Buyer Beware! KO Masterpiece 12 Lambor / Sideswipe!

Ughh... That sucks. Not that it actually matters, but are these true bootlegs, or repackaged QC-rejects taken/stolen from the official production lines?

I've heard that Tiger Track too has been the subject of QC-rejects having been taken from the factory rejects bin, and then repackaged in counterfeit packaging (no holographic seal on the box), complete with copied instructions and character cards.

BTW, keep in mind that factory QC reject bins are often the source of the newer, sold loose (with no instructions) Transformers and other toys that are offered on eBay and other sites.

Wow, that was fast.

Only thing I notice right off the bat is that the red is lighter, but that could just be the lighting.

I know this conversation has gone round and round, but KO's flat piss me off. 3rd party, not so much KO's seem WAY more sinister. The intention MIGHT be (but I highly doubt) to offer a product at a reduced cost, but at some point, people will be getting these believing they have an authentic piece. You all know it's gonna happen.

iirc even legit stores got victimized by the KOs (G1 Cyclonus and Metroplex)..........if only Tomy will release a second pressing.

Them KO's are just bad in all kinds of ways. Some people who are reading this are now going to check their mp figures and so am I. Good thing the official masterpieces have that special sticker. I say that if you ever receive a ko, do everything that's in your power to return it.
And I'm watching who I buy from, from now on.

I know this ko issue is due to takara only producing a kind of limited amount of their figures and that people always want them to make a trillion figures and repaints and reissues so that everyone can get a chance to get the toy that they want. And I say no to that, that's decreasing the value of the toy (common example: generations bruticus). I want the toy makers to keep all the toy making to only one or two production runs and only one or no repaints of figures. This might increase the ko problem but for the collector who does get the original toy can see its value go up, up, up.

Eagleblaster wrote:Them KO's are just bad in all kinds of ways. Some people who are reading this are now checking there mp figures and so am I. Good thing the official masterpieces have that special sticker. I say that if you ever receive a ko, do everything that's in your power to return it.
And I'm watching who I buy from, from now on.

Well, there are two sides to the coin, as the saying goes. KOs can be an acceptable alternative, as long as their quality is excellent. For example, for the past few years, I've been searching for the Classics Voyager Optimus Prime. Those things go for big money here on the internetz. If I had to choose, I'd much rather take a KO that had excellent quality than the real deal that is hard to find and costs moolah.

Now, if the seller advertises as the legit figure, and it turns out to be a KO, then oh yes, there's a special place in hell for sellers such as those.

Eagleblaster wrote:(...)
I know this ko issue is due to takara only producing a kind of limited amount of their figures and that people always want them to make a trillion figures and repaints and reissues so that everyone can get a chance to get the toy that they want. And I say no to that, that's decreasing the value of the toy (common example: generations bruticus). I want the toy makers to keep all the toy making to only one or two production runs and only one or no repaints of figures. This might increase the ko problem but for the collector who does get the original toy can see its value go up, up, up.

If you are in the toy collecting game only to see your toys go up in value, you should really start wondering if you are in it for the right reasons. That attitude only leads to scalping: abusing the real or perceived 'limited' or 'exclusive' nature of the availability of a toy.
Luckily, neither Takara or Hasbro thinks that way, and both have been proven to adapt their supply to the demand, with multiple runs of some of their most popular Masterpieces and with Encore reissues of some of the most rare/desired G1 toys. That in fact is the only way to combat KO's: to make enough products so that the demand is sated.

Mindmaster wrote:

Eagleblaster wrote:Them KO's are just bad in all kinds of ways. Some people who are reading this are now checking there mp figures and so am I. Good thing the official masterpieces have that special sticker. I say that if you ever receive a ko, do everything that's in your power to return it.
And I'm watching who I buy from, from now on.

Well, there are two sides to the coin, as the saying goes. KOs can be an acceptable alternative, as long as their quality is excellent. For example, for the past few years, I've been searching for the Classics Voyager Optimus Prime. Those things go for big money here on the internetz. If I had to choose, I'd much rather take a KO that had excellent quality than the real deal that is hard to find and costs moolah.

Now, if the seller advertises as the legit figure, and it turns out to be a KO, then oh yes, there's a special place in hell for sellers such as those.

True, true. If the seller says if the product is a ko or not in the item description then that would really help the problem. And plus I don't want to put them small sellers and small time merchants out of business.

alldarker wrote:

Eagleblaster wrote:(...)
I know this ko issue is due to takara only producing a kind of limited amount of their figures and that people always want them to make a trillion figures and repaints and reissues so that everyone can get a chance to get the toy that they want. And I say no to that, that's decreasing the value of the toy (common example: generations bruticus). I want the toy makers to keep all the toy making to only one or two production runs and only one or no repaints of figures. This might increase the ko problem but for the collector who does get the original toy can see its value go up, up, up.

If you are in the toy collecting game only to see your toys go up in value, you should really start wondering if you are in it for the right reasons. That attitude only leads to scalping: abusing the real or perceived 'limited' or 'exclusive' nature of the availability of a toy.
Luckily, neither Takara or Hasbro thinks that way, and both have been proven to adapt their supply to the demand, with multiple runs of some of their most popular Masterpieces and with Encore reissues of some of the most rare/desired G1 toys. That in fact is the only way to combat KO's: to make enough products so that the demand is sated.

Although I may not agree with Eagleblaster completely; Alldarker, who makes the decision what is the right reason to collect Transformers?

alldarker wrote:Ughh... That sucks. Not that it actually matters, but are these true bootlegs, or repackaged QC-rejects taken/stolen from the official production lines?

I've heard that Tiger Track too has been the subject of QC-rejects having been taken from the factory rejects bin, and then repackaged in counterfeit packaging (no holographic seal on the box), complete with copied instructions and character cards.

BTW, keep in mind that factory QC reject bins are often the source of the newer, sold loose (with no instructions) Transformers and other toys that are offered on eBay and other sites.

I never knew that. Thanks

alldarker wrote:

Eagleblaster wrote:(...)
I know this ko issue is due to takara only producing a kind of limited amount of their figures and that people always want them to make a trillion figures and repaints and reissues so that everyone can get a chance to get the toy that they want. And I say no to that, that's decreasing the value of the toy (common example: generations bruticus). I want the toy makers to keep all the toy making to only one or two production runs and only one or no repaints of figures. This might increase the ko problem but for the collector who does get the original toy can see its value go up, up, up.

If you are in the toy collecting game only to see your toys go up in value, you should really start wondering if you are in it for the right reasons. That attitude only leads to scalping: abusing the real or perceived 'limited' or 'exclusive' nature of the availability of a toy.
Luckily, neither Takara or Hasbro thinks that way, and both have been proven to adapt their supply to the demand, with multiple runs of some of their most popular Masterpieces and with Encore reissues of some of the most rare/desired G1 toys. That in fact is the only way to combat KO's: to make enough products so that the demand is sated.

You are so so wrong. Flooding the market with a large production and reissues and repaints and exclusives it exactly the problem. If you have all these different variations of the same toy then it wouldn't be hard to just throw a couple thousand ko's into the market without anyone noticing, if you know what I mean.

If it was kept to a limited collectors run but not really really limited but not all them remakes then ppl who dI'd get the chance to pick the original toy up can say I know I got the real toy cause it was only made in the year or time of so and so. If I'm making any sence.
Finally, there is a way to combat ko's and that is to put special labeling on all the products and toys.

Stormrider wrote:(...)
Although I may not agree with Eagleblaster completely; Alldarker, who makes the decision what is the right reason to collect Transformers?

I DO!!!! Just kidding, yeah, everyone has their own reasons for collecting: some like playing with their toys, some like staring at them as they lie untouched in their boxes.

To me personally, however, enjoying your toy partly/mostly/only because it is rare and expensive, rather than for the fact it is a nice toy, seems rather sad.

That's why I loved the fact that for example Fortress Maximus was reissued: it is a great and magnificent toy and the costs of a vintage FM had indeed become prohibitive due to the workings of supply (small) and demand (large). Same goes for the second run of Takara's MP Soundwave (and of course Hasbro's own MP Soundwave): when it first came out, supply of this toy was limited while demand was huge. And that not only attracts scalpers, but also the producters of KO's (getting back on topic). There's only going to be bucks in it for KO-producers if the price they can sell them at is high enough to risk the production of KO's (and that value has evidently been reached with MP-12 Lambor and MP-12T Tiger Track). If there are enough official products and repaints of those products to satisfy the demand, there would be no incentive for KO-producers.

sorry but the mp line is where I set my boundaries.
when takara goes above and beyond to get the liscences for these vehicles including wheeljack and bumblebee i will only support the official version.
for those that say its not an investment your right 100% until that is you no longer want to collect and decide to liquidate your collection then all of a sudden it will matter.
the only reason im passionate about this line is because ive forgone every other line to collect mp. not for an investment but because finally ill have the bots i grew up with in an awesome scale, posability, and faithful detail to the cartoon and it saddens me to see this nonsense happen but alas nothing we can do to prevent it

side note: sooooo glad i got ss when i did as hes my favorite car character.

I absolutely 100% agree with alldarker.

Sure, you can collect for exclusivity.. But not at the cost of people not being able to get what they want.. Especially when the particular item is not a convention exclusive. . Those should be the only toys that are difficult to obtain.

I also agree that when there is little supply, and huge demand.. That's usually when we see knock offs happen.. Like city commander.. Masterpiece figures.. Etc. I think it's rare to see toys that are easy to obtain being released as a knock off.

As for the KO matter, I don't mind it at all, as long as its labeled as a knock off by whoever is selling it.

I, personally will continue buying the real toys.. And knowing that I own the real thing is good enough for me.

I believe that there is a place for knock offs, not everyone has the money to purchase the real thing.. And I'm not one to tell someone else that they can't buy a toy because its not the real thing.. It's their choice, and maybe it's their only choice of owning a particular mold. But, again, it should be THEIR choice to own the knock off, not the sellers choice to sell a person one without it being clearly labeled as a knock off.

On topic: There was a pretty long thread over on TFW about this and a chinese dealer who actually had 8-10 of them in stock (not knowingly till TFW guys pointed it out) went back to the person he got them from and confirmed they are factory rejects in boxes that dont have the hologram. There were apparently more MP12T this way than sideswipe(s)... And as someone else pointed out, that's where all the new "loose" figures on ebay come from as well. One seller had several MP12s with red heads.

An evil duplicate of Sideswipe? Right down to the pile-drivers?!

He's going after the Nova Suspension Bridge!!! AAAAAAH!!!

I'll usually defend KOs more vehemently than anyone else, but coming out so soon after the real MP...and is Takara doing another run, or did the second run already arrive? Considering many fans like myself still haven't saved up for the real deal, and there's no clear word that we're never getting this from Hasbro (unlikely as it is), I agree this is going to cause more confusion than a KO should.

HOWEVER, if the licensing agreement should unexpectedly fall through, preventing any possible official rereleases down the road, some of us will be thanking the KO-maker who actually can pull off and distribute a high-quality copy of this.

Just sticking to my mantra of preservation being job one, official or otherwise. I would rather save up for a real one, and hope someone posts a guide of any differences ASAP.

Eagleblaster sounds rather selfish. Toys are made for kids to play with.

To limit others in getting what they like just so the price goes up doesn't seem fair. Almost sounds like having a certain TF gives you status.

As long as there's a main line with some repaints to keep the factories running, and a wide distribution + low prices, there shouldn't be much profit in making KO's.

They're toys not designer purses

my uneducated 2 cents

The mentality that KOs are OK because you can't afford or find the original absolutely baffles me. It's the same mentality that rationalizes 3rd party products. But those of you who are fans of one and not the other somehow have it worked out in your heads that it is indeed different. It's unfortunate that people try to justify all of this.

Seibertron wrote:The mentality that KOs are OK because you can't afford or find the original absolutely baffles me. It's the same mentality that rationalizes 3rd party products. But those of you who are fans of one and not the other somehow have it worked out in your heads that it is indeed different. It's unfortunate that people try to justify all of this.

It's about shades of grey - apparently there are at least 50 of them

Seibertron wrote:The mentality that KOs are OK because you can't afford or find the original absolutely baffles me. It's the same mentality that rationalizes 3rd party products. But those of you who are fans of one and not the other somehow have it worked out in your heads that it is indeed different. It's unfortunate that people try to justify all of this.

I agree with you about the ko's but I'm not sure what you're getting at with the 3rd party stuff.