The Energon Pub

Jeep! wrote:

GetterDragun wrote:What about buying an Exclusive? These wre supposed to be Exclusive and they are not. So what about the person who spent the money just to go to BotCon just to get Exclusives and now they could have gotten it outside the convention for a lot less (less because you could not buy a Thundercracker without getting all the figures)? That is not elitist. I personally think people calling someone who bought a BotCon set is simply jealous.

Blanket post to all holdin your sentiment:

Dear sir/madam. Your North American exclusives are not available to the rest of the world at the price you paid for them. Takara, a seperate company, are allowed to cater to their market, which is on the other side of the world to yours. BotCon attendees are not more important than the entire Asian fandom. Thank you for your time.

You missed the point completely. No where did I say Takara doesn't have the right. My point is how can these be claimed to be "Botcon Exclusives", if there is no guarantee of that? Why not call them "Potentially never to be released figures available at a convention"? What would people say if the Universe Seacons were released a year later in Japan?

GetterDragun wrote:

Jeep! wrote:

GetterDragun wrote:What about buying an Exclusive? These wre supposed to be Exclusive and they are not. So what about the person who spent the money just to go to BotCon just to get Exclusives and now they could have gotten it outside the convention for a lot less (less because you could not buy a Thundercracker without getting all the figures)? That is not elitist. I personally think people calling someone who bought a BotCon set is simply jealous.

Blanket post to all holdin your sentiment:

Dear sir/madam. Your North American exclusives are not available to the rest of the world at the price you paid for them. Takara, a seperate company, are allowed to cater to their market, which is on the other side of the world to yours. BotCon attendees are not more important than the entire Asian fandom. Thank you for your time.

You missed the point completely. No where did I say Takara doesn't have the right. My point is how can these be claimed to be "Botcon Exclusives", if there is no guarantee of that? Why not call them "Potentially never to be released figures available at a convention"? What would people say if the Universe Seacons were released a year later in Japan?

If they were release by another company, under a line which didn't exist when the 'exclusive' (which is still quantifiably different to the new version) then it'd make sense to me. Hasbro had no intention to make Classics Thundercracker, it then said that the BotCon version was exclusive. Then, a separate company released something similar under a different range, which only makes the exlusive less exclusive if you're the over-reactive type. For example, if Deluxe Movie Brawl was exlusive to some convention, and the Allspark Power version was released by Takara under a different banner, it's a different toy. And you mightn't think so, but the only people to whom it makes a difference are collectors and the dealers who sell to them, and to them, it's a different toy. There's no issue here, it's not even a molehill to begin with - so how a mountain can be made from it is beyond me.

Everyone knows that eventually the Seacons (all 6) will be reissued into the Encore line. Possibly as both the G1 Seacons and the BW2 Seacons (with extra member and weapons and accessories). I for one am content in this knowledge. Will I buy the Collecter's Club Seacons? Maybe. Not too fond of the colors. But if I do and they make Encore Seacons I'll definatly buy those.

Jeep! wrote:

GetterDragun wrote:
You missed the point completely. No where did I say Takara doesn't have the right. My point is how can these be claimed to be "Botcon Exclusives", if there is no guarantee of that? Why not call them "Potentially never to be released figures available at a convention"? What would people say if the Universe Seacons were released a year later in Japan?

If they were release by another company, under a line which didn't exist when the 'exclusive' (which is still quantifiably different to the new version) then it'd make sense to me. Hasbro had no intention to make Classics Thundercracker, it then said that the BotCon version was exclusive. Then, a separate company released something similar under a different range, which only makes the exlusive less exclusive if you're the over-reactive type. For example, if Deluxe Movie Brawl was exlusive to some convention, and the Allspark Power version was released by Takara under a different banner, it's a different toy. And you mightn't think so, but the only people to whom it makes a difference are collectors and the dealers who sell to them, and to them, it's a different toy. There's no issue here, it's not even a molehill to begin with - so how a mountain can be made from it is beyond me.

I don't see how Henkei TC is substantially different. It's G1 Thundercracker, I could see if they painted it in Cybertron TC colors, that would be sginificantly different, not this. And this whole seperate company doesn't fly when the first run for BotCon was stamped Takara as well. If it werre a completely different company, it would be a knockoff. But again, I'm addressing the point that these should be called exclusives if they can't be guaranteed it. On a side note, I guess that's why with GI Joe, they can be guaranteed, cause it's all on Hasbro. But this would mean that the term "Exclusive", should not be used on TFs if there is no guarantee of such because of Takara.

As I said, at the time, though, there was no Henkai series, as far as they were concerned there was no planned release for it. So they were justified in calling it an exclusive, since to them, it would be.

GetterDragun wrote:I never understood that a minor paint variance makes it a new figure. There are paint variations on US figures for the same figure. I always thought it was just production variances, but I guess some people do consider it something worth getting.

But seriously, considering variances on paint a major difference would mean that every single Galaxy Force figure is different from every US figure (and I'm not talking about that were intentionally painted compeltely different). No one ever really said this in the past, so why now?

I've always looked at them as separate. Same character, but clearly the toys aren't the same. It's never made much of a difference to me, as I go with Hasbro (not counting reissues) as it's cheaper and the differences in the paint don't usually bother me. Plus, Takara is overly fond of chrome, and I'm not. I just don't see how the Botcon TC is no longer exclusive. I can understand what you're saying, I just don't agree.

It is refreshing to disagree with someone about Botcon exclusives for so long and not have someone resort to name-calling by this point.

Jeep! wrote:As I said, at the time, though, there was no Henkai series, as far as they were concerned there was no planned release for it. So they were justified in calling it an exclusive, since to them, it would be.

So basically since they assumed there would be no more classics it would be ok to automatically call it an exclusive? Basing something on an assumption is pretty silly. I think that if they are going to call something an exclusive, they should at least get clearance from both Hasbro and Takara. I know of course they got it from Hasbro, but if Takara couldn't guarantee it, thsy should have made like it was a potential exclusive, or early release or something.

So basically since they assumed there would be no more classics it would be ok to automatically call it an exclusive?

Yes, pretty much. Big businesses aren't going to stop and think too much for a convention release, they probably just checked their schedule, saw nothing that matched it, and gave it the thumbs-up for being an "exclusive".

MagnusPrimal wrote:

GetterDragun wrote:I never understood that a minor paint variance makes it a new figure. There are paint variations on US figures for the same figure. I always thought it was just production variances, but I guess some people do consider it something worth getting.

But seriously, considering variances on paint a major difference would mean that every single Galaxy Force figure is different from every US figure (and I'm not talking about that were intentionally painted compeltely different). No one ever really said this in the past, so why now?

I've always looked at them as separate. Same character, but clearly the toys aren't the same. It's never made much of a difference to me, as I go with Hasbro (not counting reissues) as it's cheaper and the differences in the paint don't usually bother me. Plus, Takara is overly fond of chrome, and I'm not. I just don't see how the Botcon TC is no longer exclusive. I can understand what you're saying, I just don't agree.

It is refreshing to disagree with someone about Botcon exclusives for so long and not have someone resort to name-calling by this point.

See to me (and I'm sure many other people based on all these threads), they are close enough. And I am sure that there are people who get every figure, even if it is the sam Hasbro release with a minor paint variance between a wave of figures, and well, none of this should bother those people. To me, I got the BotCon seekers thinking I'd never see a Thundercracker-esque official repaint of the Classics Starscream mold and being that it was a Botcon exlcusive meant that this would be my only chance to get this figure since it was an exclusive. To me that word exlcusive means one production run. Now that there is another figure meeting my specifications for a classics Thundercracker, I would say having called it an exlcusive is pretty silly.

Now I know I am repeating myself is many threads, but my point is that if you can't guarantee exclusivity, you shouldn't and I know people say that "well, there is minor paint variations", but for most people, this figure was only going to be available at BotCon. I wonder if people would feel this way if the Universe eacons were released in Japan with no variations.

Just to add fuel to the flames...

A Botcon Thundercracker just sold for a little more than a $100.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=130225633424&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=003

Too bad I just blew all my money on Botcon 2008 stuff, or else I would have gone in

Jeep! wrote:

So basically since they assumed there would be no more classics it would be ok to automatically call it an exclusive?

Yes, pretty much. Big businesses aren't going to stop and think too much for a convention release, they probably just checked their schedule, saw nothing that matched it, and gave it the thumbs-up for being an "exclusive".

That might be true, but if that was the case, how come we don't see this issue with other Hasbro properties (as far as I know) such as Star Wars or GI Joe?

GetterDragun wrote:

Jeep! wrote:

So basically since they assumed there would be no more classics it would be ok to automatically call it an exclusive?

Yes, pretty much. Big businesses aren't going to stop and think too much for a convention release, they probably just checked their schedule, saw nothing that matched it, and gave it the thumbs-up for being an "exclusive".

That might be true, but if that was the case, how come we don't see this issue with other Hasbro properties (as far as I know) such as Star Wars or GI Joe?

I have no idea about the toy fandom for those, so I can't really say.

As far as I know, Hasbro don't share those properties with anyone else.

Sledge wrote:As far as I know, Hasbro don't share those properties with anyone else.

If that is the case (which sounds right), then it makes sense that in the past when Hasbro ok'ed an exclusive, that it would be an exclusive. I guess this means there is no way to gurantee a TF exclusive. So maybe people in the future that labeling a TF an exclusive might not be such a great idea then.

GetterDragun wrote:See to me (and I'm sure many other people based on all these threads), they are close enough. And I am sure that there are people who get every figure, even if it is the sam Hasbro release with a minor paint variance between a wave of figures, and well, none of this should bother those people. To me, I got the BotCon seekers thinking I'd never see a Thundercracker-esque official repaint of the Classics Starscream mold and being that it was a Botcon exlcusive meant that this would be my only chance to get this figure since it was an exclusive. To me that word exlcusive means one production run. Now that there is another figure meeting my specifications for a classics Thundercracker, I would say having called it an exlcusive is pretty silly.

Did you pay the after market cost for it? If not, I don't quite understand your beef. You still paid less per figure of what they're going for. If it upsets you that much then sell your set, or even just the BC TC and buy the friggin' Henkei...it's not like you're going to lose money on the deal if you bought it at cost.

And if you did pay the mark up, then yeah...that sucks. But I guess you should then just think about all the deals you've gotten along the way. I'm sure you didn't feel too bad for the person you just lifted a figure off for less than its "value." It all works out eventually...

NotEnoughKibble wrote:

GetterDragun wrote:See to me (and I'm sure many other people based on all these threads), they are close enough. And I am sure that there are people who get every figure, even if it is the sam Hasbro release with a minor paint variance between a wave of figures, and well, none of this should bother those people. To me, I got the BotCon seekers thinking I'd never see a Thundercracker-esque official repaint of the Classics Starscream mold and being that it was a Botcon exlcusive meant that this would be my only chance to get this figure since it was an exclusive. To me that word exlcusive means one production run. Now that there is another figure meeting my specifications for a classics Thundercracker, I would say having called it an exlcusive is pretty silly.

Did you pay the after market cost for it? If not, I don't quite understand your beef. You still paid less per figure of what they're going for. If it upsets you that much then sell your set, or even just the BC TC and buy the friggin' Henkei...it's not like you're going to lose money on the deal if you bought it at cost.

And if you did pay the mark up, then yeah...that sucks. But I guess you should then just think about all the deals you've gotten along the way. I'm sure you didn't feel too bad for the person you just lifted a figure off for less than its "value." It all works out eventually...

No, again my point has nothing to do with the cost or value of what it is worth. Where did I say that? My point is about calling items exclusives that might not end up being exclusives. My point still holds valid even if BotCon Thundercracker was on e-bay for $10 prior to anyone knowing it would be released in the Henkei line. Case in point, I got one of those BotCon Rook figures on e-bay for a $1 sealed, but it still remains an Exclusive.

GetterDragun wrote:No, again my point has nothing to do with the cost or value of what it is worth. Where did I say that? My point is about calling items exclusives that might not end up being exclusives. My point still holds valid even if BotCon Thundercracker was on e-bay for $10 prior to anyone knowing it would be released in the Henkei line. Case in point, I got one of those BotCon Rook figures on e-bay for a $1 sealed, but it still remains an Exclusive.

So if you don't care about its worth, then what does exclusivity matter? The only thing exclusivity does is make it more valuable. Either that or just make someone feel "cool" they have somethng few others do...but if you wanna talk silly, I personally think that's silly. Not trying to imply that's the case with you...I have no idea. I admit, I don't get either "side's" argument on this one. My standpoint to the "other side" prior to the Henkei announcement would have been to buy some friggin' paint already...

NotEnoughKibble wrote:

GetterDragun wrote:No, again my point has nothing to do with the cost or value of what it is worth. Where did I say that? My point is about calling items exclusives that might not end up being exclusives. My point still holds valid even if BotCon Thundercracker was on e-bay for $10 prior to anyone knowing it would be released in the Henkei line. Case in point, I got one of those BotCon Rook figures on e-bay for a $1 sealed, but it still remains an Exclusive.

So if you don't care about its worth, then what does exclusivity matter? The only thing exclusivity does is make it more valuable. Either that or just make someone feel "cool" they have somethng few others do...but if you wanna talk silly, I personally think that's silly. Not trying to imply that's the case with you...I have no idea. I admit, I don't get either "side's" argument on this one. My standpoint to the "other side" prior to the Henkei announcement would have been to buy some friggin' paint already...

I think he's saying it goes to trust. Through no fault of their own, FunPub betrayed a lot of Botcon attendees by stating this was an exclusive.

Group 1: Many people went to the Con or paid their $300 for the set believing that was the only way they could get this set of figures. So I'm sure that they feel betrayed.
Group 2: Some people take offense to violations of truth in advertising, which again, through no fault of their own, FunPub has, technically, lied to consumers. You should get what you pay for. People paid for an exclusive set of toys. They did not get an exclusive toy, they got a rare toy (big difference).

Not only that, but will TakTomy release the other figures from the set? They have the molds. They did it before. What's to stop them from making a Shattered Glass Prime? Or Hot Rod? Or their own verion of Nightbeat? Maybe the Seacons? Or that Astrotrain remold? Those Days of Future toys were pretty sweet. Nothing is off-limits now. It's all open.

So now FunPub has a real **** storm on their hands. What can they release, what characters are 'sacrosanct' and how long until Takara decides they want to do it overseas? Can they reaffirm the trust that was given them and then taken away?

GetterDragun wrote:

Jeep! wrote:

So basically since they assumed there would be no more classics it would be ok to automatically call it an exclusive?

Yes, pretty much. Big businesses aren't going to stop and think too much for a convention release, they probably just checked their schedule, saw nothing that matched it, and gave it the thumbs-up for being an "exclusive".

That might be true, but if that was the case, how come we don't see this issue with other Hasbro properties (as far as I know) such as Star Wars or GI Joe?

Not true. In 2005, Hasbro released a StarWarsStore.com Exclusive Covert Ops Clone Trooper. Guess what, just checked the back of a card for a 2008 figure and guess who's in the pipeline??? Yep, the Covert Ops Clone Trooper. Same figure, just 3 years later. I think that the same thing is happening with the Target exclusive Shadow Clone Trooper. Pretty sure it's being re-released too.

As collectors, we have to face the facts: there's probably no such thing as an "Exclusive". It appears to be just a timing thing.

Here: http://www.rebelscum.com/ROTS05covertops.asp

And here: http://www.rebelscum.com/photo.asp?imag ... scard1.jpg

Follow up: The Starwarsshop.com exclusive was also about 20 bucks a piece plus shipping. The new one should be about 6.50 in stores. IMO, exactly the same thing here.

Well, to add to that.

The secondary ships that Anakin and Obi Wan used in Episode three were released as TRU exclusives at movie time for about $15 more than standard MSRP. At least one of those is now being offered as a standard release at MSRP.

However, in that case and in the case of the Shadow trooper we're talking store exclusives. In the US, store exclusives are not true exclusives.

Without taking a side on anything for this particular post. What Getter Dragon is trying to convey is a simple point of frustration. If you can't understand his point, there is no discussion because there is no basis for the back and forth.

Again, I'm being objective here and just explaining his side...

Getter is a collector. I don't mean in the way that we're all collecting toys. He is buying, in part, due to the collectable and increasing worth aspect of some toys. When Fun Publications says that their set is exclusive and will not be offered anywhere else; when people buy the sets based on that assumption, then they are going to be somewhat angry by even a small reversal of policy.

Getter is saying, "Why place faith in BotCon? Why place faith in this aspect of collecting anymore when it violates it's own rules?"

Most others are saying, "Forget BotCon, it's elitist and we want all things to be equal. We don't care about your side of the equation because your side is based in a principal which we find disagreeable."

I'm only chiming in here because Getter is arguing a difficult issue alone and I'm not sure his point is coming across the way it should.

Perhaps his question should be to everyone else: "While you are not happy about this particular exclusive situation, is this justification for the abolishment of all exclusive toys and thereby the opportunities to get those toys in the future?"

In other words, while everyone seems to like the kind of cars that Porche makes, should we not permit them to be sold on the basis that most people will never be able to have one?

NotEnoughKibble wrote:

GetterDragun wrote:No, again my point has nothing to do with the cost or value of what it is worth. Where did I say that? My point is about calling items exclusives that might not end up being exclusives. My point still holds valid even if BotCon Thundercracker was on e-bay for $10 prior to anyone knowing it would be released in the Henkei line. Case in point, I got one of those BotCon Rook figures on e-bay for a $1 sealed, but it still remains an Exclusive.

So if you don't care about its worth, then what does exclusivity matter? The only thing exclusivity does is make it more valuable. Either that or just make someone feel "cool" they have somethng few others do...but if you wanna talk silly, I personally think that's silly. Not trying to imply that's the case with you...I have no idea. I admit, I don't get either "side's" argument on this one. My standpoint to the "other side" prior to the Henkei announcement would have been to buy some friggin' paint already...

I would say having somethin unique makes it fun to own and makes it worth going through the trouble to get it. In terms of collecting, exclusivity is something that adds fun to being a collector, and I would say this applies to almost all collecting hobbies. I think Transformer collecting is an "immature" hobby because to many people it is a toy and people who have the expensive and rare ones are just "showing off their toys". But if these were Baseball cards, or stamps, or cars, or most anything else, the concept of exclusivity would seem to be understood better.

Emperor Galvatron wrote:

NotEnoughKibble wrote:

GetterDragun wrote:No, again my point has nothing to do with the cost or value of what it is worth. Where did I say that? My point is about calling items exclusives that might not end up being exclusives. My point still holds valid even if BotCon Thundercracker was on e-bay for $10 prior to anyone knowing it would be released in the Henkei line. Case in point, I got one of those BotCon Rook figures on e-bay for a $1 sealed, but it still remains an Exclusive.

So if you don't care about its worth, then what does exclusivity matter? The only thing exclusivity does is make it more valuable. Either that or just make someone feel "cool" they have somethng few others do...but if you wanna talk silly, I personally think that's silly. Not trying to imply that's the case with you...I have no idea. I admit, I don't get either "side's" argument on this one. My standpoint to the "other side" prior to the Henkei announcement would have been to buy some friggin' paint already...

I think he's saying it goes to trust. Through no fault of their own, FunPub betrayed a lot of Botcon attendees by stating this was an exclusive.

Group 1: Many people went to the Con or paid their $300 for the set believing that was the only way they could get this set of figures. So I'm sure that they feel betrayed.
Group 2: Some people take offense to violations of truth in advertising, which again, through no fault of their own, FunPub has, technically, lied to consumers. You should get what you pay for. People paid for an exclusive set of toys. They did not get an exclusive toy, they got a rare toy (big difference).

Not only that, but will TakTomy release the other figures from the set? They have the molds. They did it before. What's to stop them from making a Shattered Glass Prime? Or Hot Rod? Or their own verion of Nightbeat? Maybe the Seacons? Or that Astrotrain remold? Those Days of Future toys were pretty sweet. Nothing is off-limits now. It's all open.

So now FunPub has a real **** storm on their hands. What can they release, what characters are 'sacrosanct' and how long until Takara decides they want to do it overseas? Can they reaffirm the trust that was given them and then taken away?

Bingo. It has nothing to do about the value, it has to do with "trust". Be honest with me about what I'm getting getting. Alot of people keep getting stuck on the monetary issue.

Counterpunch wrote:Well, to add to that.

The secondary ships that Anakin and Obi Wan used in Episode three were released as TRU exclusives at movie time for about $15 more than standard MSRP. At least one of those is now being offered as a standard release at MSRP.

However, in that case and in the case of the Shadow trooper we're talking store exclusives. In the US, store exclusives are not true exclusives.

Without taking a side on anything for this particular post. What Getter Dragon is trying to convey is a simple point of frustration. If you can't understand his point, there is no discussion because there is no basis for the back and forth.

Again, I'm being objective here and just explaining his side...

Getter is a collector. I don't mean in the way that we're all collecting toys. He is buying, in part, due to the collectable and increasing worth aspect of some toys. When Fun Publications says that their set is exclusive and will not be offered anywhere else; when people buy the sets based on that assumption, then they are going to be somewhat angry by even a small reversal of policy.

Getter is saying, "Why place faith in BotCon? Why place faith in this aspect of collecting anymore when it violates it's own rules?"

Most others are saying, "Forget BotCon, it's elitist and we want all things to be equal. We don't care about your side of the equation because your side is based in a principal which we find disagreeable."

I'm only chiming in here because Getter is arguing a difficult issue alone and I'm not sure his point is coming across the way it should.

Perhaps his question should be to everyone else: "While you are not happy about this particular exclusive situation, is this justification for the abolishment of all exclusive toys and thereby the opportunities to get those toys in the future?"

In other words, while everyone seems to like the kind of cars that Porche makes, should we not permit them to be sold on the basis that most people will never be able to have one?

I totally get the point and I do sympathize with those who attended BotCon for this set only to see certain figures show up later on, regardless of who released it. It doesn't instill a lot of confidence in the BotCon organizers. The big time collectors have every right to vent. I'm sure if I was in their shoes, I'd feel like I was being screwed.

In addition to your point CP, the global market versus domestic just blurs those lines even more, especially with the two companies involved.

DevastaTTor wrote:I totally get the point and I do sympathize with those who attended BotCon for this set only to see certain figures show up later on, regardless of who released it. It doesn't instill a lot of confidence in the BotCon organizers. The big time collectors have every right to vent. I'm sure if I was in their shoes, I'd feel like I was being screwed.

In addition to your point CP, the global market versus domestic just blurs those lines even more, especially with the two companies involved.

You know, as someone who went to the 07' convention and got a set (or two), I'm not even all that upset at the Henkei release. Actually, I'm not upset at all.

The hardest part for me in all of this is the small group of people who have spewed vicious hate and resentment both towards BotCon/Hasbro and towards fellow collectors. All of the collecting world which Transformers is a part of is a limited world of availability. There is no by-right clause to any of it.

While Thundercracker may be the most obvious issue in the discussion, every argument, both for and against his existance is usually biased and crass to the point that we end up not liking each other over it.

I think the next article I write will be on the nature of exclusives. We need to talk about it as it highlights one of the most ugly facts about this hobby: money talks (in more than one language).

Counterpunch wrote:I think the next article I write will be on the nature of exclusives. We need to talk about it as it highlights one of the most ugly facts about this hobby: money talks (in more than one language).

I think you should do this article. Exclusives does seem to be the one thing that triggers bad blood the most. I will admit to a keen level of irritation trying to track down the various exclusives I would like (mostly starscream or seekers). But that is because I am the wrong side of the border for most and a bit short of $$.

Anyway, you write that. you write good intellegent articles so, I think we could use one on the ugly nature of the fandom/hobby.