The Energon Pub

Asking for examples of when Cyclonus or Scourge acted like Skywarp, Thundercracker or the Insecticons is something I think is quite hard given that I can't really recall the Seekers as acting like anything more than grunts.

One could argue that Cyclonus' loyalty to Galvatron was a carry-over from Skywarp's loyalty to Megatron, but that only works if one believes it was Skywarp and not Bombshell that became Cyclonus.

At a stretch one could argue that Scourge's disloyalty and attempt to become leader in "The Burden Hardest To Bear" was a carry-over from Thundercracker's doubts about the Decepticon cause. Of course, I can't readily cite any examples of the cartoon demonstrating Thundercracker's doubts (I'm only remembering it from the toy bio). Also, Scourge's treachery didn't seem (to me) to be about doubting the Decepticon cause but rather simply seemed to be about doubting his current leader (or any leader other than himself).

Saber Prime wrote:Gawd damn it, I hate that "No Post Mode Specified" bull, I just lost my entire post and I don't really feel like rewrighting it now.

I need some sleep. Two baby nephews, love them, but they don't let me sleep.

When you get a chance repost it......I would like to hear your thoughts.

Sledge wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:I still belive the seekers and the Insecticons were upgraded and were just dieing like Megatron but it could easily be belived thath they were all dead at the time and just used for parts.

In that case, cite me an instance where Cyclonus or Scourge acted like Thundercracker, Skywarp or one of the Insecticons. You can't. No matter how much some people wish otherwise, Skywarp and TC died in the movie. The Insecticons maybe survived, as we saw them after the new guys were made, so the Insecticons we saw reformatted may have been clones.

To be clear, I don't know if TC, 'Warp and the Insecticons were actually dead when Unicron reformatted them, but they ceased to exist as a result, so the point is pretty much irrelevant.

Thats my point of view as well......hence when I say they were upgrades of their bodys but not their characters.And besides the cloned Insecticons had no character...they were drones.

Leonardo wrote:Asking for examples of when Cyclonus or Scourge acted like Skywarp, Thundercracker or the Insecticons is something I think is quite hard given that I can't really recall the Seekers as acting like anything more than grunts.

One could argue that Cyclonus' loyalty to Galvatron was a carry-over from Skywarp's loyalty to Megatron, but that only works if one believes it was Skywarp and not Bombshell that became Cyclonus.

I really dont remember any time that Skywarp showed any real signs of loyalty twards Megatron....it was more like fear.I remember a few times that he left Megatron on the battlefeild and retreated.....and none of his character bio's [ toy's, Marvel or Dreamwave ]have any mention of loyalty to Megatron....so that arguement you mention wouldnt have much of a leg to stand on.

Leonardo wrote:At a stretch one could argue that Scourge's disloyalty and attempt to become leader in "The Burden Hardest To Bear" was a carry-over from Thundercracker's doubts about the Decepticon cause. Of course, I can't readily cite any examples of the cartoon demonstrating Thundercracker's doubts (I'm only remembering it from the toy bio). Also, Scourge's treachery didn't seem (to me) to be about doubting the Decepticon cause but rather simply seemed to be about doubting his current leader (or any leader other than himself).

That would be a real long stretch but I'm shocked you missed the obviouse one......any one of the Insecticons always showed disloyalty twards Megatron and there's no reason to believe that the seaker in the middle of Unicron's reformatting grid became Scourge other then personal views.But then you would have to believe that they were the Insecticons and not there clones.

Leonardo wrote:Asking for examples of when Cyclonus or Scourge acted like Skywarp, Thundercracker or the Insecticons is something I think is quite hard given that I can't really recall the Seekers as acting like anything more than grunts.

One could argue that Cyclonus' loyalty to Galvatron was a carry-over from Skywarp's loyalty to Megatron, but that only works if one believes it was Skywarp and not Bombshell that became Cyclonus.

At a stretch one could argue that Scourge's disloyalty and attempt to become leader in "The Burden Hardest To Bear" was a carry-over from Thundercracker's doubts about the Decepticon cause. Of course, I can't readily cite any examples of the cartoon demonstrating Thundercracker's doubts (I'm only remembering it from the toy bio). Also, Scourge's treachery didn't seem (to me) to be about doubting the Decepticon cause but rather simply seemed to be about doubting his current leader (or any leader other than himself).

I can't recall an example of Skywarp being loyal to Megatron. He didn't try to kill Megs (which admittedly puts him above about 50% of cartoon 'Cons ), but I never saw any loyalty. Above everything, neither Cyclonus or Scourge gave any indication that they thought of themselves as having been anyone else. I know some Seekers fans don't like it, but Cyclonus and Scourge were new characters.

Saber: let me get this straight. The characters have new bodies and new personalities, but you still think they're the same characters as before? That makes no sense at all.

Just stepping back a bit...

Saber Prime wrote:After all Tankor and Rhinox are the same character but their personalitys are nothing alike

Their personalities are very much alike - it was only the body that really changed. True, Tankor's 'original' personality suppressed Rhinox's, but when Rattrap pushed that personality aside, the villain who remained was very much Rhinox, albeit with a much darker character than we previously knew. But sometimes that happens to people - he's by no means a different character, nor does he have a different personality - just some different traits.

Saber Prime wrote:Gawd damn it, I hate that "No Post Mode Specified" bull, I just lost my entire post and I don't really feel like rewrighting it now.

Happens to me all the time, unfortunately. Next time, try hitting the 'back' button when you get the message, and you may well find the post's still there and you can resubmit.

Ramrider wrote:Just stepping back a bit...

Saber Prime wrote:After all Tankor and Rhinox are the same character but their personalitys are nothing alike

Their personalities are very much alike - it was only the body that really changed. True, Tankor's 'original' personality suppressed Rhinox's, but when Rattrap pushed that personality aside, the villain who remained was very much Rhinox, albeit with a much darker character than we previously knew. But sometimes that happens to people - he's by no means a different character, nor does he have a different personality - just some different traits.

Saber Prime wrote:Gawd damn it, I hate that "No Post Mode Specified" bull, I just lost my entire post and I don't really feel like rewrighting it now.

Happens to me all the time, unfortunately. Next time, try hitting the 'back' button when you get the message, and you may well find the post's still there and you can resubmit.

1. I belive even though Rhinox regained his memories and inteligence his personality was verry much still corrupt by Tankor's programing. He shared Megatron's goals but just thought Cybertron's ruler should be him and not Megatron. There were parts of Rhinox present, the insaine inteligence, his memories of being a Maximal, thinking of the Maximals as "old friends", his dislike of Megatron but everything else was Tankor.

I consider them 3 seperate personalitys, 1 character. Rhinox (Beast Wars), Tankor, and Tainkox.

2. I tried that, my entire post was gone and it happen to me twice in this topic. While I'm thinking about it I'm going to highlight and copy this before I post it... just in case.

Saber Prime wrote:1. I belive even though Rhinox regained his memories and inteligence his personality was verry much still corrupt by Tankor's programing. He shared Megatron's goals but just thought Cybertron's ruler should be him and not Megatron. There were parts of Rhinox present, the insaine inteligence, his memories of being a Maximal, thinking of the Maximals as "old friends", his dislike of Megatron but everything else was Tankor.

I consider them 3 seperate personalitys, 1 character. Rhinox (Beast Wars), Tankor, and Tainkox.

I only consider the dumbed-down Tankor as a seperate character myself - a sort of 'shell program'. From what the 'new' Tankor said, it appeared very much like it's not the programming that changed his personality, but his experiences between the end of Beast Wars and when he volunteered to undergo the Vehicon reformat. If a person goes through some major trauma or similar, it can really shake up their worldview, and their personality will likely change dramatically as a result - it doesn't make them any less who they were, and I think that's what happened with Rhinox.

Saber Prime wrote:2. I tried that, my entire post was gone and it happen to me twice in this topic. While I'm thinking about it I'm going to highlight and copy this before I post it... just in case.

Heh... Yeah, I always do that when it's happened once. Once bitten, and all that...

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:
OK You brought up some interesting points here, ones I don't nessisarily agree with but I think for the first time someone has actully exsplained this in a way that makes sence to me.

I still belive the seekers and the Insecticons were upgraded and were just dieing like Megatron but it could easily be belived thath they were all dead at the time and just used for parts..

Glad I could help...or at least give you reason to look at it in a new way Even if you dont agree.

Saber Prime wrote:Now about the downgrade thing. It doesn't really matter that we see Optimus Prime first, that's still not a downgrade BEACAUSE it's set in the past before Optimus ever exsisted. If we had seen Orian Pax first and Optimus turned back into him that would be a downgrade..

Its just a technical way of looking at it.......since we were talking about characters that we saw getting upgraded.I would assume that almost all the G1 TF's were upgrade from a non combat capable robot mode much like we say with Prime and Elita.....and I'm not trying to sugest that Prime turned back to Orion when I say character downgrade, but technically what we see is a retro-downgrade character wise to fit the plot of those stories.I'm not sugesting thats its a technical downgrade.....but I would measure a upgrade by wether or not we see a character evolve from his first apperance to his more powerfull or newer body.

Saber Prime wrote:Riker and... can't remember his name (I do belive his clone took a different name) are not the same character, they lead two complatly different lives (from the point of the accident onward) there's a big difference between 1 character getting an upgrade into a new body and getting cloned. Picard and Licutis (spelling?) are the same character but not Riker and his clone.

Tom was the clone's name...he went with his middle name.The reason I even brought this up was the clone was made from a duplicate transporter beem that held Riker's patern...in a sence a DNA sample........the way I see it it not that different from Unicron taking parts of the dead cons and making new characters.

1. I'm trying to exspalin you're useing the wrong word. I get what you're trying to say but you're missreading me.

A downgrade is when Rodimus Prime takes out his Matrix and turns back into Hot Rod. He changes from Rodimus to Hot Rod.

Now if someone were to go back in time to before Hot Rod ever got the Matrix in the first place that Hot Rod would not be a downgraded Rodimus because Rodmius doesn't exsist yet for him.

You have to first be upgraded before you can be downgraded and sence Orian Pax was never Optimus Prime it's not a downgrade.

Orian Pax is a past version of Optimus not a downgraded version.

2. Thouse are COMPLETLY different things. In order for your clone therie to be accurate that would mean Megatron, the seekers, and the Insecticons were still floating out in space for the rest of the movie and all of season 3.

A clone is a copy of another person that becomes a seperate character. They exsist in the same time and dimention as the original character hence Galvatron would be able to kill Starscream while at the same time Megatron was still floating in space rusting to death.

Any version of you from another dimention or another time period would be the same character. Hence if what happen to Riker were anywhere near what happen to Megatron there ould be clone he'd just all the sudden deside to be called Tom and the most boring episode of Star Trek ever wrighten would be made.

Think of it this way. Do you consider yourself now and youself from 10 years ago to be two different people or is yourself now just an older, hopefully wiser, and maybe bigger virsion of that same person from 10 years ago?

If it was possible for you to clone yourself would you consider your clone to be the same person as you or a new life of it's own?

Picard has a clone too. Can't remember his name but he was in Star Trek Nemesis. That character is not Picard. Licutis is Picard. Licutis is just another version of Picard after he got captured by the borg. That clone from Star Trek Nemesis other than sharing the same DNA has his own body, his own mind, his own birthday (if you can call it that. Technically a clone's birthday is the day they were created not the day the original was born), and his own name.

Clones are seperate characters. They can co-exsist in the same time and dimention as their original version without the aid of a time machine or dimentional rift.

Characters who are the same character can not co-exsist with other versions of themselfs without the aid of a time machine or dimentional rift.

Calling Tom the same character as William or Picard the same as his clone would be the equivilant of calling a pair of twins or a man and his son the same person. Just because they look alike doesn't mean they are the same.

Likewise just because someone looks and/or acts different doesn't mean they are a different person.

Oh and I finnally managed to post this without getting the no post mode thingy.

Ramrider wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:1. I belive even though Rhinox regained his memories and inteligence his personality was verry much still corrupt by Tankor's programing. He shared Megatron's goals but just thought Cybertron's ruler should be him and not Megatron. There were parts of Rhinox present, the insaine inteligence, his memories of being a Maximal, thinking of the Maximals as "old friends", his dislike of Megatron but everything else was Tankor.

I consider them 3 seperate personalitys, 1 character. Rhinox (Beast Wars), Tankor, and Tainkox.

I only consider the dumbed-down Tankor as a seperate character myself - a sort of 'shell program'. From what the 'new' Tankor said, it appeared very much like it's not the programming that changed his personality, but his experiences between the end of Beast Wars and when he volunteered to undergo the Vehicon reformat. If a person goes through some major trauma or similar, it can really shake up their worldview, and their personality will likely change dramatically as a result - it doesn't make them any less who they were, and I think that's what happened with Rhinox.

Saber Prime wrote:2. I tried that, my entire post was gone and it happen to me twice in this topic. While I'm thinking about it I'm going to highlight and copy this before I post it... just in case.

Heh... Yeah, I always do that when it's happened once. Once bitten, and all that...

Rhinox didn't "vounteer" to become Tankor. Megatron had allready exstracted Rhinox's spark by force some time before the whole chase sequence at the start of the first episode. Megatron didn't even know at that point he was ever going to make Tankor.

Still it doesn't matter what Tainkox said I still belive him to have been corrupted by the Tankor program.

Silverbolt and Waspinator didn't change like that when they were changed back and their minds are much weaker and more likely to go into shock from a tramatic exsperience.

Heck Silverbolt did change from his exsperience but not in the way you described with Rhinox. Silverbolt was more tramitized by his exsperience as Jetstorm more than anything else. He was able to remember every horible thing he had done as Jetstorm.

Waspinator, well he was allready a Predacon and he was just happy he wasn't getting blown up anymore.

Saber Prime wrote:1. I'm trying to exspalin you're useing the wrong word. I get what you're trying to say but you're missreading me.

A downgrade is when Rodimus Prime takes out his Matrix and turns back into Hot Rod. He changes from Rodimus to Hot Rod.

Now if someone were to go back in time to before Hot Rod ever got the Matrix in the first place that Hot Rod would not be a downgraded Rodimus because Rodmius doesn't exsist yet for him.

You have to first be upgraded before you can be downgraded and sence Orian Pax was never Optimus Prime it's not a downgrade.

Orian Pax is a past version of Optimus not a downgraded version..

I was useing the word losely..... from the prespective of a writter.....its a term sometimes used when referring to a past physical state to a technology based object of a one seen in a story before and is now being seen in a past version.But I should have made my self clearer.

Saber Prime wrote:2. Thouse are COMPLETLY different things. In order for your clone therie to be accurate that would mean Megatron, the seekers, and the Insecticons were still floating out in space for the rest of the movie and all of season 3..

I didnt say that they were that exactly the same thing...just that they werent that different.And in a sence its not.A clone is a new body made from a sample of another....Unicron took from the old bodys and made new ones.Not the same but not that different.Unicron just used more then what we would commonly think as needed for a clone.

Saber Prime wrote:A clone is a copy of another person that becomes a seperate character. They exsist in the same time and dimention as the original character hence Galvatron would be able to kill Starscream while at the same time Megatron was still floating in space rusting to death..

Not really...like I said the prosses is simular not the same much like replicator tech is simular to holodeck tech but still not the same.So in effect Unicron used the whole body not just a small sample.....thats what I ment by simular.

Saber Prime wrote:Any version of you from another dimention or another time period would be the same character. Hence if what happen to Riker were anywhere near what happen to Megatron there ould be clone he'd just all the sudden deside to be called Tom and the most boring episode of Star Trek ever wrighten would be made..

How would a alternate universe version of me or anyone be the same character??????The alternate universe version of Kirk and Spock from TOS episode "Mirror Mirror" were different characters.The same universe was revisited in Deep space 9 episodes "Through the Looking Glass" ,"Crossover","Resurrection" "The Emperor's New Cloak" and "Shattered Mirror" where we meet that universe's version's of almost all of DS9 crew and Tuvock from Voyager and they were all different characters.And that universe was again revisited for a Enterprise 2 parter "In a Mirror, Darkly parts 1&2" where we meet alternate version of their Enterprise crew and they were all different characters.I dont know if you read comics but in the DC universe there is a alternate earth version of Batman and Superman from a universe where they are criminal's......thet are not the same characters.DC has not 52 different universes with almost as many different versions of Batman and Superman and their all different characters.I dont know how you can suggest that a alternate universe or dimention or another time period would version of myself or anyone would be the same character.

Saber Prime wrote:Picard has a clone too. Can't remember his name but he was in Star Trek Nemesis. That character is not Picard. Licutis is Picard. Licutis is just another version of Picard after he got captured by the borg. That clone from Star Trek Nemesis other than sharing the same DNA has his own body, his own mind, his own birthday (if you can call it that. Technically a clone's birthday is the day they were created not the day the original was born), and his own name..

Shinzon was his clones and I would not say that Locutus was another version of Picard.He may have been made from Picard but thats it.No part of Picards personalty would have aggred to becoming Locutus....Locutus was a creation of the Borg queen that no longer wanted wanted to be the only single voice in the Borg collective.There may be parts of Locutus left in Picards mind thou.

Saber Prime wrote:Clones are seperate characters. They can co-exsist in the same time and dimention as their original version without the aid of a time machine or dimentional rift...

I know what a clone is.

Saber Prime wrote:Characters who are the same character can not co-exsist with other versions of themselfs without the aid of a time machine or dimentional rift..

Are you from the U.K. The reason I ask is that I have found that your point of view is common amongest fans of Si Fi from the U.K. In the U.S. this idea is almost non-existed.In Star Trek alone there are exsamples of how the same character can co-exsist with him self or with alternate universe cersions of him self bot there was technology of some kind involved.

Saber Prime wrote:Calling Tom the same character as William or Picard the same as his clone would be the equivilant of calling a pair of twins or a man and his son the same person. Just because they look alike doesn't mean they are the same..

I didnt say they were the same...I was asking you your opinion.

Saber Prime wrote:Likewise just because someone looks and/or acts different doesn't mean they are a different person..

Never said that ether.....but when one person is changed by an other by some kind of rewritting or brainwashing of their brain and a new personality emerges that bare's no simularties to the previous one then I would say that were dealing with a new person.

Saber Prime wrote:Oh and I finnally managed to post this without getting the no post mode thingy.

Just got it myself while trying to post this.

Sledge wrote:

Leonardo wrote:Asking for examples of when Cyclonus or Scourge acted like Skywarp, Thundercracker or the Insecticons is something I think is quite hard given that I can't really recall the Seekers as acting like anything more than grunts.

One could argue that Cyclonus' loyalty to Galvatron was a carry-over from Skywarp's loyalty to Megatron, but that only works if one believes it was Skywarp and not Bombshell that became Cyclonus.

At a stretch one could argue that Scourge's disloyalty and attempt to become leader in "The Burden Hardest To Bear" was a carry-over from Thundercracker's doubts about the Decepticon cause. Of course, I can't readily cite any examples of the cartoon demonstrating Thundercracker's doubts (I'm only remembering it from the toy bio). Also, Scourge's treachery didn't seem (to me) to be about doubting the Decepticon cause but rather simply seemed to be about doubting his current leader (or any leader other than himself).

I can't recall an example of Skywarp being loyal to Megatron. He didn't try to kill Megs (which admittedly puts him above about 50% of cartoon 'Cons ), but I never saw any loyalty. Above everything, neither Cyclonus or Scourge gave any indication that they thought of themselves as having been anyone else. I know some Seekers fans don't like it, but Cyclonus and Scourge were new characters.

That was kind of my problem when I first started the post; I can't personally recall the Seekers being anything more than grunts, which is why I said I have trouble believing Cyclonus and Scourge are the same as characters as Skywarp and Thundercracker. I don't recall the Seekers having enough character to map a personality carry-over. I basically ran with what I could remember (which, thinking about it now, may have been merely toy bios or what I recall other people saying how the Seekers were). Like I said, they were stretches.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Someone suggested that the Transformers could see the etchings on the JPEG used in the listing.

What sort of technology? I'm not doubting you, I just can't think of any and I'm not terribly knowledgable about Star Trek.

Leonardo wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Someone suggested that the Transformers could see the etchings on the JPEG used in the listing.

What sort of technology? I'm not doubting you, I just can't think of any and I'm not terribly knowledgable about Star Trek.

What are you asking me????Thats not a quote by me that you have quoted there.

Egad, that's not what I typed! That's not even from this forum! I meant:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Are you from the U.K. The reason I ask is that I have found that your point of view is common amongest fans of Si Fi from the U.K. In the U.S. this idea is almost non-existed.In Star Trek alone there are exsamples of how the same character can co-exsist with him self or with alternate universe cersions of him self bot there was technology of some kind involved.

What sort of technology? I'm not doubting you, I just can't think of any and I'm not terribly knowledgable about Star Trek.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:Any version of you from another dimention or another time period would be the same character. Hence if what happen to Riker were anywhere near what happen to Megatron there ould be clone he'd just all the sudden deside to be called Tom and the most boring episode of Star Trek ever wrighten would be made..

How would a alternate universe version of me or anyone be the same character??????The alternate universe version of Kirk and Spock from TOS episode "Mirror Mirror" were different characters.The same universe was revisited in Deep space 9 episodes "Through the Looking Glass" ,"Crossover","Resurrection" "The Emperor's New Cloak" and "Shattered Mirror" where we meet that universe's version's of almost all of DS9 crew and Tuvock from Voyager and they were all different characters.And that universe was again revisited for a Enterprise 2 parter "In a Mirror, Darkly parts 1&2" where we meet alternate version of their Enterprise crew and they were all different characters.I dont know if you read comics but in the DC universe there is a alternate earth version of Batman and Superman from a universe where they are criminal's......thet are not the same characters.DC has not 52 different universes with almost as many different versions of Batman and Superman and their all different characters.I dont know how you can suggest that a alternate universe or dimention or another time period would version of myself or anyone would be the same character.

I'm not even going to respond to this because you answered your own question. I'll just highlight your answer in bold.

I can elaberate on that answer if you want but for now just think about what you just said for a moment.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:Likewise just because someone looks and/or acts different doesn't mean they are a different person..

Never said that ether.....but when one person is changed by an other by some kind of rewritting or brainwashing of their brain and a new personality emerges that bare's no simularties to the previous one then I would say that were dealing with a new person.

It's not a new person. You can even look this up. It's a proven fact that no amount of brain washing can force someone into doing something they wouldn't do anyway.

All brainwashing can really do is cause someone to act on feelings they allready had. Example: Everyone at one time or another has wanted to kill their boss or someone who got them really mad. Under normal circumstances you probly would never act on that feeling but if you were under hypnosis you would.

Hypnosis can not force you to kill a person you've never met and don't even know.

This is why Silverbolt and Picard carrey the guilt of the crimes they commited as Jetstorm and Licutis. They are the same people.

Leonardo wrote:Egad, that's not what I typed! That's not even from this forum! I meant:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Are you from the U.K. The reason I ask is that I have found that your point of view is common amongest fans of Si Fi from the U.K. In the U.S. this idea is almost non-existed.In Star Trek alone there are exsamples of how the same character can co-exsist with him self or with alternate universe cersions of him self bot there was technology of some kind involved.

What sort of technology? I'm not doubting you, I just can't think of any and I'm not terribly knowledgable about Star Trek.

That depends on wether your asking about a character co-exsisting with himself or with a alternate universe version of himself.
For the first any technology capable of time travel....and in Star Trek thats not only a time machine.Also in the Next Generation episode "We'll Always Have Paris" a Dr. Paul Manheim a Temporal scientist, created a devise to conduct experiments in non-linear time and in doing so cracked a window into a new dimension.This crack caused was was called "Temporal Hiccoughs" this effect caused time to briefly super-impose over its self.At first it was just time repeating it self but as the window widen the effect grew till at one point we see 3 Date's [one of the character's] from the same universe in one room....basicly from different second in a minute.So lets say one of him was from 60 seconds the other from 40 seconds and the 3rd from 20 seconds.
For different universe versions of someone interaction with each other a interdimenshial transporter as been used more offten but also travel trew a artifical wormhole that some God like aliens built and live in that are not effected by "linear time" has also led to characters from one universe meating their counterparts.

Saber Prime wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:Any version of you from another dimention or another time period would be the same character. Hence if what happen to Riker were anywhere near what happen to Megatron there ould be clone he'd just all the sudden deside to be called Tom and the most boring episode of Star Trek ever wrighten would be made..

How would a alternate universe version of me or anyone be the same character??????The alternate universe version of Kirk and Spock from TOS episode "Mirror Mirror" were different characters.The same universe was revisited in Deep space 9 episodes "Through the Looking Glass" ,"Crossover","Resurrection" "The Emperor's New Cloak" and "Shattered Mirror" where we meet that universe's version's of almost all of DS9 crew and Tuvock from Voyager and they were all different characters.And that universe was again revisited for a Enterprise 2 parter "In a Mirror, Darkly parts 1&2" where we meet alternate version of their Enterprise crew and they were all different characters.I dont know if you read comics but in the DC universe there is a alternate earth version of Batman and Superman from a universe where they are criminal's......thet are not the same characters.DC has not 52 different universes with almost as many different versions of Batman and Superman and their all different characters.I dont know how you can suggest that a alternate universe or dimention or another time period would version of myself or anyone would be the same character.

I'm not even going to respond to this because you answered your own question. I'll just highlight your answer in bold.

I can elaberate on that answer if you want but for now just think about what you just said for a moment.

Please do cause I still dont get how you can say their the same characters.

Saber Prime wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:Likewise just because someone looks and/or acts different doesn't mean they are a different person..

Never said that ether.....but when one person is changed by an other by some kind of rewritting or brainwashing of their brain and a new personality emerges that bare's no simularties to the previous one then I would say that were dealing with a new person.

It's not a new person. You can even look this up. It's a proven fact that no amount of brain washing can force someone into doing something they wouldn't do anyway.

All brainwashing can really do is cause someone to act on feelings they allready had. Example: Everyone at one time or another has wanted to kill their boss or someone who got them really mad. Under normal circumstances you probly would never act on that feeling but if you were under hypnosis you would.

Hypnosis can not force you to kill a person you've never met and don't even know.

This is why Silverbolt and Picard carrey the guilt of the crimes they commited as Jetstorm and Licutis. They are the same people.

I would beg to differ on this point.....just because they feel guilt and remember what they did doesnt meen that their the same person that commited those crimes.The over writting personality did the crimes.Now in Silverbolts case....who knows how much of his original personalty was in place but in Picards case his personality was completly submerged in Locutis.....and Picard would have never even thought of dooing the things that Locutis.What happened to him is like taking a computer and wiping the hard drive clean.....if you try hard enough you might find the info you lost but for the most part the pc is emty.So they placed Locutis in there.They even say as much in the movie "First Contact".

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:Any version of you from another dimention or another time period would be the same character. Hence if what happen to Riker were anywhere near what happen to Megatron there ould be clone he'd just all the sudden deside to be called Tom and the most boring episode of Star Trek ever wrighten would be made..

How would a alternate universe version of me or anyone be the same character??????The alternate universe version of Kirk and Spock from TOS episode "Mirror Mirror" were different characters.The same universe was revisited in Deep space 9 episodes "Through the Looking Glass" ,"Crossover","Resurrection" "The Emperor's New Cloak" and "Shattered Mirror" where we meet that universe's version's of almost all of DS9 crew and Tuvock from Voyager and they were all different characters.And that universe was again revisited for a Enterprise 2 parter "In a Mirror, Darkly parts 1&2" where we meet alternate version of their Enterprise crew and they were all different characters.I dont know if you read comics but in the DC universe there is a alternate earth version of Batman and Superman from a universe where they are criminal's......thet are not the same characters.DC has not 52 different universes with almost as many different versions of Batman and Superman and their all different characters.I dont know how you can suggest that a alternate universe or dimention or another time period would version of myself or anyone would be the same character.

I'm not even going to respond to this because you answered your own question. I'll just highlight your answer in bold.

I can elaberate on that answer if you want but for now just think about what you just said for a moment.

Please do cause I still dont get how you can say their the same characters.

OK to answer your other question I've never even been to the U.K. but I do share alot of traits with them, mainly the Brittish in that to end any story I've wrighten just like they end a TV series I kill off my entire cast.

No I'm not from the U.K., I was born and raised in California. The farthest I've even been out of this state is Nevada and I was there for like 2 days on vacation in Vegas.

Now back to this. They are "Alternate versions" of the same character. To better exspain this I gotta esplain my therie on how an alternate dimention is even created.

My belife is that rather than haveing a time "line" it actully is more like a time "tree" every choice you make in life branches out into another dimention.

It's not just you have orange juice in this dimention and milk in another. The version of you who had the orange juice and the version who had milk where the same version before you made that decision.

That's just a small choise I used as an example not really a big difference but enough to branch out into another dimention of the time line. Now somewhere on that tree is a version of you that made all the right choises in life and is probly more successfull than you are here. He's still you just a different version of you.

Somewhere on the tree allso is another version of you who made all the wrong choices in life and might be liveing on the streets right now. He again is still you just a different version of you.

No matter what dimention you go into if you travel back in time to your birth you'll witness the exact same event. Nothing will change for you till thoughs mements after your birth.

By this therie you can't really change history, you can only create another branch in the tree. By going back and fixing your change you only open the gate back to your own branch but that alternate version still exsists on another branch.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:Likewise just because someone looks and/or acts different doesn't mean they are a different person..

Never said that ether.....but when one person is changed by an other by some kind of rewritting or brainwashing of their brain and a new personality emerges that bare's no simularties to the previous one then I would say that were dealing with a new person.

It's not a new person. You can even look this up. It's a proven fact that no amount of brain washing can force someone into doing something they wouldn't do anyway.

All brainwashing can really do is cause someone to act on feelings they allready had. Example: Everyone at one time or another has wanted to kill their boss or someone who got them really mad. Under normal circumstances you probly would never act on that feeling but if you were under hypnosis you would.

Hypnosis can not force you to kill a person you've never met and don't even know.

This is why Silverbolt and Picard carrey the guilt of the crimes they commited as Jetstorm and Licutis. They are the same people.

I would beg to differ on this point.....just because they feel guilt and remember what they did doesnt meen that their the same person that commited those crimes.The over writting personality did the crimes.Now in Silverbolts case....who knows how much of his original personalty was in place but in Picards case his personality was completly submerged in Locutis.....and Picard would have never even thought of dooing the things that Locutis.What happened to him is like taking a computer and wiping the hard drive clean.....if you try hard enough you might find the info you lost but for the most part the pc is emty.So they placed Locutis in there.They even say as much in the movie "First Contact".

Maybe if Licutis was only the borg implants and there was no Picard there.

You're sugesting Picard was possesed by another entity other than himself (which may be true).

Data at one time had a weird symbol on his forhead and was possesed by several different enties fighting for controll over his body. Non of them were Data but they were just controlling him.

I think in Picards case though they said Picard was "turned into Licutis" rather than he was "being controlled by Licutis".

Saber Prime wrote:Now back to this. They are "Alternate versions" of the same character. To better exspain this I gotta esplain my therie on how an alternate dimention is even created.

My belife is that rather than haveing a time "line" it actully is more like a time "tree" every choice you make in life branches out into another dimention.

It's not just you have orange juice in this dimention and milk in another. The version of you who had the orange juice and the version who had milk where the same version before you made that decision.

That's just a small choise I used as an example not really a big difference but enough to branch out into another dimention of the time line. Now somewhere on that tree is a version of you that made all the right choises in life and is probly more successfull than you are here. He's still you just a different version of you.

Somewhere on the tree allso is another version of you who made all the wrong choices in life and might be liveing on the streets right now. He again is still you just a different version of you.

No matter what dimention you go into if you travel back in time to your birth you'll witness the exact same event. Nothing will change for you till thoughs mements after your birth.

By this therie you can't really change history, you can only create another branch in the tree. By going back and fixing your change you only open the gate back to your own branch but that alternate version still exsists on another branch.

Interesting how you described the mulible version of me as different versions of me................................
I see what your trying to say but scientifically your theroy collapses on its self.A character is defined by his or hers life experiences and key events in their lives.Lets take just two universes for the sake of this debate.One where I make all the right choices and one where I make all the wrong choices.How long before all those wrong or right choices you mention widen the gap between the two versions of me....and s history progresses how those changes effect others I may ,or in the other may not, have met in my life time.In the right choice universe I may have become a Transformers fan an met you online on this site....in the wroge choice universe I may have killed my brother at a young age like I wanted to when I was a kid and went to jail and never got into Transformers and never met you.And after 100 years how would those sutel difference of the past now repesent them selfs.How would my desision in the right choice universe or the wrong choice effect my friends and family,how would it mold my children and what may they have become or if they were ever born in the first place.When do the differences become so vast in scope and so numeruse that they cant be equated that it qualfy's as a different universe with different characters even if some universal qurik has determined that my desendents were still born.
As it stands useing the Star Trek exsamples I mention earlyer.The Ben Sisko of the mainstream universe was born on earth in a free world...none of his choices in life branched into the Mirror universe version of him who was born into a slave camp and tortured all his life.The changes in his universe has been theorized to have taken place in 2063 ,at the events of First Contact with the Vulcans....about 332 years before he was born.So useing your theroy how can they be the same character???

And it contradicts your earlyer statement on clones being different characters....let me quote your earlyer statement.

Saber Prime wrote:
Riker and... can't remember his name (I do belive his clone took a different name) are not the same character, they lead two complatly different lives (from the point of the accident onward)

The point being that if the clone of Riker [Tom] lived a complatly different life after he was cloned and because of that he's a different character then what would be the difference between the two branches version of me living complatly different lives from each other ,one with the right choices and one with the wrong choices, how would that be any different then the clone issue?????

Saber Prime wrote:Maybe if Licutis was only the borg implants and there was no Picard there.

You're sugesting Picard was possesed by another entity other than himself (which may be true).

I think in Picards case though they said Picard was "turned into Licutis" rather than he was "being controlled by Licutis".

To be correct Picard was possesed by millions apond millions of different minds....The Borg Collective.The Borg Queen wanted a consort of a sorts....a mate.....someone to share her life with and that of the Collective.She wanted Picard to be that person.....He refused and rejected her offer so she made him a Drone.....the only reason that he had a name and a voice was to better faciletate the assimulation of the Federation.The same was done to Seven of 9 when the Borg entered into a Truce with the Voyager crew.She was given a voice so that the crew could better comulicate with the Collective.

In Picards case the implants were control devises from the Borg collective....they completly submerge anyones DNA and personalty while at the same time leaving that person mind open like a file cabinit so they clan read all the info inside it.

Saber Prime wrote:Rhinox didn't "vounteer" to become Tankor. Megatron had allready exstracted Rhinox's spark by force some time before the whole chase sequence at the start of the first episode. Megatron didn't even know at that point he was ever going to make Tankor.

Still it doesn't matter what Tainkox said I still belive him to have been corrupted by the Tankor program.

Haven't seen BM in a while, but I could've sworn I remembered that Tankor said that unlike Silverbolt, he'd switched sides of his own accord...
Maybe I misinterpreted or misremembered, though...

I don't think Rhinox chose to become Tankor of his own free will. I believe Megatron captured his spark and then imprisoned it inside Tankor. However, after Tankor had committed various acts, Rhinox was corrupted and then chose to turn against the Maximals (and Megatron, if I recall).

Ramrider wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:Rhinox didn't "vounteer" to become Tankor. Megatron had allready exstracted Rhinox's spark by force some time before the whole chase sequence at the start of the first episode. Megatron didn't even know at that point he was ever going to make Tankor.

Still it doesn't matter what Tainkox said I still belive him to have been corrupted by the Tankor program.

Haven't seen BM in a while, but I could've sworn I remembered that Tankor said that unlike Silverbolt, he'd switched sides of his own accord...
Maybe I misinterpreted or misremembered, though...

I havnt see the show in a while ether but I dont remember that....but I do remember something simulr...after getting his memorys of Rinox back he chose to stay with Meg's instead of being reformated by Primal.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:Now back to this. They are "Alternate versions" of the same character. To better exspain this I gotta esplain my therie on how an alternate dimention is even created.

My belife is that rather than haveing a time "line" it actully is more like a time "tree" every choice you make in life branches out into another dimention.

It's not just you have orange juice in this dimention and milk in another. The version of you who had the orange juice and the version who had milk where the same version before you made that decision.

That's just a small choise I used as an example not really a big difference but enough to branch out into another dimention of the time line. Now somewhere on that tree is a version of you that made all the right choises in life and is probly more successfull than you are here. He's still you just a different version of you.

Somewhere on the tree allso is another version of you who made all the wrong choices in life and might be liveing on the streets right now. He again is still you just a different version of you.

No matter what dimention you go into if you travel back in time to your birth you'll witness the exact same event. Nothing will change for you till thoughs mements after your birth.

By this therie you can't really change history, you can only create another branch in the tree. By going back and fixing your change you only open the gate back to your own branch but that alternate version still exsists on another branch.

Interesting how you described the mulible version of me as different versions of me................................
I see what your trying to say but scientifically your theroy collapses on its self.A character is defined by his or hers life experiences and key events in their lives.Lets take just two universes for the sake of this debate.One where I make all the right choices and one where I make all the wrong choices.How long before all those wrong or right choices you mention widen the gap between the two versions of me....and s history progresses how those changes effect others I may ,or in the other may not, have met in my life time.In the right choice universe I may have become a Transformers fan an met you online on this site....in the wroge choice universe I may have killed my brother at a young age like I wanted to when I was a kid and went to jail and never got into Transformers and never met you.And after 100 years how would those sutel difference of the past now repesent them selfs.How would my desision in the right choice universe or the wrong choice effect my friends and family,how would it mold my children and what may they have become or if they were ever born in the first place.When do the differences become so vast in scope and so numeruse that they cant be equated that it qualfy's as a different universe with different characters even if some universal qurik has determined that my desendents were still born.
As it stands useing the Star Trek exsamples I mention earlyer.The Ben Sisko of the mainstream universe was born on earth in a free world...none of his choices in life branched into the Mirror universe version of him who was born into a slave camp and tortured all his life.The changes in his universe has been theorized to have taken place in 2063 ,at the events of First Contact with the Vulcans....about 332 years before he was born.So useing your theroy how can they be the same character???

And it contradicts your earlyer statement on clones being different characters....let me quote your earlyer statement.

Saber Prime wrote:
Riker and... can't remember his name (I do belive his clone took a different name) are not the same character, they lead two complatly different lives (from the point of the accident onward)

The point being that if the clone of Riker [Tom] lived a complatly different life after he was cloned and because of that he's a different character then what would be the difference between the two branches version of me living complatly different lives from each other ,one with the right choices and one with the wrong choices, how would that be any different then the clone issue?????

Saber Prime wrote:Maybe if Licutis was only the borg implants and there was no Picard there.

You're sugesting Picard was possesed by another entity other than himself (which may be true).

I think in Picards case though they said Picard was "turned into Licutis" rather than he was "being controlled by Licutis".

To be correct Picard was possesed by millions apond millions of different minds....The Borg Collective.The Borg Queen wanted a consort of a sorts....a mate.....someone to share her life with and that of the Collective.She wanted Picard to be that person.....He refused and rejected her offer so she made him a Drone.....the only reason that he had a name and a voice was to better faciletate the assimulation of the Federation.The same was done to Seven of 9 when the Borg entered into a Truce with the Voyager crew.She was given a voice so that the crew could better comulicate with the Collective.

In Picards case the implants were control devises from the Borg collective....they completly submerge anyones DNA and personalty while at the same time leaving that person mind open like a file cabinit so they clan read all the info inside it.

The difference between you in another universe leading a different life and a clone leading a different life is really verry simple.

You and your alternate universe self lead the same life in the same time line. I for example no matter what universe I went into would still be born March 6, 1986.

A clone does not lead your life at all. They are never born. Clones may have the memories of their original but they never actully lived any of thoughs events. Both William and Tom remember everything that happen to them from childhood to the moment of the teliporter accident but only ONE of them actully lived thoughs events. Tom's birthday is technically the day of the transporter accident and not the same as William's.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Ramrider wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:Rhinox didn't "vounteer" to become Tankor. Megatron had allready exstracted Rhinox's spark by force some time before the whole chase sequence at the start of the first episode. Megatron didn't even know at that point he was ever going to make Tankor.

Still it doesn't matter what Tainkox said I still belive him to have been corrupted by the Tankor program.

Haven't seen BM in a while, but I could've sworn I remembered that Tankor said that unlike Silverbolt, he'd switched sides of his own accord...
Maybe I misinterpreted or misremembered, though...

I havnt see the show in a while ether but I dont remember that....but I do remember something simulr...after getting his memorys of Rinox back he chose to stay with Meg's instead of being reformated by Primal.

He didn't really "stay with megs" He was fighting agenst both sides. He thought Megatron had the right idea but he thought he should be the rightfull ruler of Cybertron not Megatron.