Star Trek: The Next Thread

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Star Trek: The Next Thread

Postby Convoy » Fri Sep 18, 2015 12:25 pm

I just watched Star Trek: The Motion Picture again after I had done some research on the Borg.

First off, the #1 greatest thing to come out of TMP is the theme song by Jerry Goldsmith.

I read the New Star Trek Thread and wanted to comment but didn't want to necrobump a thread from just before the live action movie reboot known as Star Trek.
IMHO, it was a good action film with elements of Star Trek sprinkled in.
The third TWOK (Into Darkness) killed it for me the moment Khan teleported to Kronos.
I mean, I can deal with, "This is not your father's Trek." but there are still in-universe rules to be followed.

As for my first point, is the Borg origin ever exposed in canon on screen? TMP really feels like the precursor.
Voyager-6 is a mechanical probe built by man to gather information and report.
Once it reported it gained a willing living specimen.
I can see V'Ger starting to say we instead of I after that incident. (It's like marriage!)

Lots of green in TMP. Feels like a hint.
Is there anything in canon that disproves it? I've seen every episode of every series but I may have missed or forgotten it.

tldr: how about that new movie next year? 50th anniversary?

edit = spelling
Last edited by Convoy on Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Star Trek: The Next Thread

Postby prjkt » Sat Sep 19, 2015 12:27 am

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interesting thoughts there... V'ger being the precursor to the Borg... however, events in Star Trek: Enterprise kinda make that impossible (linear) time-line wise.
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Re: Star Trek: The Next Thread

Postby Samsonator » Sat Sep 19, 2015 1:54 am

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I think I recall something from one of the novels (so, not really a good source of canon, but interesting nonetheless) that mentioned that V'ger encountered the Borg homeworld, and that was how it became sentient.
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Re: Star Trek: The Next Thread

Postby Burn » Sat Sep 19, 2015 2:01 am

Samsonator wrote:I think I recall something from one of the novels (so, not really a good source of canon, but interesting nonetheless) that mentioned that V'ger encountered the Borg homeworld, and that was how it became sentient.

It may have been comics, but I remember it as well. Yes, it was Borg tampering that caused sentience.
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Re: Star Trek: The Next Thread

Postby fenrir72 » Sat Sep 19, 2015 4:33 am

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Convoy wrote:I just watched Star Trek: The Motion Picture again after I had done some research on the Borg.

First off, the #1 greatest thing to come out of TMP is the theme song by Jerry Goldsmith.

I read the New Star Trek Thread and wanted to comment but didn't want to necrobumb a thread from just before the live action movie reboot known as Star Trek.
IMHO, it was a good action film with elements of Star Trek sprinkled in.
The third TWOK (Into Darkness) killed it for me the moment Kahn teleported to Kronos.
I mean, I can deal with, "This is not your father's Trek." but there are still in-universe rules to be followed.

As for my first point, is the Borg origin ever exposed in canon on screen? TMP really feels like the precursor.
Voyager-6 is a mechanical probe built by man to gather information and report.
Once it reported it gained a willing living specimen.
I can see V-GER starting to say we instead of I after that incident. (It's like marriage!)

Lots of green in TMP. Feels like a hint.
Is there anything in canon that disproves it? I've seen every episode of every series but I may have missed or forgotten it.

tldr: how about that new movie next year? 50th anniversary?


There was a Novel written by Willaim Shatner dealing with this. It isn't canon iirc. It sort of explains that Kirk DID survive "Generations" but with a certain "wrinkle" and it linked the Borg to V'ger.
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Re: Star Trek: The Next Thread

Postby Burn » Sat Sep 19, 2015 4:53 am

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Re: Star Trek: The Next Thread

Postby Convoy » Sat Sep 19, 2015 7:16 pm

prjkt wrote:interesting thoughts there... V'ger being the precursor to the Borg... however, events in Star Trek: Enterprise kinda make that impossible (linear) time-line wise.

Ah, yes. That pesky time travel incident and the frozen drones.
You'll forgive me for not remembering anything from Enterprise as I actively try to forget it.

As for Memory-Beta, I generally try to avoid it simply because it's non-canon and you end up with wacky things like the USS ÜberEnterprise (NCC-1701-∞)
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/USS_UberEnterprise

Thanks for the link though, Burn. Now I'm wondering if I heard the V'Ger/Borg link before, forgot, then remembered while watching TMP again.

There's a TOS episode airing on broadcast as I write this post. Gotta share the fun quote.

Kirk standing over a woman lying in bed. To woman.
"Now you know the indignity of being a woman!" -Kirk

Okay, it was just after a mind transfer with the woman so it wasn't technically Kirk making those words come out his mouth. Still funny though!
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Re: Star Trek: The Next Thread

Postby Insurgent » Sun Sep 20, 2015 9:24 am

That Shatner book is called The Return. And technically, Kirk didn't survive Generations. What happened was the granddaughter of the Romulan Commander from Balance of Terror teamed up with a group of Borg to steal Kirk's corpse from the grave on Veridian, ressurect him with Borg tech and set him off to wreck havoc with the Federation. And she used Kirk as a sort of personal vendetta for what he did to her granddad. This book does link V'Ger to the Borg, as since Spock mind melded with V'Ger, he has a lingering presence of the collective in his mind. I forget how this plays into the story as it's been years since I read that book.


As for the V'ger/Borg connection, it's a theory that's been around as long as the Borg themselves. Roddenberry himself even hinted that there might be a connection there, but he never outright confirmed anything. Also, Borg origins on screen have never been revealed, though plenty of contradiction sources in the various other media.


Of the Borg origins, all we know is: One time they were fully organic (The Queen states this in First Contact.)

They have been around an extremely long time (The Vadwuaar state they knew of the Borg before their hibernation millenia ago, but they were just a minor neusance at that time).


So if there is a connection between V'ger and the Borg, it's possible V'Ger met the Borg and they are the ones that repaired it, but it's impossible outside time travel for V'Ger to be the originator of the Borg.
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Re: Star Trek: The Next Thread

Postby RAR » Mon Sep 21, 2015 6:07 am

If I was being mischievous I would say that the sentient AI/Machine society that was on StarGate SG1 rebuilt V'Ger :)
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Re: Star Trek: The Next Thread

Postby Ironhidensh » Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:56 pm

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I have no love (or hatred) for TOS, I was always a TNG kid. So I love the new movies. Feels like a fresh coat of paint on an old car.
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Re: Star Trek: The Next Thread

Postby Convoy » Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:32 pm

Insurgent wrote:That Shatner book is called The Return. And technically, Kirk didn't survive Generations. What happened was the granddaughter of the Romulan Commander from Balance of Terror teamed up with a group of Borg to steal Kirk's corpse from the grave on Veridian, ressurect him with Borg tech and set him off to wreck havoc with the Federation. And she used Kirk as a sort of personal vendetta for what he did to her granddad. This book does link V'Ger to the Borg, as since Spock mind melded with V'Ger, he has a lingering presence of the collective in his mind. I forget how this plays into the story as it's been years since I read that book.


As for the V'ger/Borg connection, it's a theory that's been around as long as the Borg themselves. Roddenberry himself even hinted that there might be a connection there, but he never outright confirmed anything. Also, Borg origins on screen have never been revealed, though plenty of contradiction sources in the various other media.


Of the Borg origins, all we know is: One time they were fully organic (The Queen states this in First Contact.)

They have been around an extremely long time (The Vadwuaar state they knew of the Borg before their hibernation millenia ago, but they were just a minor neusance at that time).


So if there is a connection between V'ger and the Borg, it's possible V'Ger met the Borg and they are the ones that repaired it, but it's impossible outside time travel for V'Ger to be the originator of the Borg.

Well, that's pretty much the best answer I could hope for.

We could take it one step further, we could start a time travel thread, or we could talk other Trek.
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Re: Star Trek: The Next Thread

Postby Insurgent » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:58 am

Here's a Borg fact from a book. The whale probe encountered some cubes and was attacked by them on its way to earth. This damaged it and was why it didn't realise it was damaging earth with its signal.


But a question. Why are people OK with the genesis device and its use of protomatter, but not OK with red matter?
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Re: Star Trek: The Next Thread

Postby Stuartmaximus » Fri Sep 25, 2015 4:17 am

Motto: ""i hate to love....& love to hate!""
well I've seen all the episodes so far of

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& it's a pity they couldn't introduce a Borg origin story within it(as far as I believe...they've no intentions of), of which TOS couldn't do(for the obvious reason that the Borg were never even thought up at that time!) although since then...First Contact & an episode of Enterprise(sort of a slight continuation from events of First Contact) introduced the notion that the borg DO exist BEFORE the time that the original series is set! hence my notion as to why Continues could've done an episode with the Borg in it(or could still do one).


& this I believe features at least one Borg in it(if not more)

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although (to me anyway) it kinda plays out a bit like another scifi show called Dark Matter!

or even Babylon 5 Legend Of The Rangers(if anyone has seen that?)

it definitely has those kind of elements within it
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Re: Star Trek: The Next Thread

Postby RAR » Fri Sep 25, 2015 6:24 am

If I have one small request of anyone thinking of making a Star Trek "fan show" please in the name of all that is holy have the costumes fitted to the actors - it's insanely distracting that their clothing does not fit 80% of the cast in Renegades.

Oh and having someone wearing Spectacles in that time period is super distracting too.

I wonder if they can do some begging and get some one to redo some of the backgrounds on renegades too some of the city scenes are not even up to 1990's standards. a matt painting would have been more convincing that what we see.

Also what's with that Guy from the Alien Nation TV series (and Enterprise) being hired so much ?
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Re: Star Trek: The Next Thread

Postby Galvamegs » Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:13 pm

Star Trek: The Original Series and Star Trek: The Next Generation are two classics. They will live on forever in syndication. Why not the other ones?
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Re: Star Trek: The Next Thread

Postby RAR » Tue Sep 29, 2015 1:15 pm

Deep Space Nine is a slow burn show - Much of the early seasons are painfully dull.

Voyager is for me a Guilty pleasure - I know it's stupid I know Katheryn Janeway is completely crazy and belongs in a penal colony not in an Admiral's chair... but there is a air or restrained insanity to the whole show I enjoy.

( I realise it's fashionable to hate it but I don't so sorry about that)

Speaking of which I also rather like 'Enterprise' too - Again the Captain is a nut job but I like the cast a lot shame they cancelled it just as it was becoming broadly more enjoyable.

I hate to say it but I've likely rewatched the last two more than I have The original series - I've not even seen the HD versions at all yet. (other than clips).

Deep Space Nine is a tricky one - as it's both the best and the worst show at the same time - the best in that it actually (towards the end) tells a story - the worst in that it bores you silly waiting for something to happen. That said it's still not as boring as Babylon 5's last season was.
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Re: Star Trek: The Next Thread

Postby Galvamegs » Tue Sep 29, 2015 1:38 pm

Are the 'Q' the most powerful beings in the Star Trek universe?
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Re: Star Trek: The Next Thread

Postby Ironhidensh » Wed Sep 30, 2015 7:04 pm

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Re: Star Trek: The Next Thread

Postby Galvamegs » Wed Sep 30, 2015 7:07 pm

Ironhidensh wrote:No.


Could you be more general?
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Re: Star Trek: The Next Thread

Postby Ironhidensh » Wed Sep 30, 2015 7:12 pm

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Re: Star Trek: The Next Thread

Postby RAR » Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:44 pm

Star Trek is a bit fuzzy on how powerful the Prophets actually are - but I do recall Q said that he wouldn't mess with them.

If there is someone more powerful than a Q they'd have to be some being that had a more broad identity so they were pan dimensional and pan spacial and so anything Q did wouldn't have much effect on them.

Star Trek has also been a bit vague on the ultimate fates on the "Higher beings" seen in The Original Series (most or all of which are less powerful than 'a Q' or 'the Q') sometimes it's been said Q killed them sometimes it's said they evolved to a higher plane of existence to get away from the Q, but it's pretty much been stated in off screen sources that bar perhaps the Organians they are not around any more and even the Organians may have moved house.

Q can be killed though or erased from existence. it has been implied that the most Powerful Q "Potentially" at least is Q's Youngest Son.

I suppose what we'd be looking for to be more powerful than a Q would be something like Marvel's Eternity.
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Re: Star Trek: The Next Thread

Postby Galvamegs » Thu Oct 01, 2015 1:15 am

Or the Beyonder.
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Re: Star Trek: The Next Thread

Postby Stuartmaximus » Thu Oct 01, 2015 2:21 am

Motto: ""i hate to love....& love to hate!""
Like the Borg that's another point you've just raised! :that the Q obviously existed around about the time of the original series!(the only being that came close was Charlie in Charlie X) & maybe even before that(Enterprise) but yet again the reason for the omission of that race in the original series was coz they had never thought that up at the time! although it still doesn't excuse why Enterprise didn't feature an episode with Q in it even though they had the borg!

Speaking of Q not appearing in the original series....they could kinda still rectify that I s'pose......with the Web based series....Star Trek Continues!(if they so chose to do so! but it's highly unlikely that they will!).
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Re: Star Trek: The Next Thread

Postby Insurgent » Thu Oct 01, 2015 3:37 am

Farpoint was first contact with the Q. Enterprise did right not to include them. The Borg were a time travel incident closing a dodgy time loop that was created from First Contact and explains why the Raven was out looking for Borg before first contact in Q Who (changed timeline). They handled the Organians correctly, a one shot episode where first contact was not officially made and the organians themselves kept things low key. This makes it easy to write them without disrupting the timeline.

No Q is low key. Short of a reset button to make everyone forget, it would disrupt too much. Frankly, I'd rather they didn't do Q at all. Voyager already messed them up. And if they did bring in a Q, Coto would be the only one I trust to actually do it properly.
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Re: Star Trek: The Next Thread

Postby Mkall » Thu Oct 01, 2015 9:48 am

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The Q trilogy of books dealt with all those other supernatural beings quite nicely, even tying in some TOS events. They were all mostly 'on the sidelines' so to speak.

Real good series, I think some of those events were mentioned in future books too.
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