The Energon Pub

necare wrote:I do analysis for Hasbro and can tell you...

I...think I need a lolcat.




What?...

Like you expect better of me...

The only problem I have with the whole business side of things is that Henkei is primarily for the Japanese market, Botcon is an American convention. It's extremely expensive/difficult for those outside the states (and, I imagine, those in different states) to attend one and the international ordering prices are huge.

So are TakaraTomy really not going to release a major/popular character to their target audience because Hasbro 'got there first' and slapped an exclusive label on it?

That just seems unfair.

Just my opinion.

This, of course, depends on whether TC is a popular character in Japan...if not that blows all sorts of holes in my theory...

Slightly off-topic how limited was the 2007 set?

Bobimus_Prime wrote:Slightly off-topic how limited was the 2007 set?

You could safely estimate that there are approximately 1,400-1,500 sets out there.

I think it was 1,100 box sets and 400 bag sets. That could be wrong by 100 or so. (They never really give consistant numbers themselves.

necare wrote:The speculation that these figures will NEVER come out in a Classics version line is ridiculous. If the bottom line is not met for this year's budget, you can bet that we will MOST DEFINITELY see the seekers coming out.

Wait! Ssshhh... Can you hear that? It's the sound of Ryan's head hitting a sheet of dry rock, somewhere in the Midwest...

Just to cover my ass later down the road with this debate, I wouldn't be shocked to see Thrust, Dirge and Thundercracker released as Wonderfest exclusives or something comparably limited to their release as BotCon exclusives. I could see the agreement between Hasbro, TakaraTomy and Master Collector as being that exclusives must remain as exclusives but not necessarily limited to a certain market which would include the potential of them being released as very limited exclusives in the Japanese market (runs of a 1,000 or so). I don't think that would impact the value of those figures in the secondary market for us collectors who do have a concern about things like that.

Seibertron wrote:You'll most likely see Skywarp and Ramjet ... but no Thundercracker, Thrust and Dirge. To do that would be a major stab in the back to fans.

How?

How would a blue seeker that would be DIFFERENT to the Botcon Thundercracker stabbing fans in their back?

How would differently painted version of the other molds be a stab in the back?


And by fans I mean the fans, the thousands of people all over the western world who wanted these figures but couldn't because of limited stock, not the elite few.

I own just ONE of the Botcon figures, Vector Prime.

If Takara released a variant take with different paint apps and chrome, I wouldn't feel stabbed in the back.

If I did however, it would only balance out the THOUSANDS OF FANS who were slapped in the face by not being given the ability to own such a great figure.

Not everyone who owns the Botcon sets is an elitist snob, but when they talk about the "fans" being screwed over by potential Japanese variants, when the majority of the "fans" would benefit from this, it comes across as elitist.

You may as well sit among a group of people who couldn't afford a car and tell them that we're all stabbed in the back now your high end sportscar has been moddified and sold at a price they can afford.
It's transparent.

Seibertron wrote:It's just a business decision. Think of it from the perspective of the companies involved with selling Transformers toys. I know it sucks ... but you'll eventually understand why things are the way that they are if you consider it from THEIR perspective instead of YOURS.

I am not an employee of Hasbro, so why should I consider it from their perspective?

I am not an idiot, I KNOW about their perspective, but I am a consumer, and as such, my concern is what we are or aren't able to buy.
Simply put, they don't care if some people can't buy a figure, we don't care why they choose not to sell it

Also, as I mentioned elsehwere, other companies changed exlcusives into regular retail versions.
One such company was the one I mentioned already, Kotobukiya.
Doing so hasn't hamred them. In fact, they're doing incredibly well.
And as many other companies have done the same it suggests that doing so doesn't result in "far reaching ramifications", it pleases the masses, not the few, and results in more sales.

Unless of course they're all doing it as some attempt and mass corprorate suicide.

Seibertron wrote:I don't think that would impact the value of those figures in the secondary market for us collectors who do have a concern about things like that.

The ltd Final Fantasy Kotobukiya statues are still high in value despite the indentical retail versions as they have a numbered card.
Kotobukiya's Japanese Sera-Chan is still more valuable than the identical International version and the variant SDCC version because of the box.

You're hugely over-estimating the effect that retail versions and variants have on original packaged ltd items.

I see that this conversation is most likely one without end. I know I will never be able to convince those of you who were unable to receive those figures of my view and I know that I'm not going to be convinced the other way around either. It's a stalemate conversation. I wish there was a solution that would make everyone happy, but I don't think there is in this particular case. I've made the same argument about the Classics Seekers since this was announced. Yeah, I wasn't happy initially about paying a shitload of money for exclusives of figures that I originally thought should have been released at retail. But I did, just like all of the other people who invested in that set so now I find myself on the other side of the fence because I'd personally like to see my investment protected. I don't think there's anything wrong with. Yes, I wish those figures had been released at retail originally. They weren't so this is how it is unfortunately.

I just absolutely love how people are arguing this point, when WELL KNOWN and WELL INFORMED individuals are saying otherwise. For PETES SAKE EVEN SEIBERTRON POSTED on the subject MORE THAN ONCE, I dont think Ive ever seen that before.


Get a dictionary, learn what the friggin' term exclusive means already. And afterall that, if you still wanna argue the point, go somewhere else. Thank you.

How about locking the thread so no one else responds to it.

Dead Prime wrote:How about locking the thread so no one else responds to it.

Because there is no reason to lock it. It has been civil, arguments have been made and thought through and responded to reasonably. That's why the forums are here.

And why lock it, only to see the 4th such thread pop up this very week alone.

I think so far so good, and let the conversation continue, if people have anything to add. I like seeing the passionate, yet civil, points of view!

i will still remain opptimistic, and have hope that TakaraTomy will find some method of releasing a classics ThunderCracker!

ThunderThruster wrote:i will still remain opptimistic, and have hope that TakaraTomy will find some method of releasing a classics ThunderCracker!

Yes ,they will!

Autobot Jazz Prime wrote:

ThunderThruster wrote:i will still remain opptimistic, and have hope that TakaraTomy will find some method of releasing a classics ThunderCracker!

Yes ,they will!

Your right, just like all the other previous Botcon exclusive items that have been released.

First Gen wrote:

Autobot Jazz Prime wrote:

ThunderThruster wrote:i will still remain opptimistic, and have hope that TakaraTomy will find some method of releasing a classics ThunderCracker!

Yes ,they will!

Your right, just like all the other previous Botcon exclusive items that have been released.

you cant stop me from having hope! the chances of winning the lottery are in the millions, but people still have hope about winning it, just like the chances of this happening are slim, isnt gonna stop me from having hope. yeah its a slim chance, but its still a chance!

First Gen wrote:I just absolutely love how people are arguing this point, when WELL KNOWN and WELL INFORMED individuals are saying otherwise. For PETES SAKE EVEN SEIBERTRON POSTED on the subject MORE THAN ONCE, I dont think Ive ever seen that before.


Get a dictionary, learn what the friggin' term exclusive means already. And afterall that, if you still wanna argue the point, go somewhere else. Thank you.

Playing devil's advocate here ... I don't know everything there is to know about this hobby. I think I'm a pretty excellent authority on the matter of the Transformers brand but at the end of the day, I'm just a fan like all of you who might have a few more connections because of Seibertron.com.

I want this topic to be left open. This is a DISCUSSION board. It's OK to have debates and it's OK to have heated debates. Let's just stay civil and respect each other's opinions.

I know that if the roles were reversed and I didn't have this set, I'd be arguing the other side of this situation and would probably think that those people arguing that these should remain as exclusives were crazy and being unfair. I just have a lot of money invested in the BotCon 2007 exclusives and would like to see these companies keep their word about exclusives and would like to protect my investment ... otherwise what the heck's the point of buying exclusives?

I see both sides of the story. I'm just more invested in one side of the argument and not the other and therefore I'm biased because of the ~$500 I put into that set. I'm not wrong and you're not wrong. I don't think those of you who really want to see these figures are wrong either. I'm just trying to share some of my knowledge about how these exclusives work for those of you who are "hopelessly" (at least in my opinion considering the facts that I know) waiting for these to be released at retail.

its only hopeless when you know that its DEFINATLY not going to happen!

yes i've got more lives than a cat!

TFBuyer wrote:

necare wrote:The speculation that these figures will NEVER come out in a Classics version line is ridiculous. If the bottom line is not met for this year's budget, you can bet that we will MOST DEFINITELY see the seekers coming out.

Wait! Ssshhh... Can you hear that? It's the sound of Ryan's head hitting a sheet of dry rock, somewhere in the Midwest...

Dude, that is hysterical because I had the same vision in my head too!

Seriously, I must agree with Ryan on every point he made. So for the sake of moving the conversation forward I won't repeat him. Hasbro made multiple business decision that has created the very situation that we are discussing in this endless circle. The Botcon seekers are Botcon exclusives and because of Hasbro's already written and signed contract with Master Collector that will likely not change.

It has been clearly established that there are a great many of people who are PISSED about that. Even though I ponied up the money for the Games of Deception set I can totally respect how hugely dissappointed people were about that set being the choice for the exclusive Botcon set. Hell, I was on my knees praying to every god I could think of that Hasbro would release all six seekers to retail before that set was announced. But alas it just didn't work out that way.

Would I have rather paid regular retail prices for those figures? You bet your butt I would have preferred that! But we just weren't that lucky. I have an innocent question though. Would anyone who couldn't get the set feel any less pissed if you could be convinced that those of us who own the set don't feel any more special than the next fan but infact feel very lucky and fortunate to have been able to get the set in the first place? I can't speak for anyone else but I can assure everyone that I certainly don't feel anymore special than the next fan just because I've got five figures that many other people don't have.

As for Henkei? I say keep praying for Thundercracker. No one can get pissed about people praying and hoping!

I should argue the secondary release bit just for funsies.

Counterpunch wrote:I should argue the secondary release bit just for funsies.

Dude, World War 3!!! DON'T DO IT! NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ultra Prime wrote:

Counterpunch wrote:I should argue the secondary release bit just for funsies.

Dude, World War 3!!! DON'T DO IT! NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is totally a Punch / Counterpunch topic. Where's that article Mike?

Lycantendencies wrote:not the elite few.

Sweet, now I can use this again.

There definetly should be a Punch/Counterpunch file on the seekers



I'd like to say that I have the Botcon seekers a few rooms away from me. But I still think they should be released at retail.


Why are the few any more deserving than the many?

Actually I just thought about it, Tak may be able to release Hentkei versions.
All they would have to do is change the Thundercracker paintapps a bit, give Dirge wings like he had in G1 and put Thrusts wings on his legs, like in G1.
but it's unlikely to happen.

Okay, I’m just going to make two simple questions and then answer them, so that some of you can get what the deal is.

The cries of countless fans wrote:Why do people not want the sets to be released at retail when it would benefit most of us?

I think its safe to say no one wanted them to be exclusive, not even the people who bought the set. Now they were told it would be exclusive to Botcon and not be released at retail ever. So they saved up the cash to get them so they wouldn’t miss out. Lets say, what if TT released them, a LOT of people would be upset because they would NOT have bothered if they had known they were to be released later.

Basically, making them Botcon exclusives was a very dumb idea, but its been done and none of us can do anything about it. Sorry, u r SOL.

The cries of countless fans wrote:Is there any hope for getting Thundercracker at retail anyway?

Thundercracker? Heck, no. A seeker repaint in grey or some other color that could be passed off as Thundercracker? Possibly.

Lets say they released a Classics seeker repaint in Cybertron Thundercrackers colors and called it Divebomb or something like that. Officially it would not be Thundercracker and would not be accurate to the G1 character, but it would be enough to pass it off as Thundercracker in a collection.

Why do I think this is possible? Cause it would not be a homage to the G1 character and instead the Cybertron character and Blue is a very different color from gray. If they released a gray seeker I think every one would be happy with that because if it wasn’t blue or any shade of blue it would be different enough to not be a G1 accurate Thundercracker and if it was gray it could easily be passed off as Thundercracker.

Hasbro has even done something similar, there was Botcon Fallback (brown) and Target exclusive Crosshairs (beige) both colors are similar but not the same, so they could just make a new seeker and paint him gray, that would be fair enough.

So here is a question. How would you feel if they released a seeker repaint in gray as a homage towards Cybertron Thundercracker?

Mr. Seibertron has great points. And I wasn't thinking about Exclusives like I should have been.

So I cede to you, good sir.

But I will still hope for a Thundercracker, because I would love to complete my set. Be it Henkai or Classics. So long as it is at a reasonable price.

On a side topic, let's hope the HasbroToyShop doesn't meltdown they day they open up orders for Classics Nemesis Prime. I still hurt over not being able to grab Hot Rod.