The Energon Pub

Chris™ wrote:

Skowl wrote:

Tex Hex wrote:Hey, UPS trucks are cool.

I can see that little kid walking up to Prime in some commercial and say "Hey! I wont yew to turn into dat bigbrowntruk!" lol

skywarp-2 wrote:

Chris™ wrote:

1337W422102 wrote:This isn't addressed to anyone in particular, but how, again, is f***ing with icons a so-called tiny detail?

I wasnt around for the other shows (the anime style ones with the minibots), but did people complain this much when prime became a f.iretruck and had no blue on him from what I recall. To me thats more of a change to an "ICON" than putting some flames on him which in his altmode helps him blend with other big rigs on the road as well as having a part time mouth.

Edit: hehe (F)iretruck starts with an F and ends with K so the filters picked it up,

Yeah but thats different, RID Optimus Prime became an icon in himself, due to the fact that he was a fire truck, and the fact that he came out just as the 911 attacks hit us hard here in the USA..

so it heightened his form and made him an icon to the masses..not to mention his design was very close to G-1 in some respects and beast wars, and the coolest thing ever..

he could combine with Ultra Magnus and become a super badass!!! I still think that version of Prime, regardless of the cartoon being like pokemon, was one of the best Optimus Prime designs I had ever seen, besides the original..and just to let you know, the fire truck Prime had blue on him, though in small amounts it was there.. see below:

You know what's strange, I always thought that if I was in charge of the Transformers Movie, I would have made Prime a fire-truck. I know that that would have enraged alot of fans, but I think it suits Prime's personnality much better than his X-Treme riceboy-semi he has now.

Just goes to show that maybe even a TF fan like myself, if put in charge of a movie like this, would make changes that would be seen as controversial by many fans.

Skowl wrote:Imagine this... It is the year 2005 and Christopher Nolan is about to release the first new Batman movie in years. We find out that Nolan has cast Gilbert Gottfried as Bruce Wayne and that Batman's costume is now hot pink with high heels and the Batmobile is now a UPS parcel delivery truck missing a wheel.

But nobody should complain, everybody should just be happy that they're getting a new Batman movie.

Well, I'd be fine until I saw the movie, but that's because Christopher Nolan is my favorite director and I trust what he does pretty much implicitly.

This comparison would be more apt if it were at all possible to compare Nolan to Michael Bay as directors, because the two are entirely different, and Nolan was a Batman fan growing up, which durkadurka is right about being the most important part.

And you say this like no one complained about anything Nolan did. People are still complaining about Ledger being cast for a movie that doesn't come out for over a year. Some people will complain about whatever he does with The Joker. Plus, Nolan isn't going to do what the fans want just to please them, he's going to do what he thinks will make the best movie possible.

The Paragon of Virtue wrote:

Skowl wrote:Imagine this... It is the year 2005 and Christopher Nolan is about to release the first new Batman movie in years. We find out that Nolan has cast Gilbert Gottfried as Bruce Wayne and that Batman's costume is now hot pink with high heels and the Batmobile is now a UPS parcel delivery truck missing a wheel.

But nobody should complain, everybody should just be happy that they're getting a new Batman movie.

Well, I'd be fine until I saw the movie, but that's because Christopher Nolan is my favorite director and I trust what he does pretty much implicitly.

This comparison would be more apt if it were at all possible to compare Nolan to Michael Bay as directors, because the two are entirely different, and Nolan was a Batman fan growing up, which durkadurka is right about being the most important part.

And you say this like no one complained about anything Nolan did. People are still complaining about Ledger being cast for a movie that doesn't come out for over a year. Some people will complain about whatever he does with The Joker. Plus, Nolan isn't going to do what the fans want just to please them, he's going to do what he thinks will make the best movie possible.

Didn't people, and don't people still, complain about the Tumbler, for a start?

Leonardo wrote:

The Paragon of Virtue wrote:

Skowl wrote:Imagine this... It is the year 2005 and Christopher Nolan is about to release the first new Batman movie in years. We find out that Nolan has cast Gilbert Gottfried as Bruce Wayne and that Batman's costume is now hot pink with high heels and the Batmobile is now a UPS parcel delivery truck missing a wheel.

But nobody should complain, everybody should just be happy that they're getting a new Batman movie.

Well, I'd be fine until I saw the movie, but that's because Christopher Nolan is my favorite director and I trust what he does pretty much implicitly.

This comparison would be more apt if it were at all possible to compare Nolan to Michael Bay as directors, because the two are entirely different, and Nolan was a Batman fan growing up, which durkadurka is right about being the most important part.

And you say this like no one complained about anything Nolan did. People are still complaining about Ledger being cast for a movie that doesn't come out for over a year. Some people will complain about whatever he does with The Joker. Plus, Nolan isn't going to do what the fans want just to please them, he's going to do what he thinks will make the best movie possible.

Didn't people, and don't people still, complain about the Tumbler, for a start?

Exactly. This is exactly the analogy about production changes and "the big picture."

Production changes "iconic" car to a tank, so it's still basically a "vehicle." Diehards feel slighted, feeling the change was too much, but general audience is happy with the new spin. Movie makes a ton of cash regardless of change.

Skowl wrote:You know what's strange, I always thought that if I was in charge of the Transformers Movie, I would have made Prime a fire-truck. I know that that would have enraged alot of fans, but I think it suits Prime's personnality much better than his X-Treme riceboy-semi he has now.

Just goes to show that maybe even a TF fan like myself, if put in charge of a movie like this, would make changes that would be seen as controversial by many fans.

Not that strange, I'd do the same thing in fact. I think the (f)iretruck is a better representation of who Prime is than a semi (even though I like the semi).

Your point is valid though. No way everyone will be happy.

Skowl wrote:

skywarp-2 wrote:

Chris™ wrote:

1337W422102 wrote:This isn't addressed to anyone in particular, but how, again, is f***ing with icons a so-called tiny detail?

I wasnt around for the other shows (the anime style ones with the minibots), but did people complain this much when prime became a f.iretruck and had no blue on him from what I recall. To me thats more of a change to an "ICON" than putting some flames on him which in his altmode helps him blend with other big rigs on the road as well as having a part time mouth.

Edit: hehe (F)iretruck starts with an F and ends with K so the filters picked it up,

Yeah but thats different, RID Optimus Prime became an icon in himself, due to the fact that he was a fire truck, and the fact that he came out just as the 911 attacks hit us hard here in the USA..

so it heightened his form and made him an icon to the masses..not to mention his design was very close to G-1 in some respects and beast wars, and the coolest thing ever..

he could combine with Ultra Magnus and become a super badass!!! I still think that version of Prime, regardless of the cartoon being like pokemon, was one of the best Optimus Prime designs I had ever seen, besides the original..and just to let you know, the fire truck Prime had blue on him, though in small amounts it was there.. see below:

You know what's strange, I always thought that if I was in charge of the Transformers Movie, I would have made Prime a fire-truck. I know that that would have enraged alot of fans, but I think it suits Prime's personnality much better than his X-Treme riceboy-semi he has now.

Just goes to show that maybe even a TF fan like myself, if put in charge of a movie like this, would make changes that would be seen as controversial by many fans.

well i don't think you'd have too many complaints, as long as you didn't have spike in the movie and any type of hardcore g-1 relics then you could hget away with having a Fire truck Optimus prime.. the design would have been met better by fans, as well as starscream and megatron, for that matter..but since this is based on G-1 and alot of it, it just makes people upset to see it the way it is.. with no cybertron, protoform comets, no ar, no teletran one, no true megatron, a dumb and apelike starscream..optimus prime with mouth and flames, bumblebee comarro and no mouth, Ironhide puma truck, Rathcet green snot truck, ect.. ect..

Bottom Line, if the movie didn't have spike as the main character, wasn't based on G-1 there wouldn't be a welker or cullen cry out group, there wouldn't be soo much contorversy..

Leonardo wrote:

The Paragon of Virtue wrote:

Skowl wrote:Imagine this... It is the year 2005 and Christopher Nolan is about to release the first new Batman movie in years. We find out that Nolan has cast Gilbert Gottfried as Bruce Wayne and that Batman's costume is now hot pink with high heels and the Batmobile is now a UPS parcel delivery truck missing a wheel.

But nobody should complain, everybody should just be happy that they're getting a new Batman movie.

Well, I'd be fine until I saw the movie, but that's because Christopher Nolan is my favorite director and I trust what he does pretty much implicitly.

This comparison would be more apt if it were at all possible to compare Nolan to Michael Bay as directors, because the two are entirely different, and Nolan was a Batman fan growing up, which durkadurka is right about being the most important part.

And you say this like no one complained about anything Nolan did. People are still complaining about Ledger being cast for a movie that doesn't come out for over a year. Some people will complain about whatever he does with The Joker. Plus, Nolan isn't going to do what the fans want just to please them, he's going to do what he thinks will make the best movie possible.

Didn't people, and don't people still, complain about the Tumbler, for a start?

not really the tumbler was perfect, it showed the start of the batman batmobile fetish, and was actually beliveable, and was agreat intro to his secret batmobile mechanic, i think people now understand why that was done and how cool the concept actually is, but the mouth concepty on Prime is not.. it has been done before, and still, even then wasn't well recieved...I think the mouth thing will basically be hated... even after the movie hits it big, the mouth will be argued forever...and thats a shame.. but then maybe thats what they want.. bad publicity is better then no publicity at all..

Omega Sentinel wrote:

Skowl wrote:I don't know how many times I need to say this, but you do not need a mouth to project emotions!

In a Michael Bay movie you do. He has never made a movie with deep characters.

Mouth, eyes, flipping the bird, or whatever. He needs to do whatever he can with Prime to project emotions because the story certainly won't.

PS...How come the bot that shouldn't have a mouth (Prime) does and the bots that should have a mouth (everyone else) don't?

I'm just on page 4 of reading through all this but don't forget Megatron has mouth that looks like something out of legend of the Overfiend.

I'm gonna disagree on the RID Prime became his own Icon thing. Outside the Fandom RID was a forgettable blip on th popculture radar. People who aren't Transformers fans remember G1, BW, and for those with kids now parts of the Unicron Trilogy.

And Prime in general as cool as he is has no where near the recognition factor of Batman, Superman, Spiderman, or half the other superhero's they've made movies out of lately. We can kid ourselves into thinking that he does, but really both he and Megatron aren't really that famous.

And as for the little thing about complaints about the Tumbler, people are still bitching about it. Because like anything else what you think is cool others don't always agree with.

Personally I like the mouth thing. I would have been happy with jsut the mouth plate, but it doesn't bother me in the least that he has a mouth. Just as it didn't bother me when they did in the past. And its not like he doesn't have his face plate at all, its simply armor instead of being his actual mouth. Hell even MP Prime has a mouth underneath his face plate.

tentagil wrote:And Prime in general as cool as he is has no where near the recognition factor of Batman, Superman, Spiderman, or half the other superhero's they've made movies out of lately. We can kid ourselves into thinking that he does, but really both he and Megatron aren't really that famous.

Think you'll find that Prime ranked pretty highly on the memorable stakes. A few months ago there was a survey or poll or something conducted which he ranked pretty high on.

Prime simply hasn't had the exposure the others have had, and he's also gone through different incarnations, but trust me, a lot of non-fans still remember good ol G1 Prime.

I actually like the mouth. Stop whining, people.

I encourage anyone who is disappointed with how we've been treated or the designs or the inappropriate alternate modes or anything else to NOT go see this movie. Spread the word to your friends and family as well.

We really shouldn't support this. Spiderman fans get true to form material and we get nothing we recognize. I certainly will not be in the theatre to see this.

Does it really matter if he has a faceplate or not? It's like hair color on James Bond, not that big of a deal.

Optimus747 wrote:I actually like the mouth. Stop whining, people.

Gotta love these people telling othes to "shut up" when they complain.

Grimshock wrote:I encourage anyone who is disappointed with how we've been treated or the designs or the inappropriate alternate modes or anything else to NOT go see this movie. Spread the word to your friends and family as well.

We really shouldn't support this. Spiderman fans get true to form material and we get nothing we recognize. I certainly will not be in the theatre to see this.

I won't pay to see in the theatre either. It's a sham of a Transformers movie.

Grimshock wrote:I encourage anyone who is disappointed with how we've been treated or the designs or the inappropriate alternate modes or anything else to NOT go see this movie. Spread the word to your friends and family as well.

We really shouldn't support this. Spiderman fans get true to form material and we get nothing we recognize. I certainly will not be in the theatre to see this.

Don't think I'm trying to defend this TF movie, but Spiderfans took it in the ass, too, just not as hard as we did/are getting. There were plenty of changes made in the Spider-Man films, such as the costume (new spider on back and chest, addition of silver lines instead of black one, 'scale' pattern under lines, and more importantly in SM3, NOT using the Alien Costume, which is legendary), the Green Goblin having some kind of robot suit, Peter not doing those Human Spider circus-type acts, the spider which bit Peter being some kind of experiment and not radioactive, web being shot from the wrists and not wrist-mounted web launcher gadgets, other stuff from 2 I don't remember/stuff from 3 I haven't seen yet, etc.

Then again, at least there wasn't the addition of out-of-character lines, which frankly would have been easy. Prime saying stupid stuff like 'my bad' and whatnot is like Peter Parker saying 'How do I shot web?' in SM1 when he was on top of that building, learning now to web-swing.

Compared to Spider-Fans, yes, we did get pwned. But let's not forget what they have gone through!

(My apologies for this smart-ass post. This was in no way intended to defend the 2007 Transformers movie.)

I suspect that after this movie comes out, it get the Transformers version of the Phantom Edit.

*Sighs* I wish I had $150 million dollors to make a Transformers movie. I would have to change some of the elements in it so it is a little more believable. But what would be too much? I love G 1 Transformers almost to the complete exclusion of the other series, but I would never do the boxy look. Something kind of like this, but with very recognizable G1 elements. Prime would keep the faceplate, and the mouth pictured on him now would go on Megatron.

If I didn't know Prime, or know the premise of this movie, it almost looks as if Prime is looking to eat Spike instead of talking to him.

demarcusgd wrote:You know in all honesty, I'm just tired about this whole movie thing. I'm tired of all the debating, I mean really G1 purists, they stopped caring about what you think as soon as production started. If you're that ticked about it, don't go... If they really cared, you think Starscream would've looked like THAT?! And I'm tired of the Opinion Police, who ALWAYS have to evoke the, "It's just a movie based on stupid toy/comic/cartoon" defense, or feel the need to get overly defensive when a diehard fan expresses discontent. Yeah, come up with a new defense guys, it's two years past old.

I'm not pleased with a lot of the decisions of this film, but I'm going to give it a try, the same way, I gave Robots in Disguise, Beast Machines, and Armada, a try... hey, at least it keeps the brand alive.

QFT!

For Gondor! wrote:Grimshock wrote:
I encourage anyone who is disappointed with how we've been treated or the designs or the inappropriate alternate modes or anything else to NOT go see this movie. Spread the word to your friends and family as well.

We really shouldn't support this. Spiderman fans get true to form material and we get nothing we recognize. I certainly will not be in the theatre to see this.


I won't pay to see in the theatre either. It's a sham of a Transformers movie.

You know, it's ignorant statements like this that get under my skin. I'm with Seibs on this, if you either A) Don't see it or B) Illegally download it you've got absolutely NO RIGHT TO BITCH. But I'm gonna go one step further, it's foolish crap like that will end up bringing down the whole franchise. Hate to bust the bubble on the those-who-want-this-to fail-so-a-better-movie-can-be-made crowds fantasy world, but if this flops so you can say "HA, told you so" kiss TFs good-bye. Hasbro won't look at it like "OH, this didn't do so well, so let's give the franchise to someone else so the fans will approve", nope, it be more like "Well this didn't do well, were not making any money on TFs, so it's time to pull the plug." Why do think the new animated series is slated for '08, not just for development time. They're gonna wait to see if the movie does well to see if it can still draw in money.

I mean come on, when has Hasbro ever given us what we want. Look how long it took to get a Reissue Soundwave for craps sake. Now, I am no where near slammin' people's opinions here, I don't agree with everything they've done to this movie. But I'll be first in line to see it. It's Transformers, it's a movie, and some stuff looks cool. My $10 is not just going to support the movie, but TFs as a whole. So, while all you nay-sayers will probably never be convinced to see, let alone support this movie, all of you in the end will have no right to bitch if the movie flops and Hasbro pulls the plug on TFs.

**Me and my high-horse step off of soapbox now**

For Gondor! wrote:

Grimshock wrote:I encourage anyone who is disappointed with how we've been treated or the designs or the inappropriate alternate modes or anything else to NOT go see this movie. Spread the word to your friends and family as well.

We really shouldn't support this. Spiderman fans get true to form material and we get nothing we recognize. I certainly will not be in the theatre to see this.

I won't pay to see in the theatre either. It's a sham of a Transformers movie.

Wouldn't that scare them off from making any more Transformers movies?

What's most depressing to me is that we even seem split on the whole Prime/face shield thing as well now. No wonder why the movie guys came up with some of the crap they did. If the fans can't collectively stand behind something (like we did with Peter Cullen), how they hell could they have possibly made choices to please the masses? It's very frustrating to read through this thread and see how all over the board we are as fans.

The movie is what it is now. There's not much that can change with it between now and July 4th. It's unfortunate that some of the choices were made for this movie. But looking at this fractured fandom with so many drastically varying tastes is explanation enough as to why the decisions were made the way they were with this movie.

My only hope is that the average movie-goer loves the movie and doesn't care about all of these things that we are so passionate about. If that's the case, then the movie folks were right and I was wrong. If that's not the case, I hope it makes just enough money that they decide to do a sequel and will consult with some true fans in the future regarding what they could avoid doing wrong in a sequel.

1337W422102 wrote:Don't think I'm trying to defend this TF movie, but Spiderfans took it in the ass, too, just not as hard as we did/are getting. There were plenty of changes made in the Spider-Man films, such as the costume (new spider on back and chest, addition of silver lines instead of black one, 'scale' pattern under lines, and more importantly in SM3, NOT using the Alien Costume, which is legendary), the Green Goblin having some kind of robot suit, Peter not doing those Human Spider circus-type acts, the spider which bit Peter being some kind of experiment and not radioactive, web being shot from the wrists and not wrist-mounted web launcher gadgets, other stuff from 2 I don't remember/stuff from 3 I haven't seen yet, etc.

What do you mean "NOT using the Alien Costume"?

The rest I consider aesthetic changes that are either really minor or don't do anything to truly alter the characters of Spider-Man or the Green Goblin in the first place. Honestly, how does it actually make Spider-Man different by having it be an experimental spider instead of a radioactive one?

Seibertron wrote:What's most depressing to me is that we even seem split on the whole Prime/face shield thing as well now. No wonder why the movie guys came up with some of the crap they did. If the fans can't collectively stand behind something (like we did with Peter Cullen), how they hell could they have possibly made choices to please the masses? It's very frustrating to read through this thread and see how all over the board we are as fans.

And that's my point of why they can't listen to fans. There is no unified front on anything.

The Paragon of Virtue wrote:

1337W422102 wrote:Don't think I'm trying to defend this TF movie, but Spiderfans took it in the ass, too, just not as hard as we did/are getting. There were plenty of changes made in the Spider-Man films, such as the costume (new spider on back and chest, addition of silver lines instead of black one, 'scale' pattern under lines, and more importantly in SM3, NOT using the Alien Costume, which is legendary), the Green Goblin having some kind of robot suit, Peter not doing those Human Spider circus-type acts, the spider which bit Peter being some kind of experiment and not radioactive, web being shot from the wrists and not wrist-mounted web launcher gadgets, other stuff from 2 I don't remember/stuff from 3 I haven't seen yet, etc.

What do you mean "NOT using the Alien Costume"?

The rest I consider aesthetic changes that are either really minor or don't do anything to truly alter the characters of Spider-Man or the Green Goblin in the first place. Honestly, how does it actually make Spider-Man different by having it be an experimental spider instead of a radioactive one?

Seibertron wrote:What's most depressing to me is that we even seem split on the whole Prime/face shield thing as well now. No wonder why the movie guys came up with some of the crap they did. If the fans can't collectively stand behind something (like we did with Peter Cullen), how they hell could they have possibly made choices to please the masses? It's very frustrating to read through this thread and see how all over the board we are as fans.

And that's my point of why they can't listen to fans. There is no unified front on anything.

By 'Alien Costume' I mean the classic Simple Plain Black with Large White New Spider.

Hey, I wasn't saying I was for nor against those changes! And replacing a radioactive spider with a modified spider does seem like a relatively minor change, one that is much less important that the complete overhauls the Transformers have been subjected to.

I'm kind of indifferent to the whole mouth thing because to me its just a small piece of the larger issue; I don't think that the people behind this movie had any sort of real respect for the source material.
Bay has said that he didn't want to do anything that looked blocky because he felt it wouldn't look real. I'm an artist too, and I can sympathize with the need to express what you feel works, especially in film. But why change everything else? Why make everything else virtually unrecognizable??
I've worked in the animation industry, and yes, it is by no means an easy process to make a film. It is also extremely difficult to deal with such a popular franchise, and the decisions you make are bound to piss people off no matter how hard you try. The key is to stay as close to and respect the source material as much as possible. Peter Jackson has shown how to do this. Yes, lots of fans weren't happy with some of the changes he made. However, the love and dedication he put into staying as faithful to the book as possible are plain as day. There was no one set way for the characters visual appearances since the descriptions came from a narrative, but PJ stayed true to what was there; we knew who was who and what was what.
Transformers and LOTR are apples and oranges respectively, but where they meet is that they are franchises that have deeply touched and inspired millions. Transformers deserved the level of respect that was given to LOTR, but it hasn't gotten it because of people who take a derogatory attitude towards cartoons and toy franchises. The franchise was never cheesy, it had an engaging story that hooked people of all ages, and characters that were believable and compelling and powerfully symbollic. Superman might have had his blue and white energy suit, and Spidey his black costume...but like how long did any of those last? Especially when you take a look at the entire history of the characters and how people remember them today? You just can't f**k with an icon. Period.
Sure, the film isn't out yet, but when the audience already sees just how much you'ved f****d with their icons, you've already started a process of estrangement. You've already given people a reason not to like it because you're actions have shown that you're insensitive to what they love, no matter how much you say to the contrary.

1337W422102 wrote:By 'Alien Costume' I mean the classic Simple Plain Black with Large White New Spider.

Hey, I wasn't saying I was for nor against those changes! And replacing a radioactive spider with a modified spider does seem like a relatively minor change, one that is much less important that the complete overhauls the Transformers have been subjected to.

For some reason I just don't think the bright white would have looked right on the big screen, and that's where a lot of the changes come from. I didn't like the movie Goblin suit at first, but don't have a problem with it anymore, mainly because Willem Dafoe shines threw with the Norman Osborne/Green Goblin character.

I wasn't saying you were for or against the changes. I'm saying the key is to get the character across through behavior, not looks. Visual changes won't seem like much at all if he still acts like Prime.