The Energon Pub

by **Uniprimus** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:29 pm

Ok, we all know in the Multiverse, most of the Transformer's origins come from Primus, who exists in most Uuniverses at once, and Unicron, who exists in one universe at a time. In the Movieverse, The Allspark is their Origin. In RID, I would guess that it is the Primus/Unicron explanation as well. So, the one continuity that leaves me chasing my tail endlessly like a retarded hound: G1. Yes, you guessed it. Have a cookie. If Unicron is the ight god, in all the continuities he's in, then how if he a machine in G1 created by a gangly little monkey fish? Plus, if he is there, doesn't that mean Primus must have existed in it? It just doesn't make sense. Then there is the MUCH added confusion in BW, when they actually REFERENCE PRIMUS. WTF? Then, in Universe, we see Alpha Trion TAKING TO PRIMUS IN THE HEART OF CYBERTRON. We then see Vector Prime, gaurdian against Unicron, in BW, part of G1, healing Prime. I need some fraking help. If no one can, help me make up an explanation for this. :sad:

by **ThunderThruster** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:35 pm

yeah, G1 is gull of contradiction, gotta love it! as far as 'primacron' having created unicron, i just ignore it and consider it a 'what if...' story line.
as for primus, according to some of the other continuities, is supposed to have retreated to the very depths of his conciousness to hide from unicron, if so, maybe when unicron attacks in TF:TM he hasnt had the proper time to reassert his conciousness to be able to battle him!

News Credits: 2 · by **Tekka** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:39 pm

Just because they are often paired together doesn't mean one cannot exist without the other in a given continuity. I'm perfectly happy for Unicron to be the ultimate creation of someone who was arrogant enough to build something so powerful and clever that it turned on it's weakling creator and decided to live by it's own rules, rather than some evil god of destruction. Both are good back stories.

And the larger series spanning continuity is a mess... there is no point trying to justify every plot point because it will only get messed up again later.

by **Uniprimus** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:42 pm

Yeah, but if Primacron built him, isn't it a bit of a coincidece he built it to look like 90% of the God Unicron, act like 90$ of the God Unicron, and name him 100% the same as God Unicron?

News Credits: 2 · by **Tekka** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:45 pm

When you're that powerful, it wouldn't be unreasonable to develop a god complex. Smaller transformers have done so.

As far as the appearance goes, remember they never had any of this god stuff in mind, he was just a big evil planet eating robot. His appearance has remained similar simply because he looks good like that.

by **ThunderThruster** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:46 pm

as i said, i prefer to ignore the primacron plot line!

News Credits: 2 · by **Tekka** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:47 pm

Okay.

by **Uniprimus** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:57 pm

ThunderThruster wrote:as i said, i prefer to ignore the primacron plot line!

So then what would your explanation be for everthing else, then?

News Credits: 1 · by **sto_vo_kor_2000** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:03 am

What is it that you want?????A real world explanation or a in story explanation??????? The real world one is that when Unicron was made up back in 1985 for the cartoon movie and show ,there was no GOD connection.He was just a giant planet eating robot.....that they later decided [1986]was created by a alien called Primacon again no god connection.The Transformers were created as merchandice by the Quintasons so that they could seel them to other planets for money....so no Primus.It wasnt till 1991 that in the Marvel G1 comic book that they decided to day that both Unicron were brother Lord's of light and darkness [GODS] that where here before the big bang and fought till the Univers that exsisted before this one was destroyed and then this one was born.Primus tricked his brother into a fight on the astral plane and then into entering to meteor's in space....Unicron then learning to change his form and Primus becoming Cybertron and giving life to the Transformers.But all of that was 5 years after Unicron was first thought up.
The only reason Beast Wars mixes things up is because people like to think that it's connected to the G1 cartoon.The truth is that Beast Wars took parts [but not all] of both the G1 cartoon and the G1 Marvel commic book story lines and merged them together....in effect making a different G1 history for the Beast Wars to call there own.

News Credits: 3 · by **Stormwolf** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:30 am

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:What is it that you want?????A real world explanation or a in story explanation??????? The real world one is that when Unicron was made up back in 1985 for the cartoon movie and show ,there was no GOD connection.He was just a giant planet eating robot.....that they later decided [1986]was created by a alien called Primacon again no god connection.The Transformers were created as merchandice by the Quintasons so that they could seel them to other planets for money....so no Primus.It wasnt till 1991 that in the Marvel G1 comic book that they decided to day that both Unicron were brother Lord's of light and darkness [GODS] that where here before the big bang and fought till the Univers that exsisted before this one was destroyed and then this one was born.Primus tricked his brother into a fight on the astral plane and then into entering to meteor's in space....Unicron then learning to change his form and Primus becoming Cybertron and giving life to the Transformers.But all of that was 5 years after Unicron was first thought up.

Well actually:

1986: Unicron's first comic book appearance (Target 2006)
1988: Unicron's first confirmation of being a god (Timewars)

This was later introduced into the US Marvel comics (when Furman became the writer).

And they weren't brothers in the Marvel comics.

by **Tramp** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:47 am

According to most G1 continuities, including the Marvel continuity, as well as the DW continuitiy, and clarified in Trans Formers: The Ultimate Guide, Primus and Unicron are indeed gods initially created by "The Source" shortly after the Big Bang which created the multiverses. They are brothers, One the guardian of light and order, the other chaos and destruction personified.

News Credits: 1 · by **sto_vo_kor_2000** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:03 am

Stormwolf wrote:
sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:What is it that you want?????A real world explanation or a in story explanation??????? The real world one is that when Unicron was made up back in 1985 for the cartoon movie and show ,there was no GOD connection.He was just a giant planet eating robot.....that they later decided [1986]was created by a alien called Primacon again no god connection.The Transformers were created as merchandice by the Quintasons so that they could seel them to other planets for money....so no Primus.It wasnt till 1991 that in the Marvel G1 comic book that they decided to day that both Unicron were brother Lord's of light and darkness [GODS] that where here before the big bang and fought till the Univers that exsisted before this one was destroyed and then this one was born.Primus tricked his brother into a fight on the astral plane and then into entering to meteor's in space....Unicron then learning to change his form and Primus becoming Cybertron and giving life to the Transformers.But all of that was 5 years after Unicron was first thought up.

Well actually:

1986: Unicron's first comic book appearance (Target 2006)
1988: Unicron's first confirmation of being a god (Timewars)

This was later introduced into the US Marvel comics (when Furman became the writer).

And they weren't brothers in the Marvel comics.

I wasnt saying that Unicron's first appearance in the comic's was in 1991 just that the God connection was made then....but wasnt the comic book vision of the 86 TF movie Unicron's first appearance in a comic book.And my other was that he was created for the Movie and cartoon first.And I wasnt saying that they were brothers like people can be brothers......just that they were brother Gods like two cops or firemen....or like the Sun and the Moon are viewed as brothers in space.But thank you for the correction about Time wars....I'm not that versed on the Marvel UK G1 universe.

by **Tramp** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:16 am

According the transFormers: The Ultimate Guide, Primus and Unicron are literally twin brothers. Both created by "the Source" to observe the new universe created by the Big Bang. For some unknown reason, Unicron became obsessed with destroing all of creation. He became a force of pure destruction and chaos.

News Credits: 1 · by **sto_vo_kor_2000** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:53 am

Tramp wrote:According the transFormers: The Ultimate Guide, Primus and Unicron are literally twin brothers. Both created by "the Source" to observe the new universe created by the Big Bang. For some unknown reason, Unicron became obsessed with destroing all of creation. He became a force of pure destruction and chaos.

I bought that book as well but the problem is that some of the stuff in The Ultimate Guide contradick's other knowen facts of Transformers history.The way I see it that book is just an other lose screw.
As the story was first told in the Marvel U.S. G1 .......the first clash between Unicron and Primus came when Unicron succeeded in his plan of destroying the universe that was here before this one.When he was done he slept,but he wasnt thorough. A few tiny fragment's of the universe remained, and reacted with each other, creating the Big Bang. The universe grew around him and when he woke up he started eating again.The living core of the universe feering destruction again created a guardian to do battle with Unicron.His name was Primus.As the battel raged on the infant universe shook and quaked and was almost snuffed out from the ferocity of their battle, Primus shifted the battle to the astral plane,but it didnt work,returning to the physical world but tricking Unicron into materializing in a metallic asteroids doing so himself.
Unicron began shaping his asteroid into a massive metal world that could transform into a giant robot.Primus chose to create a planet of himself and gave birth to a race of guardians to defend the universe, the Transformers.

by **Tramp** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:56 am

The Ultimate Guide is supposed to be the difinitive Tf history. It also explains that there are multiple "alternate realities", of which the Marvel comics and cartoons are. Each contains bits and pieces of the truth, but the Ultimate Guide gives the difinitive answer, much of which is based upon the DW books.

News Credits: 1 · by **sto_vo_kor_2000** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:02 am

Tramp wrote:The Ultimate Guide is supposed to be the difinitive Tf history. It also explains that there are multiple "alternate realities", of which the Marvel comics and cartoons are. Each contains bits and pieces of the truth, but the Ultimate Guide gives the difinitive answer, much of which is based upon the DW books.

And the second that the Dream Wave univers fell under so did the socalled "difinitive Tf history".That's the problem with Transformers as a whole.....every time it changes hands they start the whole thing over again.Look at what IDW has done with it.....Makes a lot of the DW stuff null and voide.

News Credits: 33 · by **Glyph** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:23 am

Essentially, the Primacron thing only rears its ugly head in the cartoon. Primus is a TF comics creation, and because Simon Furman (who originally wrote the prehistory in UK #150) went on to be pretty much the defining force in G1 fiction, that version won out.

The Primus history has been refined and reworked several times over the years as the G1 continuity has been alternately reviewed and rebooted.

The original concept was that Primus was a primal force of order and light, while Unicron was a primal force of darkness and chaos. To cut a long story short, their battles ended with them each trapped inside their own asteroid; Unicron shaped his prison into his planet mode and then gave himself a robot mode based on his astral form, while Primus shaped his prison into Cybertron and created the Transformers to fight against Unicron and carry on Primus' spirit after he ultimately sacrificed himself to destroy the chaos bringer.

Later, the DK guide, based on the Dreamwave reboot of G1 with its mix of comic and cartoon concepts*, introduced the 'brothers sent out by the Source' version and Unicron was expanded into something more like a pandimensional dark god, who can never be completely destroyed because he exists in all universes at once. This was also when Furman's Zodiac-based 'original 12' history, initially written as a semi-official convention exclusive and retconned into existing G1 material, was reworked as an 'original 13' - now a different cast of characters and including the Fallen, who was to be a major villain in Dreamwave's The War Within series.

*Note for those who haven't got it yet: the Dreamwave continuity is new and separate from the original G1 comic or cartoon continuities. The original two are mutually exclusive, and the Dreamwave continuity as described in the Ultimate Guide - then considered 'the official G1 continuity' by Hasbro - was a reboot and rewriting of the concept with ideas taken piecemeal from all the previous series, not a tying-together of existing threads. We're not talking Crisis here - Dreamwave's continuity wasn't a continuation of existing history with various quirks smoothed out in-mythos, but a complete 'wipe the slate clean and start again' approach. It's also no longer considered official by Hasbro, since Dreamwave went bankrupt and the Transformers license was passed to IDW instead. IDW's own reboot now holds the mantle of 'official G1 continuity', so far as I know.

The Armadaverse version of Primus and Unicron are loosely based on the G1 characters, but should not be considered the same since the 'Unicron trilogy' is a separate continuity (read: alternate reality) from the G1 version - for example, in the original concept, Primus explicitly did not have a robot mode at all. It is worth noting that Dreamwave's version of Armada / Energon (with Furman at the helm), did tie the two universes together by making them explicitly two possible universes in a single multiverse, and running some crossover with original G1 characters. Thus, in the Dreamwave Armada / Energon comics, Unicron is the same Unicron as the reworked, Ultimate-Guide-style Unicron.

So far, Primus and Unicron have not appeared in IDW's continuity (and to go by what has been said interviews, neither are likely to appear in the foreseeable future).

by **Tramp** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:26 am

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
Tramp wrote:The Ultimate Guide is supposed to be the difinitive Tf history. It also explains that there are multiple "alternate realities", of which the Marvel comics and cartoons are. Each contains bits and pieces of the truth, but the Ultimate Guide gives the difinitive answer, much of which is based upon the DW books.

And the second that the Dream Wave univers fell under so did the socalled "difinitive Tf history".That's the problem with Transformers as a whole.....every time it changes hands they start the whole thing over again.Look at what IDW has done with it.....Makes a lot of the DW stuff null and voide.

No, it doesn't. The IDW stuff is its own continuity that has absolutely nothing to do with anything previous. It's a fresh start. Ti doesn't overwrite the proevious material. It's its own thing starting from scratch.

The DW material was written to reconsile all of the various inconsistancies throughout G1 and creat a single continuity. It was based primarily on the toy continuities as written in the tech-specs, as well as the best parts of the cartoons and old Marvel comics, and the various mentions from Beast Wars to create a single difinitive whole. The Ultimate Guide discusses all of these elements creating that unifiied whole, keeping that which works, and getting rid of the overly contradictory material. Primus and Unicron are gods, created by the Sourse. Both are capable of transforming, Primus created 13 original TransFormers to "pilot" and maintain his systems as Cybertron travelled through the cosmos. One of them was seduced by Unicron and turned on the others becoming "The Fallen", and, in a great battle against Unicron, most of the Original 13 were destroyed, and the Fallen was pulled into a great black hole along with Unicron. Of the survivors were Alpha Trion, Vector Prime (Yes, the guy from Cybertron, remember this is a multiverse. Each universe has their own incarnations of the Original 13), the owner of Maccadamc Old Oil bar, and Liege Maximo. Maximo would also fall to evil and father the Decepticons. Alpha Trion was placed in charge of maintaining the link between Primus and his children until that link was severed by an invading army, most likely the Quintessans, who then enslaved the early Cybertronians, the first of at least a few times this has occured. The first instant of course would divide the transFormers into "Military" slaves and "consumer" slaves. Then came the great revolt. The last invasion, which likely happened some time after the events of War Within, resulted in the taking of all of the female TransFormers. We know this because The Quintessans use Moonracer and Firestar as guards, as well as part of an "extraction team" lead by Elita-1, Optimus Prime's long-lost girlfriend, after having sent Arcee as a mole to spy on the Autobots in preparation for their plot to retake Cybertron from all the TransFormers and re-enslave them all.

News Credits: 1 · by **sto_vo_kor_2000** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:46 am

Tramp wrote:
sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
Tramp wrote:The Ultimate Guide is supposed to be the difinitive Tf history. It also explains that there are multiple "alternate realities", of which the Marvel comics and cartoons are. Each contains bits and pieces of the truth, but the Ultimate Guide gives the difinitive answer, much of which is based upon the DW books.

And the second that the Dream Wave univers fell under so did the socalled "difinitive Tf history".That's the problem with Transformers as a whole.....every time it changes hands they start the whole thing over again.Look at what IDW has done with it.....Makes a lot of the DW stuff null and voide.
No, it doesn't. The IDW stuff is its own continuity that has absolutely nothing to do with anything previous. It's a fresh start. Ti doesn't overwrite the proevious material. It's its own thing starting from scratch.

The DW material was written to reconsile all of the various inconsistancies throughout G1 and creat a single continuity. It was based primarily on the toy continuities as written in the tech-specs, as well as the best parts of the cartoons and old Marvel comics, and the various mentions from Beast Wars to create a single difinitive whole. The Ultimate Guide discusses all of these elements creating that unifiied whole, keeping that which works, and getting rid of the overly contradictory material. Primus and Unicron are gods, created by the Sourse. Both are capable of transforming, Primus created 13 original TransFormers to "pilot" and maintain his systems as Cybertron travelled through the cosmos. One of them was seduced by Unicron and turned on the others becoming "The Fallen", and, in a great battle against Unicron, most of the Original 13 were destroyed, and the Fallen was pulled into a great black hole along with Unicron. Of the survivors were Alpha Trion, Vector Prime (Yes, the guy from Cybertron, remember this is a multiverse. Each universe has their own incarnations of the Original 13), the owner of Maccadamc Old Oil bar, and Liege Maximo. Maximo would also fall to evil and father the Decepticons. Alpha Trion was placed in charge of maintaining the link between Primus and his children until that link was severed by an invading army, most likely the Quintessans, who then enslaved the early Cybertronians, the first of at least a few times this has occured. The first instant of course would divide the transFormers into "Military" slaves and "consumer" slaves. Then came the great revolt. The last invasion, which likely happened some time after the events of War Within, resulted in the taking of all of the female TransFormers. We know this because The Quintessans use Moonracer and Firestar as guards, as well as part of an "extraction team" lead by Elita-1, Optimus Prime's long-lost girlfriend, after having sent Arcee as a mole to spy on the Autobots in preparation for their plot to retake Cybertron from all the TransFormers and re-enslave them all.

Your mostly speeking of event's that never made it to print because of DW's down fall. I would have loved to see it all come to past but it didnt.As for the other stuff you mention.....when you take parts of G1 toy history,Marvel G1 history,Cartoon G1 history and try to put them all together to create a single difinitive history you are in effect creating a whole new universe.I know that the IDW is a freash start but so was DW before it when you think about it.They were just trying to keep all the G1 purest happy by trying to combine all the different G1 history's into one.But it would have been a different G1 universe if it had all come to past with some thing still being the same and others being different.....it might have made more sence thou...

by **Tramp** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:58 am

Yes, but the DW did create a difinitive whole, and the Ultimate Guide did state that their are "alternate realities" of which the Marvel-verse is one. The latest edition of the Ultimate guide added in the information about the IDW books, which was missing from the first printing that had been printed when DW still had the rights. And I don't know where Glyph heard that the DW continuity is no longer recognized by Hasbro, because as far as I know it still is. Even IDW has stated they want to pick up where DW left off, but can't because of the bankrupcy litigation. I was given this information by IDW in response to an email I sent them when their Infiltration series first came out. a lot of people want the DW stories completed, including MicroMasters and [b]Age of Wrath[/i], as well as at least a conclusion to the remaining stroy arc in the ongoing series. IDW's "G1" restart doesn't even have anything to do with their Beast Wars title. There is no connection. The Beast Wars is still tied to classic G1. IDW is running an entire multiverse of "what-if"s, Beast Wars, and its own modern retelling of G1 set entirely in modern day with its own contiuity copletely disconnected with anything prior. The DW continuity was tied to its predecessors. Once the DW bankrupcy litigation is complete, I am sure IDW will pick up where DW left off as well as continue their current story-line each in their own series.

And also, most of the events I refer to regarding the Quintessans did indeed make it into print. Specifically, issue #0 and isue #10.

News Credits: 1 · by **sto_vo_kor_2000** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:13 am

Tramp wrote:Yes, but the DW did create a difinitive whole, and the Ultimate Guide did state that their are "alternate realities" of which the Marvel-verse is one. The latest edition of the Ultimate guide added in the information about the IDW books, which was missing from the first printing that had been printed when DW still had the rights. And I don't know where Glyph heard that the DW continuity is no longer recognized by Hasbro, because as far as I know it still is. Even IDW has stated they want to pick up where DW left off, but can't because of the bankrupcy litigation. I was given this information by IDW in response to an email I sent them when their Infiltration series first came out. a lot of people want the DW stories completed, including MicroMasters and [b]Age of Wrath[/i], as well as at least a conclusion to the remaining stroy arc in the ongoing series. IDW's "G1" restart doesn't even have anything to do with their Beast Wars title. There is no connection. The Beast Wars is still tied to classic G1. IDW is running an entire multiverse of "what-if"s, Beast Wars, and its own modern retelling of G1 set entirely in modern day with its own contiuity copletely disconnected with anything prior. The DW continuity was tied to its predecessors. Once the DW bankrupcy litigation is complete, I am sure IDW will pick up where DW left off as well as continue their current story-line each in their own series.

And also, most of the events I refer to regarding the Quintessans did indeed make it into print. Specifically, issue #0 and isue #10.

I think the problem here is that the word "difinitive" is used to losely.I didnt know that they updated and rerleased the Ultimate Guide again.When did it come out?

by **Tramp** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:17 am

It came out not too long ago. Just a few months back in fact, but before the release of the movie. I was reading it Sunday afternoon. and copied a few pasages from it for another debate I'm involved in. Some of the information I posted here is a condensation of that information. Most remained unchanged from the previous addition, except for the addition of the IDW material and mention of the new moive, which had not been released yet. Unfortunately, I can't afford to buy it yet. One of the downsides of being freelance.

News Credits: 1 · by **sto_vo_kor_2000** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:20 am

Tramp wrote:It came out not too long ago. Just a few months back in fact, but before the release of the movie. I was reading it Sunday afternoon. and copied a few pasages from it for another debate I'm involved in. Some of the information I posted here is a condensation of that information. Most remained unchanged from the previous addition, except for the addition of the IDW material and mention of the new moive, which had not been released yet. Unfortunately, I can't afford to buy it yet. One of the downsides of being freelance.

I know what you mean....money is tight.How go's your other debate and is it here.

by **Tramp** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:21 am

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
Tramp wrote:It came out not too long ago. Just a few months back in fact, but before the release of the movie. I was reading it Sunday afternoon. and copied a few pasages from it for another debate I'm involved in. Some of the information I posted here is a condensation of that information. Most remained unchanged from the previous addition, except for the addition of the IDW material and mention of the new moive, which had not been released yet. Unfortunately, I can't afford to buy it yet. One of the downsides of being freelance.

I know what you mean....money is tight.How go's your other debate and is it here.

Yes it is. In fact, in this very forum. It's a very long one too.

News Credits: 1 · by **sto_vo_kor_2000** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:23 am

Tramp wrote:
sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
Tramp wrote:It came out not too long ago. Just a few months back in fact, but before the release of the movie. I was reading it Sunday afternoon. and copied a few pasages from it for another debate I'm involved in. Some of the information I posted here is a condensation of that information. Most remained unchanged from the previous addition, except for the addition of the IDW material and mention of the new moive, which had not been released yet. Unfortunately, I can't afford to buy it yet. One of the downsides of being freelance.

I know what you mean....money is tight.How go's your other debate and is it here.

Yes it is. In fact, in this very forum. It's a very long one too.

Whats the tread's name I want to check it out.