Twincast / Podcast Episode #228 "Afterthoughts"

Just started the podcast - thanks for taking the time and forum to just say what you did at the beginning. That was just classy. And appreciated.

Also, I’m throwing in a vote for the second part of the War for Cybertron saga to be called
Siege II: Even Siege-ier.

Movie Brawl could maybe be repurposed into a movie Guzzle(?)

Stargrave wrote:Siege II: Even Siege-ier.

One of my favorite descriptions of WWII happened in response to an article by David Frum. He posed the question: why hasn't WWI held a stronger grip on our collective historical consciousness?

A commenter replied: "Americans prefer the sequel: better villains, bigger explosions."

Oh I mean they’ve got to one up, what? This line? Oh, Siege? All these fan dreams come true? Next line’s likely going to go full Scanners style brain melt, I mean Powerdashers, Impactor, Rainmakers, Six Gun, Jetfire, Omega, G1 Refraktor. And this is part 1! I can’t imagine what’s around the corner for us.

Great episode! Just finished. You guys crack me up

I’m up to comic discussion, and Scotty is right, new series just sucks. I paid .99 cents an issue for 6 issues the other week, and I feel massively ripped off.


On Unicron, man, I see the love and hope you guys have for this, and I just don’t get it. Like, at all. Anyway, you’ve all asked for no dissent, so putting my fears of this aside, I will just say that for those of you who really want this, and can safely afford this, I hope you get it, and I hope it’s everything you want.

Long haul, again, Scotty said it best, SS is a better looking figure, but the original is a better toy.

Ironhidensh wrote:On Unicron, man, I see the love and hope you guys have for this, and I just don’t get it. Like, at all. Anyway, you’ve all asked for no dissent, so putting my fears of this aside, I will just say that for those of you who really want this, and can safely afford this, I hope you get it, and I hope it’s everything you want.

Thanks, but what don’t you get?

Healthy dissent is OK, but I can’t understand the “I hope it fails” crowd.

megatronus wrote:

Ironhidensh wrote:On Unicron, man, I see the love and hope you guys have for this, and I just don’t get it. Like, at all. Anyway, you’ve all asked for no dissent, so putting my fears of this aside, I will just say that for those of you who really want this, and can safely afford this, I hope you get it, and I hope it’s everything you want.

Thanks, but what don’t you get?

Healthy dissent is OK, but I can’t understand the “I hope it fails” crowd.

I think there’s been plenty of healthy and fair dissent there've definitely been fair criticisms. Like valid frustrations.

It’s the blind fail faily Failacon ‘negative just to try and show how clever I am with language’ attitude I find too annoying not to retort to. Sometimes I just can’t resheath my snark till it’s drawn troll blood. Human, guilty.

Stargrave wrote:

megatronus wrote:

Ironhidensh wrote:On Unicron, man, I see the love and hope you guys have for this, and I just don’t get it. Like, at all. Anyway, you’ve all asked for no dissent, so putting my fears of this aside, I will just say that for those of you who really want this, and can safely afford this, I hope you get it, and I hope it’s everything you want.

Thanks, but what don’t you get?

Healthy dissent is OK, but I can’t understand the “I hope it fails” crowd.

I think there’s been plenty of healthy and fair dissent there've definitely been fair criticisms. Like valid frustrations.

It’s the blind fail faily Failacon ‘negative just to try and show how clever I am with language’ attitude I find too annoying not to retort to. Sometimes I just can’t resheath my snark till it’s drawn troll blood. Human, guilty.

Right - I got into some fights on the main Unicron thread responding to just that (perceived) attitude.

There are things people can ding, like the payment plan (though I maintain you realistically had 10-12 weeks to figure out funds), or if you just aren’t a fan of the size or design (though I love those things). Contrary views can co-exist.

megatronus wrote:

Stargrave wrote:

megatronus wrote:

Ironhidensh wrote:On Unicron, man, I see the love and hope you guys have for this, and I just don’t get it. Like, at all. Anyway, you’ve all asked for no dissent, so putting my fears of this aside, I will just say that for those of you who really want this, and can safely afford this, I hope you get it, and I hope it’s everything you want.

Thanks, but what don’t you get?

Healthy dissent is OK, but I can’t understand the “I hope it fails” crowd.

I think there’s been plenty of healthy and fair dissent there've definitely been fair criticisms. Like valid frustrations.

It’s the blind fail faily Failacon ‘negative just to try and show how clever I am with language’ attitude I find too annoying not to retort to. Sometimes I just can’t resheath my snark till it’s drawn troll blood. Human, guilty.

Right - I got into some fights on the main Unicron thread responding to just that (perceived) attitude.

There are things people can ding, like the payment plan (though I maintain you realistically had 10-12 weeks to figure out funds), or if you just aren’t a fan of the size or design (though I love those things). Contrary views can co-exist.

Yeah, dissent is fine! Since things look bleak for it now, reasonable dissent is very good since that's info Hasbro can use as lessons if they try a TF Haslab project again.

I was just trying to be nice and gloss over calling out some of the really bad takes I've seen on it. Easy to dunk on some of it but choosing to move on

ScottyP wrote:Since things look bleak for it now

2456 it's gonna turn around any minute...

Damn, I am always so excited when i see movie related stuff on the agenda, and then it doesn't go over well. You guys just can't enjoy some of my favorite parts of the brand in the same way I can!

MPM Megs is amazing. I love the design personally. He is great.

IDW2019 is really boring, it needs some pep in the step.

I'm so sad about Unicron right now. There are way too many negative nancy's and people in the "I won't pay that, so it shouldn't happen" boat. It ticks me off soooooooooooooooooooo much.

Were you guys trying a new platform for this one with google hangouts going bye bye? There was a lot more background noise in this one to me. I could actually hear loud and audible typing and maybe wind?

Great show again!

megatronus wrote:but what don’t you get?

Why people think this is a good direction to take the fan oriented part of the franchise. I see this as Hasbro testing the waters to see is this is a viable avenue to mark up and then market collector focused items. To copy what I said in the other thread:

Kickstarters should be transparent. We should see exactly where our 600 dollars are going, not just take Hasbro at their word that this is what it costs. If they don't want to tell us, then they should just run it as a regular retail item.


Kickstarters are for start up companies. Mom and pop type setups, NOT for multi billion dollar international publicly traded mega corporations. Hasbro going this route is, to me, fishy as hell. This isn't how big business is done. I feel that they are testing the waters here for future retail. This is Hasbro's way, I fear, of making the toy equivalent of the video game 'pay to win' set ups.

Not because Hasbro is some "evil" entity, but because they are all about, and only about, making as much money as they possibly can. They simply would not do this without a grantee of a big payday. They board of directors/share holders would have the ass off all involved otherwise. That is the simple reality of how corporate business works.

Look, I've spent the last 20 years of my life working for, with, and around corporations. They simply do not do anything that they don't believe will payout, or increase profit. Its not being negative, its simply the reality of business in a free market.


Transparency of the costs involved would alleviate all of that worry, or at lease be honest.

Ironhidensh wrote:

megatronus wrote:but what don’t you get?

Why people think this is a good direction to take the fan oriented part of the franchise. I see this as Hasbro testing the waters to see is this is a viable avenue to mark up and then market collector focused items. To copy what I said in the other thread:

Kickstarters should be transparent. We should see exactly where our 600 dollars are going, not just take Hasbro at their word that this is what it costs. If they don't want to tell us, then they should just run it as a regular retail item.


Kickstarters are for start up companies. Mom and pop type setups, NOT for multi billion dollar international publicly traded mega corporations. Hasbro going this route is, to me, fishy as hell. This isn't how big business is done. I feel that they are testing the waters here for future retail. This is Hasbro's way, I fear, of making the toy equivalent of the video game 'pay to win' set ups.

Not because Hasbro is some "evil" entity, but because they are all about, and only about, making as much money as they possibly can. They simply would not do this without a grantee of a big payday. They board of directors/share holders would have the ass off all involved otherwise. That is the simple reality of how corporate business works.

Look, I've spent the last 20 years of my life working for, with, and around corporations. They simply do not do anything that they don't believe will payout, or increase profit. Its not being negative, its simply the reality of business in a free market.


Transparency of the costs involved would alleviate all of that worry, or at lease be honest.

I don't think anyone would argue that Hasbro isn't trying to turn a profit. That's the win-win proposition - we get things we like, they make money, and therefore continue to make things we like. Like you said, not evil - just simple.

But for the reasons you state - they're not a mom & pop shop, they're a multi-billion dollar corporation - I'm not sure why you expect them to run with crowdfunding on their own platform the way fledgling companies HAVE to run Kickstarter campaigns on that platform. This isn't Kickstarter.

I agree Hasbro is testing the waters for certain collector oriented products, but by all indications, this is a tool intended for prestige products that are otherwise too risky. People seem to fear that a lot of otherwise mainline-type collector products will find their way into the crowdfunding format, but given the amount of work that goes into these campaigns, that doesn't seem realistic to me. Besides - how often do you think they could come back to the same fandom well for another dip?

I guess in the end, I view this more as a retail product (if a collector-oriented one) that requires an up front commitment, rather than a crowdfunded product. I know it's semantic, but perhaps that's where our views diverge.

What I find kinda kooky is this costs about on average maybe 4 MPs. Most TF statues cost twice this much just check BBTS.

How much does an average 3rd party combiner cost? Most components push $100 then the torsos usually more right? I’m not trying to shirk products like these I’m just pointing out the cost is not that uncommon in the fandom and there has never been a piece this big, let alone that transforms.

I saw somewhere in an article it said something to the effect of “I hope Hasbro learns nobody will pay for a $500 Transformer” and I’m sorry but that’s naive and somebody talking with their head up their, you know. Because high ticket items are common and easy to find.

And I’ve got to say it at least once the barge was a barge a big piece of plastic that sits there like a lump of, you know. It doesn’t transform it’s not a character it’s not the grandest of antagonists in the fandom. I think it’s a huge price tag but it seems deserved.

Great episode, as always!

I am in fact the one guy who didn't have the Nitro Zeus mold until now, as the original came out during my collecting break and SS Thundercracker never did it for me, so getting KSI Boss to be my Nitro Zeus has been awesome for me, he's probably one of my favorite 3 SS figures now and possibly one of my favorite movie designs.

WW2 Hot Rod does actually have some remolding done, he's not just a new head repaint, but the only thing any of the new parts could possibly do to improve the mold would be giving more clearance under the roof thanks to the new shoulders. Still probably going to get it regardless though.

The ONLY way they could top Siege going forwards at this point would be to actually live up to Generations being a plural and throw in Beast Wars/Machines and more going forwards like you mentioned, I really hope they don't disappoint.

Also yes, Cheetor and Sky-Byte don't count for the reasons you gave plus Cyberverse's crappy articluation, but this upcoming Selects Hot Shot does because he isn't the Armada Bee-like design, he's the grown-up seen-some-slag final form from Cybertron and therefore no longer inherently a kid-appeal character.

Ironhidensh wrote:

megatronus wrote:but what don’t you get?

If they don't want to tell us, then they should just run it as a regular retail item.

Well thought out post but I'm gonna pick on this one point. I don't think any US retailer would buy enough of these for it to be worth it to them. Normally, Hasbro would see if they could sell those 8,000 units to someone like Walmart. I'm sure Walmart's toy buyers don't really want to (or did not want to) take a risk on buying inventory of this product, thus, it's on Haslab.

On actual costs, iirc the tooling cost alone on Metroplex was over $750k. If we assume Unicron's is at the very minimum double that, there's $1.5M, roughly a third of what they're trying to raise on Haslab. Then there's the R&D time already spent, marketing dollars, actual materials, more R&D time to get it ready for production, creating the packaging and likely some enormous, insanity level freight costs to distribute them. And tbey want to profit, so to me the price isn't unfair - but this is pure speculation so always possible that $575 is too greedy, likely we'll never know.

ScottyP wrote:

Ironhidensh wrote:

megatronus wrote:but what don’t you get?

If they don't want to tell us, then they should just run it as a regular retail item.

Well thought out post but I'm gonna pick on this one point. I don't think any US retailer would buy enough of these for it to be worth it to them. Normally, Hasbro would see if they could sell those 8,000 units to someone like Walmart. I'm sure Walmart's toy buyers don't really want to (or did not want to) take a risk on buying inventory of this product, thus, it's on Haslab.

On actual costs, iirc the tooling cost alone on Metroplex was over $750k. If we assume Unicron's is at the very minimum double that, there's $1.5M, roughly a third of what they're trying to raise on Haslab. Then there's the R&D time already spent, marketing dollars, actual materials, more R&D time to get it ready for production, creating the packaging and likely some enormous, insanity level freight costs to distribute them. And tbey want to profit, so to me the price isn't unfair - but this is pure speculation so always possible that $575 is too greedy, likely we'll never know.

Just going to go ahead and reiterate that Ironhidensh’s post was well thought out and appreciated.

ScottyP wrote:

Ironhidensh wrote:

megatronus wrote:but what don’t you get?

If they don't want to tell us, then they should just run it as a regular retail item.

Well thought out post but I'm gonna pick on this one point. I don't think any US retailer would buy enough of these for it to be worth it to them. Normally, Hasbro would see if they could sell those 8,000 units to someone like Walmart. I'm sure Walmart's toy buyers don't really want to (or did not want to) take a risk on buying inventory of this product, thus, it's on Haslab.

On actual costs, iirc the tooling cost alone on Metroplex was over $750k. If we assume Unicron's is at the very minimum double that, there's $1.5M, roughly a third of what they're trying to raise on Haslab. Then there's the R&D time already spent, marketing dollars, actual materials, more R&D time to get it ready for production, creating the packaging and likely some enormous, insanity level freight costs to distribute them. And tbey want to profit, so to me the price isn't unfair - but this is pure speculation so always possible that $575 is too greedy, likely we'll never know.

Strictly a thought excersice, you say Walmart wouldnt have wanted to take on 8K*$575, but what about someone like Diamond, who is already in thr Niche Collector Market?

Now, I say that, knowing that 95% of the could have been Diamond Orders are already in at Haslab, so maybe it wouldnt have gotten thr remaining whatever they need--5,000? But maybe it could have gotten Unicron out of an inarguably restricting platform?

Flashwave wrote::michaelbay:

ScottyP wrote:

Ironhidensh wrote:

megatronus wrote:but what don’t you get?

If they don't want to tell us, then they should just run it as a regular retail item.

Well thought out post but I'm gonna pick on this one point. I don't think any US retailer would buy enough of these for it to be worth it to them. Normally, Hasbro would see if they could sell those 8,000 units to someone like Walmart. I'm sure Walmart's toy buyers don't really want to (or did not want to) take a risk on buying inventory of this product, thus, it's on Haslab.

On actual costs, iirc the tooling cost alone on Metroplex was over $750k. If we assume Unicron's is at the very minimum double that, there's $1.5M, roughly a third of what they're trying to raise on Haslab. Then there's the R&D time already spent, marketing dollars, actual materials, more R&D time to get it ready for production, creating the packaging and likely some enormous, insanity level freight costs to distribute them. And tbey want to profit, so to me the price isn't unfair - but this is pure speculation so always possible that $575 is too greedy, likely we'll never know.

Strictly a thought excersice, you say Walmart wouldnt have wanted to take on 8K*$575, but what about someone like Diamond, who is already in thr Niche Collector Market?

Now, I say that, knowing that 95% of the could have been Diamond Orders are already in at Haslab, so maybe it wouldnt have gotten thr remaining whatever they need--5,000? But maybe it could have gotten Unicron out of an inarguably restricting platform?

I know I wasn't the one asked, but I wanted to jump on here on this point.

I think that if we start hitting that more niche selling market, like Diamond, I think we start seeing the prices like we do for Flame Toys or Prime-1 Figures. $400-$1000 for things that don't transform and are very posable. If Diamond were a distributor, they would buy less, so hasbro would have to make unicron more expensive and more in line with those higher end figures/statues.

so this sounds like trying to make Unicron more affordable and find a balance of demand to price