The Energon Pub

[donny1975]

You just dropped a big fly incrusted turd in my Cheerios. Breakfast is ruined. THANKS!

why are you here? you werent supposed to read all that!

Haha! I have to say you made some interesting points, that I at the moment can't nay say completely, lol!

That being said I wonder if a lot what they did sacrifice was due to the fact that the adult collector world already has Herc and Green Giant, albeit not in the same scale...but the quality that adult collectors are looking for...and making a figure to compete with that and be the same 17" to 18" height; would have to be an MP set and would def fall somewhere in the realm of $50.00 to $80.00 per figure (going by similar sized Has/Tak MP figures) so $300.00 to $480.00 for the set...(i.e. Herc or Geen Giant)...

I would however pay the same price of Herc ~500.00 for an official Devy in MP scale and quality!

I would also wonder that maybe another reason has to do with this figure having to be able to appeal to and be simplified enough for the largest demographic, kids from ~6 to teen, on up through all us "older" kids (still a pretty large demopraphic) ...while keeping it in an affordability range for that largest demographic.

How much would the other CW figures had to have sacrificed in order to be the same size as Devy in combined mode? No one knows what the bottom line looks like for Hasbro on this project. Designers can make the best figure in the world except it wouldn't make Hasbro any money because it would be ridiculously expensive and only a limited few would be able to afford it.

I totally agree that Devy has some not so good qualities, but overall I think he is still really cool, and everyone of the younger TF fans in my family would totally dig getting this guy for the holidays or a birthday!

[Cobotron]

I would also wonder that maybe another reason has to do with this figure having to be able to appeal to and be simplified enough for the largest demographic, kids from ~6 to teen, on up through all us "older" kids (still a pretty large demopraphic) ...while keeping it in an affordability range for that largest demographic.

It's this. This this this. And it's not even the kids. It's their parents who are shelling out the dough.

This is Hasbro's ball and chain.

[shajaki]

We all have been seeing it over the last year. Since the Prime line. Heck! Since Cybertron quality has really gone down hill.
I actually, in a way, kind of sympathize with Hasbro. It's probably a hard place to be in. The designers want to go all out, but in the end, TRU, Target, and all the retailers hold all the cards. I'd like to be a fly on the wall just to see the reactions from the designers every time the get a revision due to cost issues. I bet they are pissed. which also means ultimately, they are on our side.

my rebuttal was going to be "but but but... the other CW figures!" but youre right and you made me think of something.

i dont think you can look at it the way i did perse ie: as a pile of voyagers. which theyre not. they stopped being voyagers the moment they tossed them all in one box. its probably an easy sell to say....

"hey, this year our voyagers are going to be rhinox, springer, whirl, sandstorm, skybyte, and roadbuster. and theyll cost 20-25 bucks a piece."

but that wont work in devastators case. you cant sell 6 green incredibly similar construction vehicles, for a payoff that your buyers may never see. their solution: toss them all in one box. but that comes with a hidden sacrifice. you have slap a price tag on it for your retailers, then find a way to fit what you can in that box for that price. so theres inherent limitations required to make the project work.

its unfortunate, but probably the best they could do. considering all that, its a fine job

[Cobotron]

I changed your tune?

[shajaki]

I would also wonder that maybe another reason has to do with this figure having to be able to appeal to and be simplified enough for the largest demographic, kids from ~6 to teen, on up through all us "older" kids (still a pretty large demopraphic) ...while keeping it in an affordability range for that largest demographic.

It's this. This this this. And it's not even the kids. It's their parents who are shelling out the dough.

This is Hasbro's ball and chain.

you nailed a good one there donny

[shajaki]

:shock: I changed your tune?

well, i dunno if it'll make me buy it. but understanding makes me feel better about it

[donny1975]

:shock: I changed your tune?

well, i dunno if it'll make me buy it. but understanding makes me feel better about it

I'm glad some of us are coming to terms with Devy , it's been kind of like grief counseling the last few days in here...

But I agree understanding it makes me feel better about it too!

[Sabrblade]

Sincere question: I see folks saying that "Since these are supposed to be Voyagers, they ought to uphold the standards of Voyagers." My question is, are they really Voyagers?

I mean, sure, they're Voyager-sized at the very least, and were rumored to be Voyagers, but are they officially considered Voyager class figures? Like, does the packaging call them out as being part of the Voyager size class? And if not, did Hasbro themselves use the term "Voyager" at Toy Fair to refer them? And if so, were they using it formally or simply as a casual means to compare their sizes to preexisting size classes?

I ask this because, if they aren't officially Voyagers and are only referred as such for simplicity's sake, then they need not necessarily adhere to the standards expected of ordinary Voyager class figures since they would instead be a unique class of their own.

On a related note, even if they are officially part of the Voyager size class, there is an existing precedent for their being so simple. Recall the 2014 Transformers Prime: Beast Hunters Deluxe and Voyager figures that were more like upscaled Legions and Commanders, yet were still officially considered to be part of the Deluxe and Voyager size classes. These Constructicons strike me as being roughly on par with those figures, and therefore not an isolated case that deserves all of the scorn that they've been receiving.

[Noideaforaname]

They're the size of Voyagers and cost as much as Voyagers and are presented alongside other Voyagers, so I'm counting them as Voyagers.

[Sabrblade]

They're the size of Voyagers and cost as much as Voyagers and are presented alongside other Voyagers, so I'm counting them as Voyagers.

I'm not asking what us fans consider them. I'm asking what they're officially considered.

[Autobot032]

They're the size of Voyagers and cost as much as Voyagers and are presented alongside other Voyagers, so I'm counting them as Voyagers.

I'm not asking what us fans consider them. I'm asking what they're officially considered.

Yes. The packaging and official press release call them Voyagers. They are Voyager Class figures.

[Sabrblade]

They're the size of Voyagers and cost as much as Voyagers and are presented alongside other Voyagers, so I'm counting them as Voyagers.

I'm not asking what us fans consider them. I'm asking what they're officially considered.

Yes. The packaging and official press release call them Voyagers. They are Voyager Class figures.

Thanks.

Then I guess we can consider them similar to the 2014 Beast Hunters Voyagers.

[Autobot032]

They're the size of Voyagers and cost as much as Voyagers and are presented alongside other Voyagers, so I'm counting them as Voyagers.

I'm not asking what us fans consider them. I'm asking what they're officially considered.

Yes. The packaging and official press release call them Voyagers. They are Voyager Class figures.

Thanks.

Then I guess we can consider them similar to the 2014 Beast Hunters Voyagers.

Exactly. It was first reported out of the show in Germany that they were upsized simplified figures akin to Beast Hunters and people weren't sure how to take it, but it was assumed that was the case. Clearly, we know that's exactly what it is, now.

Seems the articulation was kept for Devastator alone and the component bots second.

[SkyWarpt]

You just dropped a big fly incrusted turd in my Cheerios. Breakfast is ruined. THANKS!

why are you here? you werent supposed to read all that!

I actually agree with a lot of what you sad.
Its all very telling of the times. The engineering has come leaps and bounds, but Hasbro has to deal with staying afloat in today's market. Price points, price points, price points! Price of gas, Price of doing business, yadda yadda and a hey hey hey.
The engineering has progressed, but the quality has most certainly regressed. We all have been seeing it over the last year. Since the Prime line. Heck! Since Cybertron quality has really gone down hill.
I actually, in a way, kind of sympathize with Hasbro. It's probably a hard place to be in. The designers want to go all out, but in the end, TRU, Target, and all the retailers hold all the cards. I'd like to be a fly on the wall just to see the reactions from the designers every time the get a revision due to cost issues. I bet they are pissed. which also means ultimately, they are on our side.

ive been enjoying posable TF's (and combiners) since late G2 and BW. why would i except less in 2015? these guys dont look like much more than blown up legends figures.

It's true. It's really unfortunate that this is the area they had to choose to cut back on.

You didn't really poop in my Cheerios, just in your pants while we ate breakfast together, buddy.

On that same token, I've seen the best waves come out right after Christmas, a time big box stores aren't stocking shelves. Can't disagree on quality going downhill since Cybertron.

[ZeroWolf]

See, I'm not so sure quality has been down as people say, especially factoring in economics. Or are people saying that the classics line was worse then cybertron.

I did put a little speech of my own a couple of pages back for the defence of devy but I'll add this; wouldn't we all be complaining if the combined devy mode was simplified and the bots treated as normal voyagers?

I think hasbro should of just marketed devy as a massive single figure that broke apart into the smaller constructicons. Basically the same as now just not mentioning voyager at all

[King Kuuga]

This Devastator is a tradeoff between overall size and overall price. They are intrinsically linked. Within size are the factors of complexity and stability. $150-200 was the absolute most that they could retail this guy for and guarantee that it would sell. More than that and parents, buying it for their kids, will say "Well that's just too much for a toy." (there are always exceptions but not enough to justify a higher price) So the price is set, the next goal is to make a sturdy, gigantic toy within that price range. The more moving parts there are, the more complex the set is, and so the smaller it has to be to keep the price steady. They could opt for locking elbows but again, that's more parts and more complexity. So they made solid elbows to keep costs down and the figure capable of supporting itself. Because it's so big, physics also come into play. Bipedal toys don't always like to stand up on their own, much less so when they've got strange weight distribution like transformers tend to, so the less small moving parts there are to worry about supporting, the better stability is. As I said on a facebook post, Hasbro has made one of the largest combining robot toys ever here for only $150, and that's no small feat. Third parties can charge $400-600 for intricate 13" combiners because they only have to sell a few hundred to a thousand units to adults are willing to shell out for it. Hasbro has to sell at least 5000 Devastators (lowball estimate) to both kids & their parents and adult collectors. If you stop and think about it, Hasbro's decisions DO actually make sense. And for those who really want good, articulated arms and other limbs on this guy, I guarantee a third party will come out with a set to satisfy those needs, because they can justify it where Hasbro can't.

[donny1975]

I concur

Transformers Generations Devastator so big its engineering and price point need to live in harmomy...

[ZeroWolf]

An amazing point That Bot, I agree with you. People really need to start looking at things from Hasbro’s point of view

[Cobotron]

See, I'm not so sure quality has been down as people say, especially factoring in economics. Or are people saying that the classics line was worse then cybertron.

Personally I thought Classics quality was great. I see it most in last years generations toys. Heres an example, I have Classics Ultra Mags from the Target 2-pack, and I have the Classics Prime from the most recent TRU Evolutions 2-pack. There is a visable differrence in the plastic quality. Then when you hold one in each hand, you can feel the difference. The Evo Prime is lighter, and his joints are flimsier.
Gen. Leader Jetfire is a great example. Pick up any leader from any previous line and you can feel the difference. Just in weight alone. So, to cut cost they have to use less material, hence the thin plastic, and the hollow parts. I was appalled when I got him out of the box, but I have learned to love him for what he is. He is still fun to play with and he looks awesome. After having him, and really understanding why he is this way, and the fact that I love these toys so damn much, I am willing to git what I git, and not have a fit.
I also see, especially in last years toys, a drop in quality with ratchet joints. Never before 2014 did I feel, that if I move this joint one more click, it's gonna EXPLODE. Some are way too tight, some are way to loose. They have had to change the way they make and manufacture these joints to make it cheaper. I never had these fears with Cybertron toys, and they used ratchets almost to an excess with those guys. This is also so apparent on the new RID toys.

I think hasbro should of just marketed devy as a massive single figure that broke apart into the smaller constructicons. Basically the same as now just not mentioning voyager at all

I agree. They may have shot themselves in the foot on that one.

I will have Devy. And I will like him despite any and all flaws. When It comes to TFs I am a push over. I'm just trying deal with the current state of the nation here. Inflation is b-hatch and we all have to deal with it.

[william-james88]

Price and size is exactly what drive Hasbro to do what they do. The Senior Director on the "Transformers" brand Jerry Jivoin mentions that in the following quote about Devastator.

We did contemplate having him as just four Deluxes, a Voyager, same model as we have the other characters. But we also felt that Devastator...he's made of six characters so he's a little bit different than the other ones that only have five characters for the Deluxe and Voyager (I know we have the Legends character that makes a weapon or a chest plate) but it required six characters with the Constructicon's original team to make Devastator because you have two torso pieces. So that kind of made it a little...we would have had to put two Voyagers out and four Deluxes to make it work.

We thought about that however we also looked at Devastator and based on how the character is represented in cartoons and how he is represented in comics that he is the one of the biggest if not the biggest Combiner that has ever been created and his scale is bigger than the other Combiners as well. So we said "You know what, what if we did it all Voyager scale?" so they're bigger construction vehicles. They're construction vehicles so they're going to be bigger anyway and if we did them all in Voyager Scale we could make that so they could be in a more correct scale than what we were...we actually looked at six Leader scale construction vehicles and it was absolutely crazy! We actually looked at that as a model because we were trying to figure out what to do. Do we do two Voyagers and Deluxes, do we do six voyagers, do we do six Leaders? The scale and the price point started to get so out of whack and the scale of that was almost too big so we actually felt the six Voyagers made a nice scale difference from Superion and Menasor and Defensor that we liked the scale differences. He is bigger but still in the scale that is relatable to the other Combiners and obviously other Transformers.

[shajaki]

@cobs
very good points. in retrospect, i probably was harder on devastator than jetfire simply because i have a stronger connection to the character. and who am i kidding, when i see him in store i probably wont be able to stop myself from buying him!

@WJ
thanks for that! as far as im concerned, that should be front page material! it could shut up a lot of the nay sayers (like me!)

*edited for horrendous nonsensical structure*

[Sabrblade]

I don't know what cartoon Jerry Jivoin was watching, but Devastator in the G1 cartoon was not bigger than Menasor, Superion, Bruticus, Defensor, Abominus, Computron, etc. All those guys were the same size.

[Rodimus Prime]

...we actually looked at six Leader scale construction vehicles and it was absolutely crazy!...

That...would have been...

[Sabrblade]

...we actually looked at six Leader scale construction vehicles and it was absolutely crazy!...

That...would have been...

Expensive.

And probably even simpler than the one we got.

[william-james88]

I don't know what cartoon Jerry Jivoin was watching, but Devastator in the G1 cartoon was not bigger than Menasor, Superion, Bruticus, Defensor, Abominus, Computron, etc. All those guys were the same size.

I think he meant in the mind of fans and TF lore in general. Like how Optimus Primal usually gets a bigger toy even if he isnt that big on the show, stuff like that.

And Shajaki, we might have something from our side coming up, so it's best we keep this to the boards. I just added it here for discussion. Those who posted their views on this forum will still see it this way.