The Energon Pub

My biggest issue about everything is how complicated things can get. I'll like to start off saying this idea, while not being complicated at first, is now complicated.

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(check this click of scrubs and you'll get what I was aiming for)

1) Any system put into place for voting is all about popularity.

2) Any system in place will fall apart if someone feels cheated or incase a new leader is needed. Never has a mod been voted on my the players for HMW.

3) There is no need to retroactively change the system in place. Ambassadors have nothing to do with clans or modding of HMW.

4) There cannot be 12 ambassadors when you have a faction and a clan inside of it. There has to be 2 from each for a total of 16 or 1 for a total of 8 so there is equal representation.

5) Always have equal representation - you can have 2 members who aren't part of a clan while there is only 1 clan ambassador.

6) Are ambassadors needed?

7) Breathe.

We feel down a slippery slope after the first post.

Burn wrote:I agree, post count does NOT need to be a pre-requisite, however I think you'll find that a lot of people will judge a person not only by their team, but how active, and how they behave on the forums.

Up until this thread I couldn't see a point in integrating sub-faction forums onto this site, I was of the belief that things were fine and could have been left alone.

But if i'm going to vote for someone I want to know that person. I want to be able to interact with them, to get to know them, to bounce ideas for tactics and stuff off them as well as have a bit of fun. And with the sub-factions being incorporated into Seibertron.com i'll be able to do that.

And that's how i'm going to vote for someone, on how well I know them, but I won't get to know them if they don't post.

This is what I was trying to say earlier, just explained in a much better way. I still think that even if we don't put a filter on our nomination system, the voters won't vote for someone they don't know. I agree with mogwai that it would help keep things simpler to have a filter, but maybe it would be best to see if it is even complicated enough to need simplification. If we are going to have campaigns before the election, then a simple "filter system" might just be to say that two other people have to second a persons self nomination before they are considered a candidate. If we aren't going to have a campaign format, then it probably wouldn't be complicated even if a bunch of inactive people did decide to throw their hat into the ring.

honestly, after the initial go round, I think alot of things will clear themselves up naturally. Mainly in terms of what is needed in a leader.

Is a high post count needed to be a good leader, of course not, but in initial elections the people with higher post counts will be better known and thus more likely to win. If someone without alot of post counts comes in and makes a strong campaign and is able to convince people that they are a good candidate and they get the votes by all means they should get a shot to lead.

As far as amount of experience in the game, I personally think players with more experience who are more active will be much better leaders, does this mean that requirements are necessary for running, not really, we have to rely on the faction to elect the right people. Taking away the restrictions basically puts all the pressure on the faction to not screw it up. The problems start arising when everyone and their brother decides they want to lead the faction...you get 100 different people with 1 vote each. Obviously it won't be that extreme, you'll have cliques that back several different popular candidates. The biggest challenge will be after the election to erase those cliques and form a united front, something that is going to be one of the most important things...because you don't want potentially good leaders to essentially dissappear because they lost...just like you don't want a leader who works his ass off to get the position but then thinks the toughest part of the job is done...like thinking once you get married you've finished the competition & can just sit back and relax now, don't have to worry bout romancing her anymore.

So yeah, hard requirements probably a bad idea. Put the pressure on the voters to make the smart decision. And frankly leadership by committee might be the best way to go. 3 leaders & 3 diplomats, good ole checks & balances...plus that way you can have almost 24 hour leader availability.

Counterpunch wrote:I nominate myself to be a dimplomat for whatever faction I join.

I'm compelling and handsome.

If you need any further information, feel free to ask your neighbor.

Counterpunch for Supreme Overlord.

-edit-

sprokitz is wise. sprokitz for Supreme Underlord!

I agree that post count alone should not dictate who can be a leader/diplomat or not; however, it should be a factor in the decision process, though a minor one at best. Basically IMO, what needs to happen is each faction start a thread and make a list of all the people who are running for diplomat. Then each candidate make a little speech about why they should be a diplomat. They should say what they can contribute to the community as a whole, how closely they will work with the rest of the faction, etc. This needs to be tied in with several other key factors: how active that person is on the boards, if they uphold the factions values (if they have any), maybe even if the other members of the faction like that person. I mean, if one person is an asshole to everyone else, are you going to want to vote for that person, even if they might be a master politician or whatever? Of course not.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on this. Take it for what it is.

Burn wrote:

Counterpunch wrote:I nominate myself to be a dimplomat for whatever faction I join.

I'm compelling and handsome.

If you need any further information, feel free to ask your neighbor.

Counterpunch for Supreme Overlord.

-edit-

sprokitz is wise. sprokitz for Supreme Underlord!

Do we need a third team member of Team Hate so that we can have 3 diplomats?

(Punch could count...)

Burn wrote:Okay I think we need to take a step or two back here.

The most important facet about a Leader and Diplomat is quality over quantity

However, how are you suppose to judge the quality of a person if they don't post?

How are you to know that a person is a tactical genius? Based on their bots?

If that's the case, Ghost Rider, Rice-Ci and Scrapper could have been considered tactical geniuses.

I agree, post count does NOT need to be a pre-requisite, however I think you'll find that a lot of people will judge a person not only by their team, but how active, and how they behave on the forums.

Up until this thread I couldn't see a point in integrating sub-faction forums onto this site, I was of the belief that things were fine and could have been left alone.

But if i'm going to vote for someone I want to know that person. I want to be able to interact with them, to get to know them, to bounce ideas for tactics and stuff off them as well as have a bit of fun. And with the sub-factions being incorporated into Seibertron.com i'll be able to do that.

And that's how i'm going to vote for someone, on how well I know them, but I won't get to know them if they don't post.

Take you for example Absolute Zero, you're not much of a poster but i've had a couple of little discussions with you, figure you're a pretty decent guy. Yet you say I wouldn't make a great leader. Am I a little offended by that? Yes. But you have your reasons for saying that. I've at least "put myself out there" for people to get to know me, to judge me, or whatever. Vice versa I probably wouldn't vote for you either. Not out of spite, but because I don't really know you well enough.

And I don't mean any of that in an offensive way, just throwing my line of thinking out there.

Burn does makes a very good point. Quality is definitely more desriable than quantity.

However, not all of us will have the chance to get to know every single person well enough to vote for? (Just as in Real Politics) you may know where they stand on issues, how their team does, but you may not be able to know all of them personally. That being said, every persons vote is important as it means that they are actively participating in their faction and their game. If you don't know any of the candidates then, will you not vote? I'd hope not as you'd be doing your own faction a disservice.

The sub-faction forums may help be a cure to the getting to know you bug. Only time will tell. I however look to the faction forums to be a main part of faction discussions and conversation and I believe it is then and there that the leaders will be proven.

Burn wrote:Okay I think we need to take a step or two back here.

The most important facet about a Leader and Diplomat is quality over quantity

However, how are you suppose to judge the quality of a person if they don't post?

How are you to know that a person is a tactical genius? Based on their bots?

If that's the case, Ghost Rider, Rice-Ci and Scrapper could have been considered tactical geniuses.

I agree, post count does NOT need to be a pre-requisite, however I think you'll find that a lot of people will judge a person not only by their team, but how active, and how they behave on the forums.

Up until this thread I couldn't see a point in integrating sub-faction forums onto this site, I was of the belief that things were fine and could have been left alone.

But if i'm going to vote for someone I want to know that person. I want to be able to interact with them, to get to know them, to bounce ideas for tactics and stuff off them as well as have a bit of fun. And with the sub-factions being incorporated into Seibertron.com i'll be able to do that.

And that's how i'm going to vote for someone, on how well I know them, but I won't get to know them if they don't post.

Take you for example Absolute Zero, you're not much of a poster but i've had a couple of little discussions with you, figure you're a pretty decent guy. Yet you say I wouldn't make a great leader. Am I a little offended by that? Yes. But you have your reasons for saying that. I've at least "put myself out there" for people to get to know me, to judge me, or whatever. Vice versa I probably wouldn't vote for you either. Not out of spite, but because I don't really know you well enough.

And I don't mean any of that in an offensive way, just throwing my line of thinking out there.

So it's back to vote in/vote out no requirements? I said that earlier. I just don't like the idea that someone could come in and take control from http://www.letsseeifwecanscrewthissite.com and mess with the faction until a mod or admin can come regain control of it. Not that it's that likely but the opportunity and loop hole are there.

sprockitz wrote:And frankly leadership by committee might be the best way to go. 3 leaders & 3 diplomats, good ole checks & balances...plus that way you can have almost 24 hour leader availability.

I like that idea. Total leadership by one person is usually not a good thing in the long run. But it does work sometimes.

Hmm, where to start? Let us begin with leaders.

At the start of V2.0 leaders should be the faction mods. But after the first month when the dust has settled and the communities are established the position should come up for election. The process of election should be disscused and voted on by the faction in the month preceding the first election, making this time period a 'constitutional congress' if you will. They should decide the term, nomination system, and the particulars of how he/she can run the faction. Should he/she run it themselves or should they pick out a 'war cabinet' if you will filling positions like intelligence(Reviewing and analysing sightings of enemy forces and movements by teams in the field.), R&D(study of the game mechancics, organizing and moderating discussion on game changes to suggest to OS, etc.), lieutenants who can focus on implimenting a portion of the commander's plans, and whatever else the faction players can think of. But this is one example. The faction could even vote for the commander and his cabinent/lieutenants, opening up even more interaction in the faction.

Diplomats would be a bit trickier. The first set should probably be voted on by the faction members accessing the faction forums right now, then after the 'constitutional convention' period new ones are elected based on guidlines decided on in the previous month like with the commander.

Essentially pick a starting set to carry us over in the month after the reset while deciding how we want our faction's government to function. This way the Maximals could create a truely democratic system where everybody has a chance at a position, while the Predacons could decide it via a mix of popularity contests and millitary posturing in the pits. Every faction could be different to an extent so long as the faction has the final say in who is chosen.

Another problem that comes to mind is the duties and responsibilities of the Ambassadors.

Having three will be a bit tricky. Do they all do the same thing? Represent the faction in all quarters? I'd wager we'll either get messages in triplicate or three conflicting messages from each ambassador.

Will the ambassadors have well defined roles?

Will the first ambassador, for instance, represent the factions military interests? Will the second represent the "Civilian" and supply sectors? Will the third try to negotiate trade and non-aggression/aggression treaties?

In short, will each ambassador have the same, overlapping duties or will we tier their responsibilities, and if so, how do we go about that?

Mogwai Prime wrote:Someone who is intimidated about just speaking in the forums should lead? Wouldn't that be even more intimidating? And then what if that person fails? You think he is still going to want to participate? Probably not .... I thought this is about getting people to participate ... It gives people a low key way to get in even if it's just by saying "Hey I've been reading the forums for a long time and would like to nominate so and so." I don't think anyone who gets intimidated by the boards would go for a leader anyways, but I think that person should have .... how to put it .... desire to be a part of the forums and be able to show it through his post count. Now whether that person is popular or not is not in question. I just think he should be able to show that he wants to be a part of the faction he is in. If someone new wants to get into that role I think he should have to show it to his faction by:

1) Posting even if it's talking about how to make altmodes.

2) Building the trust of his faction through his actions on the boards.

I just don't think some Joe Shmoe that hasn't done anything to show his dedication to the Forums, Game or anything like that, should be able to come in and take control. If you can't show your support for Seibertron as a whole, why should you get a leadership role in a faction that will be one fourthish of the people who do support this game?

I just don't think it should be given to someone that doesn't show his support and build some sort of representation of himself with his faction. If a new person wants a leadership role he should have to show that he can handle it.

It's just my opinion, though .... it doesn't have to be this way.

So just because someone is intimidated by the boards means they have no desire to be a part of the Forums. Thats just like saying someone with ADD has no desire to learn. Not everyone is outspoken and brash when confronting a large clique of people. Many people are quiet and LEAD BY EXAMPLE and then slowly get to know a few people at a time until they are comfortable with their surroundings.

You should show that you are a part of this community and be dedicated to your cause, but I guarntee there are lurkers who probably know just as much if not more than most of us, and would probably be a better leader than someone with X# posts.

Knives wrote:At the start of V2.0 leaders should be the faction mods.

Except there is no such thing as "faction mods".

"Sub-faction Mods" yes, but overall "Faction Mods", no.

However I do agree in letting the dust settle and let people get a feel for the game before appointing Leaders and Diplomats.

Knight Hawk - Just answer me this one question.

If a person is intimidated by the forums, why then would they want to be leader?

Knight Hawk wrote:

Mogwai Prime wrote:Someone who is intimidated about just speaking in the forums should lead? Wouldn't that be even more intimidating? And then what if that person fails? You think he is still going to want to participate? Probably not .... I thought this is about getting people to participate ... It gives people a low key way to get in even if it's just by saying "Hey I've been reading the forums for a long time and would like to nominate so and so." I don't think anyone who gets intimidated by the boards would go for a leader anyways, but I think that person should have .... how to put it .... desire to be a part of the forums and be able to show it through his post count. Now whether that person is popular or not is not in question. I just think he should be able to show that he wants to be a part of the faction he is in. If someone new wants to get into that role I think he should have to show it to his faction by:

1) Posting even if it's talking about how to make altmodes.

2) Building the trust of his faction through his actions on the boards.

I just don't think some Joe Shmoe that hasn't done anything to show his dedication to the Forums, Game or anything like that, should be able to come in and take control. If you can't show your support for Seibertron as a whole, why should you get a leadership role in a faction that will be one fourthish of the people who do support this game?

I just don't think it should be given to someone that doesn't show his support and build some sort of representation of himself with his faction. If a new person wants a leadership role he should have to show that he can handle it.

It's just my opinion, though .... it doesn't have to be this way.

So just because someone is intimidated by the boards means they have no desire to be a part of the Forums. Thats just like saying someone with ADD has no desire to learn. Not everyone is outspoken and brash when confronting a large clique of people. Many people are quiet and LEAD BY EXAMPLE and then slowly get to know a few people at a time until they are comfortable with their surroundings.

You should show that you are a part of this community and be dedicated to your cause, but I guarntee there are lurkers who probably know just as much if not more than most of us, and would probably be a better leader than someone with X# posts.

ok you're taking what I'm saying all wrong I think. I think that to be nominated you should have some way of showing your dedication to the Site/Game/Forums as a whole. I'm not saying that person shouldn't want to. I'm saying he should have the proof that he may know the "pulse" of his prospective constituency. As burn said, you will vote for who you believe to be a good person for the role with the knowledge for the position. There isn't any other way to know who someone is unless they post. And the only way to know that is with a post count. It show's some sort of participation in the forums. You can get an Idea of the person by reading their past posts. But, I just don't think In My Opinion that someone should just walk in and take charge without getting known by his faction. The post count provides a simple way to show that someone has even taken that step towards being a part of the forums and this part of the game. It's not only game strategy a leader needs, he needs people to trust his decisions. I don't think a post count should determine the leader but just be a simple requirement to nomination. I don't know about other countries but in the US the president must be a certain age and from the US to even be considered. Shows that he's at least been here and should know what's going on. It's up to his personality and the respect of his people to get to the Presidency. I'm not saying that the post count makes the leader but it does go to show, in part, his dedication to this part of the game in my opinion.

Burn wrote:Knight Hawk - Just answer me this one question.

If a person is intimidated by the forums, why then would they want to be leader?

Some people are shy, and others might say they like to follow instead of lead. I tend to think that shy people make great leaders as they have taken the time to observe others and take the good ideas from every situation and make a better one.

It's something that I, as a shy person, have used to my advantage at my work. I observe leaders leading, take the best of their ideas that I see happening and then combine all those ideas to enhance my own performance and the performance of those that I work with.

Now if they are so intimidated that they never post, then this may be a problem as they will need to at some point. I'm talking more about those like me, that take a while to break the ice, so to speak.

Mogwai Prime wrote:

Knight Hawk wrote:

Mogwai Prime wrote:Someone who is intimidated about just speaking in the forums should lead? Wouldn't that be even more intimidating? And then what if that person fails? You think he is still going to want to participate? Probably not .... I thought this is about getting people to participate ... It gives people a low key way to get in even if it's just by saying "Hey I've been reading the forums for a long time and would like to nominate so and so." I don't think anyone who gets intimidated by the boards would go for a leader anyways, but I think that person should have .... how to put it .... desire to be a part of the forums and be able to show it through his post count. Now whether that person is popular or not is not in question. I just think he should be able to show that he wants to be a part of the faction he is in. If someone new wants to get into that role I think he should have to show it to his faction by:

1) Posting even if it's talking about how to make altmodes.

2) Building the trust of his faction through his actions on the boards.

I just don't think some Joe Shmoe that hasn't done anything to show his dedication to the Forums, Game or anything like that, should be able to come in and take control. If you can't show your support for Seibertron as a whole, why should you get a leadership role in a faction that will be one fourthish of the people who do support this game?

I just don't think it should be given to someone that doesn't show his support and build some sort of representation of himself with his faction. If a new person wants a leadership role he should have to show that he can handle it.

It's just my opinion, though .... it doesn't have to be this way.

So just because someone is intimidated by the boards means they have no desire to be a part of the Forums. Thats just like saying someone with ADD has no desire to learn. Not everyone is outspoken and brash when confronting a large clique of people. Many people are quiet and LEAD BY EXAMPLE and then slowly get to know a few people at a time until they are comfortable with their surroundings.

You should show that you are a part of this community and be dedicated to your cause, but I guarntee there are lurkers who probably know just as much if not more than most of us, and would probably be a better leader than someone with X# posts.

ok you're taking what I'm saying all wrong I think. I think that to be nominated you should have some way of showing your dedication to the Site/Game/Forums as a whole. I'm not saying that person shouldn't want to. I'm saying he should have the proof that he may know the "pulse" of his prospective constituency. As burn said, you will vote for who you believe to be a good person for the role with the knowledge for the position. There isn't any other way to know who someone is unless they post. And the only way to know that is with a post count. It show's some sort of participation in the forums. You can get an Idea of the person by reading their past posts. But, I just don't think In My Opinion that someone should just walk in and take charge without getting known by his faction. The post count provides a simple way to show that someone has even taken that step towards being a part of the forums and this part of the game. It's not only game strategy a leader needs, he needs people to trust his decisions. I don't think a post count should determine the leader but just be a simple requirement to nomination. I don't know about other countries but in the US the president must be a certain age and from the US to even be considered. Shows that he's at least been here and should know what's going on. It's up to his personality and the respect of his people to get to the Presidency. I'm not saying that the post count makes the leader but it does go to show, in part, his dedication to this part of the game in my opinion.

I agree to that point that Jo Schmo shouldn't be able to come in and be leader. I just don't think post count per say is going to show that someone has good game knowledge. Someone could technically have 3000 posts and not said 1 thing of value in reference to HMW. I think that people here will know who is and isn't active for the first vote, then once the reset comes around it will be a little easier to see who the good leaders will be.

Knight Hawk wrote:

Burn wrote:Knight Hawk - Just answer me this one question.

If a person is intimidated by the forums, why then would they want to be leader?

Some people are shy, and others might say they like to follow instead of lead. I tend to think that shy people make great leaders as they have taken the time to observe others and take the good ideas from every situation and make a better one.

It's something that I, as a shy person, have used to my advantage at my work. I observe leaders leading, take the best of their ideas that I see happening and then combine all those ideas to enhance my own performance and the performance of those that I work with.

Now if they are so intimidated that they never post, then this may be a problem as they will need to at some point. I'm talking more about those like me, that take a while to break the ice, so to speak.

It's something nearly everyone on these forums have gone through. I can think of only a handful of people who have dived straight in.

The thing to remember is this. A Leader's word will not be final, a person won't have to follow it.

If someone doesn't agree with the plan, then they should know they are welcome to voice their objections. I think this alone will be a great way for people to break the ice and get involved. Provided of course we don't shout them down, this is where the big Mods come in to play and remind us that post counts and join dates mean NOTHING.

Since this discussion seems to be coming to the agreement of post count should not be a requirement, and while my statements before where to the extreme of not needing it, and obviously had flaws. Every problem has a simple solution though, if one is willing to look for it.

Burn: The reason I said you wouldn't make a good faction leader has nothing to do with your knowledge of the game or ability to come up with tactics. It has more to do with your run ins with the powers that be of Seibs.

Having a small requirement like 300 posts could be implemented. Its enough to eliminate anyone from coming out of nowhere with nothing known about them but also saves time. This way we don't have to look through as many applicants. Plus I doubt anyone with under 300 posts has made enough of an impression on the HMW community to earn enough votes to win anyway. The requirement would atleast prevent a bunch of 1 vote counts on the polls.

Knight Hawk wrote:Someone could technically have 3000 posts and not said 1 thing of value in reference to HMW.

or 10,000
c*ough* Steve *cough*

sprockitz wrote:

Knight Hawk wrote:Someone could technically have 3000 posts and not said 1 thing of value in reference to HMW.

or 10,000
c*ough* Steve *cough*

I didn't want to go there myself.

I think a post count shows one thing ... Participation in the forums. Whether good or bad it shows that one simple thing. And, to me it shows that someone has at least shown he is participating in the forums. It's just that simple.

To whoever asked me a post count number to go by, that would be determined by those of us who already participate. Whether it's 10 or 1000 I don't really care.

I think participation should be a requirement. If you disagree with me ... that's ok I understand your point, I just don't agree with it. And, that's ok I'm not up in arms over it... I just don't agree that someone no one knows, we have no idea about and doesn't participate in the forums should just be able to come in out of the blue take the reigns of a faction.

Yes, I know people still have the choice to follow and that I agree with. But, if a leader has limited mod powers and throws a tantrum, he could cause more havoc than just being a bad leader.

I have already said that using a vote in/vote out system without a requirement is ok also. I was just throwing my own opinion into the fray.... I didn't mean to say that was the only way. If that's how it was percieved then I apologize for appearing to give that position.

I think it was just that it seemed that only those with a lot of posts should be eligible, and none of the new people should be.

Something that should be taken into consideration, is how the person will react to being faction leader.

And, since I just thought of a flaw with 3 faction leaders as was suggested before, if all three disagree, you end up with a problem. There needs to be one overall faction leader, but that doesn't mean there can't be advisors and SICs.

-editted 'cause it wasn't necessary-

I know there been some discussion as to the number of ambassadors. When I heard about this idea, I was under the impression that each faction would have an ambassador for each faction hence the three ambassadors. For example

Maximal ambassador A goes and "talks" to Con ambassador B about topic C.

This, to me, is the sole purpose of an ambassador. This whole UF thing doesn't need to be created. Ambassadors are communication and represntation only with power only given to them by the respective leaders of the factions. The only reason something like the UF would come into play is if it effects the game as whole. If it is that big, then I would think it would come out on here and started by one of the HMW Mods. As for how they should be selected and so forth, let the faction themselves figure that out.