The Energon Pub

Galvatron Supreme wrote:I would like to see a 2nd tactic added to Gadgets. Repair alone is just not practical. At the very least, Strafe should be added.

I've been asking for second tactics for all alts for ages. Most single-tactic alts aren't terribly practical - once people start getting to level 3 and above, all those Avoid-only alts become useless.

With only 12 different tactic combinations, how do we balance them without making them all exactly the same?

Psychout wrote:With only 12 different tactic combinations, how do we balance them without making them all exactly the same?

I am not sure. Perhaps extending the min stat requirements to access some of them is a good starting point. But, having alts with a single tactic that is useless at low levels, like Repair, isn't practical either. As it stands now, the repair-only alts like gadgets are virtually useless.

Psychout wrote:With only 12 different tactic combinations, how do we balance them without making them all exactly the same?

Alts with two tactics are balanced and usable, single tactic alts are not (avoid alts are great at low levels than stink at high levels, repair and strafe only alts are the opposite, and any alt without two tactics can't make 11th level and generally earns less XP in the lower level missions).

I'd rather have an alt be balanced and usable over the lifetime of a bot than have it be different just for the sake of being different.

This game really needs to stop having things that look like options but are really traps that exist only to make the bot be different by making him suck.

Psychout wrote:With only 12 different tactic combinations, how do we balance them without making them all exactly the same?

well if you have the primary tactic cost 1k, and the second cost 4 and then have the opposite alt as well(so ram@1/strafe@4 and Strafe@1/ram@4) you have 24 alt classes which i think is really enough.

do we really need heavy assault vehicles and tanks?


course you could also have alts with 2 of the same tactic... that would be fun.

Tammuz wrote:

Psychout wrote:With only 12 different tactic combinations, how do we balance them without making them all exactly the same?

well if you have the primary tactic cost 1k, and the second cost 4 and then have the opposite alt as well(so ram@1/strafe@4 and Strafe@1/ram@4) you have 24 alt classes which i think is really enough.

do we really need heavy assault vehicles and tanks?


course you could also have alts with 2 of the same tactic... that would be fun.

Once again, you've hit the nail on the head.

I know Rat Convoy and yourself have proposed balanced tactics (hell, at times so have I), and this seems the best way to actually balance them. I'm just wondering why NO-ONE has even acknoledged our thoughts on tactics, let alone implemented them.

I know the staff are hard at work fixing the game as it is, but I doubt changing xp and adding tactics is hardly risky if it came to breaking the game, and I doubt it would take more than two minutes too.

It just seems like a no-brainer to me, and just a little acknoledgement would really go a long way.

psych's acknowledged, but he's poweless to act.

How about bringing back bot mode images. Not as before in version 1, where they added special powers, but just to use as a designator such as the current images? split them between the different classes... instead of having a car image, how about one of the outlines of a canon bot/con, or maybe gundam.... after all, when they battle they usually do it in humanoid mode, not 2 dunebeetles trying to run over each other.

quetzalcoatl wrote:How about bringing back bot mode images. Not as before in version 1, where they added special powers, but just to use as a designator such as the current images? split them between the different classes... instead of having a car image, how about one of the outlines of a canon bot/con, or maybe gundam.... after all, when they battle they usually do it in humanoid mode, not 2 dunebeetles trying to run over each other.

I think I came up with a pretty good idea of what to do with robot modes, which would give them something to do in the battles. Since it looks destined to be lost in the triple changer thread, I'm cross-posting it here, as I would like to see it as a new feature.

Rat Convoy wrote:I think the best way to implement triple changers is through bringing back robot modes. Instead of having robot modes give a static stat boost (which proved to be unbalanced given the math of the game), have the robot mode instead give a new tactic, reflavored to reflect the special abilities of certain TFs such as holograms, teleportation, grappler lines, whatever. A triple-changer would essentially be choosing an extra vehicular tactic as your robot mode ability rather than a dedicated robot mode ability.

That implements a number of things people want and is easy as heck to balance within the game.

Hollow One wrote:Once again, you've hit the nail on the head.

You're still around? Then I can't resist.

*Kicks Hollow One in the nuts!*

Hollow One wrote:I know the staff are hard at work fixing the game as it is, but I doubt changing xp and adding tactics is hardly risky if it came to breaking the game, and I doubt it would take more than two minutes too.

It just seems like a no-brainer to me, and just a little acknoledgement would really go a long way.

Hopefully the moderator panels will grant such abilities - building those takes more than two minutes though. Doing direct row inserts into the backend would be feasible if time/priority was given but, from experience, it's worse than that nut-kicking you just received if even one thing is goofed in the script.

It would be good to have a different variety in XP costs and possibly use the alt rotation with some rare alts with rather amazing XP costs (e.g. leave the gadget with just repair, but make it 500xp base to upgrade). Rarity could be used to represent effectiveness.

Rat Convoy wrote:I think I came up with a pretty good idea of what to do with robot modes, which would give them something to do in the battles. Since it looks destined to be lost in the triple changer thread, I'm cross-posting it here, as I would like to see it as a new feature.

It is a good idea - but implementing each of the special abilities (if they aren't just copies of current tactics with a different name) would require us to go deeper in defining how they should operate.

an alt with avoid@1 and ram@4

how about a poison/acid/damage-over-time move?for us with venomous alts? right now i have a cobra with ram, but poison would make alot more sense.

Rat Convoy wrote:I think I came up with a pretty good idea of what to do with robot modes

I do too, lets hope we can eventually find a way to use it.

As for the tactics questions;

Hollow One wrote:I know the staff are hard at work fixing the game as it is, but I doubt changing xp and adding tactics is hardly risky if it came to breaking the game, and I doubt it would take more than two minutes too.

If only it was that easy. If I ever find out, ill be sure to fill you guys in.

Tammuz wrote:course you could also have alts with 2 of the same tactic... that would be fun.

That idea had crossed my mind, but with only 1 feeder stat for 2 tactics, that would make them uberhard...

...maybe if they were a bit more expensive at base though?

Would a good rule of thumb be to make the base tactics add up to 5? 1/4k, 1.5/3.5k etc. with 2/3k for the more powerful combinations like Strafe/Ram?
I ony ask as ive been puzzling it about for a few days now and for some reason it just doesnt sit right.

Why not just get rid of the tactics all together and make attacks that require stats to be able to purchase with XP. It's not like it doesn't work, just most games call them feats or perks. And it'd give another level of customization, and be a nightmare to code... hmm...

Wingspan wrote:

Merc With A Mouth wrote:

Wingspan wrote:At least I didn't Rick Roll you.

I didn't either.

You know you're going to click it anyway. But if you liek the animu it's called Boku no Pico.

Psychout wrote:Would a good rule of thumb be to make the base tactics add up to 5? 1/4k, 1.5/3.5k etc. with 2/3k for the more powerful combinations like Strafe/Ram?
I ony ask as ive been puzzling it about for a few days now and for some reason it just doesnt sit right.

Depends on the combination; Repair/Avoid, Ram/Avoid, Strafe/Avoid work well with a 1,000/3,000 split since Avoid isn't as powerful of a tactic in the long term; that is a 4,000 XP total for the mathematically slow . However, defining a rule of thumb like that would be very good. It would (and I know I'm repeating myself from somewhere) play into having Core/Common/Rare alternate modes defined by the effectiveness of their tactic's XP values.

with the exception of strafe, most of the tactics where devastatingly good in the right situations.

granted avoid needs to work against tactics to preserve its useful ness in the end game, and strafe needs to be not self feeding, i still think 1/4 split for heterotactics and a 1/8 for homotactics

Tammuz wrote:with the exception of strafe, most of the tactics where devastatingly good in the right situations.

granted avoid needs to work against tactics to preserve its useful ness in the end game, and strafe needs to be not self feeding, i still think 1/4 split for heterotactics and a 1/8 for homotactics

Please explain.
-- Strafe being self feeding
-- Which tactics are hetro/homo to each other

I'm just not following the terminology well enough to fully understand.

Wingspan wrote:

Tammuz wrote:with the exception of strafe, most of the tactics where devastatingly good in the right situations.

granted avoid needs to work against tactics to preserve its useful ness in the end game, and strafe needs to be not self feeding, i still think 1/4 split for heterotactics and a 1/8 for homotactics

Please explain.
-- Strafe being self feeding
-- Which tactics are hetro/homo to each other

I'm just not following the terminology well enough to fully understand.

I don't get the hetero/homo myself, but strafe, from what he's saying, is the only tactic that increases in damage(or hits) dealt per strafe, unlike ram, avoid, and repair. Those just increase in likelyhood, while strafe does more hits.

Tammuz wrote:i still think 1/4 split for heterotactics and a 1/8 for homotactics

Thats pretty good, as something that had Ram/Ram as its tactics would pwn the dirty, dirty, arena so its gotta be paid for.

Should I ever get the chance to fiddle with the tactics, ill bear all of this information in mind.

Wingspan wrote:

Tammuz wrote:with the exception of strafe, most of the tactics where devastatingly good in the right situations.

granted avoid needs to work against tactics to preserve its useful ness in the end game, and strafe needs to be not self feeding, i still think 1/4 split for heterotactics and a 1/8 for homotactics

Please explain.
-- Strafe being self feeding
-- Which tactics are hetro/homo to each other

I'm just not following the terminology well enough to fully understand.

hetero- as inhaving different tactics

homo- as in having two of the same.

Strafe is self feeding as increasing the no.of upgrades in strafe not only increases the frequency of performing that tactic but also it's damage aswell, and to a greater extent than FRP boosts strafes damage, until you hit 6 FRP(due to the tactic nerf). upgrades in every other tactic only affects the frequency.

Single-Tactic builds build extremely slower, it is advised to have avoid as a second and an offensive tactic as first (mean: cheaper) tactic for any build on lower levels.

It is also interesting, that with the nerfed strafe, it is still better to have a few points on it if available, it can make heavier attacks than a few low-level weapons with the granted 100% accuracy.

single tactics wouldn't be slower builds if you had ram starting at 1k AND ram starting at 4 k


and you're right about strafe, Ram does more damage with 0ne point invested but past that strafe rules as you need to invest in both STR and Ram to make rams match strafe, which is usally a much more expensive setup

i've had alot of fun with my latest toy;

No argument there, but at least Strength has a second (and third) function - increasing damage (and armour).

Cant wait to try out this new toy either.

Bun's already adjusted it to make comparing setups easier

it'll have to wait till saturday though as i'm not going to be home tonight.

Tammuz wrote:

Have..I must...
whaer does she get those wonderful toys?