BotCon 2012 Update: Artist Alley Restrictions on Fan Art

I am not a lawyer, but my guess is that this is the legal strategy that Hasbro has been forced into. They have to take a zero-tolerance approach to all infringing works now, just to be able to effectively fight the third-party products. Even things which are effectively harmless, or may even benefit their bottom line, now have to be fought just so Hasbro has a documented history of fighting infringing works. You must protect your trademarks or lose them, in the legal world.

Third-party toys have brought this hammer down from Hasbro. Now, the rest of the fandom gets to suffer, as a result. Thanks, guys. Thanks a whole heap.

While it may be the "legal" thing to do, it doesn't sit well with me at all.

Really glad I didn't join the fan club now. Now I have the benifit of: not having my credit card info hacked, not having to pay full price for 1/3 of a botcon, and can still have my transformers my way. I have a colossus Devastator now thanks to third parties and have just watched quality control at hasbro decline in the prime series.

So I wonder how long it will take Hasbro to come after all the "infringement" going on here at seibertron.com?

Way to shoot yourselves in the feet, guys. Are you going to keep this up until I have to boycott buying anything from you at retail?

I would have thought the best way to fight the third-party toys is to actually compete with them.

Looks like Hasbro's ban-hammer just got bigger...

I can understand wanting to protect your property, IP, or whatnot, but to restrict fans enjoyment, creativity, enthusiasm, and fun at a convention for the fans is going a bit too far.

I can honestly say that this is one year that I'm glad not to be attending BotCon! My convention of choice this year is Savcon, at least they don't have a ginormous banhammer to thwart my fun!

FracturedKoi wrote:I can understand wanting to protect your property, IP, or whatnot, but to restrict fans enjoyment, creativity, enthusiasm, and fun at a convention for the fans is going a bit too far.

Why should Hasbro care if they don't get paid for said "fun"?

Uncommon wrote:I would have thought the best way to fight the third-party toys is to actually compete with them.

Well, this is easier. Trying to one-up against 3rd parties would be a losing battle. They got Hasbro's budget limits and QC beat with higher pricing and limited runs.

It's a little sad Hasbro/Fun Pub decided to stop being cool about it. Outside the MP line, (which Hasbro doesn't tap half as often as Takara) 3rd parties pretty much are the adult collector's line. Moreso really, because most stuff is tailored to join Classics shelves.

I can't say I see why they have to take an all or nothing approach.

Requiem Prime wrote:It's a little sad Hasbro/Fun Pub decided to stop being cool about it. Outside the MP line, (which Hasbro doesn't tap half as often as Takara) 3rd parties pretty much are the adult collector's line. Moreso really, because most stuff is tailored to join Classics shelves.

Unless they announce they're creating a TF Elite line or something to do just that.

Requiem Prime wrote:

Requiem Prime wrote:It's a little sad Hasbro/Fun Pub decided to stop being cool about it. Outside the MP line, (which Hasbro doesn't tap half as often as Takara) 3rd parties pretty much are the adult collector's line. Moreso really, because most stuff is tailored to join Classics shelves.

Unless they announce they're creating a TF Elite line or something to do just that.

I'd go for that.

Requiem Prime wrote:I can't say I see why they have to take an all or nothing approach.

Because many large corporations are run by inherently unimaginative people?

Just look at the recording industry.

I imagine Hasbro is particularly susceptible since they seem to want to transform themselves from being a toy company to being an intellectual property company since the manufacture of mass-market (see also: inexpensive) toys is rapidly becoming unsustainable due to labor and transportation costs continuing to spiral out of control.

I hope we can get a good, indepth explanation for this at BotCon.

Also, someone needs to ask Hasbro why they don't have an line aimed at the adult collector.

FracturedKoi wrote:I can understand wanting to protect your property, IP, or whatnot, but to restrict fans enjoyment, creativity, enthusiasm, and fun at a convention for the fans is going a bit too far.

You're not totally getting it. It's not the fan art itself that's banned, it's selling it. Giving it away should be perfectly fine, as long as the artist don't earn money from Hasbro's IP without a license. That includes paid commissions.

You know what bugs me?

Hasbro stomp on 3rd party, unlicensed or unofficial works because they receive no benefit (read: money) from the sale of such things. The other party is profiting from Hasbro's characters and established efforts.

So, how is selling second-hand toys any better? Hasbro don't see a cent from the thousands of dollars that changes hands for old toys - be it Armada, Beast Wars, a MISB Fort Max or Galaxy Shuttle. What is happening is the same, dealers are making money (sometimes, a LOT of money) from Hasbro's intellectual property.

So why allow it? What's the difference between a box of G1 figures, and a handpainted picture of a G1 character, say. Both will change hands for money. Hasbro will not receive any profit. Should toy dealers apply for licenses now, or be banned from selling?

AdamPrime wrote:You know what bugs me?

Hasbro stomp on 3rd party, unlicensed or unofficial works because they receive no benefit (read: money) from the sale of such things. The other party is profiting from Hasbro's characters and established efforts.

So, how is selling second-hand toys any better? Hasbro don't see a cent from the thousands of dollars that changes hands for old toys - be it Armada, Beast Wars, a MISB Fort Max or Galaxy Shuttle. What is happening is the same, dealers are making money (sometimes, a LOT of money) from Hasbro's intellectual property.

So why allow it? What's the difference between a box of G1 figures, and a handpainted picture of a G1 character, say. Both will change hands for money. Hasbro will not receive any profit. Should toy dealers apply for licenses now, or be banned from selling?

Totally different story. Hasbro already has your money (actually, the money from the store buying their stock) from way back when the 2nd hand toys were first bought. Do you see other companies suing stores that deal in 2nd hand items? No. It's basic economics with the supplier not being a company, but an individual, a middleman as it were. Perfectly legal, as the original product was still bought from Hasbro. If it was stolen along the way however, only then you'd have a problem.

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

AdamPrime wrote:You know what bugs me?

Hasbro stomp on 3rd party, unlicensed or unofficial works because they receive no benefit (read: money) from the sale of such things. The other party is profiting from Hasbro's characters and established efforts.

So, how is selling second-hand toys any better? Hasbro don't see a cent from the thousands of dollars that changes hands for old toys - be it Armada, Beast Wars, a MISB Fort Max or Galaxy Shuttle. What is happening is the same, dealers are making money (sometimes, a LOT of money) from Hasbro's intellectual property.

So why allow it? What's the difference between a box of G1 figures, and a handpainted picture of a G1 character, say. Both will change hands for money. Hasbro will not receive any profit. Should toy dealers apply for licenses now, or be banned from selling?

Totally different story. Hasbro already has your money (actually, the money from the store buying their stock) from way back when the 2nd hand toys were first bought. Do you see other companies suing stores that deal in 2nd hand items? No. It's basic economics with the supplier not being a company, but an individual, a middleman as it were. Perfectly legal.

Actually some game companies tried to stop people from re-selling their games. Some suggested making the games kind of a console bound. Meaning that once you put the game inside your console it is registered to that particular console only and basically you couldn't sell it forward. But I think that this didn't quite work. Don't remember all the details, but I guess it was against some laws and such.

So you might say that at least some big companies would try to change this thing if they could. Would hastak do the same? Hopefully we'll never know.

Well, this further proves that Hasbro is TRYING to alienate their fanbase.

This is ridiculous. Can you honestly tell me that fan artists are damaging their bottom line? No. If you try, then you're just drinking the kool aid and won't listen to reason.

Banning 3rd party stuff? Okay. I get it.
Banning the sales of fan art, after it was allowed for ALL these years? No. Sorry, I don't get it.

I think Hasbro's trying to crush Botcon. Make it unappealing, so they can focus on their multimedia and drop the toys and all...altogether.

Mark my words. There will be a day when TFs are a property and nothing else. No toys. Zip.

Dorkimus wrote:

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

AdamPrime wrote:You know what bugs me?

Hasbro stomp on 3rd party, unlicensed or unofficial works because they receive no benefit (read: money) from the sale of such things. The other party is profiting from Hasbro's characters and established efforts.

So, how is selling second-hand toys any better? Hasbro don't see a cent from the thousands of dollars that changes hands for old toys - be it Armada, Beast Wars, a MISB Fort Max or Galaxy Shuttle. What is happening is the same, dealers are making money (sometimes, a LOT of money) from Hasbro's intellectual property.

So why allow it? What's the difference between a box of G1 figures, and a handpainted picture of a G1 character, say. Both will change hands for money. Hasbro will not receive any profit. Should toy dealers apply for licenses now, or be banned from selling?

Totally different story. Hasbro already has your money (actually, the money from the store buying their stock) from way back when the 2nd hand toys were first bought. Do you see other companies suing stores that deal in 2nd hand items? No. It's basic economics with the supplier not being a company, but an individual, a middleman as it were. Perfectly legal.

Actually some game companies tried to stop people from re-selling their games. Some suggested making the games kind of a console bound. Meaning that once you put the game inside your console it is registered to that particular console only and basically you couldn't sell it forward. But I think that this didn't quite work. Don't remember all the details, but I guess it was against some laws and such.

Really? Never heard of that story.

My guess is that is to prevent software piracy, as I can imagine it's pretty easy to copy games onto a blank cartridge or disk if you have the right equipment. With us in the Netherlands we're pretty strict on software sales: exchange within 24 hours, or if it has a one-use activation code, no exchange at all.

well if their goal is to alienate people its working, they're going to lose a fair amount of people because of this and everything else they're pulling these days. Seems hasbros finally found their god complex.

So lame.

Question: how big is artist's alley at Botcon? How big will this affect the con?

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

Dorkimus wrote:

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

AdamPrime wrote:You know what bugs me?

Hasbro stomp on 3rd party, unlicensed or unofficial works because they receive no benefit (read: money) from the sale of such things. The other party is profiting from Hasbro's characters and established efforts.

So, how is selling second-hand toys any better? Hasbro don't see a cent from the thousands of dollars that changes hands for old toys - be it Armada, Beast Wars, a MISB Fort Max or Galaxy Shuttle. What is happening is the same, dealers are making money (sometimes, a LOT of money) from Hasbro's intellectual property.

So why allow it? What's the difference between a box of G1 figures, and a handpainted picture of a G1 character, say. Both will change hands for money. Hasbro will not receive any profit. Should toy dealers apply for licenses now, or be banned from selling?

Totally different story. Hasbro already has your money (actually, the money from the store buying their stock) from way back when the 2nd hand toys were first bought. Do you see other companies suing stores that deal in 2nd hand items? No. It's basic economics with the supplier not being a company, but an individual, a middleman as it were. Perfectly legal.

Actually some game companies tried to stop people from re-selling their games. Some suggested making the games kind of a console bound. Meaning that once you put the game inside your console it is registered to that particular console only and basically you couldn't sell it forward. But I think that this didn't quite work. Don't remember all the details, but I guess it was against some laws and such.

Really? Never heard of that story.

My guess is that is to prevent software piracy, as I can imagine it's pretty easy to copy games onto a blank cartridge or disk if you have the right equipment. With us in the Netherlands we're pretty strict on software sales: exchange within 24 hours, or if it has a one-use activation code, no exchange at all.

I actually have a couple of DS games like that. To activate the games online functionality it registered the game/console combination so I can never use that cartridge online in different console or with a different user account.

EA is leading the way for a total ban on all used game sales with the idea that every time someone buys a used game they lose a new copy sale
And I think it's Warner Bro's who is trying to do the same with movies

As a customizer who has spent roughly $300 on materials and 80+ hours on a Botcon custom entry, F**K You. I won't be bother bringing it. I'll ebay it, the same way I will get all of my future Botcon/Club exclusives. I'm done.

If you plan to protect Intellectual Properties includes chasing off your fanbase, it's working.

This was the logical next step. I didn't think I'd see it come to fruition this soon though.

Good thing cosplayers don't make any money or I'd be terrified of costuming. I'm almost happy I'm having trouble finding the time to finish brawl.... :S

Still, these actions show us where hasbro's focus is. The copyrights are their main focus, not much else....

It sounds to me like Botcon is eating itself. What was a fan con became a company convention and is now a corporate presentation that we are graciously allowed to pay to attend.

zodconvoy wrote:What was a fan con became a company convention and is now a corporate presentation that we are graciously allowed to pay to attend.

You hit the nail on the head.

metaphorge wrote:

zodconvoy wrote:What was a fan con became a company convention and is now a corporate presentation that we are graciously allowed to pay to attend.

You hit the nail on the head.

Hadn't that been the case since OTFCC 2003?

So what's going to be in Artist Alley? Three guys with some Mazinger fan art, one guy who really likes Go-Bots, and a tumbleweed?

zodconvoy wrote:It sounds to me like Botcon is eating itself. What was a fan con became a company convention and is now a corporate presentation that we are graciously allowed to pay to attend.

Yep. Maybe they ought to save themselves some money and just post pics of new products online. Who needs Funpub? OH WAIT. The profit they make from charging $300+ for 5 toys is probably still worth it to Hasbro.

So they're essentially also saying that hard-working artists shouldn't be paid for their work if it contains images of Hasbro property. Seems pretty BS to me. Why don't they compromise and require artists who wish to sell art purchase a one-time license for say $10 and they are permitted to sell their work for the duration of the 'Con. Hasbro gets their cut, everyone's (generally) happy. Y'know, instead of being dicks and outright banning it.

The Q&A is going to be hilarious this year.

guys/girls this is a toy company.....its "targeted" audience are children. it isn't very surprising they don't worry about their adult consumers. as long as kids go to stores and say mommy I want a transformer hasbro is happy. when they become unhappy they arnt going to worry about changeing things they are just going to move on........so yeah no more transformers.....

njb902 wrote:guys/girls this is a toy company.....its "targeted" audience are children. it isn't very surprising they don't worry about their adult consumers. as long as kids go to stores and say mommy I want a transformer hasbro is happy. when they become unhappy they arnt going to worry about changeing things they are just going to move on........so yeah no more transformers.....

The problem with this strategy (as I pointed out above) is it's rapidly becoming difficult to produce decent toys that can be sold inexpensivey, thus why Hasbro is trying to get out of the toy business....

Just watch, the next thing to fall victim will be the cosplay!

njb902 wrote:guys/girls this is a toy company.....its "targeted" audience are children. it isn't very surprising they don't worry about their adult consumers. as long as kids go to stores and say mommy I want a transformer hasbro is happy. when they become unhappy they arnt going to worry about changeing things they are just going to move on........so yeah no more transformers.....

A counter intuitive argument seeing as we are talking about a convention that no children can register for.

Anyone under the age of what? 18? has to be accompanied by an adult. A half Generation One themed boxed set.... for kids who weren't even alive for G1?

I'm more than a bit fed up with people making excuses for corporations taking foolish measures to protect their intellectual property against imagined threats. I'm a Transformers fan, not a Hasbro apologist.

If Hasbro wants fan loyalty they have to continue to earn it, especially since their entire business model rests heavily on exploiting parents' nostalgia for their own childhoods....

GetRightRobot wrote:

njb902 wrote:guys/girls this is a toy company.....its "targeted" audience are children. it isn't very surprising they don't worry about their adult consumers. as long as kids go to stores and say mommy I want a transformer hasbro is happy. when they become unhappy they arnt going to worry about changeing things they are just going to move on........so yeah no more transformers.....

A counter intuitive argument seeing as we are talking about a convention that no children can register for.

Anyone under the age of what? 18? has to be accompanied by an adult. A half Generation One themed boxed set.... for kids who weren't even alive for G1?

but hasbro didn't start botcon they juat co-opted it. they saw a way to make a quick buck and ran with it. also I apologize for getting off topic, I wasn't commenting on botcon so much as on hasbro.

GetRightRobot wrote:

njb902 wrote:guys/girls this is a toy company.....its "targeted" audience are children. it isn't very surprising they don't worry about their adult consumers. as long as kids go to stores and say mommy I want a transformer hasbro is happy. when they become unhappy they arnt going to worry about changeing things they are just going to move on........so yeah no more transformers.....

A counter intuitive argument seeing as we are talking about a convention that no children can register for.

Anyone under the age of what? 18? has to be accompanied by an adult. A half Generation One themed boxed set.... for kids who weren't even alive for G1?

This is truly a fan-thing indeed. This is arguably the ONLY place where our opinion truly counts.

RhA wrote:

GetRightRobot wrote:

njb902 wrote:guys/girls this is a toy company.....its "targeted" audience are children. it isn't very surprising they don't worry about their adult consumers. as long as kids go to stores and say mommy I want a transformer hasbro is happy. when they become unhappy they arnt going to worry about changeing things they are just going to move on........so yeah no more transformers.....

A counter intuitive argument seeing as we are talking about a convention that no children can register for.

Anyone under the age of what? 18? has to be accompanied by an adult. A half Generation One themed boxed set.... for kids who weren't even alive for G1?

This is truly a fan-thing indeed. This is arguably the ONLY place where our opinion truly counts.

....counted.

GetRightRobot wrote:

RhA wrote:

GetRightRobot wrote:

njb902 wrote:guys/girls this is a toy company.....its "targeted" audience are children. it isn't very surprising they don't worry about their adult consumers. as long as kids go to stores and say mommy I want a transformer hasbro is happy. when they become unhappy they arnt going to worry about changeing things they are just going to move on........so yeah no more transformers.....

A counter intuitive argument seeing as we are talking about a convention that no children can register for.

Anyone under the age of what? 18? has to be accompanied by an adult. A half Generation One themed boxed set.... for kids who weren't even alive for G1?

This is truly a fan-thing indeed. This is arguably the ONLY place where our opinion truly counts.

....counted.

The times they area changing.

RhA wrote:

GetRightRobot wrote:

njb902 wrote:guys/girls this is a toy company.....its "targeted" audience are children. it isn't very surprising they don't worry about their adult consumers. as long as kids go to stores and say mommy I want a transformer hasbro is happy. when they become unhappy they arnt going to worry about changeing things they are just going to move on........so yeah no more transformers.....

A counter intuitive argument seeing as we are talking about a convention that no children can register for.

Anyone under the age of what? 18? has to be accompanied by an adult. A half Generation One themed boxed set.... for kids who weren't even alive for G1?

This is truly a fan-thing indeed. This is arguably the ONLY place where our opinion truly counts.

Yeah, well it looks as though even our voice won't count there for much longer.

I'd sggest that any artsits out there who like to make money could take something they own the rights to, be it a small-press comic, prints of your own characters, or, if 2nd hand toys are okay, a bunch of cyberverse guys or something, and offer Free Sketches with the purchase of something Hasbro hasn't banned. Or, y'know, try to sell sketches of stuff they're not claiming ownership of. Original GoBots designs or something.

craggy wrote:I'd sggest that any artsits out there who like to make money could take something they own the rights to, be it a small-press comic, prints of your own characters, or, if 2nd hand toys are okay, a bunch of cyberverse guys or something, and offer Free Sketches with the purchase of something Hasbro hasn't banned. Or, y'know, try to sell sketches of stuff they're not claiming ownership of. Original GoBots designs or something.

..oooorrrrrrr, save a bunch of money by not paying their ridiculous admission costs and go to a FAN convention like TFCon, DairyCon, TFExpo, Auto Assembly, Roll out Roll Call. Instead of paying to get into a Corporate Function.

Okay, Hasbro has a right--I guess--to protect their intellectual property. I work in academia. I write papers. People use my ideas in my papers to make their own papers. I don't get money, but in my field, I get credited--they must cite me as their source. So I GET IP and wanting to be credited, even though in my case it has never fattened my wallet.

Here's the dumb thing, though: I can see their beef against direct competition: toys. I can't see their beef against fan art or fan crafts, because they're actually not LOSING any money. If they're not selling a competitive product, they are losing NOTHING.

Botcon is the big loser here, in both meanings of the word. I think they are stuck between a rock and a hard place, and honestly, I'm wondering if it's even worth it to go this year, and if I do go, I'm pretty sure I will NOT be attending future ones: the only reason I'd go is I've already sunk money into airfare, etc that's nonrefundable.

But to me, the dickest of dick moves, honestly, is that this is just breaking NOW. The fact that they're sending these letters out now to me is an admission that they're changing policy--in a sense, they are VIOLATING THE CONTRACT that they have made AA's sign, and pay for. If they'd announced all of this BEFORE registration, I assure you, my decision to attend or not would have been a NON decision, and I would have kept my money.

In short, breaking this with less than 30 days to go till Con time? When people have no choice to cancel their registrations? WRONG ANSWER.

HK, srsly.

GetRightRobot wrote:

craggy wrote:I'd sggest that any artsits out there who like to make money could take something they own the rights to, be it a small-press comic, prints of your own characters, or, if 2nd hand toys are okay, a bunch of cyberverse guys or something, and offer Free Sketches with the purchase of something Hasbro hasn't banned. Or, y'know, try to sell sketches of stuff they're not claiming ownership of. Original GoBots designs or something.

..oooorrrrrrr, save a bunch of money by not paying their ridiculous admission costs and go to a FAN convention like TFCon, DairyCon, TFExpo, Auto Assembly, Roll out Roll Call. Instead of paying to get into a Corporate Function.

So in short, you're calling a boycot on BotCon 2012?

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

GetRightRobot wrote:

craggy wrote:I'd sggest that any artsits out there who like to make money could take something they own the rights to, be it a small-press comic, prints of your own characters, or, if 2nd hand toys are okay, a bunch of cyberverse guys or something, and offer Free Sketches with the purchase of something Hasbro hasn't banned. Or, y'know, try to sell sketches of stuff they're not claiming ownership of. Original GoBots designs or something.

..oooorrrrrrr, save a bunch of money by not paying their ridiculous admission costs and go to a FAN convention like TFCon, DairyCon, TFExpo, Auto Assembly, Roll out Roll Call. Instead of paying to get into a Corporate Function.

So in short, you're calling a boycot on BotCon 2012?

All I'm saying is there are other gatherings of fans, that embrace the fandom as a whole, not just the parts that increase sales for Hasbro (HAS).

Personally, it seems shady that they've made this announcement AFTER I've payed for my non-refundable airfare. It's a personal decision.

GetRightRobot wrote:
Personally, it seems shady that they've made this announcement AFTER I've payed for my non-refundable airfare. It's a personal decision.

This. Exactly. This is the 'eff you, fans' that really gets to me.

HK, still crabby

hellkitty wrote:Here's the dumb thing, though: I can see their beef against direct competition: toys. I can't see their beef against fan art or fan crafts, because they're actually not LOSING any money. If they're not selling a competitive product, they are losing NOTHING.

I've got a feeling the likes of Aaron Archer and his fellow designers, the guys that often interact with the fans at these conventions, are sitting in their offices being held hostage by Hasbro Lawyers who are preparing a massive fight against 3rd party/KO companies and they need to cover ALL their bases before they can launch their assault.

They know what they're doing sucks, and will piss off a lot of fans, but they probably see it as the only thing they can do to protect their IP as a whole.

It'd be nice if they could give more clarification as to the why this is happening, but again, most likely a legal issue and they can't disclose.

I guess it's only inevitable that they'll be targeting kitbashers soon.

hellkitty wrote:

GetRightRobot wrote:
Personally, it seems shady that they've made this announcement AFTER I've payed for my non-refundable airfare. It's a personal decision.

This. Exactly. This is the 'eff you, fans' that really gets to me.

HK, still crabby

I'm going to BOO the S**T outa these people at the panels. Wanna join in?

hellkitty wrote:Here's the dumb thing, though: I can see their beef against direct competition: toys. I can't see their beef against fan art or fan crafts, because they're actually not LOSING any money. If they're not selling a competitive product, they are losing NOTHING.

allow me to play "unicron's lawyer" for a second...
But I'm pretty sure Hasbro can in some way claim to be losing money off Joe Bloggs drawing a nice picture of Starscream and selling it for $5. Hasbro sell a license to IDW to create comic books, which are essentially paper with pictures of transformers on them. I'd suspect, although haven't actually seen any lately, that IDW or a 3rd party have a license to create art prints and posters and stuff featuring the art from those comics, and I'm fairly certain there must be some company somewhere getting paid to produce posters featuring the movie renders of Prime and Bumblebee, that are clogging up space in stores across the land as we speak.

This sort of corporate BS isn't new. The Mouse recently hit an old man with a lawsuit because he was selling Ghost Rider prints. The man was Gary Friedrich who cannot be legally named as the creator of Ghost Rider, because Herr Disney got a court order to stop such identification being made. That's in an industry that publishes the names of the creators of the work (which is done on a work for hire contract, same as IDW's comics, or Takara's toy engineering) on the covers of the products. You think Hasbro, who very rarely identify or acknowledge their designers, are going to go any easier on people?

=P