The Energon Pub

Burnup Prime wrote:

roy_flagg00 wrote:

Burnup Prime wrote:to put it simply: G1 designs worked in 1984, but would NOT work in 2007

Exactly.
And bayformers would not work in 1984 and would work never.
You can't climb the high road of realism and take the low road of cliche.
I bet that there are designs out there that aren't g1 but also dont suck.
I know it hurts to admit, but people should not psyche themselves into believing the designs are good just because they like transformers so much that they dont want the movie to fail.
The designs were not the worst ever, but could have been way better.
Also, don't forget to buy your new Pontiac Solstice!
That way you can imagine you too are riding around in a transformer!

that was NOT what I was saying, you dope. I was saying that they had to change with the times. one good example is Optimus Prime. how often do you see a flat-nosed truck these days? not often. it would have looked out of place. and the new transformers designs can and do work. they are Transformers, and it ticks me off how people like you call them "bayformers". these guys count as trasnsformers just as much as all the other Transformers made throughout history

Saying bayformers count as transformers is like saying all those planes that came before the wright brothers' plane (the ones in black and white news reels with the old timey music) count as planes, or maybe the bicycles the the one big wheel at the front and the one really small wheel in the back count as bikes. Comparison in name and funcion only.

I think lying underneath this debate is the desire some people have to have some kind of mecha creation that americans can be proud of.
here are two comparative examples:




if you like johnny five, chances are you will like bayformers
here is another:




If you like mechwarrior more, you will probably like bayformers.
It does not have to be g1, it just should not suck.
I think americans really could not design a good looking mech to save their lives, maybe you disagree. This same style could have been don by japanese designers and would have looked 100 times better.
Also, don't forget to go out and buy mountain dew and a brand new camaro! hooray american business!

roy_flagg00 wrote:

Burnup Prime wrote:

roy_flagg00 wrote:

Burnup Prime wrote:to put it simply: G1 designs worked in 1984, but would NOT work in 2007

Exactly.
And bayformers would not work in 1984 and would work never.
You can't climb the high road of realism and take the low road of cliche.
I bet that there are designs out there that aren't g1 but also dont suck.
I know it hurts to admit, but people should not psyche themselves into believing the designs are good just because they like transformers so much that they dont want the movie to fail.
The designs were not the worst ever, but could have been way better.
Also, don't forget to buy your new Pontiac Solstice!
That way you can imagine you too are riding around in a transformer!

that was NOT what I was saying, you dope. I was saying that they had to change with the times. one good example is Optimus Prime. how often do you see a flat-nosed truck these days? not often. it would have looked out of place. and the new transformers designs can and do work. they are Transformers, and it ticks me off how people like you call them "bayformers". these guys count as trasnsformers just as much as all the other Transformers made throughout history

Saying bayformers count as transformers is like saying all those planes that came before the wright brothers' plane (the ones in black and white news reels with the old timey music) count as planes, or maybe the bicycles the the one big wheel at the front and the one really small wheel in the back count as bikes. Comparison in name and funcion only.

I think lying underneath this debate is the desire some people have to have some kind of mecha creation that americans can be proud of.
here are two comparative examples:
[images]
if you like johnny five, chances are you will like bayformers
here is another:
[images]
If you like mechwarrior more, you will probably like bayformers.
It does not have to be g1, it just should not suck.
I think americans really could not design a good looking mech to save their lives, maybe you disagree. This same style could have been don by japanese designers and would have looked 100 times better.
Also, don't forget to go out and buy mountain dew and a brand new camaro! hooray american business!

"Bayformers" are Transformers. They are transforming giant robots from the planet Cybertron. They are divided into two factions: good Autobots and evil Decepticons. They are led by Optimus Prime (who is a red and blue truck) and Megatron. The two factions are at war, and the war has been brought to Earth. If that isn't Transformers, then what is?!

As for you last part (bolded), if you think that making BB a Camaro is just advertising, then all of them are advertising their vehicle forms. But wait! If none of them had Earthly vehicle forms, then they wouldn't be advertising brands, but they wouldn't be Transformers, would they?

great!
I am glad we all agree that whoring the transformers brand out to every company who wanted a piece was a good idea!
can't wait to see pepsibot and mcdonaldtron in the next movie!
btw, I guess you like mechwarrior.
thats cool with me.........


(this post was sponsored by GMC. go out and buy one NOW!)

roy_flagg00 wrote:great!
I am glad we all agree that whoring the transformers brand out to every company who wanted a piece was a good idea!
can't wait to see pepsibot and mcdonaldtron in the next movie!
btw, I guess you like mechwarrior.
thats cool with me.........


(this post was sponsored by GMC. go out and buy one NOW!)

What are you talking about?

I have no idea what he's talking about but I do know that 'Short Circuit' is one of the greatest movies ever.

Neko wrote:

nugget wrote:

YouFearGalvatron wrote:

So you're saying that G1 is realistic because they have human faces and regular hands and that the movie looks cartoonish because it looks different? Wow, you sure are a Geewunner. I am SICK of people like you who don't like the movie because of the designs.

If you are so sick of other people's opinions, you can always leave this PUBLIC forum.

No one has a gun to your head, forcing you to read posts that offend your "greater" sensibilities.

You, like everyone else, can leave if so desired.

Wait a min. Is this Seibertron.com com or the Don Murphy boards...?

In the past few weeks, one tends to wonder.


YouFearGalvatron, simply because someone has an opnion that differs from you doesn't mean they don't deserve to post in this PUBLIC forum just as much as you do.


As hypacritical as it sounds: I can't tolerate those who are intolerant of others.

On the contrary, I am quite tolerant.

Besides, I was voicing my opinion. As it turns out, those who do not love the film tend to get silenced, but those who love it are defended.

roy_flagg00

It does not have to be g1, it just should not suck.
I think americans really could not design a good looking mech to save their lives, maybe you disagree. This same style could have been don by japanese designers and would have looked 100 times better.

Hot Rod wrote:So what you're saying is that THIS style put in the hands of pro's like ILM would in no way have worked and had a snowballs chance in hell to work just as good as the designs that were actually used?

This style would have been much better. The new designs don't work in action scenes at all.

Mechanurgist wrote:

Hot Rod wrote:So what you're saying is that THIS style put in the hands of pro's like ILM would in no way have worked and had a snowballs chance in hell to work just as good as the designs that were actually used?

This style would have been much better. The new designs don't work in action scenes at all.

Couldn't agree more.

Just look how exciting that clip there was. The movie did NOTHING even close to it, did it?

And it worked, didn't it? Did all of you just watch that youtube clip and go "Oh my GOD, it's so blocky! It'll never work in a mainstream movie!!!"

Lord knows I sure didn't.
THAT'S pretty close to what I was hoping for.

Hot Rod wrote:So what you're saying is that THIS style put in the hands of pro's like ILM would in no way have worked and had a snowballs chance in hell to work just as good as the designs that were actually used?

Sorry, but that design is WAY too cartooney. I wouldn't have enjoyed it at all.

..and that face

cyclonus11 wrote:

Hot Rod wrote:So what you're saying is that THIS style put in the hands of pro's like ILM would in no way have worked and had a snowballs chance in hell to work just as good as the designs that were actually used?

Sorry, but that design is WAY too cartooney. I wouldn't have enjoyed it at all.

..and that face

Say wha? For one, it's an amateur rendering. Get a team of programmers, and you can be sure the face will have more expression.

As for too cartoony... HOW?

The CGI, Disney-styled "constantly moving bodies" syndrome used in the movie was REALISTIC?

Gyuuh.

I want more of that youtube clip... lots and lots more.
It's beauty brings tears to my eye.
But it showing the lost potential of the movie brings tears too.

cyclonus11 wrote:

Hot Rod wrote:So what you're saying is that THIS style put in the hands of pro's like ILM would in no way have worked and had a snowballs chance in hell to work just as good as the designs that were actually used?

Sorry, but that design is WAY too cartooney. I wouldn't have enjoyed it at all.

..and that face

I have to agree with Cyclonus11. That looked nowhere near realistic. My friend, who happens to be an animator said the same thing when I showed him. He also said the movie designs looked very real and were well done.

Riotflea wrote:

Mechanurgist wrote:

Hot Rod wrote:So what you're saying is that THIS style put in the hands of pro's like ILM would in no way have worked and had a snowballs chance in hell to work just as good as the designs that were actually used?

This style would have been much better. The new designs don't work in action scenes at all.

Couldn't agree more.

Just look how exciting that clip there was. The movie did NOTHING even close to it, did it?

And it worked, didn't it? Did all of you just watch that youtube clip and go "Oh my GOD, it's so blocky! It'll never work in a mainstream movie!!!"

Lord knows I sure didn't.
THAT'S pretty close to what I was hoping for.

QFT.

Throw $150 million at those designs, and have SPIELBERG/LUCAS/JACKSON direct, and you have yourself a winner.

First post ever, so here goes....

I have to say I liked the new designs. Could they have been better? Yes. Do they work as-is? Yes. Here's my explanation for why they went into so much detail with the designs, and not bear too much similarity to G1.

It's quite simple, really... Human Relation.

Firstly, they over-aestheticized their look to make the cattle (AKA the general populace) take a look at them, and go "ooooohhhh, shiny....." basically a ruse to be able to garner a large amount of people into seeing it, because of how DETAILED and SHINY everything is. If you think about it, they really didn't need to have over 10,000 moving parts per one Transformer, they could have simplified things, and it might have done just as well... BUT, these designs help ILM get the chance to win an oscar for special effects, making them get more commissions, and thusly, more money.

To the designs themselves...

Think about it, all the Autobots (in my opinion) have kind looks to their faces, albeit not necessarily pretty but they're aliens, what are you gonna do? None of the Autobots looked like they would hurt anyone (okay... except Ironhide, but he was still good, damn it!). This gives the general audience (no, not the fans) a chance to see that "Oh, they must be the good guys," and they wouldn't harm them. Optimus Prime was given lips to help the audience feel like the Transformers are more like them, and help them relate to the Transformers.

The Decepticons, on the other hand, have a more spiky, menacing look to them. They look the most alien out of all the Transformers. The spikes remind the people of dangerous things, like knives, swords, maces, morning stars, etc. It makes the audience think "oooh, they're pretty scary, those must be the bad guys." That's EXACTLY why Megatron was so spiky, he looks the most dangerous one, and the most menacing... but I will agree it doesn't look like the original Megatron, but I believe that his design was perfect for his character... plus it helped bring out his true self.

One last thing... I know Michael Bay isn't the best director of all time, but it could have been worse...

That's all I've got!

To everyone here... FLAME ON! (Please don't kill me for that)

TheUnnamedHunter wrote:...over 10,000 moving parts per one Transformer...

Actually, it's more like millions of parts. Ironhide's gun alone has 10,000 parts to it.

I thought they did a geat job on the designs. I would have preferred Optimus with is mouth cover but otherwise, they all looked really cool.

Apperently, Soundwave will be in the second film. Soundwave>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>all.

Autobobby1 wrote:

TheUnnamedHunter wrote:...over 10,000 moving parts per one Transformer...

Actually, it's more like millions of parts. Ironhide's gun alone has 10,000 parts to it.

That helps my point even more.

Autobobby1 wrote:

roy_flagg00 wrote:

Burnup Prime wrote:

roy_flagg00 wrote:

Burnup Prime wrote:to put it simply: G1 designs worked in 1984, but would NOT work in 2007

Exactly.
And bayformers would not work in 1984 and would work never.
You can't climb the high road of realism and take the low road of cliche.
I bet that there are designs out there that aren't g1 but also dont suck.
I know it hurts to admit, but people should not psyche themselves into believing the designs are good just because they like transformers so much that they dont want the movie to fail.
The designs were not the worst ever, but could have been way better.
Also, don't forget to buy your new Pontiac Solstice!
That way you can imagine you too are riding around in a transformer!

that was NOT what I was saying, you dope. I was saying that they had to change with the times. one good example is Optimus Prime. how often do you see a flat-nosed truck these days? not often. it would have looked out of place. and the new transformers designs can and do work. they are Transformers, and it ticks me off how people like you call them "bayformers". these guys count as trasnsformers just as much as all the other Transformers made throughout history

Saying bayformers count as transformers is like saying all those planes that came before the wright brothers' plane (the ones in black and white news reels with the old timey music) count as planes, or maybe the bicycles the the one big wheel at the front and the one really small wheel in the back count as bikes. Comparison in name and funcion only.

I think lying underneath this debate is the desire some people have to have some kind of mecha creation that americans can be proud of.
here are two comparative examples:
[images]
if you like johnny five, chances are you will like bayformers
here is another:
[images]
If you like mechwarrior more, you will probably like bayformers.
It does not have to be g1, it just should not suck.
I think americans really could not design a good looking mech to save their lives, maybe you disagree. This same style could have been don by japanese designers and would have looked 100 times better.
Also, don't forget to go out and buy mountain dew and a brand new camaro! hooray american business!

"Bayformers" are Transformers. They are transforming giant robots from the planet Cybertron. They are divided into two factions: good Autobots and evil Decepticons. They are led by Optimus Prime (who is a red and blue truck) and Megatron. The two factions are at war, and the war has been brought to Earth. If that isn't Transformers, then what is?!

As for you last part (bolded), if you think that making BB a Camaro is just advertising, then all of them are advertising their vehicle forms. But wait! If none of them had Earthly vehicle forms, then they wouldn't be advertising brands, but they wouldn't be Transformers, would they?

thank you! just because you don't like the designs Roy_flagg00 or that they were american made doesn't mean they are not Transformers. it depends on the characters, the story, and the basic Transformers concepts, not the designs

I have been around for all the generations, I like the movie designs as much as I like many of the other great jems of the other incarnations, however great the concept a g1 TF would still have a rigid and difficult time moving compaired to these movie designs. as noted in Ratchet and Ironhide's squad combat manuvers when facing off with Starscream. the sectional armor coverings, plated sheaths and enmassed cableing, coils, rods and sprockets are no different than our own muscle system, they follow suit of such redesigns as the the other breadwinners like X-men couldn't be as purist as say Spidey and FF (that actually got Doom right the second time around...) which gives hope the the nay sayers... as the tag line says, everything changes, frenzy was a jambox and then was a cell phone, bumblebee was a beater then a burner as the autobots adapt to their new home what's to say some won't strive for a more paletable bot mode, Tracks would be at the top of the list of show bots. other than character recognition who's to say next time around Ironhide isn't Red, or Ratchet White or Prime is tired of flames, much like I got rid of all my old flannels and ripped jeans from high school tastes change...

it depends on the characters, the story, and the basic Transformers concepts, not the designs

Agreed. But it does not feel as though the attributes before "designs" in your sentence were addressed correctly.
So to many of us, at LEAST the designs need to resemble something recognizable. Just slapping a name on is not just ineffective, but pretty damn annoying at that point.

is they used the g1 design like they said it wont look realistic.

how often do you see a flat-nosed truck these days?

Actually they are still around, maybe not as much as they used to be, but they are still there. So it wouldnt be out of place if they used it.

Riotflea wrote:

it depends on the characters, the story, and the basic Transformers concepts, not the designs

Agreed. But it does not feel as though the attributes before "designs" in your sentence were addressed correctly.
So to many of us, at LEAST the designs need to resemble something recognizable. Just slapping a name on is not just ineffective, but pretty damn annoying at that point.

many of them DO have resemblances to some incarnation of that character or another

gobots transform, but they are not transformers.
again, from a completely objective stand point, they could have done these designs in a completely different way and still have them look realistic.
I am not the type of person who is going to swallow this trash just because it looks "realistic". I know better.
in the transformers universe, these were not the worst designs, but certainly not the best, in fact, probably very low on the ladder. maybe one step above beast machine toys.
energon was not G1, but I liked it.
beastwars was not G1, but I liked it.
btw, lime green hummer/ambulance? flame decorated truck? brand new Camero? pontiac solstice?
Hello, the point of "robots in disguise" is to NOT bring attention to yourself. These robots just happened to pick the most flamboyant, attention drawing designs for their alt forms, even though they supposedly have studied earth's culture? Maybe the only channel cybertron picks up is MTV............

See folks, this is what happens when you sell out to a car company. They make you pick whack-ass designs for your characters to help sell their products, to hell with the design philosophy. The idea was not "hey lets make jazz a pontiac solstice!", someone from GM walked in and said "we want to sell this. Make one of your characters this car or we pull our support"
go read gijoe/transformers (the post wwII based one) to find some CRAZY dope designs. Then come back and tell me that bayformers are the only way it can be done.

beastwars was not G1, but I liked it.

Yes it was. And damn popular, as a result.

again, from a completely objective stand point, they could have done these designs in a completely different way and still have them look realistic.
I am not the type of person who is going to swallow this trash just because it looks "realistic". I know better.

Indeed. The idea that they COULDN'T have come out of the wood chipper looking better than these is downright insulting.

in the transformers universe, these were not the worst designs, but certainly not the best, in fact, probably very low on the ladder. maybe one step above beast machine toys.

Ew. I never made that connection... for some reason. But yeah, I see it.