The Energon Pub

I'm not sYing Bucky should be punished/held accountable, only that he needs the chance to actually explain himself; Cap shouldn't have been helping him escape capture the way he was.

If Cap had issues with the accords, he should have taken them to the group that was ratifying it. Instead of outright refusal, he should've advocated patience. He doesn't agree that the UN should have the final say in when and where the Avengers can do what they do, that's fine. My issue is that, for everyone's talk about compromise, Cap is absolutely stubborn to the point of dickishness. He won't even consider listening to anyone except the people who agree with him.

Ah but cap took inspiration from what Sharon said at the funeral. Can't remember what exactly what was said but it was along the lines of "compromise where you can and where you can't, don't" so the issue of people with agendas having control over the avengers is something that he couldn't compromise with and was the heart of the accord.

Now Bucky galvanised cap on this, as was shown when it looked like he was going to sign. Honestly, do you think they would of listened to bucky if he tried?

I respect the approach the film makers have took though, giving good reasons for and against the viewpoints. Though the sokovia accord will be used against them soon enough I reckon.

Now I wonder what effect, if any it will have on agents of shield...

Burn wrote:

Rodimus Prime wrote:I still say it should have been called an Avengers movie, not a Captain America movie.

(Going to remove the spoiler tags to discuss this as they're not necessary)

See, I disagree to an extent. If anything, the Captain America moves aren't JUST about Captain America, having seen all three you can step back and look at them and say "These movies are about Bucky too".

Which, given his lack of involvement in the Avengers, make it a Captain America movie.

The flip side of that is that there are many more members of the Avengers as major characters in the movie. If they wanted to avoid calling it "Avengers: Civil War" they could have just as easily called it "Iron Man: Civil War" as Tony was just as prominent a character as Rogers. They were 2 equal sides of an issue, and having it be called a "Captain America" movie automatically tilts the argument in Cap's favor, as it makes Tony the main bad guy in the film, as he opposes Cap's views. Had it been called an Iron Man movie, it would have made Cap the bad guy. Zemo was just a catalyst, as was Bucky. The reason this should be called an Avengers movie, because it was about the destruction of the Avengers from the inside, as Zemo himself explained. It wasn't about the downfall of Captain America, even though he had a faulty ideal regarding Bucky and became a criminal, that was only a part of the story. And regardless of how Bucky should have been treated, (yes, he was more of a tool than a willing participant, but that doesn't excuse the murders of Howard Stark, his wife, and many others.) Cap defending him and helping him escape was not the right thing. At the same time, what the government and Ross had planned wasn't right either. But still, if someone had killed my parents, regardless of the circumstances, they would have paid. So I'm still on Tony's side.

ZeroWolf wrote:Ah but cap took inspiration from what Sharon said at the funeral. Can't remember what exactly what was said but it was along the lines of "compromise where you can and where you can't, don't" so the issue of people with agendas having control over the avengers is something that he couldn't compromise with and was the heart of the accord.

Not to mention, after the Government let Hydra operatives walk right into SHIELD and burn it to the ground, Cap is just a tad less trusting in these sort of matters.

Rodimus Prime wrote:And regardless of how Bucky should have been treated, (yes, he was more of a tool than a willing participant, but that doesn't excuse the murders of Howard Stark, his wife, and many others.) Cap defending him and helping him escape was not the right thing. At the same time, what the government and Ross had planned wasn't right either. But still, if someone had killed my parents, regardless of the circumstances, they would have paid. So I'm still on Tony's side.

and if you make Bucky pay for those deaths, then you are making the wrong person pay.

should Tony Stark be punished for every death his tech has facilitated?
should you be punished if your car is stolen and the thief kills someone in the getaway?
should the creator/designer of that car be punished instead of you?

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Rodimus Prime wrote:And regardless of how Bucky should have been treated, (yes, he was more of a tool than a willing participant, but that doesn't excuse the murders of Howard Stark, his wife, and many others.) Cap defending him and helping him escape was not the right thing. At the same time, what the government and Ross had planned wasn't right either. But still, if someone had killed my parents, regardless of the circumstances, they would have paid. So I'm still on Tony's side.

and if you make Bucky pay for those deaths, then you are making the wrong person pay.

You know what? For once I agree with you. Bucky was being controlled to do what he did. I don't believe he was a murderer. The only question I have is when Bucky said to Tony "I remember all of them." it indicated that he did have some control and awareness. So did he try to do anything and everything he could to fight the mind control?

Rodimus Prime wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Rodimus Prime wrote:And regardless of how Bucky should have been treated, (yes, he was more of a tool than a willing participant, but that doesn't excuse the murders of Howard Stark, his wife, and many others.) Cap defending him and helping him escape was not the right thing. At the same time, what the government and Ross had planned wasn't right either. But still, if someone had killed my parents, regardless of the circumstances, they would have paid. So I'm still on Tony's side.

and if you make Bucky pay for those deaths, then you are making the wrong person pay.

You know what? For once I agree with you. Bucky was being controlled to do what he did. I don't believe he was a murderer. The only question I have is when Bucky said to Tony "I remember all of them." it indicated that he did have some control and awareness. So did he try to do anything and everything he could to fight the mind control?

I took that line to be more he was forced to watch as his body operated on it's own, we saw home fight each time they started those commands to activate their control but sometimes willpower isn't enough to fight battles like that

ZeroWolf wrote:I took that line to be more he was forced to watch as his body operated on it's own, we saw home fight each time they started those commands to activate their control but sometimes willpower isn't enough to fight battles like that

Yeah, I know he said it out of horror as if talking about a nightmare. But I would like to know what exactly Hydra did to him to be able to use him like that. Could it be simple hypnosis? I saw Winter Soldier only once in theaters, so I don't remember if it was explained.

Rodimus Prime wrote:

ZeroWolf wrote:I took that line to be more he was forced to watch as his body operated on it's own, we saw home fight each time they started those commands to activate their control but sometimes willpower isn't enough to fight battles like that

Yeah, I know he said it out of horror as if talking about a nightmare. But I would like to know what exactly Hydra did to him to be able to use him like that. Could it be simple hypnosis? I saw Winter Soldier only once in theaters, so I don't remember if it was explained.

"Trigger phrases" are a very old concept in storytelling. Rarely is it ever explained how it's done, outside of "brainwashing", though I would assume it would be a combination of hypnosis, drugs, and torture, all wrapped up in Pavlovian psychology. Kind of like the Ludovico treatment from Clockwork Orange in reverse.

Rodimus Prime wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Rodimus Prime wrote:And regardless of how Bucky should have been treated, (yes, he was more of a tool than a willing participant, but that doesn't excuse the murders of Howard Stark, his wife, and many others.) Cap defending him and helping him escape was not the right thing. At the same time, what the government and Ross had planned wasn't right either. But still, if someone had killed my parents, regardless of the circumstances, they would have paid. So I'm still on Tony's side.

and if you make Bucky pay for those deaths, then you are making the wrong person pay.

You know what? For once I agree with you. Bucky was being controlled to do what he did. I don't believe he was a murderer. The only question I have is when Bucky said to Tony "I remember all of them." it indicated that he did have some control and awareness. So did he try to do anything and everything he could to fight the mind control?

im going to see the film later so ill give you my opinion later , but i will say this now, when Bucky saying to Tony or anyone that he remember everything he did when controlled is, by itself NOT IN ANY WAY a indicated that he did have any control and awareness what so ever at the times of those crimes.

I believe you are a star trek fan, in not then ask a trekie, Picard was aware of his actions and remembers everything he was forced to do when he was "turned" into a Borg, Data remembers actions he was forced to do in times his body was controlled by an outside force.

as to if he try to do anything and everything he could to fight the mind control.....we saw that in the last Captain america film, he started fighting his programing after his first encounter with Steve, so Hidra "re-booted" his programing[/quote]

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:but i will say this now, when Bucky saying to Tony or anyone that he remember everything he did when controlled is, by itself NOT IN ANY WAY a indicated that he did have any control and awareness what so ever at the times of those crimes.

Okay, that's contradictory. If he remembered, he HAD to be aware. Unless you're trying to say that Bucky was making it up when [spoiler]he said he "remembered every one of them," and he didn't. But why would he claim that then?

I'm a casual Trek fan, seen most of the movies, and some episodes of TOS, TNG and DS9, and the Voyager series.

**Okay, for some reason the end-spoiler tag isn't working**

Rodimus Prime wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:but i will say this now, when Bucky saying to Tony or anyone that he remember everything he did when controlled is, by itself NOT IN ANY WAY a indicated that he did have any control and awareness what so ever at the times of those crimes.

Okay, that's contradictory. If he remembered, he HAD to be aware. Unless you're trying to say that Bucky was making it up when [spoiler]he said he "remembered every one of them," and he didn't. But why would he claim that then?

I'm a casual Trek fan, seen most of the movies, and some episodes of TOS, TNG and DS9, and the Voyager series.

**Okay, for some reason the end-spoiler tag isn't working**

It's very common in "mind control" stories for the person being controlled to remember everything that happened to them. That does not mean they weren't being mind controlled.

Rodimus Prime wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:but i will say this now, when Bucky saying to Tony or anyone that he remember everything he did when controlled is, by itself NOT IN ANY WAY a indicated that he did have any control and awareness what so ever at the times of those crimes.

Okay, that's contradictory. If he remembered, he HAD to be aware. Unless you're trying to say that Bucky was making it up when he said he "remembered every of them," and he didn't. But why would he claim that then?

theres no contradiction, there are different levels of "awareness", and remembering things afteer does not indicate the level of awareness at the time of the crime.............and no indication of possible self control can b e made by the line itself

and no i dont think bucky was lying

I'm a casual Trek fan, seen most of the movies, and some episodes of TOS, TNG and DS9, and the Voyager series.

then are you familiar with the even that turned picard into a borg?

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:there's no contradiction, there are different levels of "awareness", and remembering things after does not indicate the level of awareness at the time of the crime

Is this your opinion, or do you have medical data to back up your statement?

I'm a casual Trek fan, seen most of the movies, and some episodes of TOS, TNG and DS9, and the Voyager series.

then are you familiar with the even that turned picard into a borg?

No, I don't believe I ever saw that.

Rodimus Prime wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:there's no contradiction, there are different levels of "awareness", and remembering things after does not indicate the level of awareness at the time of the crime

Is this your opinion, or do you have medical data to back up your statement?

I'm a casual Trek fan, seen most of the movies, and some episodes of TOS, TNG and DS9, and the Voyager series.

then are you familiar with the even that turned picard into a borg?

No, I don't believe I ever saw that.

"Best of Both Worlds." Two-parter episode, and easily among the best the franchise has to offer.

Shadowman wrote:"Best of Both Worlds." Two-parter episode, and easily among the best the franchise has to offer.

I will check it out. I like the TNG crew and their movies, even if I like Kirk more than Picard.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. Marvel, more specifically Captain America. Is everyone OK with him getting it on with his dead girlfriend's niece? OK, they just kissed, but still. Peggy hadn't been cold for more than about 2 days!

Rodimus Prime wrote:

Shadowman wrote:"Best of Both Worlds." Two-parter episode, and easily among the best the franchise has to offer.

I will check it out. I like the TNG crew and their movies, even if I like Kirk more than Picard.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. Marvel, more specifically Captain America. Is everyone OK with him getting it on with his dead girlfriend's niece? OK, they just kissed, but still. Peggy hadn't been cold for more than about 2 days!

It felt really forced. I'd rather he gets together with Black Widow. They had a better relationship develop during Winter Soldier, and there were even some seeds planted in this film. And they also make a WAAAAY better couple than she and Banner do.

But theirs is a long-time romance from the comics ...

Burn wrote:But theirs is a long-time romance from the comics ...

Whose romance are you referring to?

Nemesis Maximo wrote:

Burn wrote:But theirs is a long-time romance from the comics ...

Whose romance are you referring to?

Ditto^

Though I suspect he meant captain America and his love life.

Though why does he have to get with black widow? They can be good friends without getting it on or having that tension like black widow and hawkeye.

As for her and hulk that one was a bit out of left field but I was fine with it though after seeing Ross again...Anyone up for a red hulk movie

ZeroWolf wrote:Though why does he have to get with black widow? They can be good friends without getting it on or having that tension like black widow and hawkeye.

There was tension with Hawkeye? I never noticed. I thought Hawkeye was happily married.

As for her and hulk that one was a bit out of left field but I was fine with it though after seeing Ross again...Anyone up for a red hulk movie

Marvel has yet to have an outright failure, though I must admit the Hulk movies are the weakest of the franchise so far, box office-wise, anyway. Probably story-wise as well, but that's a matter of opinion. So given that, I think a red Hulk movie is not out of the question, but I doubt it's a priority. Unless William Hurt is signed for multiple films, in which case, it just might happen.

fantastic film, loved Spidey & Black Panther, the airport scene was the best

"table for one....mr stank!"

Actually I meant the tension in the first avengers movie I never knew hawkeye was married till age of ultron

Shadowman wrote:

Rodimus Prime wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:there's no contradiction, there are different levels of "awareness", and remembering things after does not indicate the level of awareness at the time of the crime

Is this your opinion, or do you have medical data to back up your statement?

I'm a casual Trek fan, seen most of the movies, and some episodes of TOS, TNG and DS9, and the Voyager series.

then are you familiar with the even that turned picard into a borg?

No, I don't believe I ever saw that.

"Best of Both Worlds." Two-parter episode, and easily among the best the franchise has to offer.

& after that....watch First Contact.....then Regeneration episode of Star Trek Enterprise

Stuartmaximus wrote:

Shadowman wrote:

Rodimus Prime wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:there's no contradiction, there are different levels of "awareness", and remembering things after does not indicate the level of awareness at the time of the crime

Is this your opinion, or do you have medical data to back up your statement?

I'm a casual Trek fan, seen most of the movies, and some episodes of TOS, TNG and DS9, and the Voyager series.

then are you familiar with the even that turned picard into a borg?

No, I don't believe I ever saw that.

"Best of Both Worlds." Two-parter episode, and easily among the best the franchise has to offer.

& after that....watch First Contact.....then Regeneration episode of Star Trek Enterprise

I agree with all that but the last part. Enterprise needs needs to be shoved into a little box labeled alternative universe and pushed into a corner. There's plenty of other good borg eps out there without resorting to that.

Anyways...