The Energon Pub

Counterpunch wrote:

DevastaTTor wrote:I totally get the point and I do sympathize with those who attended BotCon for this set only to see certain figures show up later on, regardless of who released it. It doesn't instill a lot of confidence in the BotCon organizers. The big time collectors have every right to vent. I'm sure if I was in their shoes, I'd feel like I was being screwed.

In addition to your point CP, the global market versus domestic just blurs those lines even more, especially with the two companies involved.

You know, as someone who went to the 07' convention and got a set (or two), I'm not even all that upset at the Henkei release. Actually, I'm not upset at all.

The hardest part for me in all of this is the small group of people who have spewed vicious hate and resentment both towards BotCon/Hasbro and towards fellow collectors. All of the collecting world which Transformers is a part of is a limited world of availability. There is no by-right clause to any of it.

While Thundercracker may be the most obvious issue in the discussion, every argument, both for and against his existance is usually biased and crass to the point that we end up not liking each other over it.

I think the next article I write will be on the nature of exclusives. We need to talk about it as it highlights one of the most ugly facts about this hobby: money talks (in more than one language).

That's a very timely idea and will be a great read.

Great point too about feelings towards Hasbro and event organizers. It's pretty cool that they do so much to support and cater to collectors. Hopefully, despite the hard feelings of some, everyone can put this to rest.

Now, if only I could find a way to actually attend BotCon someday!

First, I look forward to reading your article Counterpunch.

Second, I hate peaking into these threads as they tend to get a bit over my head, but I’m going to give my two cents on the matter anyway.

It’s not really got anything to do with value as stated. We really don’t collect for it’s value, it’s the fact that this exclusive was supposed to be sold only at Botcon. And no, it’s not that different, from what I could tell the only difference is that this one is a bit more detailed. This in mind makes the Botcon one that much more of a rip.

The rest of the 07 set still remains exclusive to Botcon, but this could very well change since after all, they’ve done it once, who’s to say we won’t see Thrust next year?

When it comes down to it, this is all really the fault of Hasbro. A Classics Thundercracker should have never been made because it was unavoidable that Takara would release it.

Why?

Because whereas Hasbro relies mostly on sales from kids, Takara relies mostly on sales from Otaku (Older collectors, ect). So the small crowd whining for it here, is the majority over there. Meaning when Saji-san and his friends complain and whine for their Thundercracker, it’s a lot of potential money being waved around in their face. With that in mind the Botcon attendees are actually a little on the lucky side as Takara Tomy could have made it a mass release.

Though they probably didn’t as I see that one causing a bit more of a stir. Still things could have been better, or worse for both ends.

I’m a little disappointed though to see that one entire year later we’re still right where we started, still going on with this. Still going on with the same old: “Your elitist!” “Well your retarded!” “Well you ____” ect. So, I’m going to say this is pretty much a two edged sword swinging both ways.

*waits for someone to tear my post into a million quotes*

The problem I have here is I can't see how Botcon TC is no longer exclusive. Yes, there's another TC toy coming out, but it won't look the same as the Botcon one. So what's the problem? Collectors, who are the only people who really give a damn, will still be able to tell the difference. So... what's the big deal?

Sledge wrote:The problem I have here is I can't see how Botcon TC is no longer exclusive. Yes, there's another TC toy coming out, but it won't look the same as the Botcon one. So what's the problem? Collectors, who are the only people who really give a damn, will still be able to tell the difference. So... what's the big deal?

It’s not much different and it’s got better details, if you compare it to the Botcon one it makes it look pathetic IMO.

But how does that make Botcon TC not an exclusive now?

Sledge wrote:But how does that make Botcon TC not an exclusive now?

Because like every Japanese release there are minor variations, but it is the same figure. Proof right now that lot's of people feel this way is that on e-bay they hae indeed fell to half the value that they wre prior to this announcement.

But your version of that mold is still exclusive. I cannot see how that has changed. I'm trying, but I just can't see it.

Sledge wrote:But your version of that mold is still exclusive. I cannot see how that has changed. I'm trying, but I just can't see it.

Because 90% or more of the figure is identical between BotCon and Henkei.

But it's not 100% the same. The figure you have still meets the criteria of "exclusive." There were 1500 of them made. No one else is making them, the only way to get them is to buy one of those 1500. The figure is exclusive now as it was then.

GetterDragun wrote:

Sledge wrote:But your version of that mold is still exclusive. I cannot see how that has changed. I'm trying, but I just can't see it.

Because 90% or more of the figure is identical between BotCon and Henkei.

Well, we can't be certain of that until we see actual product pics.

Henkei Thundercracker could be toy-blue. I actually expect him to be a significantly darker shade than the BotCon one. Compound that onto a few other things and the BotCon version ends up being much more 'toon accurate.

We'll just have to wait for a month or two till pictures are confirmed. The preview pictures for the Henkei releases are thus far just photoshop mock ups.

GetterDragun wrote:Because 90% or more of the figure is identical between BotCon and Henkei.

That simple statement justifies anyone's sore feelings about this whole situation.

Counterpunch wrote:In other words, while everyone seems to like the kind of cars that Porche makes, should we not permit them to be sold on the basis that most people will never be able to have one?

To me it seems more like the Porsche owners are complaining that Audi put out a TT that looked just like a Boxster. The people complaining it’s too expensive…whatever. That’s nonsense to me too. I mean, I agree it’s too expensive for what it is, but it’s supply and demand. Either pay it, paint your own, or shut up…

Sledge wrote:The problem I have here is I can't see how Botcon TC is no longer exclusive. Yes, there's another TC toy coming out, but it won't look the same as the Botcon one. So what's the problem? Collectors, who are the only people who really give a damn, will still be able to tell the difference. So... what's the big deal?

I agree.

GetterDragun wrote:Because like every Japanese release there are minor variations, but it is the same figure. Proof right now that lot's of people feel this way is that on e-bay they hae indeed fell to half the value that they wre prior to this announcement.

If monetary value has nothing to do with your stance, then what does this matter? I get the people that are bent that this affects its value…granted I don’t feel real sorry for them as it’s still worth at least what they paid, but I get it. Your figure is still just as exclusive and rare as it was, though. The character might not be, but there’s a difference between figure and character. To me, the only thing that’s changed is its value. If you’re not planning on selling it, then who cares?

I guess the best bet is they just start calling these figures “limited edition” instead of “exclusive.” Problem solved…

NotEnoughKibble wrote:

Counterpunch wrote:In other words, while everyone seems to like the kind of cars that Porche makes, should we not permit them to be sold on the basis that most people will never be able to have one?

To me it seems more like the Porsche owners are complaining that Audi put out a TT that looked just like a Boxster. The people complaining it’s too expensive…whatever. That’s nonsense to me too. I mean, I agree it’s too expensive for what it is, but it’s supply and demand. Either pay it, paint your own, or shut up…

Sledge wrote:The problem I have here is I can't see how Botcon TC is no longer exclusive. Yes, there's another TC toy coming out, but it won't look the same as the Botcon one. So what's the problem? Collectors, who are the only people who really give a damn, will still be able to tell the difference. So... what's the big deal?

I agree.

GetterDragun wrote:Because like every Japanese release there are minor variations, but it is the same figure. Proof right now that lot's of people feel this way is that on e-bay they hae indeed fell to half the value that they wre prior to this announcement.

If monetary value has nothing to do with your stance, then what does this matter? I get the people that are bent that this affects its value…granted I don’t feel real sorry for them as it’s still worth at least what they paid, but I get it. Your figure is still just as exclusive and rare as it was, though. The character might not be, but there’s a difference between figure and character. To me, the only thing that’s changed is its value. If you’re not planning on selling it, then who cares?

I guess the best bet is they just start calling these figures “limited edition” instead of “exclusive.” Problem solved…

I kenw someone would bring up my comment about e-bay, but it is proof that many peopl now feel Henkei is the same thing and will choose that instead. And on cars, the difference between BotCon and henkei TC is like someone having two identical cars in all sense except interior color and stating that they are so different because of the seat color.

NotEnoughKibble wrote:

Counterpunch wrote:In other words, while everyone seems to like the kind of cars that Porche makes, should we not permit them to be sold on the basis that most people will never be able to have one?

To me it seems more like the Porsche owners are complaining that Audi put out a TT that looked just like a Boxster. The people complaining it’s too expensive…whatever. That’s nonsense to me too. I mean, I agree it’s too expensive for what it is, but it’s supply and demand. Either pay it, paint your own, or shut up…

Sledge wrote:The problem I have here is I can't see how Botcon TC is no longer exclusive. Yes, there's another TC toy coming out, but it won't look the same as the Botcon one. So what's the problem? Collectors, who are the only people who really give a damn, will still be able to tell the difference. So... what's the big deal?

I agree.

GetterDragun wrote:Because like every Japanese release there are minor variations, but it is the same figure. Proof right now that lot's of people feel this way is that on e-bay they hae indeed fell to half the value that they wre prior to this announcement.

If monetary value has nothing to do with your stance, then what does this matter? I get the people that are bent that this affects its value…granted I don’t feel real sorry for them as it’s still worth at least what they paid, but I get it. Your figure is still just as exclusive and rare as it was, though. The character might not be, but there’s a difference between figure and character. To me, the only thing that’s changed is its value. If you’re not planning on selling it, then who cares?

I guess the best bet is they just start calling these figures “limited edition” instead of “exclusive.” Problem solved…

Yes...like I said in this or another Thundercracker topic, People should quit using the word "exclusive" and use the word "edition". I know it sounds better than saying "Botcon Edition", or "Limited Edition", or "Anime Edition" but that's seems like the only way to resolve this issue.

GetterDragun wrote:I kenw someone would bring up my comment about e-bay, but it is proof that many peopl now feel Henkei is the same thing and will choose that instead. And on cars, the difference between BotCon and henkei TC is like someone having two identical cars in all sense except interior color and stating that they are so different because of the seat color.

So what if they do? How does that affect you?

I don't think people are seeing the Botcon and Henkei TCs as the same. It's simply that buying the Henkei version is a lot cheaper than buying the Botcon one. Personally, I've ordered the Henkei version because I want a Classics Thundercracker, and this is the cheapest option. If someone offered me a Botcon one for less than the Henkei, I'd buy the Botcon. If both were the same price, I'd have to see which one I thought looked best.

NotEnoughKibble wrote:

GetterDragun wrote:I kenw someone would bring up my comment about e-bay, but it is proof that many peopl now feel Henkei is the same thing and will choose that instead. And on cars, the difference between BotCon and henkei TC is like someone having two identical cars in all sense except interior color and stating that they are so different because of the seat color.

So what if they do? How does that affect you?

He was told this would be Botcon exclusive. People say the Henkei one is different though. The prices on eBay are dropping on the Botcon version which makes it obvious that people see it as the same thing, there for it’s not different enough.

If Funpub can’t ensure their stuff is just what it says, they shouldn’t advertise it as Botcon exclusive.

I can't help but laugh, I really can't. Not at anyone's particular viewpoint on "exclusives" but just that it's all about this one in particular.

Other exclusives have come and gone, been reproduced in other countries. Others have remained as they are and never seen the light of day outside their original product run... Yet, Thundercracker has inspired countless threads that have been cropping up for over a year since his inception, and he's managed to piss off just about everyone on either side of the coin. I can see Thundercracker going on to be a character with somewhat of a permanent taboo attached to his name, as whenever it's mentioned people will always think back to this debacle.

Thundercracker... he really must be a special guy.

Good point. Somehow I don't see this debate cropping up over the two up-coming exclusive Nemesis Primes. I wonder why that is?

I think everyone’s been blowing this whole thing out of proportion.

Thundercracker’s not that different and the Botcon attendees got a bit of the shaft here.

But so far Thundercracker is the only case. I don’t think there’s the need to quit buying exclusives forever just cause of this.

I’ve seen waaaaaaaaaaay too much exaggerating and jumping to conclusions on both sides of the debate and frankly, I wish we could drop this and just go on.

Instead we decide to call names and act like idiots in some backwards notion it’ll change the outcome of this.

NotEnoughKibble wrote:

GetterDragun wrote:I kenw someone would bring up my comment about e-bay, but it is proof that many peopl now feel Henkei is the same thing and will choose that instead. And on cars, the difference between BotCon and henkei TC is like someone having two identical cars in all sense except interior color and stating that they are so different because of the seat color.

So what if they do? How does that affect you?

It effects people that made an effort to go to BotCon because they were told that this would be the only place they could ever get those figures. Would you spend thoushands of dollars to get a figure that you could eventually get through a store?

The effort created to get these figures was based on the premise that there would be only one place to get it, so yeah, making them available through someother channel isn't fair.

Actually, I just thought of what bothers me. As a collector of Transformers,I like to look at the figures and see a story for each one. An exclusvive ris representative of a specific event for why it was exclusive, and that creates a story behind it. Having a unique history for a figure makes it fun to pursue them and collect them. By eliminating that characteristic of collecting, it makes it less fun, it commoditizes the item instead of making it an incentive to continue collecting.

Ok, let's work this out. The Botcon '07 set was $279. The five figures it consisted of, if they were sold at normal retail prices, would have cost $60 (assuming that they weren't done as double packs or something). That means the set was sold at 4.65 times the price of those molds as they were sold in the Classics line. Working on this price point, that gives Botcon TC an individual price of $46.50.

My Henkei TC will be setting me back in the area of $70 (I won't have a confirmed shipping cost until the figure is released). So Botcon TC was cheaper than the Henkei version. If people are selling him now for $100, that's still over twice his original price.

With that in mind, I really can't see the problem here. Botcon TC remains an exclusive (as much as anything remains exclusive in this hobby) and he was cheaper than the one I'm buying. Even if you only bought the set for TC, you could have easily made you money back (or more) selling the rest of the figures on ebay.

Sledge wrote:Ok, let's work this out. The Botcon '07 set was $279. The five figures it consisted of, if they were sold at normal retail prices, would have cost $60 (assuming that they weren't done as double packs or something). That means the set was sold at 4.65 times the price of those molds as they were sold in the Classics line. Working on this price point, that gives Botcon TC an individual price of $46.50.

My Henkei TC will be setting me back in the area of $70 (I won't have a confirmed shipping cost until the figure is released). So Botcon TC was cheaper than the Henkei version. If people are selling him now for $100, that's still over twice his original price.

With that in mind, I really can't see the problem here. Botcon TC remains an exclusive (as much as anything remains exclusive in this hobby) and he was cheaper than the one I'm buying. Even if you only bought the set for TC, you could have easily made you money back (or more) selling the rest of the figures on ebay.

That's fine and dandy, but you don't account for the loss of exclusivity. And read my post above, it has nothing to do with selling the figure.

There is a smart car, for example, since we are using cars... that is called grandstyle Smart. It is a limited edition. There is only 200 of them. Rather attractive, I must say. It has a grand style logo, it is numbered, beige leather seats. But you can still buy smarts that look just like it, just not ones that are called grand style.

Also if you change an interior of a car, it is not the same as the interior of the next car. for example, I am not to hot on the red interior of a smart, but I do rather like the gentle stream green interior. You can change the pannels on a smart from the ruby red to scratched black. All in all it's the same car and at the same time it is also very different.

Botcon Thundercracker was basically a Limited Edition botcon Exclusive. So exclusive and edition work correctly in it's case. Botcon and Henkei are different Thundercrackers. They simply share a mold.