The Energon Pub

[RAR]

Double post error please take no notice of this post.

[Shadowman]

and potentially Palpatine use his Sith powers to remotely kill Padme.

Nope. Crushed trachea from the Force Choke Anakin put her in, according to Lucas himself.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

and potentially Palpatine use his Sith powers to remotely kill Padme.

Nope. Crushed trachea from the Force Choke Anakin put her in, according to Lucas himself.

and that pretty much contradicts what was said in the film.

from the script.
MEDICAL DROID: Medically, she is completely healthy. For reasons we can’t explain, we are losing her.

OBI-WAN: She’s dying?

MEDICAL DROID: We don’t know why. She has lost the will to live. We need to operate quickly if we are to save the babies.


if it really was a "Crushed trachea" then the medical droids should have been able to detect that.................they may still not have been able to save her, but they would have known what she was dieing of.

stuff like this is why i say statements made outside thew fiction, even by the creators, is worthless

[fenrir72]

and potentially Palpatine use his Sith powers to remotely kill Padme.

Nope. Crushed trachea from the Force Choke Anakin put her in, according to Lucas himself.

and that pretty much contradicts what was said in the film.

from the script.
MEDICAL DROID: Medically, she is completely healthy. For reasons we can’t explain, we are losing her.

OBI-WAN: She’s dying?

MEDICAL DROID: We don’t know why. She has lost the will to live. We need to operate quickly if we are to save the babies.


if it really was a "Crushed trachea" then the medical droids should have been able to detect that.................they may still not have been able to save her, but they would have known what she was dieing of.

stuff like this is why i say statements made outside thew fiction, even by the creators, is worthless

That needs to be clarified alright. Before reading this I had assumed Padme died of a broken heart (it's a real condition people.......there are proven cases when mates die a few hours or days after their significant other dies) due to Anakin's rage/fit when he "force" strangled her. So Lucas mentioned a crushed trachea......was that to emphasize Anakin's irreversible "Fall"?

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

and potentially Palpatine use his Sith powers to remotely kill Padme.

Nope. Crushed trachea from the Force Choke Anakin put her in, according to Lucas himself.

and that pretty much contradicts what was said in the film.

from the script.
MEDICAL DROID: Medically, she is completely healthy. For reasons we can’t explain, we are losing her.

OBI-WAN: She’s dying?

MEDICAL DROID: We don’t know why. She has lost the will to live. We need to operate quickly if we are to save the babies.


if it really was a "Crushed trachea" then the medical droids should have been able to detect that.................they may still not have been able to save her, but they would have known what she was dieing of.

stuff like this is why i say statements made outside thew fiction, even by the creators, is worthless

That needs to be clarified alright. Before reading this I had assumed Padme died of a broken heart (it's a real condition people.......there are proven cases when mates die a few hours or days after their significant other dies) due to Anakin's rage/fit when he "force" strangled her. So Lucas mentioned a crushed trachea......was that to emphasize Anakin's irreversible "Fall"?

the only clarification needed is in the viewers mind set.
meaning people need to accept that if its something said in AN INTERVIEW its not canon.

[RAR]

It's a matter of which bits you decide to "Notice" more.

Palpatine's actions are suspicious enough to get people wondering if there was more to them that is immediately self - evident.

1) He says that he sense that Lord Vader is in Danger 'before' he's actually wounded. He also shows he's pretty good at 'Foreseeing' in ROTJ.

2) He'd know Padme for longer than Anakin and yet he can sense Vader from light years of distance using the Dark Side... implying there is not reason he couldn't sense her if she has at least some strength to give him a focus point.

3) He explicitly implies in the Opera House that he learned all there was to learn from his master and that his master is/was Darth Plagius

4) Plagius had the 'Power over life and Death' suggesting that if Midiclorians can be influenced to create life they can also be influenced to kill someone - and would leave little obvious trace as a result too.

5) As good as Palpatine is at visions he's not perfect either as he saw nothing of Leia just "The Son of Skywalker".. so that explains or suggests that he could be killing Padme remotely to give vader no way back and to suggest to him it was his fault - yet also be unaware that she'd give Birth or perhaps very aware.. we can only guess at that.


The reason I mention all this is that is an argument you can make with the material on screen - if a future sequel writer wanted to go there at all. I'd say the ability to kill some one at a great distance would be a pretty scary Sith power to have.

And since Palpatine "Knows" her as well as any of his colleges in the Senate and is pretty much sure to know the babies are Anakins too he has plenty of ways' in - even if it's only because of the babies being "of Anakin" in some way giving him a focus that way.

Also if she appears to die at birth they could trie to resusitate her - which we don't see and it's successful as Palpatine no longer has the focus of the kids to latch on to her.

This allows the Nurse maid and faking own death idea to also be used at the same time. which in turn a allows Leia to have seen her mothers face and know she was sad.


But as I always say the most important line in Star Wars is Ben Kenobis' "Point of view" line.
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Additional Note: Palpatine's shuttle was pretty fast to get to Mustafa so fast - touch of the last trip in the Falcon there and spaceships in Star Wars being 'as fast as they need to be'.

[Shadowman]

Nnnnnope, apparently I'm the jackass here. Apparently that was just a fanon thing. No wonder it made significantly less sense the more I thought about it, though that would explain why I thought Lucas said it.

[Ironhidensh]

Leia remembering her mother's facencomes from when Lucas had different plans for what happened to momma Skywalker. She was originally supposed to survive the birth and only give up Luke, going to live with Bail (if I remember my history right) then she died when Leia was a child or toddler. I believe at one point Lucas even planned to edit it out of the special edition, but nixed that plan as his major edits were all ready drawing much heat from the first two films.

RAR, if you don't like Star Wars, or JJ, just come out and say it. You are way over thinking things, and I'd the movies were made in the way you suggest, Galaxy Quest would be more exciting.

Wait, that's not fair, Galaxy Quest is a pretty good **** movie.

Howard the Duck would be more exciting. What happened on the original trilogy is set in stone. Disney is not changing that. They may rewrite the years between the films, but what happened on screen is rock solid cannon. No room for speculation.

[RAR]

Howard the Duck would be more exciting. What happened on the original trilogy is set in stone. Disney is not changing that. They may rewrite the years between the films, but what happened on screen is rock solid cannon. No room for speculation.

I don't think I was suggesting anyone should edit the Prequels or the original trilogy.
I was just pointing out the idea of "point of view" and unknown things and Character Opinion.

For example many people cry B.S. at the whole "Padme dies of a Broken heart" thing it's simply not satisfying to people.
As for the Movies being Canon - well I don't know if to laugh or cry at that comment - name me any other series that has been changed as much as Star Wars ?

The Clone Wars Cartoon regularly changed established Characters listed races, and origins on a whim too. Things like if Darth Maul is painted or Tattooed or naturally red have even changed. The appearance of Bothans has changed several times - it used to be the case that Hybrids were not thought to be possible in the Star Wars Universe and now they are.

Heck there is the huge Elephant in the room "Midiclorians", not to mention Tarkin Giving Vader orders, Vader being described as a dark Jedi or Jedi Knight or Fallen Jedi Knight and so on long time before anyone ever thought to call him a "Sith" as for most of Star Wars existence no one gave much thought to the line about him being a Dark lord of the Sith or what that was.

Most viewers had not even heard of the Sith until the prequels. And I don't think the Emperor was even said to be a sith until much later either.
So things change, things are added (and removed) and altered.
I expect Rogue One will be doing an awful lot of that too...

My Speculating about the Future direction of the franchise isn't meant to be taken as a hatred of it - any more than me complaining about Star trek or Transformers in some ways means I dislike them either, criticism, comment and speculation is just part of the way I consume things.

If I wasn't interested I'd not speak about it at all - Notice how I hardly ever mention Marvel Movies or indeed the Live Action Transformers Movies either - not because I dislike them - I'm just not "That interested" in them to want to over analyse them like I might Star Wars.
It's not like I'm finding many people who want to talk about the obscure corners of Sci Fi I might be interested in talking about so Star Wars is going to be pretty much the only game in town in that regard.

-----

As for JJ I have no strong opinions either way - he's a good director to hire for the studios who are scared of taking a risk - I would say there is a bit of an air of E.A. about the guy (to use a Videogame analogy). But luckily I realised Lost was going nowhere long before everyone else realised that it was indeed going no where.

I do find it interesting sometimes to notice the projects he's been involved in and how people react to what he does or does not do - I suspect a lot of his problems are down to the formulaic writers he insists on hiring though.

lets just say I expect Episode 8 to be a lot better a whole lot better. I really don't want Star Wars to go the same way as Aliens, Star Trek, Terminator or Indiana Jones - and in the case of most of those for the same reasons - remaking the same Movie over and over. But then when people turned their noses up at Terminator Salvation I think that helped cement the idea in many peoples head that you can't take a risk. or tell a different kind of story in the same Universe.

Again that is why Rogue One is so important - as that by it's very nature should be a 'Heist Movie' in Space - I do worry it may even up being to comedic and to Suicide Squad or Guardians of the Galaxy like... heck I have this horrible thought it might be played for laughs even more than Ant Man. Homour in a Movie is fine to some extent - but not when ever one in a Movie has to be "characters" in that sense of the term.

Star Wars isn't supposed to be "That funny" - not in the Poe Dameron flippant way for every single character if that Disney Channel trope becomes to evident in Future Star Wars Movies (Lines like the 'Cute Boyfriend' Line - not so good really) I will be sitting in my chair with my eyebrow firmly raised for sure.
Anyway yes I like Star Wars, No I don't hate JJ, and yes I do think it can and should be both better and more diverse in the templates it applies to the material and should not be a remake upon remake to a set formula (like a Vintage Flash Gordon Movie serial).

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P.S. - I like Howard the Duck, as it's weird - I think it's like Shakespeare if you don't get the jokes you are bored - if you do you will enjoy it more and like Shakespeare.
Howard the Duck is complete Filth !!! That is why I like it.



I realise the prequels are compared to Shakespeare in some ways ; I bet you never expected someone would compare Howard The Duck to Shakespeare though ?!!

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

The Clone Wars Cartoon regularly changed established Characters listed races, and origins on a whim too.

im very interested in hearing more about these "so called" changes.

what was changed, what was the source of the "original" info....many more questions.

if you dont mind answering that is.

[RAR]

I'm not saying any changes or revisions in the Clone Wars are huge - but they are there.

I can't claim to any great knowledge of the Clone Wars you'd be better off asking someone who followed it more closely.

But off the top of my head they changed the previously listed Alien race of listed Characters with Blue skin a couple of times to another blue skinned race previously applied to that character (including amusingly enough the one played by George Lucas himself).

I believe Yellow Skinned Zabracks may be an invention of the Clone Wars but I don't have that info in front of me to check.

Other recent "Revision" is the idea that Sith 'only' use red Lightsaber blades - that isn't quite correct but it's still said as if it is more often than not the case - but that is a recent addition based on observation.

There was always the implication that Yoda or Palpatine wouldn't have used a Lightsaber - until they were shown that they did - but it later was proved that they did try to give the puppet Yoda a Lightsaber but it was not able to hold it properly so it was dropped as an idea... that may even be why he drops in in Episode III

But for most of the last 40 years up until then many you might have you ask would say Yoda doesn't or didn't use a lightsaber (until the prequels came along) not quite a change so much as a 'change back' perhaps.

Other changes would be the Number of fingers some characters/types of alien have changes between movies some have clawed hands in one movie and normal 5 fingered hands in another - this had to be reduxed as a 'racial variation' afterwards.

Midiclorians is the obvious large revison as well as much of what Ben Kenobi says to luke, Ther character of General Grevious is completely weakened in the Clone Wars to reflect how low rent he is in the Movie when he was "supposed" to be injured but rather than show him before that still being a Badass Jedi Killer (from the previous now defunct cartoon) they simply made him mostly useless before his injury as well. A change - perhaps or just bad writing maybe.

The Videogame The Force Unleashed takes some liberties with the back story of the rebellion, it also amped up the force abilities to 11 to an almost Universe breaking extent - but then hey it means the Other "Starkiller" is so stupidly powerful Rey looks quite reasonable now by comparison.

Kyle Katern's origin was changed a fair bit too, so was the origin of the Vehicle Slave-1 changed by the Prequels - by virtue of it now being Boba's dads vehicle he stole back - that didn't used to be the case he previously made it himself out of what was an old police/security transport (because he liked the cells in it).


The Size of the Death Star has changed a lot over the years and in sources, there is the issue of X-wings not having Hyper drives until they needed them (same with N-1 Starfighters).

Basically the Expanded Universe the immediate back story and production information and the new cartoons all made changes and the list of them is so huge you could go on for weeks about it... the Disambiguation section of Wookiepedia is kept pretty busy.

One more recent example of a "Change" is the prophecy of the chosen one. or at least the explanation of what it is. has been hugely shortened and trimmed back almost as if they are doing that on purpose to make it easier to make use of it in the future again.

The problem there is that the old version is pretty stuck in a lot of peoples minds.

Oh and speaking of huge revisions - I'm not sure the idea of Force Gods (The Daughter/Son/Father) is quite compatible with a New Hope either - but that is still canon (unfortunately).

Anyway when I was browsing Wookiepedia the listing would often come up that said such and such was X-race and is now Y race because someone making the clone wars decided to change it.

It seemed that what happened is if you go look at something like the Prequels Visual Dictionaries or even some of the toys it lists some characters as a certain race and then later when that character or a similar one pops up they've changed it.

Also think on this, there is a certain amount of mental gymnastics one needs to do to not make Yoda a liar as so much of what he said to luke is proven by other (still cannon) Material to not be the case or it's a terminology thing.

Like saying that some Dark Jedi are dark jedi for "reasons" as someone didn't want to spoil the already ruined Rule of Two by calling a Sith a Sith.

I'm wondering if essentially Kylo Ren is a force using Minion and so doesn't get to be a Sith as there can only be two and so on... or are they abandoning the Sith as it's to "Prequels" / 'Old Republic' like - I'll be interested to see how Snoake ultimately gets described - as It isn't so easy to call him a Sith unless you want to again re-write a bunch of stuff.

Rey's ability to speak Droid, or know how to do Force Powers with no training is rather cannon bending too... so if that is never explained I would say that is a big ol Elephant in the room as much as Bad ass Jedi Killer Grievous was after seeing the demolition job they did on him in the Movie and the Clone Wars. (Remember the old Cloen Wars shorts 'used to be' the Official back story to Episode 2 & 3)

-----

None of this is a big deal - I just mentioned it to point out that what is cannon now isn't always likely to stay Cannon - even the things on screen or the explanations for the things on screen are subject to interpretation or revision (or potential future alternative explanations).

This seemed like a decent example to use ...

"Papanoida was originally described as a Wroonian in his Databank entry on the official Star Wars website.[7] His species was later changed to Pantoran following their creation for "Trespass" in the The Clone Wars television series."

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Notluwiski_Papanoida
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Pantoran/Legends
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Wroonian

[Shadowman]

Other recent "Revision" is the idea that Sith 'only' use red Lightsaber blades - that isn't quite correct but it's still said as if it is more often than not the case - but that is a recent addition based on observation.

While some Sith have used Lightsabers other than red (Exar Kun, for instance) it's very uncommon, and red is the signature color of the Sith. (In KOTOR2, one character even asks "Did you go red?" as a way of asking which side of the Force you were on)

[Wigglez]

Other recent "Revision" is the idea that Sith 'only' use red Lightsaber blades - that isn't quite correct but it's still said as if it is more often than not the case - but that is a recent addition based on observation.

While some Sith have used Lightsabers other than red (Exar Kun, for instance) it's very uncommon, and red is the signature color of the Sith. (In KOTOR2, one character even asks "Did you go red?" as a way of asking which side of the Force you were on)

It's because their lightsabers are made with the red crystals that is said to have dark side properties in them. Like they believe their connection with the dark side of the force would be stronger with the red crystals instead of blue or green

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

I'm not saying any changes or revisions in the Clone Wars are huge - but they are there.

I can't claim to any great knowledge of the Clone Wars you'd be better off asking someone who followed it more closely.

so, just to be clear, just about all the "so called" changes you are talking about come from outside the actual films?

I'm different then most fans, i never accepted the tiered canon system that most do with star wars, so to me, no novels,no games, no comics or cartoons are canon....same goes with visual picture books, the "making of" books, interviews of any kind [tv,magazine,news paper] or by any person, actor or creator [even Lucas]....nothing from outside the actual films

my reason for this is something Lucas said once about those kinds of productions, and it was basically "its canon till i decide its not and change it"

so i always looked at that other stuff as trekies do with trek comics,novels and so on.

[RAR]

I'm not critising anyone for not diving into the Expanded Universe (new or old version of it) - I've barely read any Star Wars Comics since the old days of Dark Horse Comics.

The only reason I bring these things up is to point out that sometimes changes happen - sometimes those changes are additions to a later Movie (like mysteriously appearing Hyperdrives in Starfighters), sometimes the Movies are not terribly clear on the details - like why is Leia seemingly second only to Mon Mothma probably equal to Akbar and yet is taking orders from Han Solo on Endor.

She has more experience than Han in Covert ops (the way we look at her now) - but back then she was likely seen as "Just a Girl" and so had to take orders from Han (who at least has some Military training) but in reality Han is middle 30's and she is about 19-20 in Return of the Jedi but he's spent much of the last decade running away from things not into them like Leia. I guess you could argue that one either way.

All I can say is it does make me think - hang on a Mo - "Why is she taking orders from Han" when she out ranks him twice... that said I don't know if they ever give her a rank on screen she's just 'Princess Leia' not General Organa or Deputy Commander of the Rebel Alliance.

I need to see how the General she's giving orders to on Hoth is referring to her and her to him with more care I suppose.

Actually why is she called 'General Leia' in The Force Awakens - sure it's a cute "Pet name" if it' someone like Poe Dameron calling her it to call her that but the problem is that her name is either "General Leia Organa" or if you want to be picky some other variation involving the name Solo or Skywalker.
But Not General Leia - No one called Obi wan Kenobi "General Obi-Wan" it was always "Jedi Kenobi" or "General Kenobi".

Heck I'm not even sure that Han and Leia were even married. (what does the books say on this ? - I need to check). Meaning her proper title would be something like one of these :

"General Organa"
"General Organa-Solo"
"General Solo"
"General Organa-Skywalker"
"General Organa-Skywalker-Solo"
"Princess General Organa"

And so on... 'Princess' makes sense with a First name - but a Military title does not.
They might have got away with Princess-General Leia perhaps because of the Princess part.

The funny thing is - she still a Princess ?

She was hopefully legally adopted so that is all fine (hopefully) but her Mother is dead - ad she would have had the title of Queen wouldn't she - the problem there is I don't think I ever heard Bail Organa refereed to as "King" of anything just as "Senator".
So the "Whole Princess thing" is a bit of a puzzle.

You could argue she isn't a princess any more as she has no planet to be a Princess on (sort of like how Russian or French Royalty were sort of title-less not long after being made homeless), You could argue she is a Princess but one "In Exile" then the issue is does she inherit the title of Queen if her adopted Mother is dead.

These sorts of issues can not be really cleared up in the Movies they require "Expanded Content" to make some sense out of them I feel.

Besides if you only watch the Movies you would be missing things like the names or races ,characters or equipment not explicitly named on screen.

Even the Name "Ewok" isn't actually said in Return of the Jedi.

[Shadowman]

I'm not saying any changes or revisions in the Clone Wars are huge - but they are there.

I can't claim to any great knowledge of the Clone Wars you'd be better off asking someone who followed it more closely.

so, just to be clear, just about all the "so called" changes you are talking about come from outside the actual films?

To be fair, 99% of what we know about Star Wars comes from outside the films.

I'm different then most fans, i never accepted the tiered canon system that most do with star wars, so to me, no novels,no games, no comics or cartoons are canon....same goes with visual picture books, the "making of" books, interviews of any kind [tv,magazine,news paper] or by any person, actor or creator [even Lucas]....nothing from outside the actual films

my reason for this is something Lucas said once about those kinds of productions, and it was basically "its canon till i decide its not and change it"

so i always looked at that other stuff as trekies do with trek comics,novels and so on.

To be fair, Disney agrees with you, the only non-movie from before the buyout that's still canon is Clone Wars.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

All I can say is it does make me think - hang on a Mo - "Why is she taking orders from Han" when she out ranks him twice... that said I don't know if they ever give her a rank on screen she's just 'Princess Leia' not General Organa or Deputy Commander of the Rebel Alliance.

no, she wasnt given a RANK, back then.
and i feel the whole "listening to han" thing was a symptom of the times.

Actually why is she called 'General Leia' in The Force Awakens

who called her that?

Poe called her "General Organa" just about every time, the rest it was just General.
Other people also just called her General even c3po.
Han was the only one to call her "princess" or Leia

The funny thing is - she still a Princess ?

She was hopefully legally adopted so that is all fine (hopefully) but her Mother is dead - ad she would have had the title of Queen wouldn't she - the problem there is I don't think I ever heard Bail Organa refereed to as "King" of anything just as "Senator".

if her adoptive mother had natural children, a daughter or son that marries, the title of queen could have been passed to them.

and no Bail Organa was not refereed to as "King" , but what we learned in the prequels makes it less of a puzzle.Leias real mother was first a "queen" and later a senator.And on her planet of Naboo, the title of queen was an elected position, at the time.

so maybe thew same or similar system was used on alderon

Besides if you only watch the Movies you would be missing things like the names or races ,characters or equipment not explicitly named on screen.

Even the Name "Ewok" isn't actually said in Return of the Jedi.

i said i only accept the movies as canon.

not that i did not partake in the expanded universe at all.
ive read books, comics, played games

1 just dont place any canon value on them

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

I'm not saying any changes or revisions in the Clone Wars are huge - but they are there.

I can't claim to any great knowledge of the Clone Wars you'd be better off asking someone who followed it more closely.

so, just to be clear, just about all the "so called" changes you are talking about come from outside the actual films?

To be fair, 99% of what we know about Star Wars comes from outside the films.

I'm different then most fans, i never accepted the tiered canon system that most do with star wars, so to me, no novels,no games, no comics or cartoons are canon....same goes with visual picture books, the "making of" books, interviews of any kind [tv,magazine,news paper] or by any person, actor or creator [even Lucas]....nothing from outside the actual films

my reason for this is something Lucas said once about those kinds of productions, and it was basically "its canon till i decide its not and change it"

so i always looked at that other stuff as trekies do with trek comics,novels and so on.

To be fair, Disney agrees with you, the only non-movie from before the buyout that's still canon is Clone Wars.

or, 99% of what we "THOUGHT WE KNEW" about Star Wars was never canon.

keep in mind, im not trying to argue or even saay i like the idea.

but after hearing that comment Lucas made about the issue i just couldnt accept anything outside the films as solid canon

and i loved SHADOWS OF THE EMPIRE

[RAR]

I wonder what areas of Wookieepedia are getting the most activity at the moment and why.

I'm sure even those who like the EU have bits of it that they role their eyes at - it might be that Vader's suit was made on the cheap due to hospital budget cuts, or that IG88 had uploaded himself into the DeathStar and was trying to conquer the Galaxy and exterminate Organic beings.

Those things are a tad silly.

Some of the deep back ground stuff from the Old Republic era though is super useful and I think needs to be regarded as important (even if it isn't cannon) as it's two darn useful to not have in some form.

It justifies the "ones" better it makes better explanation of difficulties in Hyperspace Navigation and why (which helps explain why they can loose luke or indeed not know about Star Killer base).

Also like some people I happen to like the Yuzhon Vong. I almost wish they snuck them into Rebels, Also if you are a Palpatine fan and you get the idea he had a greater motive than just a childish desire for power it makes him a better more rounded character if he decided he needed to prepare the Galaxy for a Yuzhon Vong extra-Galactic invasion.. Then the dopey Skywalkers go an ruin things - it's rather poetic really.

By Luke trying to save the Galaxy from Tyrany he actually allows many more Trillions to die when the galaxy is unprepared for a greater threat that the Empire could have handled much better.

But you have to weigh up the numbers killed by the invasion compared to the worlds the Empire might have blown up with the Death Star.

Speaking of which the more recent old Republic's setting and how the Sith hate Alderaan for resisting it makes the destruction of that world more notable too.

I think making a story that makes sense is more important than blatant pandering to either the fans or the General Audience is as - that is what will ultimately make Disney even more Billions in the medium term not a fire and forget piece of seasonal entertainment like the JJ Star Trek Movies are.... that long term does no one any favours.

Short termism can be a horrible error - so can lack of attention to detail be - as with Age of Ultron that dropped the ball on the details of the story.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

All I can say is it does make me think - hang on a Mo - "Why is she taking orders from Han" when she out ranks him twice... that said I don't know if they ever give her a rank on screen she's just 'Princess Leia' not General Organa or Deputy Commander of the Rebel Alliance.

no, she wasnt given a RANK, back then.
and i feel the whole "listening to han" thing was a symptom of the times.

Actually why is she called 'General Leia' in The Force Awakens

who called her that?

Poe called her "General Organa" just about every time, the rest it was just General.
Other people also just called her General even C3P0.
Han was the only one to call her "princess" or Leia

The funny thing is - she still a Princess ?

She was hopefully legally adopted so that is all fine (hopefully) but her Mother is dead - ad she would have had the title of Queen wouldn't she - the problem there is I don't think I ever heard Bail Organa refereed to as "King" of anything just as "Senator".

if her adoptive mother had natural children, a daughter or son that marries, the title of queen could have been passed to them.

and no Bail Organa was not refereed to as "King" , but what we learned in the prequels makes it less of a puzzle.Leias real mother was first a "queen" and later a senator.And on her planet of Naboo, the title of queen was an elected position, at the time.

so maybe thew same or similar system was used on alderon

Besides if you only watch the Movies you would be missing things like the names or races ,characters or equipment not explicitly named on screen.

Even the Name "Ewok" isn't actually said in Return of the Jedi.

i said i only accept the movies as canon.

not that i did not partake in the expanded universe at all.
ive read books, comics, played games

1 just dont place any canon value on them

[RAR]

When consuming a Product I find that I can enjoy that product even if it's subjectively terrible if it gives me "a way in".

Force Awakens does have that in a way but it's the Characters where as another Movie it might be the Technology or premise that is the way in.

I will admit I'm more of a Space ship person than a character person, I can except the Transformers Movies being less than ideal in their implementation, because I honestly really like some of the designs - Like Optimus Prime for example. Similarly I was very visually interested by some of the eccentric Starship classes in Star Trek 2009, or in other Media it might be creature design event the architecture sometimes can be fascinating.

But there has to be something that captures your interest and keeps it that is why Blade Runner is still much discussed today even though on a subjective level it has horrible errors in the plot and structure and is demonstrably quite boring in it's pacing, but the visuals "Just about" manage to trump the problems and make you very forgiving of it.

There will always be Movies that split people like some people can't stand Back to the Future Part II, a reason they often give is that it revisits he 1st Movie to much but like Force Awakens that is trumped by the characters I guess for me.

However the problem I have and will continue to have is a Visual one - and it seems even George Lucas agreed with me, though perhaps not entirely so.

He didn't much like The Force Awakens for being a Visual re-tread, he wanted new location and Aliens and Starships etc...

I'm fine with that - but as I've said before I do respect seeing established races too where it's appropriate for them to be seen. I do not much enjoy the good guys being all Human - as it makes the Aliens look like an Underclass and I don't like that intentional or not there is an undertone there that isn't pleasant.

Even if you can say that is part of the tragedy of Star Wars at the top level it's the likes of the Skywalkers making decisions that effect everyone else then their immediate tier underneath also making such choice which is some sort of military or government - but if you don't show Twilek Rebels or resistance it to me at least gives them second class citizen status and pushes them outside the Democracy or the idea of what they are "supposed" to be fighting for, that may be subconscious, totally accidental, or even some film makers thinking - oh an alien her will spoil the drama as they are just "funny creatures" and yet the did put a 'funny creature' in a dramatic scene in the Force Awakens it just happened to be a laughable puppet.

So I have no Aliens to be interested is if only because the Character design on the new ones are pretty terrible (though I will take a closer look on the home video release) though.

The other thing is even the prequels included each Movie gave you a new Space ship or two to take note of - the only ones in this Movie is one Star Destroyer that is mainly in shadow a lot of the time that they don't even name (yes I know they almost never name the darn things on screen - and it annoys me still). and the transport vessel Leia is in - and even that is pretty ugly.

Star Wars Rebels manages to throw new Spaceships at the screen on a regular basis and that is on a TV budget. The Force Awakens couldn't even be bothered to shove some in the back ground.

That is one of the reasons I say Force Awakens puts me to sleep and is a "hard sit" as there is nothing interesting or new to look at that has not been seen before, except some very sub par aliens.

In short George may be right to some extent - you need to go new places and do new things, perhaps it's a lesson he learned the hard way on Indiana Jones and the last Crusade - and yet went to far the other way on Kingdom of the Crystal Skull.

I don't deny it's a hard line to toe - and I even get why they may want to keep the number of new ships low in a first Movie for mirroring reasons - but even so where is the Modern version of a Y-Wing ?

Even before George mucked about with them the Star wars Movies had a feeling that things were happening around the characters that were unrelated to them - I get the impression watching the Force Awakens that the world exists soley for their plot and disappears when they are not there.

For example no one brings up the Massacre on Jakku again, Maz is forgotten about the second she leaves the screen with her home in ruins, everyone just leaves.

There is also a slight visual issue in that Her home planet the place Luke is and the Resistance Base are all pretty samey looking. not precisely so - but enough to look like they may be on the same planet.

I never had that problem with Yavin IV, Alderaan and Endor. It can be a huge issue with Desert Planets though looking to much like the same place. It hardly helps either when they use design cues from Jabba's Palace on Jakku.

I can but hope future Star Wars Movies are more visually engaging for me.

[ZeroWolf]

I can't quite help but notice you dodged all of sto's responses there Rar...

Also this thing about the main characters being human...George did it for the last six star wars films and even the there was sparse aliens in the rebels. There is also another reason why they are human. So we can relate to them.

Luckily for me, I saw a film that I really enjoyed, I got everything I needed to get out of it.

[RAR]

I wasn't aware I had to counter-critique, offer apology to or acceptance of all replies before making a new post on another subject.? It just so happened that sto_vo_kor_2000 expressed their opinion - I read it but had nothing specific to counter or affirm to it, I totally understand that people consume things in a different way and as I have been watching great many videos on Star Wars lately - I've discovered that it is very much a thing open to interpretation that is why Obi Wan's statements about point of view always give me such a chuckle.

I guess the best analogy is this I would say that to me Captain America : Winter Soldier (despite it's numerous villain depiction flaws) is a better Movie than say Iron Man 2 as it offers more than one thing to latch on to in it.

It has an interpersonal dynamic between Steve and Black Widow and Falcon and with Fury as a part of the plot, it adds to and sets up both at the same time other movies - while for the most part explaining itself along the way, it uses existing idea and locations but also adds new ones while at the same time referring back and respecting the past ones.

I'd say it is an almost perfect sequel (Aside from the bad villain implementation issues that is so common in Marvel Movies)

Captain America Winter Soldier is a movie with a purpose, that me ticks all the boxes of a good sequel.

Force Awakens seems more like a prelude Comic an issue #0 that is just set up for the proper adventures to happen later - they didn't do it properly in my view, it's one of those Movies that on repeated viewings doesn't get better it just shows up even more unanswered questions.

So I guess it comes down to a matter of Trust "Do I trust Disney" - the current answer is likely ask me after Civil War and Guardians 2 and Rogue One - as it stands at the moment I think they have yet to prove they can tell a single story well in Live Action very often as the Universes they play in are either Animated and aimed at a mostly Female or Young Family Audience or part of the Marvel Universe that has no set finishing point.

Star Wars is unique in that it will be 3 parts (at least initially), so the question is do they know what they are doing - Really ?

Lets just say I have reasons to be cautious at this point. but that there are ways out - if they want to take them - but if they don't use some of those and leave things as they are in Episode 7 in Episode 8 if they don't do something to undo the mess they have made (almost to many to list) then the end result will be "Just a Movie" and when we look back on these Movies in 20 years it might not be the Prequels being Mocked but the sequels.

That is the last thing I want to see happen. I don't want to be in the same situation as with Transformers Movies with Star Wars - that would be deeply saddening to me.

If they must destroy 20-30 years of the legacy of the EU to make their life a bit easier then - the very least they can do is make sure what replaces it is worth all that pain to loose all of it both the good and the bad overnight.

Rebels isn't filling me with Hope with it's decent into Fan-fiction territory either.

[RAR]

Since this is a bit of a hot topic but it's also a divisive one so I didn't want to derail an existing thread with it - but I am still interested in peoples thoughts on this.

I'd like to ask is Rey in the Force Awakens a Mary Sue :

If no why not.
If Yes - can it be "Undone" or counter-explained in a satisfactory way either now or in sequels if so how ?

Thanks.

[Hellscream9999]

Since this is a bit of a hot topic but it's also a divisive one so I didn't want to derail an existing thread with it - but I am still interested in peoples thoughts on this.

I'd like to ask is Rey in the Force Awakens a Mary Sue :

If no why not.
If Yes - can it be "Undone" or counter-explained in a satisfactory way either now or in sequels if so how ?

Thanks.

I'd say for the most part, she kinda was a mary sue. We see her struggle to live and get by on (wherever), but once she gets into the falcon, everything just happened a little too easily for her... I mean, maybe she's an expert pilot (falcon chase scene, ect.) and maybe she's an expert marksman, but I think she learned how to use the force a little too quickly and easily.

I understand time and writing constraints, but I remember rolling my eyes a little in the scene where she got into ren's mind - despite how interesting, fascinating and well directed that scene was; but after that, I think it was lessened a little as fin kinda took over in the spotlight - though I do question where he learned how to sword fight so well...

I'm not saying I definitely feel tha she is, and am open to counter arguments