The Energon Pub

[Maggotron]

I'd say it's a run of the mill action movie with robots. But the human enemy angle is new for me. Kinda found that one a bit good. All in all, I enjoyed it. Now I want the Dinobot toys.

[SlyTF1]

Also, I find it funny how people complain that AOE is over plotted, when a lack of plot is what they were complaining about, before. If there was any less plot in AOE, it would have needed to have been a completely different movie.

[chivesbot20]

Good point SlyTf1. Anything for shooting down the live action films and to send them plummiting down into the pool of critics.

[Rodimus Prime]

However it is also fact that the TF movie franchise has a cult following

Not it is not "fact."

Also, you call nearly 4 BILLION dollars worldwide for the franchise "cult following?" Damn, how much would it have made if it was actually paid to be viewed by the general audience! Oh wait. IT WAS.

[ZeroWolf]

However it is also fact that the TF movie franchise has a cult following

Not it is not "fact."

Also, you call nearly 4 BILLION dollars worldwide for the franchise "cult following?" Damn, how much would it have made if it was actually paid to be viewed by the general audience! Oh wait. IT WAS.

I know a lot of 'cult' shows that would love that much money

Seriously, Darkman. Red dwarf is a cult show, the TF movies are mainstream, like it or not.

One thing I'll agree with you on though is about improvements. But that is more learning from mistakes. Considering some fan feedback that is a success so far but again it's all opinion. Darkman, forgive me if you already said this, but what is your MAIN beef with the movies? Or to put it a better way, what would you do?

[chivesbot20]

Honestly id rather not listen to what he wants from the movies. He'll tell you what he doesn't want in the movies.

[Darkman20xx]

However it is also fact that the TF movie franchise has a cult following

Not it is not "fact."

Also, you call nearly 4 BILLION dollars worldwide for the franchise "cult following?" Damn, how much would it have made if it was actually paid to be viewed by the general audience! Oh wait. IT WAS.

I know a lot of 'cult' shows that would love that much money

Seriously, Darkman. Red dwarf is a cult show, the TF movies are mainstream, like it or not.

One thing I'll agree with you on though is about improvements. But that is more learning from mistakes. Considering some fan feedback that is a success so far but again it's all opinion. Darkman, forgive me if you already said this, but what is your MAIN beef with the movies? Or to put it a better way, what would you do?

This is really where the argument began. I feel AOE was put out simply to sell toys and make money. Bay said he wanted to stop at 3, they threw millions at him to stay, and then we get left with a movie that quite honestly IMO nobody really put a whole lot of effort into. When you have things like one of the main elements of the movie being called "Transformium" and super weapons that are nothing but big Magnets that pick up stuff and drop it on enemies (really Ratchet and Klankish) I don't call that trying. Point blank it feels like the movie was put out to meet a deadline and hope be functional enough to make another sequel. Again nobody has to agree with my opinion and I really don't care if they don't. Just don't come at me with the "Bay Hater" crap and scream "f you AOE was awesome" I expected more, it didn't deliver, hopefully if I and the others who didn't like it speak, they'll go back to the drawing board and put out a better production next time out.

[Darkman20xx]

Honestly id rather not listen to what he wants from the movies. He'll tell you what he doesn't want in the movies.

Thanks for proving my point

[chivesbot20]

What

[chivesbot20]

What

[SlyTF1]

However it is also fact that the TF movie franchise has a cult following

Not it is not "fact."

Also, you call nearly 4 BILLION dollars worldwide for the franchise "cult following?" Damn, how much would it have made if it was actually paid to be viewed by the general audience! Oh wait. IT WAS.

I know a lot of 'cult' shows that would love that much money

Seriously, Darkman. Red dwarf is a cult show, the TF movies are mainstream, like it or not.

One thing I'll agree with you on though is about improvements. But that is more learning from mistakes. Considering some fan feedback that is a success so far but again it's all opinion. Darkman, forgive me if you already said this, but what is your MAIN beef with the movies? Or to put it a better way, what would you do?

This is really where the argument began. I feel AOE was put out simply to sell toys and make money. Bay said he wanted to stop at 3, they threw millions at him to stay, and then we get left with a movie that quite honestly IMO nobody really put a whole lot of effort into. When you have things like one of the main elements of the movie being called "Transformium" and super weapons that are nothing but big Magnets that pick up stuff and drop it on enemies (really Ratchet and Klankish) I don't call that trying. Point blank it feels like the movie was put out to meet a deadline and hope be functional enough to make another sequel. Again nobody has to agree with my opinion and I really don't care if they don't. Just don't come at me with the "Bay Hater" crap and scream "f you AOE was awesome" I expected more, it didn't deliver, hopefully if I and the others who didn't like it speak, they'll go back to the drawing board and put out a better production next time out.

It was called Transformium to illustrate how all the scientist wanted to do was turn the entire idea of Transformers into some corporate ass marketing scheme. If you ask me, that was a smart move.

[Burn]

I feel AOE was put out simply to sell toys and make money.

What else was it suppose to do?

left with a movie that quite honestly IMO nobody really put a whole lot of effort into.

Harsh dude, harsh. What, all those CGI effects were simple?

hopefully if I and the others who didn't like it speak, they'll go back to the drawing board and put out a better production next time out.

No, it won't. It never will. You're in a minority. The majority are those who have bought tickets and helped propel the takings so high. That's who they will listen to.

[Rodimus Prime]

I feel AOE was put out simply to sell toys and make money.

Then your feeling is correct. That's exactly what it was supposed to do. That's what ALL the TF movies were supposed to do. SELL TOYS. That's what EVERY TF continuity is supposed to do. SUPPORT A TOY LINE. Paramount even says it in the films' credits. "Based on Hasbro's Transformers toys." This is a basic fact some people fail to grasp.

[SKYWARPED_128]

I'm only guessing here, but I think the point Darkman is trying to make is that he feels there's no creative passion in the TF movies. As long as the movies do what they're supposed to do (sell toys, sell tickets) nothing else matters.

Again, just guessing.

@Darkman: Frankly, I don't think Paramount set out to make the next Dredd, or District 9 (or whatever other sleeper hits that comes to mind) in the first place. More likely, their first priority is to popularize the TF brand name and get kids to buy the likenesses of their favorite characters in toy form. Paramount, specifically Steven Spielberg, then got Bay on board, and Bay delivered the goods--no more, no less.

Could they have made a Transformers movie that delves into the rich mythology and lore of its fictional world? Yes, but it wasn't a priority. Personally, I think AOE is a first step in that direction, but I respect your dislike of AOE, so let's just leave it at that.

Frankly, AOE is far from perfect, and I agree with several of your points from previous posts. Still, I like it enough for the simple fact that many of the things I hated about the previous 3 films were omitted, and there's at least some effort in delving into the mythology of the TF world with the Creators and whatnot.

The best one can expect from Bay and Kruger are baby steps. They, as well as Paramount, aren't exactly in it for the fans. And if you ask me, ROTF set a precedent that made them believe that TF movies will make tons of money anyhow, as long as Bay delivers on the action.

I personally take it as a small miracle that Bay and/or Kruger actually decided to get rid of the toilet humor and switch away from casting overacting comedians, as well as staying away from using the military. The same formula had been used for the past 3 movies, and it's made them a lot of money regardless of the critics. To some degree, making these changes actually shows that they're starting to care...more or less.

[Sabrblade]

I personally take it as a small miracle that Bay and/or Kruger actually decided to get rid of the toilet humor and switch away from casting overacting comedians, as well as staying away from using the military. The same formula had been used for the past 3 movies, and it's made them a lot of money regardless of the critics. To some degree, making these changes actually shows that they're starting to care...more or less.

[ZeroWolf]

However it is also fact that the TF movie franchise has a cult following

Not it is not "fact."

Also, you call nearly 4 BILLION dollars worldwide for the franchise "cult following?" Damn, how much would it have made if it was actually paid to be viewed by the general audience! Oh wait. IT WAS.

I know a lot of 'cult' shows that would love that much money

Seriously, Darkman. Red dwarf is a cult show, the TF movies are mainstream, like it or not.

One thing I'll agree with you on though is about improvements. But that is more learning from mistakes. Considering some fan feedback that is a success so far but again it's all opinion. Darkman, forgive me if you already said this, but what is your MAIN beef with the movies? Or to put it a better way, what would you do?

This is really where the argument began. I feel AOE was put out simply to sell toys and make money. Bay said he wanted to stop at 3, they threw millions at him to stay, and then we get left with a movie that quite honestly IMO nobody really put a whole lot of effort into. When you have things like one of the main elements of the movie being called "Transformium" and super weapons that are nothing but big Magnets that pick up stuff and drop it on enemies (really Ratchet and Klankish) I don't call that trying. Point blank it feels like the movie was put out to meet a deadline and hope be functional enough to make another sequel. Again nobody has to agree with my opinion and I really don't care if they don't. Just don't come at me with the "Bay Hater" crap and scream "f you AOE was awesome" I expected more, it didn't deliver, hopefully if I and the others who didn't like it speak, they'll go back to the drawing board and put out a better production next time out.

Thank you for your post, some of the finer points have been addressed by better users than I. I get what your saying though and I've heard similar arguments regarding other things (like transformer toys themselves). As I said a large part of improvements is learning. You can't learn without trying first and as Skywarpped pointed out there's already been changes. So you may want more but don't forget to praise them for the good changes they've done.

[Darkman20xx]

I'm only guessing here, but I think the point Darkman is trying to make is that he feels there's no creative passion in the TF movies. As long as the movies do what they're supposed to do (sell toys, sell tickets) nothing else matters.

Again, just guessing.

Exactly what I am trying to say. Let me be clear though AOE is the first time I completely felt this way. While the other movies weren't perfect either at least I felt they cared about the product they put out. AOE felt like we have a line that needs to be on the shelf by this date...we need a movie this summer...let's make it happen. Quite honestly if that is really their only intention, I would much rather them cut the budget, make a lesser priced flick and put the difference in amount into the toys (I won't even get started on how I feel those turned out)

Sadly some people will defend anything that has the TF name to it and it gives the studios an invincible feeling like anything they try to put out there will go over. The TF license to me is worth more than just a slightly average film tied to it. My mind, my opinion.

[Darkman20xx]

I feel AOE was put out simply to sell toys and make money.

What else was it suppose to do?

left with a movie that quite honestly IMO nobody really put a whole lot of effort into.

Harsh dude, harsh. What, all those CGI effects were simple?

hopefully if I and the others who didn't like it speak, they'll go back to the drawing board and put out a better production next time out.

No, it won't. It never will. You're in a minority. The majority are those who have bought tickets and helped propel the takings so high. That's who they will listen to.

I'm the minority of a TF themed forum. In movie discussion forums that aren't part of a TF board the numbers are a lot closer, hence why the domestic take was what it was.

[chivesbot20]

I think the humans reaction is depicted perfectly in AOE. The humans are torn by Chicago's destruction. The humans are taught to be scared of all transformers by government officials such as Attinger. Bumblebee and optimus primes faces are on posters that say hate. Than the government tells the people that if you find an alien robot, you get a load of money if you call a phone number. The hunt begins. Cemetery Winds comes and completely destroys the robot. Deals are made were now KSI can take its parts from the robots (autobots) and told that its a decepticon. They take it apart to make a market out of it. I honestly think that if the Battle of Chicago happened humans would do this.

[No Death for Prowl]

I don't see toy sales having much(if any) influence whether these movies are made or not. A few minor characters may be added to a movie here or there to boost the sale of a particular toy, but I find it hard to imagine a huge budget movie being made to justify the sale of a new toy line. Toy sales are the icing on the cake of box office take, similar to sports team merchandise sales to attendance figures. Obviously, this is not a perfect analogy, bit I doubt anybody would argue a sports team exists just so it can plaster its logo on a T-shirt. Therefore, I doubt AOE came into existence because somebody at Hasbro said "Hey, we've got another Leader Class Prime to sell. It's time to get Bay and the crew together!"

Ultimately, I think a lot of fans expect too much from these films.

As mentioned, the Transformers canon/mythology is rich and varied. However, it is also vast and, at times, confusing. There are tons of characters and continuity was often an afterthought and that's within G1 itself. Something as basic as the TFs origin story had different versions(Quintessons vs. Primus), elements were randomly added for sake of plot convenience(Matrix), and characters came and went for the sake of new toy lines.

To try to make sense of it all while remaining true to the source material is not only impossible but would probably frustrate and, ultimately, bore the average moviegoer. And that's who these films are ultimately made with in mind, with enough nods to TF tradition to appease the rabid fan base.

Apart from not remaining "true" to the franchise, the common criticism is the quality of the films - we're all familiar with the noted shortcomings by now. However, considering the premise of mechanical beings whose sole purpose pretty much is to wage war against each other(the one constant in the TF franchise), I find it hard to believe there's more that could have been done with this material than what has been done. Perhaps taking these movies in another direction might have worked; just as likely it would have failed and fizzled after 1 or 2 movies. Considering how popular these movies are with the general public, I'll argue the right choice was made.

[ZeroWolf]

You make a good argument, No Death For Prowl, especially with the bit about the general public. It seems that just as the collector's make up a minority in the toy market, the fandom are a minority in the movies as well. Putting things into perspective.

[Sub-Prime]

It's funny how this movie is considered the worst of the quartet yet it removed all of the crap people moaned about in the last 3 films. I think if Bay and Kruger was to quit it would still have people hating these movies. What might make Darkman happy in a Transformers movie he likes may not make someone else happy and the cycle will continue. Just like everybody say DK was the greatest movie ever yet I thought to myself folks didn't care that Batman himself sucked and he is supposed to be the star of his own movie. Also Joker was 50% himself. I felt Ledger and Nicholson was the 50 to the 50. One was more sadistic while the other was more funny and pranklike. So they both failed in my eyes. But that's just my opinion.

[Sub-Prime]

Also I realize a lot of people hate Bay's version of Optimus yet I find Bay's version the most realistic out of all of them.

Let's see here. G1 Prime was designed to be KID FRIENDLY and I enjoyed him like that as a kid. Folks were mad when he killed Sentinel. So what could he have done instead? Put him in a makeshift robot prison on Earth?

People also fail to realize that Transformers are a WARRING faction of two sides of militarize robots. What you expected? G1 style fights for freedom that always ends in "RETREAT"...Lol. Some people I tell ya...unrealistic! People also hated the fact that Optimus had more well rounded personality that felt more human like than ever before. People said he needed to be the strong pillar of strength and morality in the face of his own soldiers and himself being hunted down and killed ruthlessly. If he wasn't angry about these events I would have hated the movie big time as I felt that he wouldn't show a world of care for his robot familia. This movie to me had the best hero & villain story in all the 4 movies. I still can't see why folks like the last 3 more than AOE. It baffles me!

[Sabrblade]

Also I realize a lot of people hate Bay's version of Optimus yet I find Bay's version the most realistic out of all of them.

Let's see here. G1 Prime was designed to be KID FRIENDLY and I enjoyed him like that as a kid. Folks were mad when he killed Sentinel. So what could he have done instead? Put him in a makeshift robot prison on Earth?

Have Megatron kill Sentinel.

People also fail to realize that Transformers are a WARRING faction of two sides of militarize robots. What you expected? G1 style fights for freedom that always ends in "RETREAT"...Lol. Some people I tell ya...unrealistic!

Until the movies came out, the brand in all its incarnations treated the battles as more of a superhero style conflict rather than realistic warfare, and people were fine with that. It was a more uplifiting alternative to the more dreadful nature of real world wars and the turmoil and misery that accompany them. An element of escapist fantasy that tickled our imaginations rather than emphasized the graphic horrors of war.

People also hated the fact that Optimus had more well rounded personality that felt more human like than ever before.

The problem wasn't that he finally had a personality, but that it was such an ugly mean-spirited personality.

People said he needed to be the strong pillar of strength and morality in the face of his own soldiers and himself being hunted down and killed ruthlessly. If he wasn't angry about these events I would have hated the movie big time as I felt that he wouldn't show a world of care for his robot familia.

Being angry is fine. How one copes with and channels that anger is what matters.

This movie to me had the best hero & villain story in all the 4 movies. I still can't see why folks like the last 3 more than AOE. It baffles me!

I can see arguments for liking the first movie more, but the second was horrible and the third was miserable. The most arguments I've seen people have against this one is that it bored them more than anything.

[SKYWARPED_128]

Let's see here. G1 Prime was designed to be KID FRIENDLY and I enjoyed him like that as a kid. Folks were mad when he killed Sentinel. So what could he have done instead? Put him in a makeshift robot prison on Earth?

I actually find Optimus' hatred justifiable. It's his befuddling aloofness toward the fate of his own kind that leaves me scratching my head.

Right now, I'm going to step back from the "fanon" and treat this purely as characterization in a script for a movie.

Character movement is determined by several things, the most important of which, is motive. What Optimus consistently lacked in the first 3 movies was a motive you can empathize with--or rather, a motive I can personally empathize with.

It's hard to fully explain, but Optimus seems more like a puppet of the script meant to embody a set of virtues instead of being a life-like character. At the same time, the writer's subconscious instincts pull Optimus in an opposite direction; the logical direction he's supposed to be taking in the first place, if not for said set of virtues.

Why does he do what he does? Because he's the good guy? To me, that's not enough.

That's why Optimus seems to be suffering from bipolar disorder in the movies, as some have pointed out. He talks like Jesus but fights like Satan.

If Bay/Kruger/O&K wanted to turn Optimus into "Robo-Jesus", it can be done, but they'll first need to create more rapport between the Autobots, the general public and their human allies. Sam and Bee don't count because Bee isn't the one making those decisions--Optimus is. By "rapport", I mean sharing a moment talking and getting to know each other, like Optimus did with Cade. Had Optimus shared more scenes together with the NEST soldiers, you'd feel much more strongly about Optimus' need to sacrifice himself for them. As for humans in general, even a cheesy scene like a little girl handing a flower to Optimus would suffice.

As a viewer, you feel their connection, you feel Optimus is right to defend them as a friend. Optimus talking about protecting humanity in the first 3 films feels hollow, because "humanity" is faceless and doesn't evoke the same emotions in a viewer as the characters you see on film.

This is the reason why I liked AOE so much more than the first 3 movies. As a viewer, I empathize with Optimus and understand his desire to protect Cade. Because I as a viewer know him just like Optimus does.

TL;DR...actually, there is no TL;DR because it's too complex to put in a short sentence. Just read the whole thing.