp out of. It can be done, but it's very hit n miss.

100% agree with all of that. Even at higher levels it's hard to make a working medic that rakes in as much as your other non-medics.

One other thing I just thought of, and this goes waaaay back to an idea I tossed around about second weapon slots.

The second weapon slot should be the weapon that influences your primary tactic.

So for a strafer, the bigger the gun, the bigger the strafe.

For a medic, the finer the scalpel, the better the repair job.

Essentially ...

Weapon slot 1 - Accessible in all robot modes, only accessible as second tactic alt mode.
Weapon slot 2 - Accessible in robot mode but weapon slot 1 takes preference in attacks, only accessible as primary tactic alt mode.

If that makes sense ....

Yup, I pretty much agree with that too...

man im having a weird night tonight...

News Credits: 226 · by **Burn** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:33 pm

Redimus wrote:man im having a weird night tonight...

... why do people always say that when they agree with me on something?

News Credits: 1 · by **Redimus** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:46 pm

Burn wrote:
Redimus wrote:man im having a weird night tonight...

... why do people always say that when they agree with me on something?

If it makes you feel any better, you're not the only reason for my weird night, not by a loooong shot.

by **RobotInDisguise** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:56 pm

Burn wrote:
Redimus wrote:man im having a weird night tonight...

... why do people always say that when they agree with me on something?

I agree with you and I don't feel weird tonight.

Methinks me like these improvements. A second slot would be nice for all tactics.

News Credits: 226 · by **Burn** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 6:18 am

Hey look Redimus!

A working Medic! :grin:

And if ya want more proof.

His previous mission! :grin:

Now if only I could get him to do that regulary. Those two missions = about two days work normally.

by **Pariah** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:43 am

I like this idea.

Maybe have the tool function as a weapon, but with less damage than an equivalent "pure" weapon like Burn said? I dunno. Sounds good from a useability point of view. Fact.

I'm late for work. Fact plus two

News Credits: 1 · by **Redimus** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:58 pm

Burn wrote:Hey look Redimus!

A working Medic!

And if ya want more proof.

His previous mission!

Now if only I could get him to do that regulary. Those two missions = about two days work normally.

Yeah, the medic underneath yours in the first mission didnt do badly either.

by **Tammuz** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:17 am

Skimmed the last 3 pages, so i probably missed some majorely important point but....

is anything actually wrong with repair? i mean yeah it's crap for low levels but it's coding is just the reverse of the Ram coding without the stun bit. if repair in of itself id broken then so too is ram

no, i think the only problem with repair is that its feeder stat doesn't contribute to non tactic performance, ram and avoid's feeders both have multiple roles other boosting the tactic. if any tactic needs recoding it's strafe, as it's self boosting.

as for the repair weapons, i don't think they'll get in, i had a chat with one of the support staff, and apparently they've been discussed and dismissed.

News Credits: 226 · by **Burn** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:35 am

Tammuz wrote:as for the repair weapons, i don't think they'll get in, i had a chat with one of the support staff, and apparently they've been discussed and dismissed.

Must have been a secret meeting because I don't remember being consulted on them.

by **Tammuz** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:49 am

i must be imagining that then i swear you told me that littel tidbit....

News Credits: 226 · by **Burn** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:58 am

I really don't recall them being discussed, but I think part of my memory was wiped out with the forum. :sad:

Like steve2275 on Facebook · by **steve2275** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:12 am

Burn wrote:Hey look Redimus!

A working Medic!

And if ya want more proof.

His previous mission!

Now if only I could get him to do that regulary. Those two missions = about two days work normally.

i feel that same way about reds avoiding :oops:

News Credits: 33 · by **Glyph** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 4:19 pm

RiD, I really, really like the idea of equippable tools boosting your Repair performance. I've had vaguely similar ideas floating around in my head for a while without having properly coalesced into a workable plan, but you've put your finger right on it.

I don't recall ever discussing the idea of repair tools before, and certainly not discarding the idea, although a second weapon slot has been mooted. It's something I've had on the to-do list for ages, partly because it's a big change and partly because I haven't firmly decided how to do it yet. I'd like to use something similar to the WH40K system of one- and two-handed weapons, I think - for anyone not familiar, a character could equip two single-handed weapons or one double-handed weapon and one single-handed weapon, but not two double-handed weapons. For example, you could have a vibro-axe (a two-handed weapon - it's the thing the disguised Lando carries in Return of the Jedi) plus a pistol of some kind, a sword and sidearm, two swords, a gunslinger's brace of pistols, and so on.

In addition, I think I'd like to include a limited number of equipment 'slots' per character, with each piece of equipment carried taking up a specified number of slots. For example, say you had 5 equipment slots - that might let you carry a medi-pack (3 slots) plus two grenades (one slot each). (All numbers plucked out of the air at this point.)

The bad news is that this is a major departure from the way the game currently works and would therefore require a huge amount of recoding. The good news is that it is, in principle, entirely compatible with the modular approach I'm taking with the V2 code (this is not accidental).

News Credits: 1 · by **Kaijubot** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 4:26 pm

First of all, welcome back Glyph. :grin:

'tis good to see you're feeling well enough to post.

Secondly, I think that the slot system is a great idea.

by **Kalon** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 4:27 pm

Glyph wrote:RiD, I really, really like the idea of equippable tools boosting your Repair performance. I've had vaguely similar ideas floating around in my head for a while without having properly coalesced into a workable plan, but you've put your finger right on it.

I don't recall ever discussing the idea of repair tools before, and certainly not discarding the idea, although a second weapon slot has been mooted. It's something I've had on the to-do list for ages, partly because it's a big change and partly because I haven't firmly decided how to do it yet. I'd like to use something similar to the WH40K system of one- and two-handed weapons, I think - for anyone not familiar, a character could equip two single-handed weapons or one double-handed weapon and one single-handed weapon, but not two double-handed weapons. For example, you could have a vibro-axe (a two-handed weapon - it's the thing the disguised Lando carries in Return of the Jedi) plus a pistol of some kind, a sword and sidearm, two swords, a gunslinger's brace of pistols, and so on.

In addition, I think I'd like to include a limited number of equipment 'slots' per character, with each piece of equipment carried taking up a specified number of slots. For example, say you had 5 equipment slots - that might let you carry a medi-pack (3 slots) plus two grenades (one slot each). (All numbers plucked out of the air at this point.)

The bad news is that this is a major departure from the way the game currently works and would therefore require a huge amount of recoding. The good news is that it is, in principle, entirely compatible with the modular approach I'm taking with the V2 code (this is not accidental).

Wow... that would really change alot of how the game is played, for the better too! Med-packs and grenades... joy.