One year later, All Hail Megatron comes to an end

I really enjoyed AHM, i was really looking forward to it. Although i began to miss the Furman "tion" series. they did some things in AHM to try and tie them together but i felt it was loosely done. do i think Furman got the shaft when he was asked to step aside for something new while he was in the middle of HIS story??......yea. but AHM was new and i liked that. Im just even more eagerly awaiting whats goin to happen next in the IDW transformer'verse

Good post! I'll be watching this thread, as I've fallen behind in my Transformers trade paperback collecting and I'm curious if it's worth catching up (combination of economy and the relatively negative fan feedback to the series).

All Hail Megatron has been a complete and utter failure. I had hoped that Shane would get somewhere, but those dreams had died around issue #9, and frankly they never recovered. And don't get me started on his Gary Stu. Don't forget, folks. Those next four issues don't "expand" the story. Their single solitary purpouse is to go out of their way to fix the problems Shane created when crafting his so called "story".

Thank Primus it's over. I hope this is the last we ever see of Shane McCArthy until he takes a writing class. While he is good with characterization moments, he fails to make those moments relevant to the story. Hell, he fails to make the story relevant. Nothing happened at all in the first six issues, just the Autobots moping around and the Decepticons senselessly vandalizing Earth. And sometimes just New York, sometimes they were destroying other parts of the world, he couldn't even retain consistency with himself.

He overdid it on the spread pages, as well. Pacing was a nightmare... for a fifty dollar story, I feel like I only got thirty dollars' worth of content. There was only one moment that genuinely surprised me--Dropshot's attack--and even that doesn't make sense. (Why attack the military now?)

The only reason we're getting four more issues is to fill in the gaps left behind McCarthy's mess. DB nailed it right on the head with his Gary Stu Drift... but even worse, McCarthy said he had a reason for bringing that caharcter in, but all he's done is stand around with that disgusting smirk while Cliffjumper and Kup admired him.

I tried to like these comics when they started. I gave them a fair chance because I'm no worshiper of Furman and I'm all for bringing new blood into the writer's pool. All Hail Megatron, however, was a senseless failure and a step in the wrong direction.

Apparently, no one that posted these horrible remarks about this story listened to the HOUR LONG interview that was made available a few weeks ago. AHM has been great. This TransFan is VERY anxious to see how they end this arc and what they are going to do to follow it up. I will proudly stand up for this series and the ambitious direction that Shane McCarthy has decided to take things. I will also say that I totally dug Simon Furman's work and look forward to seeing more.

We should just be glad that a quality Transformers comic series exists, that a highly reputable company publishes it, and that genuine fans are in charge of it. These people have been doing their best to give Transformers the truly EPIC sense of scale that the old Marvel stories attempted at but never quite reached. We have(in most cases) SPECTACULAR art that does the characters justice, and we have stories that explain some of the weirdest(and most nonsensical) parts of the Transformers Mythos.

I say to all the Nay-Sayers and Haters: HATE ON! The Numbers don't lie; the Series has been successful. It seems that Logic would dictate: If you don't like it, you shouldn't read it! But of course, if you stop buying it then there won't be ANY Transformers comics and then you'll be really satisfied, won't you?

...But, everyone's entitled to their own opinion. I, for one, will keep buying WHATEVER Transformers Comics there are as long as they keep putting them out. Period.

AHM was most definitely a great story. Mature, unpredictable, Dramatic... I don't know what more people could ask for.

Ultra Magnus wrote:#-o

Apparently, no one that posted these horrible remarks about this story listened to the HOUR LONG interview that was made available a few weeks ago. AHM has been great. This TransFan is VERY anxious to see how they end this arc and what they are going to do to follow it up. I will proudly stand up for this series and the ambitious direction that Shane McCarthy has decided to take things. I will also say that I totally dug Simon Furman's work and look forward to seeing more.

We should just be glad that a quality Transformers comic series exists, that a highly reputable company publishes it, and that genuine fans are in charge of it. These people have been doing their best to give Transformers the truly EPIC sense of scale that the old Marvel stories attempted at but never quite reached. We have(in most cases) SPECTACULAR art that does the characters justice, and we have stories that explain some of the weirdest(and most nonsensical) parts of the Transformers Mythos.

I say to all the Nay-Sayers and Haters: HATE ON! The Numbers don't lie; the Series has been successful. It seems that Logic would dictate: If you don't like it, you shouldn't read it! But of course, if you stop buying it then there won't be ANY Transformers comics and then you'll be really satisfied, won't you?

...But, everyone's entitled to their own opinion. I, for one, will keep buying WHATEVER Transformers Comics there are as long as they keep putting them out. Period.

AHM was most definitely a great story. Mature, unpredictable, Dramatic... I don't know what more people could ask for.

all i can say is AMEN! fans are way too hard on this storyline. ok, to some it may not be perfect but what comic continuity is??!!?? my god what are you comparing it to???? i read almost ALL transformer comic series because im a fiend and i fail to see the epic failure is i keep reading about. no it wasnt what idw/furman was initially was goin for but that doesnt make it horrible. give me ANY transverse comic series and i can pick its flaws as well. If anything we saw some AMAZING Guido work and a DIFFERENT story premise. ive enjoyed Shanes attempt and I look forward to seeing whats next

Starscream6 wrote:

Ultra Magnus wrote:#-o

Apparently, no one that posted these horrible remarks about this story listened to the HOUR LONG interview that was made available a few weeks ago. AHM has been great. This TransFan is VERY anxious to see how they end this arc and what they are going to do to follow it up. I will proudly stand up for this series and the ambitious direction that Shane McCarthy has decided to take things. I will also say that I totally dug Simon Furman's work and look forward to seeing more.

We should just be glad that a quality Transformers comic series exists, that a highly reputable company publishes it, and that genuine fans are in charge of it. These people have been doing their best to give Transformers the truly EPIC sense of scale that the old Marvel stories attempted at but never quite reached. We have(in most cases) SPECTACULAR art that does the characters justice, and we have stories that explain some of the weirdest(and most nonsensical) parts of the Transformers Mythos.

I say to all the Nay-Sayers and Haters: HATE ON! The Numbers don't lie; the Series has been successful. It seems that Logic would dictate: If you don't like it, you shouldn't read it! But of course, if you stop buying it then there won't be ANY Transformers comics and then you'll be really satisfied, won't you?

...But, everyone's entitled to their own opinion. I, for one, will keep buying WHATEVER Transformers Comics there are as long as they keep putting them out. Period.

AHM was most definitely a great story. Mature, unpredictable, Dramatic... I don't know what more people could ask for.

all i can say is AMEN! fans are way too hard on this storyline. ok, to some it may not be perfect but what comic continuity is??!!?? my god what are you comparing it to???? i read almost ALL transformer comic series because im a fiend and i fail to see the epic failure is i keep reading about. no it wasnt what idw/furman was initially was goin for but that doesnt make it horrible. give me ANY transverse comic series and i can pick its flaws as well. If anything we saw some AMAZING Guido work and a DIFFERENT story premise. ive enjoyed Shanes attempt and I look forward to seeing whats next

Quality, mature, success, story and no plotholes in a post regarding AHM?

The only good thing about AHM was the art and that's it.
And these are the sales figures for the comics:
http://tfarchive.com/comics/idw/sales.php

Yea AHM was more successful then the previous stuff

It Is Him wrote:Good post! I'll be watching this thread, as I've fallen behind in my Transformers trade paperback collecting and I'm curious if it's worth catching up (combination of economy and the relatively negative fan feedback to the series).

I'm in the same boat. I never purchased the Volume 1 TPB which contained the first six issues—mostly because I heard nothing happens. Volume 2 will be out in late Sept; then I'll decide whether or not this series is worth it for me.

Dead Metal wrote:The only good thing about AHM was the art and that's it.

...and if nothing else, I may purchase it for this reason.

Absolutely completely totally and utterly hated it. Tried to give it a chance. Even listened to that entire interview posted the other day. Have had a standing subscription to Transformers since the days of Furman and the UK comic. All Hail Megatron has been the first time I've seriously considered dropping the subscription (and I stayed subscribed back when the UK comic went fricking black and white!). I buy the comics, I buy the trades and I even buy the big hardback Premiere Editions. I've loved Transformers in all its previous incarnations. Some of them have been a bit rubbish - but what drove me nuts about All Hail Megatron was that up until that point there seemed to be something amazing going on with the current Transformers comic. Rich storytelling of a sort that you rarely see in comics - comparable to Warren Ellis' Transmetropolitan or Gaiman's Sandman. Then AHM came along and took a nuanced and complex storyline and reduced it back to being a comic book about kids toys.

I'll give the comic another six months. If this is truly the way forward for Transformers in comic form, good luck to Chris Ryall and Shane McCarthy. If they take Transformers to new heights by taking away the complexity and nuance - good for them. For a little while at least, before Shane McCarthy came along, it was something more than a comic book about kids toys.

Orin_Thomas wrote: Rich storytelling of a sort that you rarely see in comics - comparable to Warren Ellis' Transmetropolitan or Gaiman's Sandman. Then AHM came along and took a nuanced and complex storyline and reduced it back to being a comic book about kids toys.

Complexity and nuance? Comparing it to Gaiman's Sandman?

Transformers has never been in their league. Not ever. It's a trash comic that's amusing to read for action sequences and light sci-fi, but it's not that good.

Complexity? Certainly. But nuance? It had all the subtlety of a freight train with alliteration written all over it in blood.

I've personally been luke warm with AHM - initial issues made me groan, later issues looked promising, and then it dips again. Subtle background character interaction in the artwork is nice, though it ultimate fails to elaborate on this within dialogue and story, rendering it useless.

Bring on the Nick Roche. He wrote easily the best issue IDW have put out so far.

Ultra Magnus wrote:I say to all the Nay-Sayers and Haters: HATE ON! The Numbers don't lie; the Series has been successful. It seems that Logic would dictate: If you don't like it, you shouldn't read it! But of course, if you stop buying it then there won't be ANY Transformers comics and then you'll be really satisfied, won't you?

Star Wars: Episode 1 made something in the realm of $430 million during its theatrical run. Yet many people, fans and critics alike, consider it to be a weak movie. Just because something makes a lot of money doesn't mean it's successful. Most movies that make #1 at the box office aren't able to maintain it, simply because they're not popular enough to be successful.

What an interesting year.

We have the franchise moving in three directions. Two of which, AHM and RoTF, being poorly executed cluster-f***s, log jamming G1 references down our throat succeed, and the innovative refreshing take and direction gets cancelled.

Quite literally disenfranchising.

Primus C-00 wrote:What an interesting year.

We have the franchise moving in three directions. Two of which, AHM and RoTF, being poorly executed cluster-f***s, log jamming G1 references down our throat succeed, and the innovative refreshing take and direction gets cancelled.

Quite literally disenfranchising.

Animated was "innovative and refreshing" the way the Black Eyed Peas make innovative and refreshing music.

I'll take 2 1/2 of Michael Bay over 30 something episodes of Jay Leno chins, the worst version of Optimus Prime ever along with Spongebob and Patrick Star playing the roles of Transformers.

MYoung23 wrote:I'll take... the worst version of Optimus Prime ever along with Spongebob and Patrick Star playing the roles of Transformers.

You'll like RotF then.

Primus C-00 wrote:

MYoung23 wrote:I'll take... the worst version of Optimus Prime ever along with Spongebob and Patrick Star playing the roles of Transformers.

You'll like RotF then.

LMAO.

I don't think you could have put that any better.

As for AHM, I'm still trying to catch up. But I liked what I read. The movements of the Decepticons were pretty slow, but it was cool to see a story where the Decepticons had "won" and some of the atypical characterizations of certain characters like Perceptor. (Also, the "George Peppard"-like Kup was funny to see...)

ROTF. It's bad enough that the worst Transformers-related media since Beast Machines got the greenlight for a sequel, but 2 1/2 hours of a typical Michael Bay film that more or less could have taken the Transformers out and still have been the same film is just ridiculous. And it's true. No matter what you think of the designs, those movies have the worst characterization of Optimus Prime ever. For some reason, Prime using "Decepticon"-style tactics to fight his enemies without (some kind of) context doesn't strike me as particularly "Prime".

I'm sad to see Animated go; it just might have been the best animated Transformers show since Victory as far as storytelling went... and that's before you get to all the cool voice acting. It was enough to trump the weird character designs, because everything else about that show made a lot of sense.

Thanks Primus it will end... (and even more thanks if Shane McCarthy will be put into a corner to write movie critics instead of ruining any more transformers stuff)

Bad dialogues, unnecessary human storyline, worse dialogues, characters turned upside down, even worse speeches and weak turns in the story... I wonder if any writer can repair the hole that was punched in the IDWverse with the hastened end of Revelation and the ruin that is AHM.

Opinion:
http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/d/df/AllHailGrimlock.jpg

Really, I didn't know so many didn't like the series, but I like it. Maybe I should go re-read the series again. Sometimes I don't remember the plot-holes. I sure like how Starscream and Megatron, were talking to each other. I like how different the Decepticons were in the series, like ThunderCracker, you saw what tormented him, etc. (I hope ThunderCracker isn't dead The new ones will fill those plot holes so I'm happy for more.

I enjoyed AHM for the most part. I think it was slow in the middle but picked up considerably at the end. I have some mixed feelings on the very end but thats pretty much where it was all leading to.

As for people complaining about the lack of originality or how it destroyed the Furmanverse, I think you need to take a closer look at those comics. Furman is recycling the same things he always uses, Matrix (good and evil), Galvatron, Scorponok and Grimlock. These are the things he ALWAYS uses. Now the only hints at the next series is Galvatron returning, AGAIN.

And don't peg me as a Furman hater. I loved his work at Marvel and the War Within stuff. Maximum Dinobots was very good, although the art left something to be desired. I am just tired of seeing magical powers and godlike beings thrust into EVERY Transformer story. I just want to see them at war for awhile without Unicrons, Matrixs, Evil Primes or Dead Universes. That is what AHM gave me and I was glad for it.

Dead Metal wrote:
And these are the sales figures for the comics:
http://tfarchive.com/comics/idw/sales.php

Yea AHM was more successful then the previous stuff

Yeah, actually it was. Take an actual closer look at that list, purely the G1 stuff, excluding movie adaptions, reprints and BW comics.

Infiltration started off really big, as to be expected with the launch of a new series. Its last issue pulled 25,000, pretty respectable. From there we went to Stormbringer, which lost readers rapidly, finishing with 17,500. We could chalk this up to it being radically different from Infiltration, although I recall most people demanding an all TF only book like Stormbringer.

The wheels really started to come off in Escalation which started at 20,000 and ended at around 14,500. Interestingly enough this is where the first seeds of the Dead Universe and Nemesis Prime were placed in the -ation series.

Then we have Megatron: Origin, another sort of one off miniseries. It pretty much maintained the audience Escalation ended with at areound 14,000.

Then we moved to Devastation which saw another decline, hovering in the 13,000s.

The decline becomes brutal when we move to the Revelations Spotlights. Perhaps you can blame it on poor advertising, a rushed storyline or what have you, but the sales numbers are brutal, never breaking 11,000. Its a decline that is evident throughout the whole Spotlight line.

Then we have Maximum Dinobots which never broke into the 5 digit mark. Thats definitely not good.

The AHM starts up and, for the first time, an IDW TF comic manages to bring in a greater audience than its predecessor series and hold it, hovering in the 11,000-12,000 range. That is a makred improvement from the Spotlights, Revelations and Maximum Dinobots. So yes actually, AHM was more successful than its predecessors.

The line needed a shot in the arm and some new blood and thats what AHM delivered. Was it perfect? Hardly. I'd definitely say it could have been told in 8-10 issues as the middle became very thin and a bit dull. All in all though it was a solid series that I think breathed some new life into the entire line.

Devastron wrote:The AHM starts up and, for the first time, an IDW TF comic manages to bring in a greater audience than its predecessor series and hold it, hovering in the 11,000-12,000 range. That is a makred improvement from the Spotlights, Revelations and Maximum Dinobots. So yes actually, AHM was more successful than its predecessors.

I don't buy that at all. Revelation did "poorly" because the Spotlights have always sold consistently in the 9-10K range, and many comic outlets were unaware that it was supposed to be the continuation of the -ations instead of just four more "normal" spotlights. (In fact, many readers had a hard time knowing that!) And Maximum Dinobots sufferered from distribution problems for the first few issues, coupled with the same lack of clear advertising as Revelation. Additionally, AHM followed pretty much the same curve as Devastation: starting out around 15K and dropping to 11-12K.

All signs to me seem to show that what actually happened is that 11-12K is simply the baseline market for TF G1 comics at the moment, and the -ations continuing as planned probably would have sold in exactly the same range. AHM didn't increase sales at all, it just continued the same sales IDW had already been getting, thus trashing a good continuity for no net result whatsoever.

Which brings me to my thoughts on AHM, which I might as well just port over from ongoing convos I've been having on another TF forum:

***

I mean, let me put it this way. I'm a new TF fan myself. I came in from the '07 movie, so I had no nostalgia or love of Furman or anything that already existed.

I loved the -ations, because after watching the G1 cartoon and reading the Marvel comics and finding them both rather cheesy and 80s (the former in a fun way, the latter in a not-so-fun way), and having been burned by the confusingness and... comic-booky-ness of trying to get into the usual ongoings of other comic companies, I was very pleasantly surprised by the -ations.

They took what I thought sounded like an interesting fictional verse and were handling it in a thoughtful, mature way that I hadn't come across in the other series/continuities yet that I tried after the Movie. The backlog of issues was managable, the plotline coherent and well-thought-out, the setting intriguing, the character reinventions interesting.

And with a lot of unique elements as well: the Infiltration protocols, the Autobots' different attitudes towards humanity, the presence of two major Earth organizations as more factions in the fight, the importance of disguise and political intrigue, the Dead Universe and the hints at a different origin for the TFs, the Matrix not being important, the start of the Great War being due to a revolution, lots of interestingly reinvented characters, Starscream and Megatron having a different dynamic, etc. While it still wasn't a fully "serious" scifi take on the TFverse, it's as close as we've gotten so far.

But very little of AHM feels unique to me. Not only does it actively undo almost all of the new stuff that the -ations added, it recycles both plots that have been done before in TF, and cliches from the genre in general. It feels like the G1 cartoon made "darker and edgier", with the same mindless action, cartoonish artwork, and cliche, disjointed storytelling. But it lacks the light-heartedness that made the cartoon enjoyable despite its flaws. If AHM had been what I'd first read of IDW's TF comics, I would have dismissed it as stereotypical superhero comic book pablum, just with giant robots, and given it a pass.

***

I can think of a great number of ways that the overall premise could have been done better and also tied in more strongly to the existing storyline. I mean, think about it: the Cons conquering and razing a planet was the entire point of Sixshot, the facsimilies, and the Infiltration Protocols to begin with! Why not write a Decepticons-winning premise off that existing structure? Furthermore, the massive presence of Ore-13 was a perfect excuse for the Cons to simply conquer Earth instead of trashing it. On top of that, if they could have some of the Con scientists busy refining said Ore to remove its downsides (instead of on pointless mindless drone army plans), that would give an equally perfect excuse as to what advantage gave the Cons the upper hand (instead of the ridiculous ambush thing). And then we've got Skywatch, who was designed from the get-go to find ways to fight these Cybertronians, and could have become interesting players in the resistance. And then there's the Machination, who could be an interesting side-faction, or at least Skywatch could discover them, shut them down, and incorporate their discoveries into their own efforts. (Picture government black ops Headmaster clones fighting against the Decepticons.)

And that's stuff that an amateur fanficcer who doesn't think she's all that great a writer can think of off the top of her head. A pro ought to be doing this way better than I can.

Or, the tl;dr version - there already was a perfect, well-constructed and foreshadowed setup for AHM's overall premise. But McCarthy threw that all out in favor of his own (IMHO cliche, contradictory, and overall inferior) personal setup.

I think that's what disappoints me the most about AHM... it was an intriguing idea that could have been really good and grown organically out of the existing storyline up until that point. Instead we got this mess.

***

I think that last paragraph sums up my thoughts entirely. This series could have been so good... an intelligent continuation of the existing continuity that was an interesting look at the Decepticons having conquered the galaxy. It could have been a look into their psychology as they deal with running things with an iron fist, while the Autobots and the citizens of the various destroyed/subjugated planets have to form a resistance to free themselves from the Cons' control. Instead we got a brainless cliched action B-movie pretending to be deep in places, whose few bright spots are overshadowed by its overall lousy handling.

For the first time ever in anything I've fangirled, I find myself wishing part of a universe's canon would get retconned out of continuity so we don't have to deal with the character derailment and continuity-erasing that this series brought about.

Especially the character derailment. I could spend a lot of time ranting about the crap changes that happened to Perceptor and Hunter, two of my favorite characters, for instance.

</walloftext>

After reading #12, I can honestly say that I am far far far from impressed with the new direction IDW decided to go with when letting McCarthy join the writing staff.

A weak series, by a weak writer really should have come as no surprise, this series wasted a year to tell a story that was told more or less over 40 minutes back in the mid 80's.

After giving everyone but Kup, Ironhide, Drift and Perceptor bugger all time he threw in some quick glances at a few other characters who would end up having a greater impact on the story than the characters he focused on in earlier issues. All the deaths in the series felt cheap, and forced, as though McCarthy felt that they needed to happen to give the series some kind of impact and it failed.
One death in particular felt like a total smack in the face of all that Furman had written beforehand, and it was wasted.

IDW is on thin ice with me, and I will not be buying another McCarthy penned book, each one I have read hacks away at a little more of the story and detailed universe that was written before he joined the IDW ranks.

I've actually been out of the comics loop for the last year or so and just recently had a two day jam of reading EVERYTHING I've missed since escalation....

Wasn't bad. I think it was a dick move to just cancel Furman's stuff and make way for this "NEWER, ALL...UM...DIFFERENT TRANSFORMERS!" thing....that said, I guess not having to wait month-to-month for all the issues made it alot more bearable to read. The human characters were...quite varying in their quality. Some of the first lines they had were just awful really. Drift wasn't too bad and I kinda liked that quick joke about Perceptor becoming "just another guy with a gun" (the HELL was up with that anyways? Cripes...). And I actually liked the portrayal of the Decepticons in this one. I've always liked the Decepticons but it's nice to see a bit of depth to them for once.

Holy crap, was that a terrible final issue though. Awful, awful crap. Thank god for those extra issues.

Really bad time-skip too...liked the mystery at first but...in hindsight, it wasn't a good thing.

I'm pretty shocked at those sale numbers though. I thought the movie would've boosted things a bit for all the series in general.

Having read all of Marvel US and Dreamwave'sTransformers comics in single issues and pretty much all of Marvel UK (I got every one of Titan's TPBs, except for Earthforce) and IDW's Transformers comics in TPB form I most admit I enjoyed All Hail Megatron vol. 1 more than any of Furman's arcs. I felt Furman was dialing it in and just piled on pointless sub-plots on top of pointless sub-plots that to me all ended very anti-climatically (which is a major weakness with a lot of Furman's Transformers stories in general). I felt All Hail Megatron was a fresh action-packed shot in the arm. I enjoyed All Hail Megatron a lot more than Devastation and Revelation both of which were dull, boring, predicable, and totally forgettable.

I highly recommend All Hail Megatron vol. 1 over all of Furman's IDW stuff. I think too many Transfans generally won't accept any other writer(s) on Transformers than Furman even if those writer(s) stories were 1,000 times better than Furman's stories. It's the same with Larry Hamma on G.I. Joe.

Cyberstrike wrote:I felt All Hail Megatron was a fresh action-packed shot in the arm. I enjoyed All Hail Megatron a lot more than Devastation and Revelation both of which were dull, boring, predicable, and totally forgettable.

I put AHM Megatron in the same boat as the other two. It was better (which doesnt say much), but as the series progressed I didnt feel like I was reading the same story at all as the focus shifted on characters way too much.

I have no desire to re-read this series, and to me that the best indication that it wasnt any good.

Sorry to resurrect a thread but I preferred doing that instead of just starting a new thread to ask a question related to this story.

I read it a couple of years ago when I got it in the first Transformers Humble Bundle and since i had not read any previous TF comics, nothing really seemed out of place. I wasn't overly impressed by any of it though it felt very formulaic. Megatron tries to take over the world, the autobots are out of resources but at the last minute they rally up and Optimus saves the day.
Feels like a typical comic book.

The one issue I did have was the whole Optimus coming back and saving the day. How did he come back to full health? We see him in the begining heavily damaged, practically dead. And then he's fine. Was it explained how he got better and why it was at that time that he did get better (and not before or after)? Just felt very convinient.

Yeah, the comic was shit in the most fundamental aspects like pacing and creativeness. That moment where Optimus was walking around in perfect health just four pages after Ratchet said he might not even pull through just disgusted me.

JazZeke wrote:Yeah, the comic was **** in the most fundamental aspects like pacing and creativeness. That moment where Optimus was walking around in perfect health just four pages after Ratchet said he might not even pull through just disgusted me.

Oh ok, so I didnt miss something and I am not the only one to think so, thanks!

I was really dissapointed. It seemed interesting at first when it looks like they will have to figure this out without having Prime. But no, at the last minute they just get down to earth with Prime and Omega Freaken Supreme and just beat the Decepitcons like at the end of any G1 episode. No sweat.

william-james88 wrote:

JazZeke wrote:Yeah, the comic was **** in the most fundamental aspects like pacing and creativeness. That moment where Optimus was walking around in perfect health just four pages after Ratchet said he might not even pull through just disgusted me.

Oh ok, so I didnt miss something and I am not the only one to think so, thanks!

I was really dissapointed. It seemed interesting at first when it looks like they will have to figure this out without having Prime. But no, at the last minute they just get down to earth with Prime and Omega Freaken Supreme and just beat the Decepitcons like at the end of any G1 episode. No sweat.

That was a lot of peoples' gripes with the story. Furman's arc was trying to do something a little different than just "Autobots wage their battles to destroy the evil forces of the Decepticons" and introduce a little moral grayness on both sides. McCarthy just swept all that off the table and replaced it with a more violent version of the Sunbow cartoon, complete with monologues about how the Autobots hadn't been morally upright enough before.

Only to have one of the characters who delivered one of those speeches kill a fan-favorite character from Furman's arc in the very last page. Fans of what came before couldn't help feeling it was one last middle finger to them.

But then there was the Costa run. Which was just bad all round, art (they ruined Figueroa), story, characters, and pacing. Then Last Stand of the Wreckers and Chaos Theory came in, and things felt better again, so Death of Optimus Prime could happen.

Dr Va'al wrote:But then there was the Costa run. Which was just bad all round, art (they ruined Figueroa), story, characters, and pacing. Then Last Stand of the Wreckers and Chaos Theory came in, and things felt better again, so Death of Optimus Prime could happen.

Yeah to this day I can't decide who was worse, Costa or McCarthy. I actually dropped the title after Costa's first arc, and I had never done that before. This is coming from the guy who bought every issue of Micromasters. Friggin' Micromasters. But every issue of Costa's writing left me viscerally angry at the end.

And then after his run ended he burned what little goodwill the fandom had left for him in that interview, remember that? He shoved his foot so deep in his mouth that even Chris Ryall publically condemned him. It was hilarious.

JazZeke wrote:

Dr Va'al wrote:But then there was the Costa run. Which was just bad all round, art (they ruined Figueroa), story, characters, and pacing. Then Last Stand of the Wreckers and Chaos Theory came in, and things felt better again, so Death of Optimus Prime could happen.

Yeah to this day I can't decide who was worse, Costa or McCarthy. I actually dropped the title after Costa's first arc, and I had never done that before. This is coming from the guy who bought every issue of Micromasters. Friggin' Micromasters. But every issue of Costa's writing left me viscerally angry at the end.

And then after his run ended he burned what little goodwill the fandom had left for him in that interview, remember that? He shoved his foot so deep in his mouth that even Chris Ryall publically condemned him. It was hilarious.

Good times good times.

This has been a fun retrospective.

I need to get back to my RE-VISITATION editorial, eventually.

Wow, I missed out on a lot. But now I know that if I want to read some good stuff, I can read the initial Simon Furman IDW stories. Will keep an eye out for those if ever comixology has a sale.

PS: Does someone have a link to the interview that was referenced above?

william-james88 wrote:Wow, I missed out on a lot. But now I know that if I want to read some good stuff, I can read the initial Simon Furman IDW stories. Will keep an eye out for those if ever comixology has a sale.

PS: Does someone have a link to the interview that was referenced above?

http://moonbase2.libsyn.com/webpage/the ... ongoing-31

From the wiki:
"He has stated that during his first year, he found himself burning out on the job and finding it "not as fun" as he'd thought, because the immortal, robotic nature of the characters difficult to get a handle on. Aside from the general oddness of the concept, he felt they lacked the usual motivations of an action-adventure character and he didn't see how they could realistically have personalities like humans, and the need to have them act human-esque was a big logical flaw. "They don't have all of the basic things that humans have that motivate them and give them motivation for drama for a story. They don't really get hungry, they don't get tired, they don't have women or relationships like that [which] they value because they don’t have females that they can love; maybe brotherly love, but how — they don’t have parents? They don't have religion or spirituality... you have to manufacture [these things] and that makes it very incoherent." That, and the restrictions from the toy-centric nature of the premise (like Optimus only turning into a truck all the time), caused him major problems. The final storyline, Chaos, energised him after it was turned into a big event and brought in James Roberts as a co-writer. [1]"

Oh man, I found some other stuff I will post below and its amazing to read this in retrospect. It is ironic that the last line of that quote above ends with James Roberts stepping in, which has now changed the TF comics books into something Costas could have never dreamt. Here is what I was thinking when I was reading what I found here:

Having written a total of 35 issues of Transformers, Mike Costa, interviewing with the The Underbase Podcast, proudly stated how honored and how “really cool” it is to know that only Transformers legends Simon Furman and Bob Budiansky have written more issues of this timeless comic than he has.

Wow, times have changes, 35 issues doesnt sound like all that much anymore.

– “Transformers are toys. They are toys. That’s why they’re giant robots that turn in to cars. They’re toys. There’s no reason a robot would turn in to a car, they’re toys. I guess you could come up with reasons for it – a lot of writers have – it’s just so strange.”

Grant Morrison has come up with far far stranger things in comics (which are all about strange things). Plus when playing War for Cybertron, it was pretty clear how being able to turn into your own transportation vehicle would come in quite handy.

– “Cars and trucks in a comic book aren’t expressive – there’s no character to a car.”

And yet this movie exists:



Plus how is this an issue when the car can turn into an expressive robot?!

– “My job as a writer is to understand why characters are doing certain things – beyond why they are doing things in a certain moment – to who they are as people, but that’s where questions start getting really confusing, because these ‘things’ aren’t people.”

That sounded very descriminatory It also sounded lame. Gandalf is super ancient too, and not a human, but you didnt see JRR Tolkien bitch about it. Instead he made him awesome! But thats beyond the point, I cant believe a professional writer actually wrote this. You can write them as people if you want to, you are the goddam writer!!!!

“They don’t get hungry, they don’t get tired, they don’t have women, they don’t have relationships that they value, because they don’t have females that they can love, maybe brotherly love but how, they don’t have parents?”

Friends who have fought side by side endlessly, having eachother's back, would not care about eachother? I guess there is nothing in our reality that could inspire him about people building bonds through war. Oh wait

– “Transformers fans read Transformers comics, and only Transformers comics. They are isolated from the rest of the comic book world.”

That is clearly no longer the case (if it ever was, which I doubt).

– In the comic book community, Transformers are not looked upon favorably. They are looked upon as being silly and “not-serious” comics. GI Joe is taken seriously. “GI Joe still has respectability, while Transformers does not.”

Wasnt MTMTE awarded best ongoing comic in 2015 from comics alliance? Why yes, it was http://comicsalliance.com/comics-allian ... al-comics/

– “I don’t think these books will be number 1 again. They target their market, and their market is shrinking, and there’s a lot of people in that market that are unpleasant.”

See above.

You're using later knowledge, and hindsight, to disprove points that were made before those points needed to be disproved, though. I dunno, it feels like not much of an argument if you're pointing out the flaws in his comic by showing how a different comic is doing things differently. (And can we please stop eating out of Roberts' hand?

One point I do want to make: Costa sounds a lot like David Goyer, the WB writer of comic book films who dislikes comic books and comic book fans. And, marginally, like some of the versions of Michael Bay we've seen across the years, the one who does not like Transformers (it depends on what time of the year it is, for Bay). Plus he has a very conservative view of writing and storytelling, in this as in other work of his. (E.g. male-female relationships are the only ones that count, the military is awesome, codes of honour, the industry is against us, I am misunderstood in my genius.)

There is, on the other hand, an element of truth to the fact that some TF comics readers only happen to read TF comics because they're not comics readers, but TF fans first and foremost. Not always the case, but I personally see it often (I came to it the other way round).


It may be worth saving this discussion for the retrospective RE-VISITATION piece, actually.

Dr Va'al wrote:You're using later knowledge, and hindsight, to disprove points that were made before those points needed to be disproved, though. I dunno, it feels like not much of an argument if you're pointing out the flaws in his comic by showing how a different comic is doing things differently. (And can we please stop eating out of Roberts' hand?)

I would love to know if you always felt this way about Roberts or if our opinion of him has slowly been changing, because I remember you beign very enthusiastic about him and his work when I first started at Seibertron. At least that was my impression. Or did he change?

In any case, I will postpone this discussion for later. But I did want to answer about me using later knowledge. I wasnt arguing, or trying to argue.

My whole point was looking at the past through today and realizing that there was an answer to what was seen as ploblematic. Like writing relationships or not knowing how to write the characters as people. A way has been found since, showing that if the writer really did want to change the TF comic landscape for the better, he could have.

Yes some of this points have managed to become even wrong-er in hindsight, but they were still pretty wrong to begin with. It was incredibly presumptuous and insulting to say that Transformers fans read only Transformers comics. While obviously there will be fans like that, I doubt even a fraction of them have never picked up a Marvel or a DC book in their life.

When Costa's very first issue came out, there was a major controversy when he had Prowl act wildly out of character, behaving in a way that he had always condemned other characters' for. And this was just two months after Nick Roche's groundbreaking story painting him as the magnificent bastard that made everyone suddenly love him came out.

After the issue came out, Costa opened himself up for audience questions, and when I asked him about it, his answer was basically that the fans had no right to judge him for just one issue and we had to buy more issues before we could form an opinion. He likened his writing to Moby Dick and said the whale didn't even show up til the end.

Now I'm sorry, but when is it the audience's job to pour their attention into a story until it gets good? A writer is supposed to entertain from the very beginning, grab the audience's attention from the start. We don't owe our time and money to a writer. And seriously, if you're going to compare yourself to a work of high literature, you should at least understand the work you're referencing. Even a layman knows Moby Dick isn't about the whale, it's about one man's obsession with the whale.

Good riddance that ignorant, unimaginative man.

william-james88 wrote:

Dr Va'al wrote:You're using later knowledge, and hindsight, to disprove points that were made before those points needed to be disproved, though. I dunno, it feels like not much of an argument if you're pointing out the flaws in his comic by showing how a different comic is doing things differently. (And can we please stop eating out of Roberts' hand?)

I would love to know if you always felt this way about Roberts or if our opinion of him has slowly been changing, because I remember you beign very enthusiastic about him and his work when I first started at Seibertron. At least that was my impression. Or did he change?

In any case, I will postpone this discussion for later. But I did want to answer about me using later knowledge. I wasnt arguing, or trying to argue.

My whole point was looking at the past through today and realizing that there was an answer to what was seen as ploblematic. Like writing relationships or not knowing how to write the characters as people. A way has been found since, showing that if the writer really did want to change the TF comic landscape for the better, he could have.

That last point precisely! He had an issue with something he didn't realise was his own issue as a writer. As for McCarthy, he has a much better sense of direction, overall, but not always good implementation (more on this at some point).

Roberts-wise: I like his writing, but it's the myth surrounding him that I grow tired of. As if he's not just one of the writers on three plus one books that IDW brings out, MTMTE is the only series that gets attention, and the others are seen as 'oh yeah, those other ones' at best of times. As I said, I do like his work, a lot. I really do. I just feel like we should stop idolising him. (That, and The Smiths and Morrissey are not that good. There, I said it. )

When I say 'argument', I mean your logic in the discussion, not arguing as in heated debate, by the way.


(Also, again, booooo military.)

Dr Va'al wrote:Roberts-wise: I like his writing, but it's the myth surrounding him that I grow tired of. As if he's not just one of the writers on three plus one books that IDW brings out, MTMTE is the only series that gets attention, and the others are seen as 'oh yeah, those other ones' at best of times. As I said, I do like his work, a lot. I really do. I just feel like we should stop idolising him. (That, and The Smiths and Morrissey are not that good. There, I said it. )

I agree about the Smyths and think the same regarding U2.
About Roberts, I totally get what you mean and I can see how it is tiring. However, I can tell you what I find very tiring: having to read through the Dark Cybertron story. I was reading MTMTE and when I got to Dark Cybertron I read everything I needed to in order (like the Optimus and hardhead adventures). And it was really hard reading through it all. I still havent finished Dark Cybertron, instead I just skipped it. I just didnt find the writing as good. I read more of John Barber stuff so I can listen to the seibertron podcasts and join in on the fun but it just doesnt work for me, I am not entertained. I always feel I can be reading better comics when I read a ohn Barber issue.

Nick Roche is alright, he doesnt get bogged down by a heavy plot and usually goes for something straight froward, which I do appreciate. But the dialogue is not his strong suit, to me.

James Roberts is definitely my favourite writer simply because he feels more like the kind of writers I am accustomed to when being into comics in my prior life. He reminds me of Mark Waid, who's one of the best around.

I just mean to say that I can see how Roberts has gotten that aura and how the other books might be ignored. Its the same with Marvel and DC and Image where one book will get way more love than others (cough Hawkeye cough Batman cough Saga cough) but its usually for good reason.

william-james88 wrote:*snip*

Dark Cybertron was co-written by Barber and Roberts. The major issue of that 'crossover' was the limitation due to the comics being specifically destined to pack-ins. I'm not sating you can't feel bored by it, it's not good, I agree.

Just, almost in support of my point earlier, let's not forget Roberts was also part of it.

I just remember something else I idnt get about All Hail Megatron. The big deal with how Optimus couldnt help them, aside from being practically dead was that the matrix had been stolen by the Dcepticons. I remember going "Holy Shit!", this is big, what are the autobots goig to do now in this different situation?
Nothing. Nothing changed. Optimus can still lead, he isnt less powerful without it, the Decepticons are not more powerful with it, there was no disadvantage (or advantage gained) due to the Matrix being stolen. That made that whole plot really trivial to the point where it was uneccesary to even mention.

If I missed something, let me know.

william-james88 wrote:I just remember something else I idnt get about All Hail Megatron. The big deal with how Optimus couldnt help them, aside from being practically dead was that the matrix had been stolen by the Dcepticons. I remember going "Holy ****!", this is big, what are the autobots goig to do now in this different situation?
Nothing. Nothing changed. Optimus can still lead, he isnt less powerful without it, the Decepticons are not more powerful with it, there was no disadvantage (or advantage gained) due to the Matrix being stolen. That made that whole plot really trivial to the point where it was uneccesary to even mention.

If I missed something, let me know.

Nah, you got it. As JazZeke said earlier, some of the pacing and general plot was just a bit ..eh.

Though the point is developed further after DoOP, where we see that the Matrix doesn't necessarily do anything, and is more of a relic-y trinket than a powerful McGuffin as it was in earlier versions of the fiction. To the point that Nominus Prime never really had the real one at all, as Sentinel discovers.

The point about the end of AHM, and the Costa run, which I always found extremely amusing, is that once DoOP had settled, we had basically ignored the entirety of the Costa run, returned to the same status that we had at the end of AHM, and used the latter to fuel the Earth side of the story (post Dark Cybertron). We may not like that story, or its execution, but it is still pretty seminal to anything to do with Earth in the TFverse - as it will be for Revolution, apparently.

A necessary MEHvil if you will.

Dr Va'al wrote:The point about the end of AHM, and the Costa run, which I always found extremely amusing, is that once DoOP had settled, we had basically ignored the entirety of the Costa run...

Well yeah, that's because nothing of real importance happened during the Costa run. It even opened with all the characters having sat on their asses for years. The Autobots were in hiding on Earth for reasons nobody could really explain, and the Decepticons, who had decimated the Autobot forces and reigned supreme across the galaxy in All Hail Megatron, were somehow suddenly a beaten-down force just because Megatron was in a coma.

JazZeke wrote:

Dr Va'al wrote:The point about the end of AHM, and the Costa run, which I always found extremely amusing, is that once DoOP had settled, we had basically ignored the entirety of the Costa run...

Well yeah, that's because nothing of real importance happened during the Costa run. It even opened with all the characters having sat on their asses for years. The Autobots were in hiding on Earth for reasons nobody could really explain, and the Decepticons, who had decimated the Autobot forces and reigned supreme across the galaxy in All Hail Megatron, were somehow suddenly a beaten-down force just because Megatron was in a coma.

Don't mock the mourning.


( )

JazZeke wrote: were somehow suddenly a beaten-down force just because Megatron was in a coma.

Sounds like the reverse of the opening for AHM

william-james88 wrote:

JazZeke wrote: were somehow suddenly a beaten-down force just because Megatron was in a coma.

Sounds like the reverse of the opening for AHM

Not quite, AHM at least bothered to explain that the Decepticons had successfully blitzed the Autobots and greatly reduced their forces. Optimus was beaten, sure, but like 90% of Autobots were supposedly killed.

Off-camera.

And what would have been a thrilling twist in the story was sidelined in favor of seven issues of the characters twiddling their thumbs afterwards.

JazZeke wrote:Optimus was beaten, sure, but like 90% of Autobots were supposedly killed.

You see, I totally didnt catch that. Maybe because all the autobots I knew were still alive. Was that retconned later? Because from reading MTMTE there are tons of autobots out there, even the Turbomasters are still alive.

Off-camera.

Just like how destructive Megatron was on Earth anywhere but New York... nice

And what would have been a thrilling twist in the story was sidelined in favor of seven issues of the characters twiddling their thumbs afterwards.

Yeah, I really hated that, I didnt see any point in going back to see what the autobots were up to (until Kup came) since it was always the same: nothing.

My favourite part still remains Astrotrain showing up in the underground subway tracks and killing all the humans. Thats the most I got from ALH.

william-james88 wrote:

JazZeke wrote:Optimus was beaten, sure, but like 90% of Autobots were supposedly killed.

You see, I totally didnt catch that. Maybe because all the autobots I knew were still alive. Was that retconned later? Because from reading MTMTE there are tons of autobots out there, even the Turbomasters are still alive.

It was mentioned in such an offhand manner that a lot of people missed it. Other, more competent writers actually made use of its storytelling potential. And presumably all the Autobots killed were generics who didn't have toys, no no one we were invested in.

Off-camera.

Just like how destructive Megatron was on Earth anywhere but New York... nice

See, that was another inconsistency. McCarthy had a seen where the Cons razed China, then like the next issue the Decepticons were bitching about how Megatron wasn't letting them go anywhere, and a couple issues after that, the UN were discussing nuking New York (over tea and crumpets!!!) before the Decepticons could destroy anyplace else.

So I just had a thought.

Ever since the Marvel Movieverse's success, everyone wants their stories now to have "expanded universes" and have continuity with other stories. It must be a living nightmare for Andy "If I could go back to the 70s and 80s and stop Marvel and DC from ingraining in comics fans[sic] brains that continuity is paramount, I would" Schmidt.