The Energon Pub

Hello Tramp are you there?I have an other question for you?

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Hello Tramp are you there?I have an other question for you?

Did you read my EDIT?

Tramp wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Hello Tramp are you there?I have an other question for you?

Did you read my EDIT?

I read your edit....but thats not the same as saying you made a mistake.......You out right claimed that he didnt fade but he did.You also didnt reply to my other post about the Ultimate guide not applying to the Japanese Headmaster.And I have an other question for you..

P.S. to me this is still a great friendly debate so if you got the impression that I was fighting with you I'm sorry......My spelling and typing skills are pretty bad.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:You'll also have to admit that the Ultimate does not and CAN NOT apply to the Japanese universe's.They have completly different definations of the headmaster/targetmaster prosses and completly different historys for the same charters.

Actually, no they don't. According to MtMtE #8 the original plan for the headmaster rprocess was initially developed for it to be used on Micromaster robots to become the heads of larger bodies to save energy. In the US line, they adapted this for humanoids instead. In the Japanese continuties, they started with micromaster sized robots foirst, then went to humanoids. Page 32 of MtMtE #8 says—

The Headmaster technology began as a simple remote control-based system that was enhanced into a binary-bonding process by the Autobot scientist, Brainstorm and his humanoid partner, Arcana, on the latter's homeowrld of Nebulon [See Nebulon]. The basic premise of the technology allows a carbon-based life form to be reformatted with transforming properties that let them form the head of a Transformer. [b]it had originally been meant to combine with the Micromaster technology [See Micromasters], with the larger robot acting as its own small Headmaster to conserve energy.

This of course originated from the Japanese versions, and was addressed in the US comics.
They applied this original process in Armada with Overload, who had a minicon who became the head of the larger body, and in Energon with Omega Supreme. Both were Headmasters who had robot Headmaster partners, not humanoids. Yes, tyey have different histories for the different characters, because they are different continuities, but they are still part of the greater TF canon multiverse.

But, Tramp, MTMTE isn't the Ultimate Guide. The Ultimate Guide overwrites everything, remember?

Once again, Tramp:

You're also sidestepping any time I mention how he contradicted himself by saying the Marvel continuity cannot be retconned by the Ultimate Guide, yet he keeps saying it can, now that I beat his argument with the Marvel Comics, and I told him to go read issues 75-77 again, which he hasn't. You can't get much more of a troll than that.

Shirogoshi wrote:But, Tramp, MTMTE isn't the Ultimate Guide. The Ultimate Guide overwrites everything, remember?

Most of the information from the Ultimate Guide was based upon Dreamwave's material. Dreamwave's G1 comics, including War Within set the standard and was used by the Ultimate Gude as the difinitive G1 continuity, with Marvel's comics as an alternate reality. If you read the Ultimate Guide much of the TF history that is in there comes directly from the DW comics.

Shirogoshi wrote:Once again, Tramp:

You're also sidestepping any time I mention how he contradicted himself by saying the Marvel continuity cannot be retconned by the Ultimate Guide, yet he keeps saying it can, now that I beat his argument with the Marvel Comics, and I told him to go read issues 75-77 again, which he hasn't. You can't get much more of a troll than that.

Shrogoshi, I have read thoise books, and it still doesn't make Primus permanently dead in Marvel's comics. gods can't permanently die. There is no complete overwrite. The event still occurs. But Primus is not gone forever. That is the key factor you are ignoring.

Tramp wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:You'll also have to admit that the Ultimate does not and CAN NOT apply to the Japanese universe's.They have completly different definations of the headmaster/targetmaster prosses and completly different historys for the same charters.

Actually, no they don't. According to MtMtE #8 the original plan for the headmaster rprocess was initially developed for it to be used on Micromaster robots to become the heads of larger bodies to save energy. In the US line, they adapted this for humanoids instead. In the Japanese continuties, they started with micromaster sized robots foirst, then went to humanoids. Page 32 of MtMtE #8 says—

The Headmaster technology began as a simple remote control-based system that was enhanced into a binary-bonding process by the Autobot scientist, Brainstorm and his humanoid partner, Arcana, on the latter's homeowrld of Nebulon [See Nebulon]. The basic premise of the technology allows a carbon-based life form to be reformatted with transforming properties that let them form the head of a Transformer. [b]it had originally been meant to combine with the Micromaster technology [See Micromasters], with the larger robot acting as its own small Headmaster to conserve energy.

This of course originated from the Japanese versions, and was addressed in the US comics.
They applied this original process in Armada with Overload, who had a minicon who became the head of the larger body, and in Energon with Omega Supreme. Both were Headmasters who had robot Headmaster partners, not humanoids. Yes, tyey have different histories for the different characters, because they are different continuities, but they are still part of the greater TF canon multiverse.

I know all this....its not part of my debate....nor is it ion point.Remeer,when I asked you what continity the Japanese Toons fit? You answered that they fit in to the same one as the G1 toon continity.When I tryed to tell you that it was different you told me that I was wrong and that every thing you have ever read stated that they were in the same continity and that I was the only one that has ever pointed out any different.....and now your claim is that they ARE in different continuities.Witch one is it????

Dude you have to admit you made a mistake

Tramp wrote:

Shirogoshi wrote:Once again, Tramp:

You're also sidestepping any time I mention how he contradicted himself by saying the Marvel continuity cannot be retconned by the Ultimate Guide, yet he keeps saying it can, now that I beat his argument with the Marvel Comics, and I told him to go read issues 75-77 again, which he hasn't. You can't get much more of a troll than that.

Shrogoshi, I have read thoise books, and it still doesn't make Primus permanently dead in Marvel's comics. gods can't permanently die. There is no complete overwrite. The event still occurs. But Primus is not gone forever. That is the key factor you are ignoring.

CYBERTRON WOULDN'T HAVE STARTED BREAKING APART IF HE WASN'T DEAD! HE DID NOT GET REVIVED! God you're annoying!

Tramp wrote:

Shirogoshi wrote:Once again, Tramp:

You're also sidestepping any time I mention how he contradicted himself by saying the Marvel continuity cannot be retconned by the Ultimate Guide, yet he keeps saying it can, now that I beat his argument with the Marvel Comics, and I told him to go read issues 75-77 again, which he hasn't. You can't get much more of a troll than that.

Shrogoshi, I have read thoise books, and it still doesn't make Primus permanently dead in Marvel's comics. gods can't permanently die. There is no complete overwrite. The event still occurs. But Primus is not gone forever. That is the key factor you are ignoring.

CYBERTRON WOULDN'T HAVE STARTED BREAKING APART IF HE WASN'T DEAD! HE DID NOT GET REVIVED! God you're annoying! It wouldn't say he was dead if he wasn't dead! Seriously, you must've gotten beat up a LOT at school if you were this annoying in real life!

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Tramp wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:You'll also have to admit that the Ultimate does not and CAN NOT apply to the Japanese universe's.They have completly different definations of the headmaster/targetmaster prosses and completly different historys for the same charters.

Actually, no they don't. According to MtMtE #8 the original plan for the headmaster rprocess was initially developed for it to be used on Micromaster robots to become the heads of larger bodies to save energy. In the US line, they adapted this for humanoids instead. In the Japanese continuties, they started with micromaster sized robots foirst, then went to humanoids. Page 32 of MtMtE #8 says—

The Headmaster technology began as a simple remote control-based system that was enhanced into a binary-bonding process by the Autobot scientist, Brainstorm and his humanoid partner, Arcana, on the latter's homeowrld of Nebulon [See Nebulon]. The basic premise of the technology allows a carbon-based life form to be reformatted with transforming properties that let them form the head of a Transformer. [b]it had originally been meant to combine with the Micromaster technology [See Micromasters], with the larger robot acting as its own small Headmaster to conserve energy.

This of course originated from the Japanese versions, and was addressed in the US comics.
They applied this original process in Armada with Overload, who had a minicon who became the head of the larger body, and in Energon with Omega Supreme. Both were Headmasters who had robot Headmaster partners, not humanoids. Yes, tyey have different histories for the different characters, because they are different continuities, but they are still part of the greater TF canon multiverse.

I know all this....its not part of my debate....nor is it ion point.Remeer,when I asked you what continity the Japanese Toons fit? You answered that they fit in to the same one as the G1 toon continity.When I tryed to tell you that it was different you told me that I was wrong and that every thing you have ever read stated that they were in the same continity and that I was the only one that has ever pointed out any different.....and now your claim is that they ARE in different continuities.Witch one is it????

The Japanese cartoons were meant as part of the US cartoon continuity replacing Rebirth, and the three episode "Season three" completely. It was written after the US series went off the air, otherwise, they would have used the storyline the US established. It has no connection to the Dreamwave continuity or Marvel continuity. They are connected to the cartoon continuity as well as BW-BM.

Shirogoshi wrote:

Tramp wrote:

Shirogoshi wrote:Once again, Tramp:

You're also sidestepping any time I mention how he contradicted himself by saying the Marvel continuity cannot be retconned by the Ultimate Guide, yet he keeps saying it can, now that I beat his argument with the Marvel Comics, and I told him to go read issues 75-77 again, which he hasn't. You can't get much more of a troll than that.

Shrogoshi, I have read thoise books, and it still doesn't make Primus permanently dead in Marvel's comics. gods can't permanently die. There is no complete overwrite. The event still occurs. But Primus is not gone forever. That is the key factor you are ignoring.

CYBERTRON WOULDN'T HAVE STARTED BREAKING APART IF HE WASN'T DEAD! HE DID NOT GET REVIVED! God you're annoying! It wouldn't say he was dead if he wasn't dead! Seriously, you must've gotten beat up a LOT at school if you were this annoying in real life!

It didn't break apart. And. secondly, Unicron was also "dead" yet he still comes back in the future. You can't permanently kill Primus or Unicron. They are gods.

but in the Ultimate Guide season 3 of the cartoon has a lot more than 3 episodes. which is it?

oh yeah, and who says that Gods can't die permanently?

Tramp wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Tramp wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:You'll also have to admit that the Ultimate does not and CAN NOT apply to the Japanese universe's.They have completly different definations of the headmaster/targetmaster prosses and completly different historys for the same charters.

Actually, no they don't. According to MtMtE #8 the original plan for the headmaster rprocess was initially developed for it to be used on Micromaster robots to become the heads of larger bodies to save energy. In the US line, they adapted this for humanoids instead. In the Japanese continuties, they started with micromaster sized robots foirst, then went to humanoids. Page 32 of MtMtE #8 says—

The Headmaster technology began as a simple remote control-based system that was enhanced into a binary-bonding process by the Autobot scientist, Brainstorm and his humanoid partner, Arcana, on the latter's homeowrld of Nebulon [See Nebulon]. The basic premise of the technology allows a carbon-based life form to be reformatted with transforming properties that let them form the head of a Transformer. [b]it had originally been meant to combine with the Micromaster technology [See Micromasters], with the larger robot acting as its own small Headmaster to conserve energy.

This of course originated from the Japanese versions, and was addressed in the US comics.
They applied this original process in Armada with Overload, who had a minicon who became the head of the larger body, and in Energon with Omega Supreme. Both were Headmasters who had robot Headmaster partners, not humanoids. Yes, tyey have different histories for the different characters, because they are different continuities, but they are still part of the greater TF canon multiverse.

I know all this....its not part of my debate....nor is it ion point.Remeer,when I asked you what continity the Japanese Toons fit? You answered that they fit in to the same one as the G1 toon continity.When I tryed to tell you that it was different you told me that I was wrong and that every thing you have ever read stated that they were in the same continity and that I was the only one that has ever pointed out any different.....and now your claim is that they ARE in different continuities.Witch one is it????

The Japanese cartoons were meant as part of the US cartoon continuity replacing Rebirth, and the three episode "Season three" completely. It was written after the US series went off the air, otherwise, they would have used the storyline the US established. It has no connection to the Dreamwave continuity or Marvel continuity. They are connected to the cartoon continuity as well as BW-BM.

You mean season 4 rebirth was ment to be the begining of season 4 but the point I'm trying to make is if Beast wars/machines are part of the same universe as the US G1 toon then it cant be in the same universe as the Japanese Headmasters,Masterforce,Victory and Zone......How can they be part of the same universe when they have 2 completly different origins for charters like Fortress Maximus and Scorponk?

DANGER! DANGER! WRONGNESS OVERLOAD!

Headmasters is NOT connected to Beast Wars or Beast Machines. The Rebirth is the English version of Headmasters, and THAT is linked to beast Wars, NOT Headmasters. Why in the blue HELL would a Japanese Only series no kids would've ever seen take precidence over the English finale to G1? It wouldn't.

Oh, I'm sorry, Tramp, it's right because YOU say it is! Oh, that's the reason!

Then again, that's always your reason.

TROLL!

craggy wrote:but in the Ultimate Guide season 3 of the cartoon has a lot more than 3 episodes. which is it?

oh yeah, and who says that Gods can't die permanently?

The Ultimate Guide specifically states that they cannot permanently be destroyed. excuse mte, I meant Season four, not Season three. US Season four was only three episodes long, and the Japanese Headmansters series completely replaces them. IF the US cartoon had continued, the Japanese would have continued to follow along, translating the episodes into Japanese. They didn't start Headmasters until the cancelation of the US cartoon. three episodes into Season four.

Yeah, and Marvel's Comic CLEARLY STATES PRIMUS. IS. DEAD!

Tramp, READ the comic. Actually go away now, and read issue 77, and tell me, am I right with what Blaster says, yes or no? Not "But damolisher, the Ultimate Guide says, even though I said earlier the Ultimate Guide can't overwrite the Marvel comic, now it helps my argument, it can." Yes, or no.

I don't care if you've "Read the comic". I've read most of G2, and I can't remember a lot of what happened there from memory, and I highly doubt you remember every bit of information from the comics.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
You mean season 4 rebirth was ment to be the begining of season 4 but the point I'm trying to make is if Beast wars/machines are part of the same universe as the US G1 toon then it cant be in the same universe as the Japanese Headmasters,Masterforce,Victory and Zone......How can they be part of the same universe when they have 2 completly different origins for charters like Fortress Maximus and Scorponk?

Because they overwrote the three episode Season four completely as if it never happened. That three episode story was written basically to completely close-up the cartoon and end the series. It was pretty hastily written too. The Japanese simply replaced it with a better continuing story with more going on.

Tramp, lay off the drugs. Headmasters is it's own continuity. Rebirth still counts, since it's the English season 4. Headmasters is totally different, since it was, you know, ONLY BROADCAST PROPERLY IN JAPAN! (I.e. not the StarTV Dubs.)

Tramp wrote:

craggy wrote:but in the Ultimate Guide season 3 of the cartoon has a lot more than 3 episodes. which is it?

oh yeah, and who says that Gods can't die permanently?

The Ultimate Guide specifically states that they cannot permanently be destroyed. excuse mte, I meant Season four, not Season three. US Season four was only three episodes long, and the Japanese Headmansters series completely replaces them. IF the US cartoon had continued, the Japanese would have continued to follow along, translating the episodes into Japanese. They didn't start Headmasters until the cancelation of the US cartoon. three episodes into Season four.

Not 100% correct.The rebirth had already been produced but not yet arired in the US.It was sent over sea's to the Japanese produsers but they were not pleased with the story line and were not pleases with the idea of Human pilots for Transformers.In Japan that was nothing new they have had human's controling robots theimed shows on the air since the early 70's and the producers disided to scrasp the U.S. idea of headmasters for their own.

ok, looking at the book...sorry, The Book now and whilst yes, it does state that Unicron could be "temporarily defeated but never totally destroyed" it says nothing of the sort on the Primus page (which, incidentally pictures the Primus toy robot mode, which wasn't conceived, let alone released, until some time after Marvel had stopped publishing the comics) and nowhere in either of their profiles is the word "god".
The guide also tells me Optimus Prime's original mode was the one featured in the War Within comics, thus implying that I imagined the G1 cartoon and it's depiction of the rebuilt Orion Pax (not Optronix as we all know to be the truth) and that even now, when I watch a DVD and see the unveiling of Optimus Prime to the time-lost Aerialbots I am in fact having something akin to an acid flashback. I must also be imagining the G1 season 4 cartoons where Spike build Fortress Maximus out of the remains of the Hive City, because here in this infallible book it tells me only of the comic-book origin, that Fortress Maximus existed before the Headmasters-to-be arrived on Nebulos and was first bonded with a Nebulan named Galen.
Seriously now, why not just give up, admit that the conflicting continuities are not always reconcilable and that whilst each has their merits there is no single definitive one, bar that which we each choose ourselves?

Tramp wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
You mean season 4 rebirth was ment to be the begining of season 4 but the point I'm trying to make is if Beast wars/machines are part of the same universe as the US G1 toon then it cant be in the same universe as the Japanese Headmasters,Masterforce,Victory and Zone......How can they be part of the same universe when they have 2 completly different origins for charters like Fortress Maximus and Scorponk?

Because they overwrote the three episode Season four completely as if it never happened. That three episode story was written basically to completely close-up the cartoon and end the series. It was pretty hastily written too. The Japanese simply replaced it with a better continuing story with more going on.

Witch meens you were wrong about somthing.....Hear is a small section of your answer to me when I first asked you the question

Tramp wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Tramp I want to ask you a question.How do the Japanese universes fit into your theroy?I'm not looking for a large debate just looking for your thought on it.

Well, considering that the earlier ones before RID all stemmed directly from the original US G1 cartoon which had been dubbed into Japanese, I would place them in the same continuity as that show.

You now have to admit that their in different universes even if within the same mulityverse.

Oh, and Tramp, instead of continuing to derail the topic, which you're quite good at, might I add, if anything you're skilled at, you're good at derailing threads, answer my question. Have you reread the comic in the last 24 hours? Read issue 77. I know I"m right, I know for a fact I'm right. You are trying to claim something which isn't correct as usual, and we're clearly told Primus is dead. Cybertron would not tear itself apart if Primus could be revived. Same with Unicron he was destroyed PERMANANTLY by the matrix.