The Energon Pub

[Uniprimus]

TRAMP: get it through your thick skull that TUG is not god. Other canon is just on the same level of 'canon ness' as the guide.

And I don't see how ended lines such as G1 can include Primus/Unicron as gods.

I don't like there only being 1 Unicron in the multiverse thing. I like all my characters with seperate persnalities (IE G1 Prime/RID Prime/AEC Prime.).

Why can't you just understand the concept?

Primus exists n all alternate universes but they are the same.

I DON"T FREAKING UNDERSTAND.

[Liege Evilmus]

I enjow those others as well but I'm a full blowen Trekie and a Dragon Ball nut and I've been reading comics since I was 6 years old.Its Amazing I've been married twice and have 3 confirmed kids.[ long story]

My brother in law is full blown, which is hysterical because my sister hates anything sci-fi.

He knows I apreciate it, but he'll start talking to me about very specific details. Once he wanted me to go to a speak Klingon class with him, and I had to walk away.

Later he tried to redem himself to me as bring me to a (is it) Batlet class(you know, the thing your avatar is holding). I brought the sword on the third one down in the pic I'm gonna ad. All these guys dressed up as warriors talking all stuff about the battle of nutgrab4 and all that with there curved blades would not get up!

The best had to be after First Contact, me, my brother-in-law, my sister, and one of his friends went to the movie. It ends, my sister and I are leaving with the rest of out party alittle ahead of us. She looked at me and said "that wasn't so bad", and I agreed.

Everytone stopped filing out, and looked at us like she just compaired Hitler to Christ!

A dude in with a Warf sash walked up to me pissed. Yo, I looked him dead in the eye and asked him to step back, that act punked out the whole theater.

These are things that prevent me from becoming a full blown fan of stuff like this, and just prefer to do my own things with what I like, still if it works for ya, I say enjoy!

Your good people, and if that's what you enjoy, trust me, I'm not knocking you, I'm just adding some anicdotes to my support of your prefernce

[Liege Evilmus]

TRAMP: get it through your thick skull that TUG is not god. Other canon is just on the same level of 'canon ness' as the guide.

And I don't see how ended lines such as G1 can include Primus/Unicron as gods.

I don't like there only being 1 Unicron in the multiverse thing. I like all my characters with seperate persnalities (IE G1 Prime/RID Prime/AEC Prime.).

Why can't you just understand the concept?

Primus exists n all alternate universes but they are the same.

I DON"T FREAKING UNDERSTAND.

My friend, with the example you started with, what your doing in addressing this menatlity is like asking a priest to explain the science of evolution.

You can't expect an answer other than "Cause that's what I believe cause it's in my book"

If you wanna fight him over this, go ahead...

I just want to intervien and say I enjoyed sharing ideas with you over the past couple days. The introductions of new concepts, and sharing our ideas was quite refreshing and healthy food for thought.

I'd like to continue this sharing of ideas later on, weither they based on something from preexisting media, of a new idea.

But now it's getting alittle late, so it'll have to wait for later. Good Luck in your journies!

[Tramp]

TRAMP: get it through your thick skull that TUG is not god. Other canon is just on the same level of 'canon ness' as the guide.

And I don't see how ended lines such as G1 can include Primus/Unicron as gods.

I don't like there only being 1 Unicron in the multiverse thing. I like all my characters with seperate persnalities (IE G1 Prime/RID Prime/AEC Prime.).

Why can't you just understand the concept?

Primus exists n all alternate universes but they are the same.

I DON"T FREAKING UNDERSTAND.

Eradicator, all of the various characters (i.e. G1 Prime, RID Prime, AEC Prime, etc. are all completely different characters with their own distinct personalites. RID Prime is not AEC Prime. AEC Prime is not G1 Prime. No one said that they were the same character. You asked why Unicron is the same Unicron in every universe and how can he travel between them while Primus exists in every reality at once. I and others have been trying to explain that from canon. In that regards, the Ultimate Guide is the highest authoritative source because it contains all of the retcons Hasbro made. I am not saying you have to agree with it. All I am saying is it answers your question as far as canon is concerned. If you choose to apply your own theories on how you would like it to work, that is fine. As for how ended lines like G1 can include Primus and Unicron as gods, it was G1 (particularly the Marvel comics) that first established Primus and Unicron as gods. It isn't a new concept. It was one established very early on. As gods, they can transcend realities.

[Liege Evilmus]

I'm not trying to quell any ideas. In fact, in a number of discussions I have put forth ideas which whle supported by canon, were not specifically shown as definately occuring, and having those theories shot down by individuals (who will not be named) who felt those were impossible and did have a very narrow view, to the point of wanting to completely exclude Japanese sources as well as DW and the Ultimate Guide simply because they did support the theories put forth, all because these individuals felt that they were right and would not accept a differing view or a new theory even when there was evidence which supported it though not prove it. If there are interesting ideas, and workable theories, I'm all for them. What I'm not all for is people saying that a personal idea overrides canon or that one personal view is right over another personal view even when that second view is supported by canon. I am not all for someone saying a canon source—no matter what that source is—doesn't matter and should be ignored. New ideas is fine, and I'm all for them. Telling someon that a canon source isn't canon and should be ignored is not fine.

Well stated, but depending on the context of the imediate discusion as it evolves in a topic, the idea or canon or personal preference may not be nesicary or relivant.

Mentioning either is one thing, insisting is another upon one is another.

[Tramp]

I'm not trying to quell any ideas. In fact, in a number of discussions I have put forth ideas which whle supported by canon, were not specifically shown as definately occuring, and having those theories shot down by individuals (who will not be named) who felt those were impossible and did have a very narrow view, to the point of wanting to completely exclude Japanese sources as well as DW and the Ultimate Guide simply because they did support the theories put forth, all because these individuals felt that they were right and would not accept a differing view or a new theory even when there was evidence which supported it though not prove it. If there are interesting ideas, and workable theories, I'm all for them. What I'm not all for is people saying that a personal idea overrides canon or that one personal view is right over another personal view even when that second view is supported by canon. I am not all for someone saying a canon source—no matter what that source is—doesn't matter and should be ignored. New ideas is fine, and I'm all for them. Telling someon that a canon source isn't canon and should be ignored is not fine.

Well stated, but depending on the context of the imediate discusion as it evolves in a topic, the idea or canon or personal preference may not be nesicary or relivant.

Mentioning either is one thing, insisting is another upon one is another.

Very true, by the same token repeatedly asking people to explain a canon concept saying you don't understand it, then rejecting the answers given and their sources, because they go against your preconceived notions, and still looking for the "right answer" repeating that you don't understand it, is a bit frustrating. It seems like that is what this thread is really about is Eradicator trying to prove that Primus and Unicron are completely different entities in each reality, not discovering why Primus exists in all realities at once as a single being while Unicron exists in each reality one at a time.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

I enjow those others as well but I'm a full blowen Trekie and a Dragon Ball nut and I've been reading comics since I was 6 years old.Its Amazing I've been married twice and have 3 confirmed kids.[ long story]

My brother in law is full blown, which is hysterical because my sister hates anything sci-fi.

He knows I apreciate it, but he'll start talking to me about very specific details. Once he wanted me to go to a speak Klingon class with him, and I had to walk away.

Later he tried to redem himself to me as bring me to a (is it) Batlet class(you know, the thing your avatar is holding). I brought the sword on the third one down in the pic I'm gonna ad. All these guys dressed up as warriors talking all stuff about the battle of nutgrab4 and all that with there curved blades would not get up!

The best had to be after First Contact, me, my brother-in-law, my sister, and one of his friends went to the movie. It ends, my sister and I are leaving with the rest of out party alittle ahead of us. She looked at me and said "that wasn't so bad", and I agreed.

Everytone stopped filing out, and looked at us like she just compaired Hitler to Christ!

A dude in with a Warf sash walked up to me pissed. Yo, I looked him dead in the eye and asked him to step back, that act punked out the whole theater.

These are things that prevent me from becoming a full blown fan of stuff like this, and just prefer to do my own things with what I like, still if it works for ya, I say enjoy!

Your good people, and if that's what you enjoy, trust me, I'm not knocking you, I'm just adding some anicdotes to my support of your prefernce

I've dressed up as a Klingon for Halloween and conventions but that it.And I have a few Klingon props that I bought at some conventions.......but I also have props from the Blade movie's Batman movies Star Wars and others in my collection.

[i_amtrunks]

Please keep in mind, this is only how I work making sense of everything.

G1 through Japan is what it is. G2 is a step towards the evolution to The Beast Era, which began with a trip back in time.
For a short time Otimus Primal, carried Prime's spark. During this time, time itself warped creating a present in which RID occured.
Prime's spark was restored, the events of history went back to normal.
------------------------
Key side note, the sentient remains of Unicron, took advantge of this flux, and remined in the past, thehead cocooning into one of the moons to regenerate a new body. It's fractured planet side parts, spawned minicons like maggots.
------------------------------

Later BW megs took G1 Megs spark for a longer time creating another rift, with the unexpected into of things like minicons, this story becomes Armada, Energon, and Cybertron.

TF Classics are new bodies for tired G1 figures who don't want to give up the struggle, The Alts, are like a royal version of that.

The movie toys are new characters spawned from the sparks that touched Primus when he awoke....
-------------------------------------------
In all of this, 1 Primus, 1 Unicron(actualy he managed to split his body as I have 3, but he's the same guy in 1 universe).

All the different Primes and Megatrons and everyone else that have many figures, divide a portion of their spark off when ever a new body is built. It gives them individuality, but a shared mental kinship with others who share a piece of that spark.
---------------------------------------------
This isn't canon, it's just how my collection and the various stories make sense to me. Things like having a zillion of the same guy can get confusing. And the whole "alternate universe" thing is a cop out for writers to be lazy and just make it up as they go along instead of working on a single quality story.

Like it or lump it, thats all it is, my idea.

I have no problem with everyone having their own versions of Transformers mythology, and this thread has been very good at letting people discuss their own theories, many of them have been quite well thought out, and I have enjoyed reading through them. I just wish that this thread was just that, discussion and theories, not having "the Ultimate Guide shoved down peoples throats because what they choose to think/believe is not exactly what that particular book says.

[Tramp]

I'm not trying to shove anything down anyones throat. I'm trying to asnwer Eradicator's question about how Primus can exist in every reality at the same time while still being a single entitiy yet Unicron travels between realities, in such a way that he understands it, which he continually claims not to be able to do. Is that really what he wants to know or does he simply want to prove that a fallacy because it doesn't fit his idea of the Transformers?

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Is that really what he wants to know or does he simply want to prove that a fallacy because it doesn't fit his idea of the Transformers?

I've been wondering the same thing as well!!!!I dont think it a very diffecult concept to understand.I may not like the idea but I understand it.

[Auto Bot]

I can't understand.

[Liege Evilmus]

Please keep in mind, this is only how I work making sense of everything.

G1 through Japan is what it is. G2 is a step towards the evolution to The Beast Era, which began with a trip back in time.
For a short time Otimus Primal, carried Prime's spark. During this time, time itself warped creating a present in which RID occured.
Prime's spark was restored, the events of history went back to normal.
------------------------
Key side note, the sentient remains of Unicron, took advantge of this flux, and remined in the past, thehead cocooning into one of the moons to regenerate a new body. It's fractured planet side parts, spawned minicons like maggots.
------------------------------

Later BW megs took G1 Megs spark for a longer time creating another rift, with the unexpected into of things like minicons, this story becomes Armada, Energon, and Cybertron.

TF Classics are new bodies for tired G1 figures who don't want to give up the struggle, The Alts, are like a royal version of that.

The movie toys are new characters spawned from the sparks that touched Primus when he awoke....
-------------------------------------------
In all of this, 1 Primus, 1 Unicron(actualy he managed to split his body as I have 3, but he's the same guy in 1 universe).

All the different Primes and Megatrons and everyone else that have many figures, divide a portion of their spark off when ever a new body is built. It gives them individuality, but a shared mental kinship with others who share a piece of that spark.
---------------------------------------------
This isn't canon, it's just how my collection and the various stories make sense to me. Things like having a zillion of the same guy can get confusing. And the whole "alternate universe" thing is a cop out for writers to be lazy and just make it up as they go along instead of working on a single quality story.

Like it or lump it, thats all it is, my idea.

I have no problem with everyone having their own versions of Transformers mythology, and this thread has been very good at letting people discuss their own theories, many of them have been quite well thought out, and I have enjoyed reading through them. I just wish that this thread was just that, discussion and theories, not having "the Ultimate Guide shoved down peoples throats because what they choose to think/believe is not exactly what that particular book says.

The topic did start off looking for canon. Then the discussion took a turn and we started sharing our ideas that we derived based on printed and aired facts.

A healthy conversation often does that.

I'm glad you enjoyed the theories, I only listed my opinion of how everything ties together, which is based on facts, to point out that there can be more than one workable oppinion, as well as see what some people thought about it.

I kinda think of it like on Star Trek when they'd go through something that would alter time. It was always the same ship, the same people, but what we were watching was the outcome of whatever initial events changed. When things got set back to right, everything always returned to normal.

Again, it's just another take on the existing facts. I have fun coming up with this stuff, I enjoy hearing what other's think about it, and it's always nice to hear there oppinions on how this all works as well.

It was a good time helping Eradicator work out some of his own ideas, I even made a couple more friends here in the process. It's sad though, to see such a good, civil, twist in topic getting squashed by one adimant idea.

A reed that does not bend will surely break!

[Uniprimus]

...

Ok, I am gonna just fanfic/fanon/fanwank my own story (like I think a lot of people do).

[Uniprimus]

TRAMP: get it through your thick skull that TUG is not god. Other canon is just on the same level of 'canon ness' as the guide.

And I don't see how ended lines such as G1 can include Primus/Unicron as gods.

I don't like there only being 1 Unicron in the multiverse thing. I like all my characters with seperate persnalities (IE G1 Prime/RID Prime/AEC Prime.).

Why can't you just understand the concept?

Primus exists n all alternate universes but they are the same.

I DON"T FREAKING UNDERSTAND.

Eradicator, all of the various characters (i.e. G1 Prime, RID Prime, AEC Prime, etc. are all completely different characters with their own distinct personalites. RID Prime is not AEC Prime. AEC Prime is not G1 Prime. No one said that they were the same character. You asked why Unicron is the same Unicron in every universe and how can he travel between them while Primus exists in every reality at once. I and others have been trying to explain that from canon. In that regards, the Ultimate Guide is the highest authoritative source because it contains all of the retcons Hasbro made. I am not saying you have to agree with it. All I am saying is it answers your question as far as canon is concerned. If you choose to apply your own theories on how you would like it to work, that is fine. As for how ended lines like G1 can include Primus and Unicron as gods, it was G1 (particularly the Marvel comics) that first established Primus and Unicron as gods. It isn't a new concept. It was one established very early on. As gods, they can transcend realities.

BTW, Tramp, looking through the super powerful ultra omega supreme ultimate guide, I did not see ANYTGHING that said There is one Unicron in the multiverse, and Primus exists in all of them (unless I missed it.).

[Tramp]

Page 50 of the Ultimate Guide is what states that Unicron travels from universe to universe. It states:

It crushed and consumed planets, and infected the very substance of space itself with a chaotic virus that undid the order of the Universe. When nothing remained, Unicron rested—before moving on to start the process again in one of the countless parallel universes.—Transformeres: The Ultimate Guide page 50

Page 53 of the Ultimate Guide intimates Primus existing simultaniously in all realities. Read through all of the text on that page, in particular these passages:

Both heralds spread their entirety accross new planets throughout many realities, seeding the future. But as Primus gained sentience, he realized that Unicron had become a force for chaos, destroying all they had created. Wise and in touch with all living things, Primus became champion of Order, vowing to safeguard the Universe—Transformers: the Ultimate Guide page 53.

Like Unicron, Primus had two modes (planet and robot), but rarely assumed his robot mode, wishing rather to be a part of the Universe, connected on a planetary level to its ebbes and flows.—Transformers: the Ultimate Guide[/i] page 53.

These and the other passages about him all point to his needing to exist in all realities simultaneously. All realities have Cybertron. It doesn't travel from reality to reality, and all Cybertrons are the one Primus. So, yes, it does indeed state that Primus exists in all realities at once, while Unicron exists in each one at a time. It just doesn't say it word for word in one neat little sentence.

[Uniprimus]

Ohhhhh...

Well, I just noticed the Unicron thing (thanks!), but how does that 2nd and 3rd quote say that there is a Primus in every universe? It really doesn't say that...

[Tramp]

Ohhhhh...

Well, I just noticed the Unicron thing (thanks!), but how does that 2nd and 3rd quote say that there is a Primus in every universe? It really doesn't say that...

Yes, it does. Just not on so many words. Primus is Cybertron, and both he and Unicron were created by The One to explore the multiverse and seed it. They were created as The One's heralds. When Unicron began to destroy creation, Primus took on the role of protecting all of creation and all of its myriad realities, taking on the form of the planet Cybertron which exists simultaneously in every reality. Thus, Primus exists simultaneously in every reality, though there is only one Primus. The One only created one Primus and one Unicron and they both looked after and helped to create the multiverse before Unicron turned to evil and sought to destroy all of creation.

[Liege Evilmus]

Ohhhhh...

Well, I just noticed the Unicron thing (thanks!), but how does that 2nd and 3rd quote say that there is a Primus in every universe? It really doesn't say that...

Yes, it does. Just not on so many words. Primus is Cybertron, and both he and Unicron were created by The One to explore the multiverse and seed it. They were created as The One's heralds. When Unicron began to destroy creation, Primus took on the role of protecting all of creation and all of its myriad realities, taking on the form of the planet Cybertron which exists simultaneously in every reality. Thus, Primus exists simultaneously in every reality, though there is only one Primus. The One only created one Primus and one Unicron and they both looked after and helped to create the multiverse before Unicron turned to evil and sought to destroy all of creation.

If "not in so many words" could that mean that you just tweeked the facts to make them accepable to you. Much like (and yes your right alot of us have) so many of us did to make sense of all the various media out there in our own rights?

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Ohhhhh...

Well, I just noticed the Unicron thing (thanks!), but how does that 2nd and 3rd quote say that there is a Primus in every universe? It really doesn't say that...

yes it does here I'll hi light it for you


Quote:
Both heralds spread their entirety accross new planets throughout many realities, seeding the future. But as Primus gained sentience, he realized that Unicron had become a force for chaos, destroying all they had created. Wise and in touch with all living things, Primus became champion of Order, vowing to safeguard the Universe—Transformers: the Ultimate Guide page 53.

The word realities is an other word for universe or demensions

[Malicron]

I really don’t think you can say Primus and Unicron are the same in every universe, their stories just change to much from continuity to continuity to say they’re the same character, no mater what the “Ultimate” guide says.

Sorry, Tramp.

[Tramp]

Ohhhhh...

Well, I just noticed the Unicron thing (thanks!), but how does that 2nd and 3rd quote say that there is a Primus in every universe? It really doesn't say that...

Yes, it does. Just not on so many words. Primus is Cybertron, and both he and Unicron were created by The One to explore the multiverse and seed it. They were created as The One's heralds. When Unicron began to destroy creation, Primus took on the role of protecting all of creation and all of its myriad realities, taking on the form of the planet Cybertron which exists simultaneously in every reality. Thus, Primus exists simultaneously in every reality, though there is only one Primus. The One only created one Primus and one Unicron and they both looked after and helped to create the multiverse before Unicron turned to evil and sought to destroy all of creation.

If "not in so many words" could that mean that you just tweeked the facts to make them accepable to you. Much like (and yes your right alot of us have) so many of us did to make sense of all the various media out there in our own rights?

No, it doesn't weaken it because the full text explains it in detail through detailing their origins rather than summing it up in a simple sentence. It is the details of their histories and their connection to all of these realities that shows this. The whole point of theor origin text is that they were created at the beginning of creation just after the "Big Bang" to watch over all of creation throughout the multiverse, yet Unicron sought to destroy it, so Primus took it upon himself to protect it. In order to protect all of creation, he needs to exist in all relities at the same time. Unicron doesn't. He can go from one to another consuming them one at a time.

And Whinert-Tron, while the stories themselves may differe from one reality to the next, the one thing theyt all have in common is Unicron, Primus, and the Original 13.

[Malicron]

Unicron, Primus, and the original 13 are not mentioned in the vast majority of Transformers universes, it really makes more sense to take each continuity’s characters as separate.

I still like the multivers theory, though.

[Tramp]

Unicron, Primus, and the original 13 are not mentioned in the vast majority of Transformers universes, it really makes more sense to take each continuity’s characters as separate.

I still like the multivers theory, though.

Actually, yes they are. Vector Prime from Cybertron/Galaxy Force is one of the Oiginal 13, who also are part of the G1 universe. The only reality we don't have direct mention of Primus, Unicron and the Original 13 is RID, and that is still connected through the Universe storyline. A number of the characters (not just toys) brought into Universe were from the RID reality.

[Night Striker]

Best way to look at it like this.

Primus and Unicron have the same COREconnections. That means that while they have different personalities, ideas and yada yada to convert them to that reality, their basic underlineing goals stay the same.

Unicron: wants to destroy everything.

Primus: Wants to protect everything.

Orignal 13: Were created by Primus as a source of protection.

That stays the same through all version and Reboots. Which is what the multiverse truely is. A bunch of huge reboots. Period.

[Tramp]

The kicker is though that Primus and Unicron have the exact same personalities and motiviations and everything in all realities. There is no difference at all regardless of the reality.