The Energon Pub

Nekoman wrote:So here is a question. How would you feel if they released a seeker repaint in gray as a homage towards Cybertron Thundercracker?

As long as I get my blue MP Thundercracker, I'm gonna be happy, but in principle, I'd hate it.

Classics is G1 based, and Cybertron Thundercracker is not G1 Thundercracker.
G1 Thundercracker had a very distinct personality compared to later versions.

Lets not forget that although you refer to TC as a SS repaint, during G1 all 3 seekers got a simultaneous release. It wasn't Starscream and two repaints, it was 3 identical founding figures whose colours defined them visually.

His colour is as important to him as G1 Starscream's, Skywarp's or any of the others.

Seibertron wrote:I know I will never be able to convince those of you who were unable to receive those figures of my view and I know that I'm not going to be convinced the other way around either.

I don't like how the suggestion or perhaps your belief is that the side a person takes depends on their ownership of the figures.

As I said, I do own Alpha Trion (although I called him Vector Prime) as he was the only figure I like, but feel the exact same way about him as the ones I don't own.

Seibertron wrote:Yeah, I wasn't happy initially about paying a shitload of money for exclusives of figures that I originally thought should have been released at retail. But I did, just like all of the other people who invested in that set so now I find myself on the other side of the fence because I'd personally like to see my investment protected. I don't think there's anything wrong with.

And that, imo, is the problem.

Had the seekers been released at retail, you'd appreciate them for them.
When they got a Henkei release, we'd have been as interested in how they're painted, chromed etc as we have been about the others.

But because you paid a lot of money, they become an "investment" and that takes over all else.

Seibertron wrote:otherwise what the heck's the point of buying exclusives?

I paid a collector's price for Alpha Trion ($80), and what was the point?
I bought him for the same reason I bought any of my figures, SOLELY for the love of the figure/character.

I would love to see how a Japanese Alpha Trion would be painted and would probably rush out and buy it.
My passion for the figure remains what it is, and ISN'T overridden by greed.

By contrast, some of you are more concerned about the value as collectibles to the point you'd happily miss out on potentially awesome repaints to safeguard it.
You'd have the rest of us miss out on them too.

We get less figures (in terms of asian repaints), just so a few of you can feel you got your money's worth.
Less figures are sold and less fans get to buy and enjoy them so a few of you can feel you got your money's worth.

It's greed and elitism, pure and simple.

If people want to buy for that reason, that's fine, but don't claim that you have to take that side because of all you've spent as I've spent much over the years on exclusives and still don't take that side.

As I mentioned multiple times, theoretical Henkei figures WOULD BE different to the Botcon versions.
You yourself know that. Your comparison pics show that with the current batch.

That'd mean we could have exclusives and mass release with both sides happy.
It works elsewhere and could here.
That we don't is because some of you CHOOSE to make Hasbro know you'd accept nothing but the extreme we have now.
And it's going to backfire, as sooner or later, someone will take advantage of that and produce KOs.

Unlike potential Henkei, they won't be easily distinguishable and the value of your set WILL suffer.

And collectors will only have their own greed to blame.

Lycantendencies wrote:As I mentioned multiple times, theoretical Henkei figures WOULD BE different to the Botcon versions.

this has been my point before. THIS IS POSSIBLE (meaning it could be done, but at the discretion of Takara Tomy). this is what we mean by Takara releasing the rest of the seekers but NOT in BotCon-style deco.

but i guess some of the guys take it that we mean we want it to be released exactly like the seekers in BotCon 07.

Henkei seekers + different apps != BOTCON seekers. so the BotCon set stays the same, while Takara could make a profit in releasing the Henkei versions of the seekers to mass market. heck, they could even make it eHobby exclusive for all i care.

it's a foolish hope, but it's hope nonetheless.

by the way, who owns the copyright to the names of the seekers, Hasbro/TakaraTomy or FunPub?

Lycantendencies wrote:
We get less figures (in terms of asian repaints), just so a few of you can feel you got your money's worth.
Less figures are sold and less fans get to buy and enjoy them so a few of you can feel you got your money's worth.

It's greed and elitism, pure and simple.

If people want to buy for that reason, that's fine, but don't claim that you have to take that side because of all you've spent as I've spent much over the years on exclusives and still don't take that side.

As I mentioned multiple times, theoretical Henkei figures WOULD BE different to the Botcon versions.
You yourself know that. Your comparison pics show that with the current batch.

That'd mean we could have exclusives and mass release with both sides happy.
It works elsewhere and could here.
That we don't is because some of you CHOOSE to make Hasbro know you'd accept nothing but the extreme we have now.
And it's going to backfire, as sooner or later, someone will take advantage of that and produce KOs.

Unlike potential Henkei, they won't be easily distinguishable and the value of your set WILL suffer.

And collectors will only have their own greed to blame.

What do you mean you get less figures?!?!?!? How many people on here buy EVERY SINGLE FIGURE Habsro releases at retail? Probably less than 25%! The greed is on those people who demand all the figures to be release and then decide not to buy them. How many times do people say "Meh, that's just a repaint and I have the original"? I see it like 80% of the time in posts. The only greed going on here is that of the people who are mad they didn't get the BotCon seekers. It's pretty much given that Hasbro did not plan on releasing them and gave the rights to FunPub. So stop if-ing that if Hasbro had released them people would have flocked to the stores in the millions and bought 6 of the same figure in different colors. Hasbro is better than ANY OF US at determining what will and what won't sell, and they decided 6 of the same figures wouldn't, so they at least gave us 3. Personally, I prefer Thundercracker over any seeker, but I was happy just getting a Classic version of a seeker mold, I never expected all of the seekers, and I really didn't care if we never got them. To me, BotCon releasing them was a bonus, but I was ging no matter what and they could have stuck 5 glow in the dark Optimus Minors in the box and I would have bought it.

And seriously, I here people saying, Thundercracker is an important CHARACTER, so what would they say if he was released in cartoon accurate colors, but in JetFire's mold?

Tekka wrote:Getting off the subject of Thundercracker completely. It's just as likely they may decide to do Sunstorm instead.

I made both myself

Tekka wrote: Maybe even create another new Seeker like they did with him. Maybe using the Green one, or one of the lilac coloured Seekers.

I did that with some G1 molds

GetterDragun wrote:And seriously, I here people saying, Thundercracker is an important CHARACTER, so what would they say if he was released in cartoon accurate colors, but in JetFire's mold?

I'd buy it. I love the Jetfire mold. I wish they'ld release a Roy Focker repaint of him. Though Harmony Gold would probably cry foul. And Thundercracker would be kind of like Max's colors.

I like those Seeker repaints, sto_vo_kor_2000. I'd definately buy those if Takara made them in Henkei. And here's a thought. What if Takara release Sunstorm using the Starscream mold ofcourse, but the other 2 were remolded in the shape of Dirge and Thrust? The green one using Thrusts mold and the lilac one using Dirges. It would at least give fans the fodder they would need to repaint them themselves. And they could put them in a 3-pack. People would probably buy at least 2 sets. 1 to repaint and 1 to keep. I think it's a good idea. It doesn't step on the toes of Hasbro or FunPub. There still wouldn't be any official Henkai TC, Thrust, or Dirge, but would still give fans the basis to make their own. And it would finally give us official figures for all 3 of the "Rainmakers" from Divide and Conquer. Although, in the show they all seemed to used the original Starscream mold.

UltraPrimal wrote:

GetterDragun wrote:And seriously, I here people saying, Thundercracker is an important CHARACTER, so what would they say if he was released in cartoon accurate colors, but in JetFire's mold?

I'd buy it. I love the Jetfire mold. I wish they'ld release a Roy Focker repaint of him. Though Harmony Gold would probably cry foul. And Thundercracker would be kind of like Max's colors.

that's not a bad idea at all. Max Jenius is my fave character from Macross (aside from Ichijyo and Roy). a Jetfire mold in that coloration would make for a great looking repaint.

Lycantendencies wrote:It's greed and elitism, pure and simple.

I guess because I bought some exclusive figures for a lot of money then I'd like those figures to remain as exclusive as possible. There's nothing wrong with that and I don't need to sit here and be called greedy and an elitist because I bought a figure for a lot of money that I was told was an exclusive and that I'd like those figures to stay that way. I wouldn't have bought it as a BotCon exclusive had I known it would be released as a retail figure either in the US or in Japan.

I'm sorry you guys are upset that you didn't get these figures. I understand where you are coming from. I guess I just wish some of you'd understand where we were coming from for those of us that invested in that set. There's no need to get nasty about this. We should all respect each other's opinions without the name calling. I'm all up for a debate and discussion about it, let's just not be jerks. Sound fair?

Staff members ... please make sure you guys are doing your part to keep this topic civil. Regular members, I expect the same from you guys as well. Thank you for your cooperation.

Some of my random thoughts on the issue:

Hasbro should have just made the three seekers in the main line. I could have done without the coneheads or picked them up as Botcon exclusives.


No amount of insulting others here is going to change the situation. The only thing it will do is lead to a few hot-heads who take the discussion down the road of hostility. This is too bad, because controversial topics make for interesting discussions. Locked threads don't.


Generalizations should be avoided at all times. I'm not an elitist snob because I have a few toys that someone else does not have. I can't help but take a little offense when fellow members throw those broad comments out there. You don't know me or anyone here well enough to say such things (nor is it right to do so on a public forum).


Some Transformers (or any collectables) are investments whether we want them to be or not. If I bought an exclusive <insert whatever> at a premium price, and then the company made more and flooded the market, I'd be unhappy. I like money and things of value. I like Transformers too. Put them together and woo hoo! I'm a happy guy.


TakaraTomy may or may not make something that resembles a Botcon seeker. One thing I have learned is to not discount any possibility. I say this thinking of the Sky Lynx reissue on my desk and all those Omega Supreme figures probably being mass-manufactured about now. I still seriously doubt they'd put out the exact likeness of the Botcon seekers, but in this hobby you just can't be 100% about anything.


Fun Publications made what could have been regular repaints into something special. First, they exist. Second, although to the unknowing they blend in with every other figure on the shelf, I know that three of those jets are a tad more special than the others.


I genuinely feel sorry for those who want, but don't have Thundercracker, Thrust, and Dirge. They are missing out.

I want classics Jetfire. From Seekers I love Jetfire , Thundercracker and starscream .
Who is Sunstorm ? Where can buy it ?

Yeah the pint made is the possibility whether TakaraTomy can do it legally, and that's where people should pay attention to.

Everything is about money, and to say becuase you paid $xxx amount of dollars for a figure, then get upset when it gets released to mass reatil for $XX will hurt you yeah, but that's the luck of the draw.

Since Henkei really isn't japanese for classisc, the possibility can exist. If you got the three seekers and think that somehow some way there wasn't going to be a mass retail of at least one in a repaint form, then that's more wishful thinking than those who want them released at mass retail.

In truth, We in the US, thanks to Hasbro, got the shaft on the seekers.
I'm not buying Hasbro's excuse about it one bit. Takaratomy may not be able to get the molds for Dirge and Thrust, but Thundercraker, yes.

And if they appy the different paint job like they did for Starscream, then it is not a BotCon seeker, but a Henkei version seeker.

Let's face it, companies are not dumb, money will be made if they do so, it will only hurt becuase of the high dollar price tag put on it.

The same thing happenes everyday, with any product, exclusive or not.

bvzxa wrote:Yeah the pint made is the possibility whether TakaraTomy can do it legally, and that's where people should pay attention to.

And unless someone knows for certain what licensing arrangements there are between Hasbro and TT and Fun Publications then we can simply sit here debating back and forth about whether they will or they won't.

Seibertron wrote:

Lycantendencies wrote:It's greed and elitism, pure and simple.

I guess because I bought some exclusive figures for a lot of money then I'd like those figures to remain as exclusive as possible. There's nothing wrong with that and I don't need to sit here and be called greedy and an elitist because I bought a figure for a lot of money that I was told was an exclusive and that I'd like those figures to stay that way. I wouldn't have bought it as a BotCon exclusive had I known it would be released as a retail figure either in the US or in Japan.


This has been an interesting and rather civil debate. Both sides have legitimate points and hopefully everyone can respect that.

In terms of the "exclusive" nature of the Botcon set, unless you're an contract attorney and have seen the actual Fun Publication contract it's all speculation. That said, I will "speculate" . If anyone here is a lawyer, you know how detailed and exacting the wordings on those contracts are (pages after pages of legal wordings). In addition, rarely do these "small" contracts include international restrictions. As to the nature of the Fun Publication contract, my guess (again I repeat GUESS) is the legal wording is something to the effect of exclusive distribution for exact paint scheme and exact art design in the US rather than exclusive character rights. This is a common practice in licensing. Look at Batman and Superman licencing. DC Comics licensed these characters to muliple companies with specific "exclusive" restrictions on size, design, articulation, and material used. My guess is if Takara wants to make a Thundercracker, there's no legal obstacle to stop them. Will they respect Hasbro's contract or the "intent" of the contract, most likely. However if the demand is there, they will make the figures.

Would Botcon seekers owners be upset if Takara redeco Thundercracker with a more animated sky blue color scheme? the answer should be interesting. This option protects the "exclusive" nature of the Botcon while providing those that missed the boat an opportunity, unless it is your contention that you don't want anyone else to own a Classic Thundercracker. That opens up a bigger debate about elitism so I won't go there.

What will be interesting is whether or not KO seekers are on their way. We've already seen a pretty good KO of the Classics Starscream mold so it shouldn't be too hard to make Thundercracker or even the Botcon inaccurate Dirge. How would you feel about this?

All that said, I still look at these things as "toys" that brings me back to a carefree time in my life. I play with them and transform them, something that a doctor shouldn't do. I'm planning on making a custom Thundercracker and never bought the Botcon seekers purely out of principles. I would like to see Thundercracker released by Takara so those that either rejoined this hobby late or can't paint, can enjoy a character they once loved as a kid.

Lycantendencies wrote:As I mentioned multiple times, theoretical Henkei figures WOULD BE different to the Botcon versions.
You yourself know that. Your comparison pics show that with the current batch.

i think that this is a big point!

yes we want a 'classics' ThunderCracker, we never said we wanted one to look like the Botcon '07 ThunderCracker!


F.Y.I. nice sunstorm you've got there Sto_vo_kor!

I 100% agree with Lapse of Reason. Well stated comments that express my feelings perfectly.

ThunderThruster wrote:

Lycantendencies wrote:As I mentioned multiple times, theoretical Henkei figures WOULD BE different to the Botcon versions.
You yourself know that. Your comparison pics show that with the current batch.

i think that this is a big point!

yes we want a 'classics' ThunderCracker, we never said we wanted one to look like the Botcon '07 ThunderCracker!


F.Y.I. nice sunstorm you've got there Sto_vo_kor!

Your guys point about a Henkei seeker versus a Classics seeker doesn't work with the scenario of exclusives either. Henkei Starscream isn't different enough from Classics Starscream to use that as an example.

Ugh. This conversation is pointless. We're all just spinning our tires trying to argue our own individual points based on whether or not we seem to have ownership of these figures. I will keep an eye on this thread to make sure that it stays civil. I request that all of you maintain this conversation at a civil level. Thanks.

Man this is about as bad as the scalper debate.

The answer is plain and simple, but I always get the thread locked if I say it.

I really think this just shows how individual this hobby can be.

Some people consider henkei starscream very different than Classics Starscream and want both.
Some people consider them the same figure, but would still buy both
Some people consider them the same figure, and only buy one.

Ultimately it doesn't matter what we think, because Takara and Hasbro will do whatever they think is in their best interest. Hopefully Hasbro stays true to their word, doesn't release something they promised that they wouldn't, and can convince TakaraTomy to respect their wishes.

The fact that exclusive items have been released in opposing regions as regular releases in the past does not bode well for the seekers staying exclusive. We must all just hold our breath.

If anyone still feels upset over this, then sign on and play me in Smash Brawl.

It won't make you feel anybetter about the seekers, actually, it won't make you feel better about Brawl either.

But hell, I'll be amused.

Lycantendencies wrote:Classics is G1 based, and Cybertron Thundercracker is not G1 Thundercracker.

Oh, is it? Then tell me who Heavy Load is an update of?

Lets not forget that although you refer to TC as a SS repaint, during G1 all 3 seekers got a simultaneous release. It wasn't Starscream and two repaints, it was 3 identical founding figures whose colours defined them visually.

But in classics that’s all he is, a SS repaint.

Starscream wrote:Man this is about as bad as the scalper debate.

Scalper legions, yea, they go to Botcon too.

Nekoman wrote:

Lycantendencies wrote:Classics is G1 based, and Cybertron Thundercracker is not G1 Thundercracker.

Oh, is it? Then tell me who Heavy Load is an update of?

Classics is not a line. Check your packaging - nowhere does it say "Classics". It is just a fan dubbed term. The remaining "Classics", as well as Heavy Load, are under the Universe banner. Universe can contain any mix of figures from any TF line, or include repaints.

The character Heavy Load was a member of the Autobot build team in RID, and then the minicon that went with Menasor in Cybertron. It seems that this latest incarnation is once again not related to the previous namesakes.

Universe is an "anything goes" sort of line. Just because it is in the revamped Universe line does not mean it is an update of a classic G1 figure. I know "Classics" figures will continue under Universe, but don't be surprised to see a lot of other repaints make their way into the Universe line too.

The definitely look better. and as far as i know, they're better quality.

BTW, henkei sounds a bit like hentai. ooops?

Lapse Of Reason wrote:

Nekoman wrote:

Lycantendencies wrote:Classics is G1 based, and Cybertron Thundercracker is not G1 Thundercracker.

Oh, is it? Then tell me who Heavy Load is an update of?

Classics is not a line. Check your packaging - nowhere does it say "Classics". It is just a fan dubbed term. The remaining "Classics", as well as Heavy Load, are under the Universe banner. Universe can contain any mix of figures from any TF line, or include repaints.

Actually, it is officially referred to by Hasbro as "Classics" because that was the name they coined for it. It's not on the packaging because Hasbro's marketing team thought it would sell better at a retail level sans "Classics" in the name of the series. Hasbro refers to it as Transformers Classics in their press release from May 26th, 2006:

http://www.hasbro.com/transformers/defa ... A6033C14A1

TakaraTomy also refers to it as "Classics" on the bottom of their packaging.

Seibertron -

I stand corrected. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Lapse Of Reason wrote:Some of my random thoughts on the issue:

Hasbro should have just made the three seekers in the main line. I could have done without the coneheads or picked them up as Botcon exclusives.


No amount of insulting others here is going to change the situation. The only thing it will do is lead to a few hot-heads who take the discussion down the road of hostility. This is too bad, because controversial topics make for interesting discussions. Locked threads don't.


Generalizations should be avoided at all times. I'm not an elitist snob because I have a few toys that someone else does not have. I can't help but take a little offense when fellow members throw those broad comments out there. You don't know me or anyone here well enough to say such things (nor is it right to do so on a public forum).


Some Transformers (or any collectables) are investments whether we want them to be or not. If I bought an exclusive <insert whatever> at a premium price, and then the company made more and flooded the market, I'd be unhappy. I like money and things of value. I like Transformers too. Put them together and woo hoo! I'm a happy guy.


TakaraTomy may or may not make something that resembles a Botcon seeker. One thing I have learned is to not discount any possibility. I say this thinking of the Sky Lynx reissue on my desk and all those Omega Supreme figures probably being mass-manufactured about now. I still seriously doubt they'd put out the exact likeness of the Botcon seekers, but in this hobby you just can't be 100% about anything.


Fun Publications made what could have been regular repaints into something special. First, they exist. Second, although to the unknowing they blend in with every other figure on the shelf, I know that three of those jets are a tad more special than the others.


I genuinely feel sorry for those who want, but don't have Thundercracker, Thrust, and Dirge. They are missing out.

Dude, excellent points much like Ryan.

This discussion has had alot of focus on some people feeling that the seekers being Botcon exclusives was unfair. But there is a small fact that has been glossed over above the unfairness of the seeker exclusivity. I recall more times than I can count about how many people were upset about this to begin with and felt that since they should've been released at mass retail and that they weren't worth the price Master Collector was asking for the set.

As a result of that feeling alot of collectors intentionally didn't buy the Botcon set. Which means that there are some people that chose to put themselves in the position of not having all of the seekers when there was marginal opportunity to get all of them. To purposefully make that decision to not get the set and then be so upset that you couldn't buy them seems kind of hypocritical.

However, if you simply could not afford to come up with the money for the set between when they were announced and when they sold out then I think everyone can respect anyone's disappointment and frustration for not being able to get the remaining seekers. Being in that position does truly suck big time!!

Value can be determined from many different perspectives. Personal value, market value, collector value and so on. Bottom line here is that the people who bought the Botcon set (and I'm sure primarily for the remaining seekers) felt that having those figures was worth the price Master Collector was charging for the set and chose to buy it so that they could have their Classiscs seeker collection complete. This was my reason for working tons of overtime to save the money and purchase the set. My question to the fandom is how does making that choice make anyone and elitist snob?

The Classics seekers are very cool and my heart totally goes out to every collector that did not have the means to make the choice to buy the seekers or were victims of the limited run on the figures and had to deal with the set being sold out. But to be angry towards other collectors for being able to get the set just isn't cool.

However, fans that did miss out either by choice or by no fault of their own do have the right to be pissed as all hell at Hasbro. The classics line was devised as a filler line between Cybertron & the movie line. But Hasbro also admitted that it was geared towards lomg-time collectors and fans as well. So it is only natural for us as a fandom to be upset that the line was squashed when there were figures that we so desperately wanted to see made available.

But Ryan and others have made great points about the simple fact that there were business reasons behind how the Classics line was handled and why various decisions were made including the remaining seekers ending up as Botcon exclusives. The key thing to remember here is that we may not like the decision that Hasbro made about the remaining seekers but we do have to accept the decision that was made. I say that because it is already said and been done for almost a year now.

Does this mean people aren't allowed to be hopeful that things could change? Certainly not. Nothing wrong with hoping, praying and wishing. However, it is always good to keep a certain amount of reality in mind when you do spin your wheels holding out hope for that fateful Classics/Henkei Thundercracker.

Nekoman wrote:

Lycantendencies wrote:Classics is G1 based, and Cybertron Thundercracker is not G1 Thundercracker.

Oh, is it? Then tell me who Heavy Load is an update of?

Not to sound rude but whats the point of the question????The new Universe Line may have some classics in ti but its not entirrly a Classic line.Hasbro can and most likely will be throwing in figures that just dont fit the G1 line.

And besides the Universe Heavy Load could be an update of any number of G1 characters with a name change.

I'm not saying that he is but there were a few characters from G1 with that alt mode.

Seibertron wrote:

Lapse Of Reason wrote:Classics is not a line. Check your packaging - nowhere does it say "Classics". It is just a fan dubbed term. The remaining "Classics", as well as Heavy Load, are under the Universe banner. Universe can contain any mix of figures from any TF line, or include repaints.

Actually, it is officially referred to by Hasbro as "Classics" because that was the name they coined for it. It's not on the packaging because Hasbro's marketing team thought it would sell better at a retail level sans "Classics" in the name of the series. Hasbro refers to it as Transformers Classics in their press release from May 26th, 2006:

http://www.hasbro.com/transformers/defa ... A6033C14A1

TakaraTomy also refers to it as "Classics" on the bottom of their packaging.

But its my understanding that the New line of Classics will be released under the "Universe" banner with no mention on the boxes of the Classic Line or the words anywhere on it.

Yes the first line from last year+ was called "Classic" as a toyline but the new figures will be part of the "Universe" banner and with that comes the possibility that Hasbro will throw in a few figure repaints from other lines.