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So in the minds of these filmmakers, logical sense intentionally gets thrown out the window, these movies are treated less like movies and more like theme park attractions, and narrative attentiveness is specifically shoved way down the list of priorities.How do you write for Michael Bay’s style?
Writing for Michael is very — he’s a very sensory director, and sometimes an “overload” director. He’s someone who is always looking to top himself, certainly from an action perspective and a stylistic perspective. So very early on we’re throwing ideas back and forth. We talk about sequences and visuals and moments. Whereas in some other films, or “ordinary” films, you might be very slavish to story and narrative first, and logical sense above all. When you’re talking about aliens, robotic machines which disguise themselves as vehicles and animals, you start to make your peace with the idea that logical sense doesn’t have to be the be-all, end-all. It needs to be amazing fun for the audience. They need to be swept up, and be promised that they’re going to see things that make it worth spending money on a ticket.
This film, and some other Transformers films, does away with, for example, some basic connective tissue between story sequences.
At moments it is quasi-experimental, yes. You have to understand, with a big summer movie like this, especially this franchise, [Michael Bay] doesn’t quite look at it like competing with movies. He looks at it like “should I go see Transformers, or spend a day at Six Flags?” There’s a big spectacle quality to it that he is promising, and that is one of the things that makes this franchise different than your X-Men, Spider-Man, or Planet of the Apes films. It’s something this series does that is its own style. That is all part of the package. Some days, it’s like writing a Cirque du Soleil show.
Would some of those quasi-experimental aspects be received differently if there was a name on the tin other than Michael Bay?
Like… Nicolas Winding Refn? Yeah, maybe! It probably wouldn’t have the box office. [Bay] is a populist entertainer, and he’s delivering spectacle the way that P.T. Barnum promised. Every time out, he delivers it. He pushes ILM and effects companies to do things they’ve never done before. He always wants to push thrills, spectacle, humor, and fun. Somewhere way down the list is “all the ‘i’s must be dotted” for old-fashioned narrative practices.
”I guess the important thing to remember whenever we want to pass judgment or draw conclusions is, that we’re all at different stages in our growth and development… The truth is, every one of us is at various points in the process of change.”
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
Just the last one, or all four?Tyrannacon wrote:Very good post Sabrblade.
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
Sabrblade wrote:Just the last one, or all four?Tyrannacon wrote:Very good post Sabrblade.
Sabrblade wrote:WHAAAAAAAAT?!!!!!!!
That came out of nowhere! There was not ONE scene in this entire movie that even suggested that he could do that! Nowhere in this movie was he even remotely hinted at having this ability, and his only just now doing it came completely out of left field.
Re-watching that scene, I see it now, but his use of them is barely visible (since the exhaust is the same color as the sky) and not called to our attention since the carnage itself and the big robo T-Rex causing it is what's most prominently displayed onscreen at the time.SlyTF1 wrote:Sabrblade wrote:WHAAAAAAAAT?!!!!!!!
That came out of nowhere! There was not ONE scene in this entire movie that even suggested that he could do that! Nowhere in this movie was he even remotely hinted at having this ability, and his only just now doing it came completely out of left field.
Nope. There were two times before that, during the "Dinobot charge," scene, where he jumped off of Grimlock and used them.
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
Sabrblade wrote:Re-watching that scene, I see it now, but his use of them is barely visible (since the exhaust is the same color as the sky) and not called to our attention since the carnage itself and the big robo T-Rex causing it is what's most prominently displayed onscreen at the time.SlyTF1 wrote:Sabrblade wrote:WHAAAAAAAAT?!!!!!!!
That came out of nowhere! There was not ONE scene in this entire movie that even suggested that he could do that! Nowhere in this movie was he even remotely hinted at having this ability, and his only just now doing it came completely out of left field.
Nope. There were two times before that, during the "Dinobot charge," scene, where he jumped off of Grimlock and used them.
And even if he does use them at this point, the ability still comes out of nowhere with no explanation in the final cut of the film, what with the full-body Silver Knight upgrade having been aborted.
Reread my review when I discuss the sword-pulling scene. Each time.SlyTF1 wrote:I thought he assumed the knight mode when he grabbed the Sword of Judgement. That's why his arms changed. It wasn't silver, but he certainly looked more like a knight.
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
Sabrblade wrote:The movie's been out for over three months and is now available in stores. Spoilers have long since been fair game.Smokescreen wrote:Psst.. Sabr.. good review, but do you think you can put this all in a spoiler alert bracket? That is for those who haven't seen the movie yet?Igor's head was his body. Megatron's head wasn't.chivesbot20 wrote:And with Megatrons head surviving, think about Igor as a previous example.
First of all, I get it. I get that Bay likes putting emphasis on the spectacle aspects of his movies. I get that he prioritizes that above all else. But really, that’s the issue. To put it another way, he focus primarily on making the most delicious icing ever tasted in existence, rather than putting enough focus on the cake itself. But the cake is main part of the dessert, with the icing being the extra flavor. Meaning that Bay gives more attention to the extra flavor than he does the main body of his work, and tries to hide a subpar cake behind layers of additional flavoring. To use a different metaphor, he tries to cure the symptoms rather than cure the illness.
Burn wrote:P.S.
**** you CF.
ctrlFrequency wrote:I finally broke down and saw the movie last night (after being warned by hubby's co workers not to see it in the theater, which I regret, explosions are far more thrilling with theater surround sound, which I've been wanting to get installed since we bought our house in June).
SKYWARPED_128 wrote:chivesbot20 wrote:Great review. But Skywarped 128 If the only villain was Lockdown, The movie would drag even more IMO. BUt the one part I disagree with is the parts on Optimus…….every part. But other wise the review is great and can't wait til part 3
Just curious, but how would having just Lockdown drag the movie even longer? The plot would be more simplified, and there would be more focus on just the concept of the Creators and the Knights. I know some would argue that TF5 will explain these further, but there needs to be at least some basic explanation of these concepts within AOE itself. The Creators were sufficiently explained with enough questions to keep the viewer interested (good job, Kruger), but the knights needed a lot more explaining so as not to leave the viewer confused.
So Optimus used to be a knight, but what exactly ARE knights in the context of AOE? Are they enforcers of the Creators' colonies? And having Dino modes, does that make the Dinobots former enforcers of Earth? Who exactly are they enforcing on a planet populated solely by dinosaurs? And why did they rebel? These things need to be explained in THIS movie, not the next. Because it leaves the viewer confused and unsatisfied if he has to wait for the next movie to find out. This isn't a TV series where the answer is just 24 hours away.
To Kruger's credit, this is proof that the idea is an interesting one if it makes the viewer (me at least) long for more answers.
Back to the point, just by further elaborating on the role of the knights and giving the Dinobots a more prominent role, the movie would be more focused (there's that word again) and feel more satisfying.
The whole KSI idea with Megatron's rebirth into Galvatron is enough to hold a second movie on its own. It would also give Kruger time to figure out how to make sense of the "no soul but alive" thing.
I think Kruger comes up with some really cool ideas (even if the base concepts were borrowed from other TF media), but he never seems able to just stay with it throughout the movie. He seems to just introduce the concept enough to grab the viewer's attention, and then flounders to the other cool ideas, leaving inconsistencies in the plot.Sabrblade wrote:Igor's head was his body. Megatron's head wasn't.
Exactly! Which leads me to another peeve regarding movieverse ideas.
Yeah, the Igor thing seems pretty fun as concept art, but they don't ever bother to explain why Long Haul's head, if it IS indeed Long Haul's head, managed to sprout limbs, detach from its body and take on the personality of a demented servant.
SlyTF1 wrote:ctrlFrequency wrote:I finally broke down and saw the movie last night (after being warned by hubby's co workers not to see it in the theater, which I regret, explosions are far more thrilling with theater surround sound, which I've been wanting to get installed since we bought our house in June).
One of the best parts about watching it in IMAX was in the opening scene, when all the seeds detonated, the entire theater shook and it felt like the sound was literally punching me in the chest. It was the most badass thing ever. Every gun shot felt real. I don't know why the hell people insist on not seeing these types of movies in a theater. Those are the best places to see them. Even if you're not enthralled by the story or characters, at least it still has that sense of it being an attraction; an event. That's how these movies are supposed to be viewed, anyway.
Burn wrote:P.S.
**** you CF.
chivesbot20 wrote:He could be a headmaster of some sort.
When typing it in MS Word, it came out to being 42 pages.SKYWARPED_128 wrote:You know you've written a good review when people are actually willing to read what could be 6 pages of tightly-packed words when printed on paper.
Specifically these parts:Sabrblade wrote:Reread my review when I discuss the sword-pulling scene. Each time.SlyTF1 wrote:I thought he assumed the knight mode when he grabbed the Sword of Judgement. That's why his arms changed. It wasn't silver, but he certainly looked more like a knight.
He walks back into the crashed ship and, with the words “Recognize one of your Knights," he pulls a sword out of a pulpit holding many other swords, causing him to undergo a super quick blink-and-you’ll-miss-it cosmetic change to his arms (JUST his arms).
And YES, I KNOW that it originally stemmed from an aborted plan for Optimus to attain his “Silver Knight” upgrade that the toys had, as there exists concept art for it:
BUT, this upgrade was never realized in the final cut of the movie. The only upgrades Optimus undergoes are first his Trans-scanning from one truck to another in the desert, and then later his minor cosmetic change when he pulled his sword out of its pedestal, which affected ONLY his arms. Not his legs, not his whole body, JUST his arms. We can speculate and guess that the arm upgrade might have also upgraded the inner working of his legs all we want, but at the end of the day, it’s only speculation, not truth. Therefore, this flight capability that was leftover from a discarded concept has NO explanation and comes completely out of nowhere in the final version of the movie.
Precisely. You can't make a proper cake without the necessary ingredients needed to make it, but you CAN make a proper cake without icing.Cthulhunicron wrote:First of all, I get it. I get that Bay likes putting emphasis on the spectacle aspects of his movies. I get that he prioritizes that above all else. But really, that’s the issue. To put it another way, he focus primarily on making the most delicious icing ever tasted in existence, rather than putting enough focus on the cake itself. But the cake is main part of the dessert, with the icing being the extra flavor. Meaning that Bay gives more attention to the extra flavor than he does the main body of his work, and tries to hide a subpar cake behind layers of additional flavoring. To use a different metaphor, he tries to cure the symptoms rather than cure the illness.
Thank you! Sabrblade, you've perfectly summed up precisely why I can't stand these movies. I'm a narrative guy...I like a good story. If I can't have a good story, I at least like the story to make basic sense. It's clear that logic takes a backseat during the writing process and Bay and Kruger focus more on what spectacles they want to create. Nothing wrong with having spectacle in your movie; like you said, it's the icing on the cake. But you can't just have icing, you need the cake...a good story and likeable, relatable characters to tie everything together.
Feel free to counter anything I've written. I welcome friendly discussion.Rodimus Prime wrote:I agree with a lot of it, and I also disagree with some things. However, as you said, it's an opinion. We all have 1.
I get what you're saying, and while I do agree that I also wouldn't want the Autobots to be angelically perfect in their goodness (since that would be boring if it wasn't done for parody or satirical purposes), I still feel that what we get was too mean-spirited for their being the heroes of this movie. It's not just the fact that they act so callously, but that they do so without any remorse. Not one of them ever feels any regret for the less-than-noble actions they undertake in this movie. Hound and Crosshairs were especially the worst regarding this, since both of them were obsessed with homicide. They loved and relished committing acts of murder, and constantly spoke about how they wanted something to kill every chance they got. The two of them were practically addicted to murder, and that's far from being a healthy attribute of any characters, let alone members of the good guy hero team looked up to and admired by countless amounts of children since 1984.ctrlFrequency wrote:That being said, I understand there's some complaints about Hound, Crosshairs, Drift, and Bee and their 'antics' and dialog...
With Hound, honestly, it felt as if the writers had been using him to poke fun at the old 'war hero' movies, from his cgi design to his personality, and John Goodman was perfect for the gritty 'almost John Wayne' style of voice. I did feel the cheesy lines were there as a poke at those old war movies and the way our American attitude is viewed by the rest of world, over the top violent dialog. Since the onslaught of World War II movies back in the late 40's, we've portrayed ourselves like that. Is it a bit much? Yeah, but if that was the intention, then it's more of chuckle on 'American Attitude' than just gratuitously violent dialog.
Though I did feel his dialog mirrored Ironhide's dialog from the first movie a bit too much at times.
Crosshairs, Drift, and Bee being a little harsh, with each other especially... it felt to me as if the writers were trying to get us to feel like they were a bunch of young guys, left in a very stressful (war) situation for many years and the fighting was more of the good natured blowing off steam. These guys have been being pushed around and hunted by creatures they could simply step on and kill; all the while not being able to leave the planet (and their problems) or retaliating at all or defending themselves. I would assume, that even a Cybertronian, caught in a perpetual state of tension and conflict would need a release, on their buddies... in a good natured way.
Last comment on that nature...
I'm one of those people who doesn't believe a person (or bot in this case) is all good or all bad. I hate that. Even the most downright evil person has something good about them.... it's just completely negated by all the nasty evilness they posses. Also, even the most honorable good person has an aspect that's not that great, but is negated by their good side.
In the end, the average person, and extending to the average bot, might be good, but it doesn't mean they have to be perfect. I want my characters to never be ALL good, have some irritating, annoying, less than savory, aspect to their personality.
It's why I won't really complain about Optimus' less than noble lines. I think they went to far... but then.. it's an action movie. Optimus should have some anger and lash out a bit (but they could have ended the bloodthirsty attitude in the beginning).
Remind me never to hand you any sharp objects, projectile launchers, or anything that could be used as a weapon.SlyTF1 wrote:One of the best parts about watching it in IMAX was in the opening scene, when all the seeds detonated, the entire theater shook and it felt like the sound was literally punching me in the chest. It was the most badass thing ever. Every gun shot felt real. I don't know why the hell people insist on not seeing these types of movies in a theater. Those are the best places to see them. Even if you're not enthralled by the story or characters, at least it still has that sense of it being an attraction; an event. That's how these movies are supposed to be viewed, anyway.
If you mean Igor, that still supports my statement of Igor's head being his body while Megatron's head was not.chivesbot20 wrote:He could be a headmaster of some sort.
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
Sabrblade wrote:If you mean Igor, that still supports my statement of Igor's head being his body while Megatron's head was not.chivesbot20 wrote:He could be a headmaster of some sort.
And I'm looking for facts, not speculation. If this movie doesn't have the answers, then that's a shortcoming of the movie and those who made it.
Umm... That's relevant, how?SlyTF1 wrote:Sabrblade wrote:If you mean Igor, that still supports my statement of Igor's head being his body while Megatron's head was not.chivesbot20 wrote:He could be a headmaster of some sort.
And I'm looking for facts, not speculation. If this movie doesn't have the answers, then that's a shortcoming of the movie and those who made it.
The drones that were crawling around in Megatron's head in DOTM. AOE showed the Insecticons, but as far as I'm concerned, they're the same entity.
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
Sabrblade wrote:When typing it in MS Word, it came out to being 42 pages.![]()
Sabrblade wrote:Feel free to counter anything I've written. I welcome friendly discussion.
Sabrblade wrote:Umm... That's relevant, how?SlyTF1 wrote:Sabrblade wrote:If you mean Igor, that still supports my statement of Igor's head being his body while Megatron's head was not.chivesbot20 wrote:He could be a headmaster of some sort.
And I'm looking for facts, not speculation. If this movie doesn't have the answers, then that's a shortcoming of the movie and those who made it.
The drones that were crawling around in Megatron's head in DOTM. AOE showed the Insecticons, but as far as I'm concerned, they're the same entity.
That still doesn't explain how Megatron's head could still be alive despite its being disconnected to the source of life that kept it alive back when it was still attached to his body. And, again, because the movie gives no answer, that's the movie's fault.
"They" who? Certainly not KSI, since they lacked both the means to and the intention of doing so, since what they were doing was science, not alchemy.SlyTF1 wrote:They preserved his mind.
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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