The Energon Pub

[Shadowman]

8:Arcee is too big in bot mode or too little in AltMode.So much for killing g1 in order to address its flaws.Poor effort.

Yeah, that's actually been a problem for a while now. She's a bit smaller than jack in vehicle mode, and a bit smaller than Bumblebee in robot mode. Of course, Arcee is just a slightly more noticeable example. Megatron in G1 transformed into a pistol small enough for Starscream to handle. Soundwave turned into a realistically-sized tape deck at one point. Even as recently as War for Cybertron, if you pay attention, Megatron's tank mode is much larger than his robot mode. It's a recurring issue.

[G1 Smoketreader]

OOOPs! KNockout! Haha! StOOpid me.
Oh, well. I reserve the right to blame Hasbro for changing perfectly good g1,BW,Armada,etc identities, and confusing me.

Regading the jerk dying-I'm saying, if I was br..Knockout,I wouldn't hold back.I'm surprised the was allowed to survive by Knockout,not by the writers.I understand what the writers are doing (for once).

Regarding Mass displacement: Axor and Lockdown show that bots of a class needn't be of a height, but Arcee is overdoing it tragically.No reason why one of her two modes shouldn't be the guide for the mass of the other.Starscream is another miserable failure in this department.Don't want a female scout sizer?Fine,but if you're gonna include a scout sizer,include a proper scout sizer or make it obvious that the scout sizer Altmode accomodates more deluxe Bot.

I thought of Kicker as well when the racer kid was riding with Jack.

[Shadowman]

Regarding Mass displacement: Axor and Lockdown show that bots of a class needn't be of a height, but Arcee is overdoing it tragically.No reason why one of her two modes shouldn't be the guide for the mass of the other.Starscream is another miserable failure in this department.Don't want a female scout sizer?Fine,but if you're gonna include a scout sizer,include a proper scout sizer or make it obvious that the scout sizer Altmode accomodates more deluxe Bot.

All right, much of that doesn't make any sense. But in any case, Megatron and Soundwave are not only still the worst offenders, but also the first ones. They were two of the taller Decepticons, who could shrink small enough for a human to handle. Prowl is a more recent and very similar example. he turns into a crotch rocket like Arcee, but unlike Arcee, he's one of the taller Autobots. Arcee is at least much smaller than the rest of the Autobots.

[G1 Smoketreader]

Regarding Mass displacement: Axor and Lockdown show that bots of a class needn't be of a height, but Arcee is overdoing it tragically.No reason why one of her two modes shouldn't be the guide for the mass of the other.Starscream is another miserable failure in this department.Don't want a female scout sizer?Fine,but if you're gonna include a scout sizer,include a proper scout sizer or make it obvious that the scout sizer Altmode accomodates more deluxe Bot.

All right, much of that doesn't make any sense. But in any case, Megatron and Soundwave are not only still the worst offenders, but also the first ones. They were two of the taller Decepticons, who could shrink small enough for a human to handle. Prowl is a more recent and very similar example. he turns into a crotch rocket like Arcee, but unlike Arcee, he's one of the taller Autobots. Arcee is at least much smaller than the rest of the Autobots.

It's what you said.

There was the shrinking combiner as well-the camera guy(s).

Anyway, if Sierra gets to ride Jacks' club, does her girlfriend get to come along? I assume not.

Re: Kicker flashbacks: Still, Sierra would make a very nice antithesis to Miko, and the Racer kid would do same for Jack, with Raf then playing opposite to Agent Smithers or whatever his name is-the Jet pilot suit guy.

[Twitchythe3rd]

Regarding Mass displacement: Axor and Lockdown show that bots of a class needn't be of a height, but Arcee is overdoing it tragically.No reason why one of her two modes shouldn't be the guide for the mass of the other.Starscream is another miserable failure in this department.Don't want a female scout sizer?Fine,but if you're gonna include a scout sizer,include a proper scout sizer or make it obvious that the scout sizer Altmode accomodates more deluxe Bot.

Your applying toy size classes to a tv show? I don't think that really applies.

Like Shadowman said, blantant size changing has been a part of the mythos since the early days of G1. Arcee changing size between human-sized motorcycle and shorter-than-Bumblebee robot isn't something to be complained about.

[Janus Prime]

I like TF Prime, but I feel we´re still waiting for the good part to happen, you know? like we´ve done with almost every other tf show in it´s first season. I wonder if the writter are trying to stablish a status quo that will dramatically be change in the future.

[G1 Smoketreader]

Your applying toy size classes to a tv show? I don't think that really applies.

Like Shadowman said, blantant size changing has been a part of the mythos since the early days of G1. Arcee changing size between human-sized motorcycle and shorter-than-Bumblebee robot isn't something to be complained about.

Yes,you're right,Twitchythe3rd, but this is 2011.Tf-making Technology has advanced a great deal,as has telephone communication technology between departments.
The Axor and Lockdown toys NULLIFY the old practise of Bots of a size needing to be the same height, is what I'm saying,as has the death of G1 removed the reason for stupid sizing to be reinstalled into the Mythos, so I'm not entirely convinced Arcee needed such a dramatic mass shift in the existing state of TF design.

From existing working models (toys),the tech levels of which will only advance with time, they had customizable reasons (& working templates) to either explain or legitimately design why she gets so little or why she grows so big and ignored both.

But I'm talking about Arcees' two modes on screen, using toy line references just as measuring references.
Toys can be made in any class from Legion to Masterclass,so I don't mind about them:just that,due to the cramming capacities exhibited by Axor and Lockdown,(and also the folding away capacities exhibited in the legs of TF1 Longarm,Classics Onslaught and the Animated Ultra Magnus toys),the creators start to get somewhere with Arcee with legitimate modern day technical licence,then they're like "stuff it" and bomb it all out with blimp action.It's an eyesore to see and it's disappointing to have such a deliberately unrealistic detail disrupt attention during a show that is pretty much being appreciated for the level of 'not condescending' being put into it anyway.
And tho yes, it's a minor complaint of mine, it doesn't ruin my life, just interrupts the show for me in a spot that I consider unfortunately unnecessary.Attention disrupted to question events that don't gel can be prompted from anywhere but why from a frontline character who will transform every episode? Don't they get taught in storytelling school not to frag viewer appraisal with front row characters? It's illogical,unproffessional and unworthy.

(For anyone who wants to challenge me to do it better,which has been a routine response in the past: It's neither my Job nor my vested career path to do it better,or even to do it normally the first time.)

[SJ21]

The size change of Arcee doesn't bother me very much. Compared to the other bots, she has the smallest alt mode and the smallest robot mode. That's good enough for me.

After watching the scene when Jack can't understand Bumblebee, I realized how much this story-element bothers me. Explain it already. Why does he communicate like this? Why can certain bots and people understand him? I just assumed the audience couldn't understand and we were just supposed to figure out what Bee meant from everyone else's reactions. But then Jack says he doesn't speak "beep and boop" and now I'm confused.

Writers please get rid of this.

[Shadowman]

Yes,you're right,Twitchythe3rd, but this is 2011.Tf-making Technology has advanced a great deal,as has telephone communication technology between departments.
The Axor and Lockdown toys NULLIFY the old practise of Bots of a size needing to be the same height, is what I'm saying,as has the death of G1 removed the reason for stupid sizing to be reinstalled into the Mythos, so I'm not entirely convinced Arcee needed such a dramatic mass shift in the existing state of TF design.

What are you talking about? Axor and Lockdown? Are you trying to apply toy design to character design? Because it doesn't work that way.

From existing working models (toys),the tech levels of which will only advance with time, they had customizable reasons (& working templates) to either explain or legitimately design why she gets so little or why she grows so big and ignored both.

Because otherwise she'd be extremely tiny. I would say eight feet tall would be a fairly liberal estimate.

But I'm talking about Arcees' two modes on screen, using toy line references just as measuring references.

Seriously? It doesn't work that way. If they used toylines as a base, she'd either turn into a massive motorcycle or she'd be small enough to consider a mini-con.

Toys can be made in any class from Legion to Masterclass,

Those aren't TF toy sizes.

[G1 Smoketreader]

What are you talking about? Axor and Lockdown? Are you trying to apply toy design to character design? Because it doesn't work that way.


Because otherwise she'd be extremely tiny. I would say eight feet tall would be a fairly liberal estimate.


Seriously? It doesn't work that way. If they used toylines as a base, she'd either turn into a massive motorcycle or she'd be small enough to consider a mini-con.


Those aren't TF toy sizes.

1)Where the hell do you see me talking about character design? I'm talking about Arcees stupid size designed by two idiots who require everyone watching the show to pretend to be a dumbass so they can get paid for being succesful.Gimme a break,Shadow.

2)EVERYONE knows that, even the writers.My GRANDMOTHER knows that.

3)It works this way: Use MASS as a base.Or this way:Use Intellect as a base.
Or this way: Look at the WORKING MODELS in the toylines to design Arcees onscreen transformation.If she needs to either inflate or stow away,look amongst the toylines to find examples of Toys that can make her onscreen Transformation more realistic.Otherwise,change the Altmode.Is that so difficult to comprehend?

4)No worries.One is a sculpture and not a toy (God forbid!!) and the other is what, a line? A price point?

[Shadowman]

1)Where the hell do you see me talking about character design? I'm talking about Arcees stupid size designed by two idiots who require everyone watching the show to pretend to be a dumbass so they can get paid for being succesful.Gimme a break,Shadow.

This entire discussion is about Arcee's design. Arcee is a character. Hence, character design.

Second, I find it very cute you're criticizing the animators for this issue that every series suffers from. (Animated Prowl turning from a motorcycle about Arcee's size to one of the taller Autobots, WfC Megatron turning into a Tank that he could comfortably fit inside of, Frenzy turning into a cellphone several times smaller than his head, basically every piece of kibble in Beast Wars, Beast Machines in general, and, of course, G1 Megatron and Soundwave) Calling them "unprofessional" "idiots" "dumbasses," etc. etc. While at the same time ignoring every other instance of this occurring in every piece of the franchise.

3)It works this way: Use MASS as a base.Or this way:Use Intellect as a base.
Or this way: Look at the WORKING MODELS in the toylines to design Arcees onscreen transformation.If she needs to either inflate or stow away,look amongst the toylines to find examples of Toys that can make her onscreen Transformation more realistic.Otherwise,change the Altmode.Is that so difficult to comprehend?

The characters were designed before the toys. They can't take design elements that were A) Didn't exist at the time and B) based off of their own work anyway.

Second, it's pretty apparent they aren't going for realism in these designs.

[Lorekeeper]

Transformers are giant robots. Arcee needs to be bigger than the humans. For the sake of visual continuity, the robots should be in similar scale to one another. Even on life-action television shows, they often boost shorter actors and actresses on boxes so that they can be in-frame together with their huge colleagues and not look bizarre (or have the camera panned out too far.)

It's kind of nice that the cartoon-makers chose to show us some blatant mass(/volume)-shifting.

In the G1 cartoons, even the casettecons were larger than humans. At least Prime keeps the character models consistent in side, and not shifting from scene-to-scene. (CG helps control that, I'm sure.)

[G1 Smoketreader]

1)Where the hell do you see me talking about character design? I'm talking about Arcees stupid size designed by two idiots who require everyone watching the show to pretend to be a dumbass so they can get paid for being succesful.Gimme a break,Shadow.

This entire discussion is about Arcee's design. Arcee is a character. Hence, character design.

Second, I find it very cute you're criticizing the animators for this issue that every series suffers from. (Animated Prowl turning from a motorcycle about Arcee's size to one of the taller Autobots, WfC Megatron turning into a Tank that he could comfortably fit inside of, Frenzy turning into a cellphone several times smaller than his head, basically every piece of kibble in Beast Wars, Beast Machines in general, and, of course, G1 Megatron and Soundwave) Calling them "unprofessional" "idiots" "dumbasses," etc. etc. While at the same time ignoring every other instance of this occurring in every piece of the franchise.

3)It works this way: Use MASS as a base.Or this way:Use Intellect as a base.
Or this way: Look at the WORKING MODELS in the toylines to design Arcees onscreen transformation.If she needs to either inflate or stow away,look amongst the toylines to find examples of Toys that can make her onscreen Transformation more realistic.Otherwise,change the Altmode.Is that so difficult to comprehend?

The characters were designed before the toys. They can't take design elements that were A) Didn't exist at the time and B) based off of their own work anyway.

Second, it's pretty apparent they aren't going for realism in these designs.

....and how can anyone argue with that last line?

The Axor model perhaps didn't exist but the 2 Animated toys and the Classics toy surely did.

(My God, I'm in a debate where I'm supposed to both defend and justify my view of Arcees' mass to people who will readily criticize the same show for a different reason.Is this for real?.Is her mass displacement,like,a tribute to G1 that I have to worship or something?).
This is 2011.The mass displacement thing doesn't need to be an issue anymore.There were ways around it without the need for references to existing toys.Sheesh!

(I called us Dumbasses).

Can we talk about the Human sidekicks now or do I need more correctional education?

[Shadowman]

Can we talk about the Human sidekicks now or do I need more correctional education?

The second one.

....and how can anyone argue with that last line?

You can't. That's why I said it.

The Axor model perhaps didn't exist but the 2 Animated toys and the Classics toy surely did.

If they didn't use the toys as a base for character design in any other series, I doubt they'd start with Prime. Once again, I point you to War for Cybertron from last year which had even more mass shifting.

(My God, I'm in a debate where I'm supposed to both defend and justify my view of Arcees' mass to people who will readily criticize the same show for a different reason.Is this for real?.Is her mass displacement,like,a tribute to G1 that I have to worship or something?).

1. All criticisms are not created equal. Someone having a problem with the storytelling doesn't mean a complaint about a relatively mild case of mass shifting is any more valid.

This is 2011.

Just because it's 2011 doesn't mean all designs have to be realistic.

The mass displacement thing doesn't need to be an issue anymore.There were ways around it without the need for references to existing toys.Sheesh!

And no one has ever used these workarounds. The movies tried, but ultimately they succumbed to it as well. (Frenzy-phone!)

[G1 Smoketreader]

Can we talk about the Human sidekicks now or do I need more correctional education?

The second one.

Har har har.(Sarcastic, but smiling cuz somebody silent on another thread showed signs of life.I couldn't give a flywheel for Arcee right now).

So: the Racer Kid has an appreciation of what kind of car make up is superior and inferior,at least in racing which would make him a good sidekick for ..oops I mean protectee of Ratchet.
Tho it would drive Ratchet nuts and the kid is a lighter version of a jerk compared to the other Humans, they would ultimately make a good pairing if it ever happened (which I doubt) because the kid would criticize Ratchets choice of materials,resulting in a forced choce by Ratchet to end up using only the best.
(He makes a derogatory comment about BB to Jack just before Bee drives off, something like "Not with a panel car").

(What, you think I need your permission to speak? Dream on,Sunshine!)

[Twitchythe3rd]

So, anyone want to bet the Blackarachnia story from Animated is going to get re-used for Blackar.....I mean "Airachnid" in this weeks episode?

[Sabrblade]

The mass displacement thing doesn't need to be an issue anymore.

It's only an issue because you're making it be one. Not everyone is bothered by this factor, nor even cares about it (nor has to care about it). It's not as big a deal your making it out to be.

So: the Racer Kid

I see this term used repeatedly by such and such forum memebers here. Is Vince's name really that tricky to remember?

So, anyone want to bet the Blackarachnia story from Animated is going to get re-used for Blackar.....I mean "Airachnid" in this weeks episode?

I really hope not. If she's got a grudging history with Arcee, it better be something different from "You left me for dead, I mutated and joined the enemy, and now you're gonna pay!"

Whoa! Wait a sec! I just noticed that, aside from the whole mutation part, Animated Blackarachnia's backstory is almost the same as that of Armada Wheeljack.

[Lorekeeper]

(He makes a derogatory comment about BB to Jack just before Bee drives off, something like "Not with a panel car").

I thought he said "pedal car," like a little kid's car toy....

[G1 Smoketreader]

(He makes a derogatory comment about BB to Jack just before Bee drives off, something like "Not with a panel car").

I thought he said "pedal car," like a little kid's car toy....

Oh,okay.

[G1 Smoketreader]

The mass displacement thing doesn't need to be an issue anymore.

It's only an issue because you're making it be one. Not everyone is bothered by this factor, nor even cares about it (nor has to care about it). It's not as big a deal your making it out to be.

Not fair: It is an issue,just as much as nobody has to care about it or how they will handle it.

Plus,as far as I'm concerned, I wasn't making it a big deal,and for the record didn't set out to: The big deal that I was making is that some replies were effectively misinterpreting and misquoting what I had originally attempted to say.So I kept going back and re-enforcing my argument in order to avoid either telling people it's not what I'm talking about (because acknowledging what is being said to me is not arguing,whilst dismissing it is worse than arguing) or getting into a broader range of topics that will then need more posts to sort out and cause me to sit here taking up space on an officially public thread,which makes me feel like a public nuisance). The original post states they are just thoughts and I've been aware of the recurring issue as long as everyone else.To be honest I never expected replies at all,silly errors about Breakdown and Knockout aside.

Anyway, this has gone on too long for what was meant to be a comment in passing on a post I thought nobody finds interesting: I listed an observation.People indicated I shouldn't feel that strongly about something that is obviously going to remain the norm. I displayed reservations about how attitudes should have shifted by now.They did likewise regarding why attitude shifts on my part should suddenly become relevant after so long. Others feel I am not necessarily seeing things in their true light. As far as I'm concerned, a misinterpretation of what I wanted to express initially (No need for two mismatched mode sizes when one can justify the other vs. I said toys MUST be used for character design but nobody does that so how could I say such a thing when it doesn't work that way) led it all askew anyway,and in MY OPINION both sides of the argument are right in the expanded version as well as in the unexpanded one.

Should we not move on now? The subject has been done to death.

[Red 50]

So, anyone want to bet the Blackarachnia story from Animated is going to get re-used for Blackar.....I mean "Airachnid" in this weeks episode?

Highly possible.

[SJ21]

Twitchythe3rd wrote:So, anyone want to bet the Blackarachnia story from Animated is going to get re-used for Blackar.....I mean "Airachnid" in this weeks episode?



Highly possible.

Agreed. But I hope not.

I don't like it when beast modes show up in a show about alien robots using disguises to blend in with their surroundings. Are there any 20-foot tall spiders running around somewhere on Earth? Who are you fooling. It wouldn't be such a big deal, but "Prime" is really playing up the idea of the Transformers being secretive and hidden from humans.

[Twitchythe3rd]

Twitchythe3rd wrote:So, anyone want to bet the Blackarachnia story from Animated is going to get re-used for Blackar.....I mean "Airachnid" in this weeks episode?



Highly possible.

Agreed. But I hope not.

I don't like it when beast modes show up in a show about alien robots using disguises to blend in with their surroundings. Are there any 20-foot tall spiders running around somewhere on Earth? Who are you fooling. It wouldn't be such a big deal, but "Prime" is really playing up the idea of the Transformers being secretive and hidden from humans.

With the new promo, it's looking like Blackarachnia (it's basically her, i'm not going to use the actual name) is going to be yet another one-episode character. She might not die like Skyquake did, but I doubt she'll stick around after "Predatory". If she does, i'll be suprised.

[Red 50]

Twitchythe3rd wrote:So, anyone want to bet the Blackarachnia story from Animated is going to get re-used for Blackar.....I mean "Airachnid" in this weeks episode?



Highly possible.

Agreed. But I hope not.

I don't like it when beast modes show up in a show about alien robots using disguises to blend in with their surroundings. Are there any 20-foot tall spiders running around somewhere on Earth? Who are you fooling. It wouldn't be such a big deal, but "Prime" is really playing up the idea of the Transformers being secretive and hidden from humans.

With the new promo, it's looking like Blackarachnia (it's basically her, i'm not going to use the actual name) is going to be yet another one-episode character. She might not die like Skyquake did, but I doubt she'll stick around after "Predatory". If she does, i'll be suprised.

Well, it is Transformers: Prime (with the exeption of Breakdown and Knock Out)

[Shadowman]

From the look of the preview, it doesn't seem like Airachnid a Predator (hunts things as trophies) than with Blackarachnia. (Trying to find a way to purge her organic components) But what I'm more excited about is that we're finally getting an Arcee episode.