Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18

Wednesday, April 18th, 2018 1:45AM CDT

Categories: Comic Book News, Reviews, Site Articles
Posted by: Va'al Views: 32,676

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A Prime is a Prime is a Prime
(Spoiler free-ish)

Synopsis
“The Falling,” Part 3: Onyx Prime sows the seeds of chaos and panic on Cybertron as he reveals dark secrets… but nothing will prepare Optimus Prime and his allies for Onyx’s darkest revelation!

“The Falling,” Interlude. All hope seems lost as Onyx Prime confronts Optimus—but why has Onyx returned? What’s his ultimate goal? Millions of years worth of mysteries are solved as the secret history of Onyx Prime is finally revealed!

and we're here to tell you

Story
If you read the synopsis section just above, you will notice that there are two of them rather than the single issue - that is because this week, and this review, has two issue of the Optimus Prime ongoing series being released by IDW Publishing. To avoid spoilers as much as possible, we decided to talk about both in the same text, and I am taking extra care to talk more about narrative and execution than plot specifically. Nothing different than usual, just a little more vagueness, if you'll bear with me.

yeah, pretty much

With that all said and out of the way, then: John Barber has decided to take a very different turn for The Falling. Weird, even. His writing hasn't shied away from time displacement and travel, black hole paradoxes, and the consequences of all of the above notions at play (just look at Syndromica and Dark Cybertron, or even Revolutionaries). But here, we reach a whole new level of temporal and narrative freedom - to varying degrees of success.

His words, not mine

In #17, the story continues, as the aftermath of Soundwave's actions in #16 is addressed and Onyx Primal gets more terrifying by the frame in his actions, words, and clear direction forward (which looks a lot like backwards). And it's a build-up that reverberates with a lot of the themes address in the series so far, with Aileron taking the narration spot and looking at the category of Primes and heroes from a vantage point, really.

which may or may not be sideways

Then we have a reveal. A big one. A narrative, time-shattering one, on the very last page. And issue #18 (aptly named Interlude) deals with this instead, charging the story being told in a way that is yes, entirely exposition, but exposition that is surprisingly well woven and doesn't feel like a pause too long or any kind of slog.

So where is the variation in the success I mention? General agreement on staff was that not everything landed immediately but, at the same time, risks were taken and the pay-off is yet fully to come with more of the arc to follow in the coming months. And the aspects played upon in these issues are not entirely out of nowhere, in Barber's repertoire and I'm very pleased with the editing assist of David Mariotte, keeping all things in check as Barber lets himself loose.

Art

In #17, Kei Zama and Josh Burcham are - I think - showing off their skills. We have a ridiculous range of emotive and dynamic in frame layouts, with interactions being silent as the overwhelming and overpowering presence of Onyx takes up most of the space. Things get out of hand, and space and colour are used to the best of their effects, with some truly incredible compositions and transformation sequences, too.

You Are (Not) Alone

In #18, Sara Pitre Durocher offers the general framework of the current events (opening and closing), along with colours by master of technicolour continuity Burcham - both of whom, together, maintain the stage in the same light and tone as the final act of the previous issue, and chillingly set up the Interlude story.

Livio Ramondelli has the main duties for the latter, and his style, once more, proves perfectly suited to the past, mythology infused Weird!Barber script. The Aligned continuity that once was part of another narrative universe definitely takes shape and form in his lines and colours, and the Primes of old can easily be identified in their rise and expansion - awingly so.

#Imperialism

There is little more that can be said about Tom B. Long's work on lettering for these books, but as Barber (and Mariotte) stick to their captioning and name tagging techniques, his fonts and placing don't skip a beat, and allow for the story - with a lot of exposition, as I said - to flow as organically as a twisted story as this one can.

The covers are multiple, and glorious, with the main ones taken care of by Zama and Burcham, including some clear lineart of Solus Prime from the former, and Casey Coller / Joana Lafuente for issue #17's B cover (in the style of its predecessors, as seen in our database, plus the #18 Megatronus variant from Livio Ramondelli (others also in database!). But the one featured in the thumbnail is Thomas Teyowisonte Deer's gorgeous take on the Autobot leader, the Arisen, and seemingly the pivot of the entire storyline.

Thoughts
Spoilerish ahead

As I said above, Barber has taken the weird, paradox route, and by doing so taking some really big risks that may not please a section of the readership (and unfortunately proving some clichés about comics narratives in general in the doing, too) - but, some of those risks are still not fully revealed, and where they may not work in these issues for now, two more chapters of The Falling are still due before the final arc. In the words of Onyx, this is indeed just the prelude to the finale, and we are bound to return to its topics and characters very very soon.

I still have doubts. On everything

The multiple art teams, with Burcham working as continuity lynchpin, do some wonders with what could've been an extremely, frustratingly confusing story, and the aftermath of Onyx's arrival is dealt with in perhaps the most personal and brutal way that this series has seen this far - also partly due to Aileron's perspective, and Soundwave's involvement. I do not believe we are seeing the entire truth, yet, but next month will confirm suspicions - and let me tell you, I am buzzing.

out of

Credit(s): IDW

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Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1953773)
Posted by ZeroWolf on April 18th, 2018 @ 2:13am CDT

An excellent review va'al, and it must have been hard reviewing both 17 and 18 together and fighting the urge to talk more about the bombshells of 18. I will ask this though, was there anything presented that you make will be important for unicron?

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1953776)
Posted by Bounti76 on April 18th, 2018 @ 2:59am CDT

Just read them both, and all I can think is. ...damn. I never thought I'd say this, but this is even more convoluted than the average issue of Lost Light. And I don't know if I mean that in a bad way or a good way.

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1953789)
Posted by Va'al on April 18th, 2018 @ 5:21am CDT

ZeroWolf wrote:An excellent review va'al, and it must have been hard reviewing both 17 and 18 together and fighting the urge to talk more about the bombshells of 18. I will ask this though, was there anything presented that you make will be important for unicron?

Thank you! It was less hard than I thought, given how the story is presented in #18.

As for the latter point: I actually don't. I think The Falling will lead to the Unicron event, but not in a direct manner. It'll use points that are being shown and developed here, perhaps, but nothing directly tied in, if that makes sense.

I may be entirely wrong, but that's what I think so far!

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1953792)
Posted by Randomhero on April 18th, 2018 @ 5:46am CDT

my jaw dropped. I haven’t been this surprised since the reveal at the end of shadowplay. Shockwave is my favorite character in every fiction so I’m bias but man...I’m extremely happh with where this is all going.

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1953811)
Posted by ScottyP on April 18th, 2018 @ 7:57am CDT

Bounti76 wrote:Just read them both, and all I can think is. ...damn. I never thought I'd say this, but this is even more convoluted than the average issue of Lost Light. And I don't know if I mean that in a bad way or a good way.

It took me a few days to process it, but I think I like it. It's somewhat based on assumption that everything is still not what it seems.

I do most definitely like it when Barber gets experimental, and this arc has been stuffed full of it so far.

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1953833)
Posted by Randomhero on April 18th, 2018 @ 9:22am CDT

If anyone hasn’t go to TFWIKI and read the article for number 18. It will make your head spin.

Barber told me on Twitter this is a story he’s been planting seeds in for over 4 years now and it insane.

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1953837)
Posted by ZeroWolf on April 18th, 2018 @ 9:40am CDT

At least he's been given the opportunity to reap that harvest.

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1953896)
Posted by Randomhero on April 18th, 2018 @ 2:09pm CDT

Just realized a few issues ago Bludgeon said his master was returning. Well...he did lol

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1953926)
Posted by AlphaBass on April 18th, 2018 @ 3:37pm CDT

Really enjoyed the review, Va'al.

I feel like this is the kind of mind-bending reveal that LL tried but failed to be able to do. I wasn't thinking of getting into OP, but after all this. I may have to change my mind.

Question - what issue is best to start from?

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1953945)
Posted by Daniel Adkins on April 18th, 2018 @ 4:57pm CDT

AlphaBass wrote:Really enjoyed the review, Va'al.

I feel like this is the kind of mind-bending reveal that LL tried but failed to be able to do. I wasn't thinking of getting into OP, but after all this. I may have to change my mind.

Question - what issue is best to start from?

I’ve been telling folks that they’re sleeping on Optimus Prime. This book has consistently blown LL out of the freaking water, and issues 17 and 18 are the perfect encapsulation of that.

As for the best place to start? I’d say read The Death of Optimus Prime, then go to Transformers: Robots in Disguise #1.

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1953949)
Posted by Sunstar on April 18th, 2018 @ 5:08pm CDT

Wow... Quite the bombshell.

Its gonna take a while to process this.

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1953963)
Posted by D-Maximal_Primal on April 18th, 2018 @ 6:01pm CDT

Wow, just wow.... I don't think I've ever been stunned as hard as I was here. I read that last part of 17, my jaw dropped, and I sat in silence for several minutes just staring into nowhere and thinking.

First off, that was an incredible job getting Shockwave in like that. And there was no clue even given this would happen, but then it did, and it makes complete logical sense. Everything about it fits, and it makes a great curveball that Barber does not use, but he killed it here.

It's awesome looking back at everything, and then you realize Shockwave basically did everything, he made the Cybertronian universe as it is. And this also makes him the oldest Cybertronian in this continuity behind only Kup, and probably the 2nd oldest Cybertronian ever between all the various continuities.

I find it kinda metal and cool and disturbing that Shockwave killed and then wore Onyx basically to set up Cybertronian history. And that everything he did helped his younger self with all of the ores and the Primes and everything. All of that, how he knew it, how Alpha Trion fit it and everything, it all works.

I also liked how we got a group shot of the Primes, and it included a bit of the Arisen. I really want to see where that goes.

I love Zama's Solus cover too. That may be my favorite cover of OP so far, it's marvelous.

Finally, If Shockwave had won the PotP pole, I wonder if they would have done this :lol:

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1954004)
Posted by AlphaBass on April 18th, 2018 @ 7:29pm CDT

Randomhero wrote:If anyone hasn’t go to TFWIKI and read the article for number 18. It will make your head spin.

Barber told me on Twitter this is a story he’s been planting seeds in for over 4 years now and it insane.

I know it may seem like a stretch, but reading the entry, it's insane how this all ties together, especially when you look at exactly what his ship is.

Combine that with the "in your face" hints - the single eye spaceship, Bumblebee being alive, him basically planting the Primes where he would put his ores - and Shockwave being alive is the kind of twist I can't help but applaud.

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1954013)
Posted by AlphaBass on April 18th, 2018 @ 8:10pm CDT

Also, I like how the wiki changed Shockwave's pic on his page from "IDW is mostly his fault" to "IDW is ENTIRELY his fault".

I LOL'd. Well done.

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1954072)
Posted by Va'al on April 19th, 2018 @ 3:09am CDT

My favourite Ratchet panel from Lost Light #17, which I felt was also commenting on Optimus Prime 17-18.

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1954082)
Posted by Randomhero on April 19th, 2018 @ 6:05am CDT

AlphaBass wrote:Really enjoyed the review, Va'al.

I feel like this is the kind of mind-bending reveal that LL tried but failed to be able to do. I wasn't thinking of getting into OP, but after all this. I may have to change my mind.

Question - what issue is best to start from?

FROM THE BEGINNING!

I dont care what anyone says “oh start at death of Optimus prime” “start here with this issue”

No read it all! It deserves it! You might not like one story or one series but so much got called back by James Roberts and John barber that the entire universe deserves to be looked at because as of now it’s now it’s finite so just take the time

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1954096)
Posted by ZeroWolf on April 19th, 2018 @ 7:19am CDT

Randomhero wrote:
AlphaBass wrote:Really enjoyed the review, Va'al.

I feel like this is the kind of mind-bending reveal that LL tried but failed to be able to do. I wasn't thinking of getting into OP, but after all this. I may have to change my mind.

Question - what issue is best to start from?

FROM THE BEGINNING!

I dont care what anyone says “oh start at death of Optimus prime” “start here with this issue”

No read it all! It deserves it! You might not like one story or one series but so much got called back by James Roberts and John barber that the entire universe deserves to be looked at because as of now it’s now it’s finite so just take the time

Very true, and there is routes available online and physical for those who wish to read everything this continuity offered

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1954111)
Posted by Randomhero on April 19th, 2018 @ 8:20am CDT

Read the cross overs too. I know plenty don’t like them but I do so let yourself be the judge of them. Only series I can say you can skip-not because it bad but it just doesn’t call back to anything- transformers vs avengers. Yes, spotlight ramjet is a sequel to it but I read ramjet first and didn’t have a problem or was confused.

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1954126)
Posted by AlphaBass on April 19th, 2018 @ 9:24am CDT

Randomhero wrote:Read the cross overs too. I know plenty don’t like them but I do so let yourself be the judge of them. Only series I can say you can skip-not because it bad but it just doesn’t call back to anything- transformers vs avengers. Yes, spotlight ramjet is a sequel to it but I read ramjet first and didn’t have a problem or was confused.

Thanks to both of you for the recommendations (and I also read someone suggest the Optimus Prime arc from DoOP to his return to now as a way of showing the consequences of his actions, which is brilliant stuff). I had been following since "Dark Cybertron" and got into MTMTE because of the interplay between characters (though tbh, "slaughterhouse" made me a full-on fan).

I'm not glad but kinda am that the series is being rebooted - if only because having that kind of payoff after years of setting up is the only way to go out.

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1954205)
Posted by snavej on April 19th, 2018 @ 2:08pm CDT

I wrote a fanfic several years ago where Shockwave briefly became a giant, super-powered, funny-shaped ship, only without the honking great eye giveaway. See TFArchive.com under snavej. :-?

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1954213)
Posted by ZeroWolf on April 19th, 2018 @ 2:24pm CDT

See now I'm curious what does Shockwave know about Unicron coming. Also I feel sorry for whatever writer comes next as this is the Shockwave story to end all Shockwave stories. Going to be very hard to top this

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1954214)
Posted by AllNewSuperRobot on April 19th, 2018 @ 2:26pm CDT

New writers do so all the time. It's how comics work!

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1954265)
Posted by D-Maximal_Primal on April 19th, 2018 @ 4:18pm CDT

Couple more comments to add.

Firstly, With the revelation that Shockwave basically wrote history, we can now look at him, Brainstorm, and Whirl as being the 3 guys who basically wrote IDW. Shockwave handled everything pre-civil war, basically, and a lot of things that happened during and after too. Brainstorm is the reason the universe and the war started as it did, and Whirl is the reason Megatron went to violence and started the war.

Who would ever have thought those 3 would be the ones to write history eh?

Secondly: Whatever Shockwave's involvement with Unicron, and it is apparent thanks to the Unicron #1 cover, I think we can almost call him the herald of Unicron, if he really does know of his existence and what is about to come and how he set things up for that coming.

Finally: these past 2 issues made it really hard to decide between Onyx and Solus for my new profile pic here. But Onyx fit my name so much better, and I love Zama's art of him, especially the face

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1954266)
Posted by AllNewSuperRobot on April 19th, 2018 @ 4:20pm CDT

and Whirl is the reason Megatron went to violence and started the war.

So MTMTE/LL retconned Megatron: Origin?

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1954267)
Posted by ZeroWolf on April 19th, 2018 @ 4:38pm CDT

so if true then I must admit, I would have never seen that coming, that being Shockwave as a hearld though unless it's actually the opposite and Shockwave being the logical being he is has actually orchestrated everything as it is to give the best chance of beating unicron...

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1954269)
Posted by D-Maximal_Primal on April 19th, 2018 @ 4:44pm CDT

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:
and Whirl is the reason Megatron went to violence and started the war.

So MTMTE/LL retconned Megatron: Origin?

No, MTMTE pre-dated Megatron: Origin. Whirl beat up Megatron after he was arrested for a bar fight he had no part in, but his friend at the time, Impactor, did. After being beat up, he started to think about how words were not enough, and then he was transferred to Luna 2, where then he killed his first bot and then started down his path.

ZeroWolf wrote:so if true then I must admit, I would have never seen that coming, that being Shockwave as a hearld though unless it's actually the opposite and Shockwave being the logical being he is has actually orchestrated everything as it is to give the best chance of beating unicron...

This is not a bad thought either

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1954274)
Posted by Randomhero on April 19th, 2018 @ 5:06pm CDT

Maybe it’s becuase I’ve loved IDW almost from the beginning but I look at the reboot and I say “nothing can trump some stuff that IDW reimagined”

Nothing will ever be better than the following:

Shockwave
Galvatron
Cyclonus
Megatron
The wreckers
Stracream
Bumblebee
Rodimus
Magnus/minimus ambus
Human/cybertronian relations
Most importantly the reason for the war!

I don’t want to go back to the status quo that autobots are the good guys and the Decepticon are the bad guys who want galactic domination.

I don’t want a megatron that is evil because he’s evil. That’s nothing fresh and original. I don’t want shockwave to be megatron’s buttler and just hangs around on Cybertron. I don’t want Starscream to always betray megatron and never learn.

We got that stuff for 21 years before IDW decided to go Marvel ultimate universe and reimagine everything.

I guess things that could be improved on is probably Optimus. No fiction has managed to beat the original cartoon Optimus prime. He was heroic, charismatic, a true hero. While that may be generic it’s iconic in so many ways.

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1954277)
Posted by Randomhero on April 19th, 2018 @ 5:11pm CDT

ZeroWolf wrote:so if true then I must admit, I would have never seen that coming, that being Shockwave as a hearld though unless it's actually the opposite and Shockwave being the logical being he is has actually orchestrated everything as it is to give the best chance of beating unicron...

Shockwave ain’t no herald of unicron. He’s back to unify Cybertron. He’s here to try and save everyone or what he thinks is saving them. He shows up as onyx with a cure to the tainted energon. Everything he just revealed in 18 was to ensure Cybertron and everyone is what history says.

Remember this is a guy who was almost destroyed the space/time continuum to preserve Cybertron and make it the only thing in the universe.

He’s not working for Unicron

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1954284)
Posted by AlphaBass on April 19th, 2018 @ 6:22pm CDT

So he's seen the future, seen what is likely to happen, and is looking to unite everyone against Uni.

The brain-bending thing is wondering how Dark Cybertron would have played out had he not been stopped.

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1954407)
Posted by Randomhero on April 20th, 2018 @ 7:29am CDT

AlphaBass wrote:So he's seen the future, seen what is likely to happen, and is looking to unite everyone against Uni.

The brain-bending thing is wondering how Dark Cybertron would have played out had he not been stopped.

That’s the fun thing. It never was suppose to succeed! Shockwave created the entire dark Cybertron prophecy knowing it would fail and pretty much unite everyone and the colonies. The real question is was dark Cybertron event the actual prophecy or is it actually unicron that is really the prophecy? All the way back in RID issue 10 Optimus was flung to the future and witnessed the planet he was on in all red and the ground being pulled up with Jhiaxus telling him “you don’t know what real chaos is”

That’s a plot thread still dangling. Something I thought was forgotten becuase I always believed dark Cybertron wasnt always planned and it wasn’t. James and John didn’t come up with dark Cybertron till mid 2012 when they met up with Hasbro to create the event and Syndromica part 1(issue 6) was already out and part 2(issue 10) would have already been produced or was in production. It’s always been my theory John was planning some big event maybe with unicron back in RID before they went with DC and retconned some stuff from the Syndromica story but there still are some threads left from that story. Mainly the time remote Optimus took from Jhiaxus. He still has it! It didn’t play a role in DC. Maybe it’s got a role to play with him getting tossed into the singularity.

Shockwave didn’t do that to get rid of Optimus. He did it to enlighten him.

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1954451)
Posted by ZeroWolf on April 20th, 2018 @ 11:58am CDT

So he's the true saviour of this continuity, a misunderstood character...yeah it's going to be hard for any future writer to top this Shockwave

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1954457)
Posted by Randomhero on April 20th, 2018 @ 12:13pm CDT

ZeroWolf wrote:So he's the true saviour of this continuity, a misunderstood character...yeah it's going to be hard for any future writer to top this Shockwave

I think it’s going to be hard to top most of IDW. They broke almost every rule and remade everything. Where do you go? Back to them crashing on earth and waking up in 1984? Again?

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1954575)
Posted by AlphaBass on April 20th, 2018 @ 6:21pm CDT

Randomhero wrote:
ZeroWolf wrote:So he's the true saviour of this continuity, a misunderstood character...yeah it's going to be hard for any future writer to top this Shockwave

I think it’s going to be hard to top most of IDW. They broke almost every rule and remade everything. Where do you go? Back to them crashing on earth and waking up in 1984? Again?

No one is topping Shockwave. Even if Marvel or someone else gets the license, MTMTE/RID has the multi-layered continuity that will be hard to replicate.

Actually, I do not envy who comes after because they'll be required to perform great almost immediately and won't have the luxury of world building that IDW had. A lot of what makes this stuff awesome are the callbacks and shades of grey.

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1954654)
Posted by ZeroWolf on April 21st, 2018 @ 2:50am CDT

AlphaBass wrote:
Randomhero wrote:
ZeroWolf wrote:So he's the true saviour of this continuity, a misunderstood character...yeah it's going to be hard for any future writer to top this Shockwave

I think it’s going to be hard to top most of IDW. They broke almost every rule and remade everything. Where do you go? Back to them crashing on earth and waking up in 1984? Again?

No one is topping Shockwave. Even if Marvel or someone else gets the license, MTMTE/RID has the multi-layered continuity that will be hard to replicate.

Actually, I do not envy who comes after because they'll be required to perform great almost immediately and won't have the luxury of world building that IDW had. A lot of what makes this stuff awesome are the callbacks and shades of grey.

Oh definitely, in fact the new releases will be judged a lot harsher, especially by the different tribes that have formed ("not as good as marvel g1" "not as good as marvel UK g1" "nor as good as dreamwave" "not as good as furman idw" "not as good as pre-doop idw" "not as good as IDW") in one sense I think it would be good for the writers to throw caution to the wind and just let the creative jucices flow but I fear they are going to play it safe and just try to replicate what made g1 successful (and tie it into what hasbro are doing to boot, essentially getting the comic of the toy line which could work...)

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1954679)
Posted by Randomhero on April 21st, 2018 @ 6:03am CDT

That’s a sad thing about reboots in general nowadays. The big thing now is “play it safe”

Force awakens is a shining example of that. Play it safe and just remake A New Hope. That’s really why I didn’t like force awakens but that’s not what this is about. Just an example.

I will say this. I will do two things.

1. I will go in fresh and unbiased and give the reboot a shot and not try and compare it to this universe.

2. I’ll wait a year and pick up the trades and binge the first year and go monthly

That’s what I did with the first year of IDW becuase I wasn’t 100% sold right at the start. I waited till escalation ended grabbed infiltration, stormbringer, escalation and vol 1 and 2 of the spotlights and and then started going monthly. I read a couple here and there but wasn’t picking it up every month.

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1954724)
Posted by AllNewSuperRobot on April 21st, 2018 @ 11:05am CDT

D-Maximal_Primal wrote:
AllNewSuperRobot wrote:
and Whirl is the reason Megatron went to violence and started the war.

So MTMTE/LL retconned Megatron: Origin?

No, MTMTE pre-dated Megatron: Origin. Whirl beat up Megatron after he was arrested for a bar fight he had no part in, but his friend at the time, Impactor, did. After being beat up, he started to think about how words were not enough, and then he was transferred to Luna 2, where then he killed his first bot and then started down his path.

That is retconning Origin. He was just a miner and the death of.. Nameless prompted him to strike back and started him down his path. Even his first kill is explicitly stated in Origin!

You know, the kill that was the basis for This Cover:

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1954769)
Posted by ZeroWolf on April 21st, 2018 @ 12:53pm CDT

Retcons are a part and parcel of comic books, especially for long running series. I can live with these as they don't dramatically affect things too much. It's not like they retconned the whole thing to say that he was actually a used car salesman who decided one day that he wanted control. They wanted to look at megatron in a new light but there wasnt too many openings in origins they could use so they went before it.

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1954776)
Posted by AllNewSuperRobot on April 21st, 2018 @ 1:08pm CDT

ZeroWolf wrote:Retcons are a part and parcel of comic books, especially for long running series. I can live with these as they don't dramatically affect things too much. It's not like they retconned the whole thing to say that he was actually a used car salesman who decided one day that he wanted control. They wanted to look at megatron in a new light but there wasnt too many openings in origins they could use so they went before it.

I've said this before, but having followed comics for two-ish decades, IDWverse is not old enough to warrant any retcon.

If there is some obscure fact from 25 years ago that conflicts with a current story, that can be justified retcon. Megatron Origin is barely 11 years old and still readily available. Not some lost tome that needed a modern redux due to it's rarity.
It speaks more to the ability and/or lack thereof, among the IDW writers for such a thing to be employed. For nothing more than to justify the "early adventures" of their roster in the already documented dawn of IDWverse.

I assume no such retcon of Prime has taken place either? Otherwise uproar would have been noted already.

A good writer would find enough wiggle room within the characterisation of the Origin story to tell their own tale, without lazily resorting to retcon. As shown in the many decades of comic stories featuring Magneto, Dr. Doom, Joker, Darkseid etc

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1955168)
Posted by Randomhero on April 22nd, 2018 @ 4:20pm CDT

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:
ZeroWolf wrote:Retcons are a part and parcel of comic books, especially for long running series. I can live with these as they don't dramatically affect things too much. It's not like they retconned the whole thing to say that he was actually a used car salesman who decided one day that he wanted control. They wanted to look at megatron in a new light but there wasnt too many openings in origins they could use so they went before it.

I've said this before, but having followed comics for two-ish decades, IDWverse is not old enough to warrant any retcon.

If there is some obscure fact from 25 years ago that conflicts with a current story, that can be justified retcon. Megatron Origin is barely 11 years old and still readily available. Not some lost tome that needed a modern redux due to it's rarity.
It speaks more to the ability and/or lack thereof, among the IDW writers for such a thing to be employed. For nothing more than to justify the "early adventures" of their roster in the already documented dawn of IDWverse.

I assume no such retcon of Prime has taken place either? Otherwise uproar would have been noted already.

A good writer would find enough wiggle room within the characterisation of the Origin story to tell their own tale, without lazily resorting to retcon. As shown in the many decades of comic stories featuring Magneto, Dr. Doom, Joker, Darkseid etc

well retconning means just fixing stuff really. Megatron Origins had some issues that needed retconning. Between issues one and two Megatron went from freaking out he took a life to straight up killing combatants in the arenas. MTMTE/Costa Ongoing showed flashbacks of Megatron before megatron origins who didnt believe in violence as an answer but things done to him started seeding anger in him. Things like Whirl beating him and trying to kill him in jail andTerminus telling him violence is necessary.

another thing retconned was Milne putting female cybertronians around in Megatron Origins when there shouldnt have been thanks to Alex Milne just drawing background characters for no good reason. LL retconned that some cybertronains came home and changed their gender by choice. thats a retcon.

Barber has been retconning problems since he started writing Transformers. They brought him on movie comics and all he did was write stories to fix the movies. Did a damn good job too.

John has also been retconning the IDW-verse since he started RID. The problem with two different reflector groups, Prowls constant personality changes, some of the real wonky stuff from the -ation era.

Its small stuff that later comics decided to fix problems fans pointed out and the current writers wanted to change.

Theres a lot of stuff thats also been retconned not due to error but by choice to make a story. Things like Project Regenesis, Headmasters, the Prime lineage, Prowl, Combiners, the infiltration protocols, etc.

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1955173)
Posted by ZeroWolf on April 22nd, 2018 @ 4:47pm CDT

Ah so it was Barber that tried to fix the movies, shame that bay and the writing team never read them.

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1955178)
Posted by Randomhero on April 22nd, 2018 @ 4:57pm CDT

ZeroWolf wrote:Ah so it was Barber that tried to fix the movies, shame that bay and the writing team never read them.

he did it after Dark of the Moon but before Age of Extcintion. that was when he came on as Editor and writer to RID.

he fixed so much stuff that was in the scripts that went into the comics that were omitted and cut form the final cut of the films.

things like Barricades constant disappearances and a big one like the Fallen being in a sarcophagus in every fiction but the movie. for that he explained that Thundercracker took one of the Spacebridge pilers from the ark and brought it to the nemesis and it broke the Fallen out of his prison. Chris Mowry and Furman who wrote all the comics for the first two movies and their sequels said they were so confused when the saw Revenge of the Fallen because a lot of the stuff in the script that was important and put in the comics wasnt in the movie.

Stuff like that!

he literally took all the errors and continuity problems and fixed it all. just a shame no one read the movie comics. the comics are actually good and went off the final scripts, its the awful editing michael Bay was doing at the zero hour of the movies that caused some stuff.

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1955186)
Posted by ZeroWolf on April 22nd, 2018 @ 5:23pm CDT

Hopefully whoever takes over the movies can do a better job with them

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1955228)
Posted by Deadput on April 22nd, 2018 @ 8:01pm CDT

Randomhero wrote: Force awakens is a shining example of that. Play it safe and just remake A New Hope. That’s really why I didn’t like force awakens but that’s not what this is about. Just an example.

People bring this fact up all the time but you know...

what were they supposed to do?

After the whole Prequel drama people wanted a return to original roots Star Wars, they had to play it safe they couldn't risk the big return of Star Wars with a gamble.

It could of been executed slightly better but the Force Awakens was overall more good then bad.

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1955234)
Posted by Deadput on April 22nd, 2018 @ 8:06pm CDT

I like (Read hate) how people act like they know what the reboot is going to be like just because their way to attached to IDW.

I think this is the right time to have a reboot, long running series only ever have one fate...to decline and end up being mediocre: Lost light is an example of this.

Best to let IDW end on as much of a high note as it can and start over fresh with a hopefully well thought out path for the comics. (If we want to be simple think about how the Marvel movies had all been planned out for awhile and not made as they go) because comics suffer when they have dozens of different visions clashing over each other of which vision will take the spotlight for an amount of time.

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1955259)
Posted by AlphaBass on April 22nd, 2018 @ 9:02pm CDT

Deadput wrote:
Randomhero wrote: Force awakens is a shining example of that. Play it safe and just remake A New Hope. That’s really why I didn’t like force awakens but that’s not what this is about. Just an example.
People bring this fact up all the time but you know...

what were they supposed to do?

After the whole Prequel drama people wanted a return to original roots Star Wars, they had to play it safe they couldn't risk the big return of Star Wars with a gamble.

It could of been executed slightly better but the Force Awakens was overall more good then bad.

Legit Q: how popular were Eps 1-3 when they came out? I understand not changing what works (2nd or 1dt high ed st grossing movie ever in the US, so they're not hurting too badly), but I feel like they could have dropped a steaming turd in the movie and debated its composition for 2 hours and it would still make money.

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1955293)
Posted by Deadput on April 22nd, 2018 @ 10:31pm CDT

AlphaBass wrote:Legit Q: how popular were Eps 1-3 when they came out? I understand not changing what works (2nd or 1dt high ed st grossing movie ever in the US, so they're not hurting too badly), but I feel like they could have dropped a steaming turd in the movie and debated its composition for 2 hours and it would still make money.

From my understanding the prequel movies weren't liked that well when they came out. Honestly the Force Awakens had a far more positive reaction when that movie first came out.

Sure they made money but so did the sequel films, or just like the first 4 (and the 5'th to a small extent) live action Transformer films, making money isn't the only thing that the movie has to do.

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1955346)
Posted by Randomhero on April 23rd, 2018 @ 1:30am CDT

Funny thing I just found out. I know the theory that Onyx/Shockwave’s giant eyeball ship the Nemesis is Unicron’s eyeball but it’s actually this:

That’s the Nemesis from Beast Wars II

Maybe that’s been mentioned but I just found that out.

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1955349)
Posted by Randomhero on April 23rd, 2018 @ 1:36am CDT

Deadput wrote:
Randomhero wrote: Force awakens is a shining example of that. Play it safe and just remake A New Hope. That’s really why I didn’t like force awakens but that’s not what this is about. Just an example.
People bring this fact up all the time but you know...

what were they supposed to do?

After the whole Prequel drama people wanted a return to original roots Star Wars, they had to play it safe they couldn't risk the big return of Star Wars with a gamble.

It could of been executed slightly better but the Force Awakens was overall more good then bad.

I think the the idea of reviving Star Wars and the creative team behind it and bringing back the original cast would have been enough to have faith in the movie. Say what you want about the prequels but at least they didn’t copy a previous story. Look at all 8 now, all 1-6 all original stories, then 7 is a remake of 4 and then 8 is original so it’s an odd anomaly now a Star Wars movie that is a copy of a previous one. It sticks out.

AGAIN! Only brought it up as an example of playing it safe! Doesn’t need to be deviated in to a discussion. Lol

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1955368)
Posted by AllNewSuperRobot on April 23rd, 2018 @ 3:11am CDT

Randomhero wrote:well retconning means just fixing stuff really.

Absolutely not. What Retcon means is a Writer that is either lacking in ability and/or too lazy to build on their own work, leeches off of someone else's.
It's the comic book equivalent of plagiarism.

Randomhero wrote: Megatron Origins had some issues that needed retconning. Between issues one and two Megatron went from freaking out he took a life to straight up killing combatants in the arenas.

How is that a plot hole? When it is clear as day, time passed between those events. Also, as many fail to appreciate, Transformers are not humans. They are sentient Alien Robots that live for millions of years. They wouldn't think like us, nor how we process and deal with information.

Randomhero wrote:MTMTE/Costa Ongoing showed flashbacks of Megatron before megatron origins who didnt believe in violence as an answer but things done to him started seeding anger in him. Things like Whirl beating him and trying to kill him in jail and Terminus telling him violence is necessary.

How this is coming across to me, is the old classic trope "But You Were There, and You" - When a character tells a story or has a dream of a completely unrelated event in which people he already knows fill in for the roles of the story.

He was member of an oppressed underclass that, being pushed too far, pushed back. That was plainly stated on the page within Origin. It was relateable, which is all it needed to be.

Randomhero wrote:another thing retconned was Milne putting female cybertronians around in Megatron Origins when there shouldn't have been thanks to Alex Milne just drawing background characters for no good reason. LL retconned that some cybertronains came home and changed their gender by choice. thats a retcon.

Not a very clever one either. Kind of also contradicts Spotlight: Arcee and even some of the Costa stuff that used her afterwards. How she was subconscious recognised by fellow Cybertronians as something "Other". It was an interesting concept that should have been explored, not swept under the rug, due to laziness.

Randomhero wrote:John has also been retconning the IDW-verse since he started RID. The problem with two different reflector groups, Prowls constant personality changes, some of the real wonky stuff from the -ation era.

The Reflector stuff was already worked out with Spotlight: Wheelie. Which was set at an indeterminate time and place IE it was pretty obvious that's where the Reflector trio met their end, just not "when" in relation to the ongoing narrative. Didn't need a retcon, just the fill in gap to be covered.

Prowl is Autobot Shockwave. That's all you ever need to bear in mind to explain his behaviour. the best single issue to sum up Prowl is his AHM Coda (the only good thing to come out of AHM).

The "wonky" -Ations stuff (whatever that is) is most likely because they didn't let Furman finish it.

Randomhero wrote:the current writers wanted to change.

That's what it all comes down to. There was nothing noble or altruistic about it. Which is fine, if your series is EG Batman that's been running since the 1930's. Incredibly hard to legitimately justify if your continuity is little over a decade old.

Re: Double Review of IDW Transformers Optimus Prime #17 & #18 (1955370)
Posted by ZeroWolf on April 23rd, 2018 @ 3:37am CDT

The new 52 want to say hi. How long did dc run with that before they flash pointed it and then converged it before doing it again a year later with Rebirth?

We're going to have to agree to disagree though on our feelings on retcons, for me it comes down to which I liked more, the old information or the new information. For example I like the stuff that was added to negation and I'm okay with the deeper exploration into his mind before he became genocidal. I liked him as well reflecting on it. I know you feel differently about it and that's fine, there comes a point were we accept that not always can we get someone else to look at things the way we do.

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