Hasbro addresses allegations of poor working conditions

This whole situation kind of leaves me a little sick to my stomach..Not sure what else to say about it..

Group of dudes A says Hasbro's working conditions are inhumane!

Group of dudes B says Hasbro's working conditions are perfectly fine, the allegations are false.

I'm not going to say who's telling the truth here, but I believe you can chose where you work in China. Even then, if they're willing to work in poor conditions, and are, they probably need that money they earn.

If these are the same workers responsible for making Bayformers. Then I say let the punishment fit the crime. The should've rallied for a strike as soon as Bay stepped on the scene in 07.

Yeah, Bayformers made billions of dollars. Hasbro has earned so much money from the movies, that they've been able to improve there equipment and quality of the toys they make. Steven Speilberg, Hasbro & Paramount are begging Michael Bay to come back and make the 4th movie. So, how were the "bayformers" a failure? And please use specific factual examples. Not just your opinions

So figure quality continues to drop and now their working conditions are as well, maybe they should stop pocketing the bayformer money and actually put it where it belongs into making their products better and making sure their employees have suitable working conditions & pay grades across the bored not just for the higher ups. I need to find me a new hobby to replace transformers.

How is the quality of the toys poor? Please explain & give examples of how they were better before the Transformer movies came out. Don't just make statements without backing up your opinion with hard facts

One word: Bullshit.

America's poor child eyes continue to be protected from the harsh realities of what happens when all the world's product labor gets outsourced to a single communist country.

And yeah those people HAVE to work there. It's not like they have much choice, any other factory in China is not going to be much different. And for any factories where you might make decent wages I'd imagine it would be almost impossible to get a job position.

As for the mention of bayformers. The franchise made most of it's money from the films. The toy sales have been somewhat of a crapshoot though and they make far more product then they need to for the respective lines, leaving shelves full of un-bought toys for the following years. I see it that kids are more likely to buy toys based on a television series than on a movie, seeing as a TV series is something they watch once a week and a movie is something they only see once every two years. TV shows will actually keep up their attention span. And yes, I've heard people complain about the quality control allot more since the movies came out. Though my personal experience says that the decline started with Animated. Quantity over quality.

Envisaged0ne wrote:How is the quality of the toys poor? Please explain & give examples of how they were better before the Transformer movies came out. Don't just make statements without backing up your opinion with hard facts

Don't bother, those guys blame Bay for everything. Somehow it's his fault that working conditions are bad in a factory he is in no way involved with.

Towards the end of this short video you can see the average working conditions in a Chinese toy factory:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DX1iplQQJTo

I seriously doubt Hasbro's factory is any different...

The only time I've heard any real quality control problems was with the animated line. Haven't heard anything towards the generations, reveal the shield or movie lines. Yes, every once in a while someone will get one that has loose joints or paint smudges. But that's true with anything you buy and you can't hold Hasbro to a higher standard than everyone else. Again, the animated line had some legitimate issues to complain about, but I see all to often people taking it out on the "bayformers". And people say that Michael Bay ruined the Transformers franchise. But, facts show that the movies made billions of dollars. Paramount made more money with the TF3 than any other movie ever released. If Bay was the aweful director people make him out to be, and the toys were so aweful, then he never would have been allowed to continue making the movies. And again, everyone wouldn't be begging him to do the 4th one. I just get irritated when people bash Michael Bay and act like it's his fault when there's something about Transformers they don't like. If it weren't for him and the movies, Transformers wouldn't be where it is today.

Michael Bay and the movies have nothing to do with this thread. Drop it.

Any further mention of Michael Bay, or the movies will result in warnings.

This thread is about alleged poor working conditions in Chinese factories that happen to produce Transformer toys.

Rated X wrote:Towards the end of this short video you can see the average working conditions in a Chinese toy factory:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DX1iplQQJTo

I seriously doubt Hasbro's factory is any different...

Gad dammit! I thought it was a real video of a Chinese factory. Stupid Simpsons lol

I'm going out on a limb here, but I'm going to guess having the International Council of Toy Industries assess whether a toy company's factory is ethical is kind of like grading your own test. Organizations like this are generally created and funded by the companies in the industry, so expecting them to have an unbiased opinion is silly. Perhaps the accuser is exaggerating things a bit, but if Hasbro were really serious about investigating, they'd let a third party with no vested interest do it, not a toy company association.

*Sorry bout the bayformers rant.
On topic: I found this from Wikipedia's website about Hasbro. Looks like this isn't the 1st time Hasbro has been looked at for bad employee practices in China...

"Manufacture

Over the years Hasbro has outsourced the manufacture of its products to third-party companies, mostly in China. At the Chinese factories, which Hasbro does not directly own or operate, migrant workers are compensated with meager salaries for their labor. At one such factory, in Dongguan, China, basic assembly line jobs pay a little over one hundred US dollars per month,[13] China's minimum wage.

In 2007, a workers' rights group investigated several of Hasbro's Chinese suppliers and found that, in one instance, a toy factory in China's Guangxi Province had hired 1000 junior high school students. The same group discovered other widespread labor violations, including unsafe working conditions, mandatory overtime, verbal abuse and sexual harassment of employees. Hasbro issued a statement, saying that it would "act swiftly and decisively in making any necessary changes" and had "increased the intensity of [its] ongoing safety review efforts." Critics counter that, as Hasbro has no official regulatory control of these factories, it responds to such investigations by acquiring independent auditors, who make unannounced visits to the East Asian subcontractors. Factory managers are then "coached" in how to fool the auditors.[14]

Outside Asia, Hasbro owns and operates only two manufacturing facilities, one in Waterford, Ireland, the other in East Longmeadow, Massachusetts, USA. In recent years, the company has cut jobs at both plants in response to increasing competition from lower cost locations in China. At the end of 2006, for example, Hasbro's Irish division laid off more than one third of its workforce"

Regarding quality control: I was fortunate to receive Transformers: Prime figures for Christmas. I have Arcee, Starscream, Bumblebee, and the entertainment pack with Optimus/Megatron.

Bumblebee's heel was out of alignment and he couldn't stand right. I was able to disassemble the foot and fix it, but he has a loose shoulder that flops around and I can't fix that. Two issues in one figure.

One of Starscream's rubbery knee spikes was folded over when packaged and is pointing to the side at 45 degrees. Doesn't hinder transformation or posing but it looks pretty obviously wrong when you see him, and it's not something I think I can fix since I can't bend it back into place without it just snapping right back.

I started collecting with Generations and had a few quality issues before, but it stinks that I can't easily return any of the new figures to get a fixed replacement because of their rarity right now. I've seen others complain about Hasbro QC before but this was the first time it hit me, and gave me a wow factor after having obvious issues with two figures in a row. I wondered if things had gone downhill somehow.

retrothomas wrote:Regarding quality control: I was fortunate to receive Transformers: Prime figures for Christmas. I have Arcee, Starscream, Bumblebee, and the entertainment pack with Optimus/Megatron.

Bumblebee's heel was out of alignment and he couldn't stand right. I was able to disassemble the foot and fix it, but he has a loose shoulder that flops around and I can't fix that. Two issues in one figure.

My Bumblebee has a loose and floppy shoulder. The right one, actually. The metal stud or rivet or whatever they call those flatheaded pins is loose and makes the arm flop. Can't get it to move without damaging the figure. If I had a soldering iron, I could warm it up enough to push it in without damage, but I currently have no access to one, at the moment.

retrothomas wrote:One of Starscream's rubbery knee spikes was folded over when packaged and is pointing to the side at 45 degrees. Doesn't hinder transformation or posing but it looks pretty obviously wrong when you see him, and it's not something I think I can fix since I can't bend it back into place without it just snapping right back.

Put the rubbery piece, or the entire leg, in just barely boiling water. Not enough to warp the plastic, but make it pliable. Give it a good 30 seconds. Scoop it out, straighten it immediately and then shove it in the freezer for about 5 minutes. It'll come out rock solid and straight. If it ever gets floppy again, just repeat the process.

retrothomas wrote:I started collecting with Generations and had a few quality issues before, but it stinks that I can't easily return any of the new figures to get a fixed replacement because of their rarity right now. I've seen others complain about Hasbro QC before but this was the first time it hit me, and gave me a wow factor after having obvious issues with two figures in a row. I wondered if things had gone downhill somehow.

That's why it bothers me to be an early adopter. I still went ahead and bought the figures, but yeah, it worries and bothers me that if I get a piece of junk, I'm stuck with it. Can't depend on Hasbro to replace it, they'll send you something comparable. (Yay?)

I did notice a trend in QC this year. First in DOTM, now in F.E.P...

Horrible paint quality. The apps are handled well, as in they don't bleed and they're not crooked, but the paint is thin and chips easily. My DOTM Sentinel Prime's legs are awful. The paint looks so horrible. I will give it a touch up here when I get the chance, but it's pretty awful after spending that kinda dough.

Voyager Prime Optimus Prime is one of the worst offenders. Mine has paint chips on the smokestack panels, the waist, the feet and the roof. Problem is, instead of molding the plastic red, they molded it in blue and black and just painted it. I don't see how that saves them costs, because you can tell there's more than one coat of paint on these sections.

I'm not sure who's idea it was, but they need a refresher course in getting it right.

The plastic feels thinner, the paint's worse, the construction is shoddy. If this is an indication of what's to come, we're going to see a return to GPS. Or something else that's equally horrible. Hasbro wants $12.99 per Deluxe...well, where is that money going? Obviously not into the materials, or to the workers, so what's their excuse now?

I'm normally not a Hasbro basher, I hate that brand hate crap, but these concerns are legitimate and after spending good money, I'm a little P.O.ed.

Powermaster Jazz wrote:

Rated X wrote:Towards the end of this short video you can see the average working conditions in a Chinese toy factory:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DX1iplQQJTo

I seriously doubt Hasbro's factory is any different...

Gad dammit! I thought it was a real video of a Chinese factory. Stupid Simpsons lol

You really wanna see that ???

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVK6qCrq ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2KCYsmW ... re=related

Oh you wanna get REEEEALLLY real? Let's get nuts...



Yes, minimum wage: live like kings in Communist China.

Autobot032 wrote:Put the rubbery piece, or the entire leg, in just barely boiling water. Not enough to warp the plastic, but make it pliable. Give it a good 30 seconds. Scoop it out, straighten it immediately and then shove it in the freezer for about 5 minutes. It'll come out rock solid and straight. If it ever gets floppy again, just repeat the process.

Thank you! I'll try that.

I'll be blunt as always with you guys: if any of you are thinking about giving up the hobby or boycotting it altogether, you may as well throw out every single thing that was fabricated in China. Every, single, thing. And trust me that'll be quite a lot to throw out.

In a sense it's our own damn fault for being such big consumers. Large demand will make companies look for cheaper places to produce, and those places will cut corners wherever possible, no matter the consequence. And it will always be this way no matter where the companies will settle next.

Nekoman wrote:Group of dudes A says Hasbro's working conditions are inhumane!

Group of dudes B says Hasbro's working conditions are perfectly fine, the allegations are false.

I'm not going to say who's telling the truth here, but I believe you can chose where you work in China. Even then, if they're willing to work in poor conditions, and are, they probably need that money they earn.

Hmm... so hasbro checked an thinks the claims are false? Well i personally think Group A seems more legit.Given that they actually gave us the 1st image of TF:Prime RID bumblebee, along with lots of pics of inside the factory. I doubt someone would go that far just to make up a bunch of lies to screw with hasbro. After all, Group A came out with a nice report with pictures as proof. A picture paints a thousand words. All Hasbro did to deny these claims were to simply state it in words. Where is the evidence that all your workers are fine?

On a side not, i'm probably never going to even touch my Prime Bumblebee again.

After an unannounced, nine hour inspection, both Hasbro and the I.C.T.I. determined the facility met "Hasbro's rigorous requirements."

Haven't had the chance to read through all reports, but this line is suspect. It's not that the conditions are fine, it's that the facility meets "rigorous requirements", i.e. no one's died and x amount of toys are produced.

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:I'll be blunt as always with you guys: if any of you are thinking about giving up the hobby or boycotting it altogether, you may as well throw out every single thing that was fabricated in China. Every, single, thing. And trust me that'll be quite a lot to throw out.

In a sense it's our own damn fault for being such big consumers. Large demand will make companies look for cheaper places to produce, and those places will cut corners wherever possible, no matter the consequence. And it will always be this way no matter where the companies will settle next.

This is an intelligent thought more should ponder.

What surprises me is how many people are acting like this is something new. Everyone makes shit in China, not just Hasbro. Also, China in general isn't known for their good human rights. This has been apparent for... forever.

You could stop buying from Hasbro, but Mattel's no different. Jazwares or whatever their name is either, or Bandai, or any other toy company.

Life sucks. In some places more so than others. You really can't blame Hasbro for shit like this cause you know it happens no matter who you buy from.

Ultimately it's up to the Chinese to fix their own problems.

This is the typical corporate BS response, the main reason why companies move their operations over seas to China is because China does not give a crap about human rights, and honestly, neither do most big corporations, all they care about is making money and sadly all most Americans care about any more are material goods(the ones who can afford it) those who can't are just trying to survive to the next day. This has a lot to do with the shape the country is in. I was appalled that the headline for the news story on this site containing the report was about a packaging variant and not the damning report. tfw didn't even post the news of the variant as far as I know(good for them). Toy quality has been going down hill for a while now, I will not go into details, but just compare rts Rodimus to the original classics version. There is more than just mold degradation that is the issue there, look at all the times they used the Combaticon molds. I really can't say I feel the same zeal for tfs that I did b4 I read that report, I knew it was bad in China but DAMN! We as a country are all aiding in the exploitation of these people and it sux. Bush lifted tarrifs on imported goods from China and there has been a "giant sucking sound"(Ross Perot) ever since. We as Americans are suffering because we have lost our manufacturing base (middle class included) and the chinese people are suffering for obvious reasons. Doesn't matter tho, at this rate China will own the damn world.

P.S. I have yet to buy a DOTM toy, they all look like melted piles of feces to me.

Nekoman wrote:

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:I'll be blunt as always with you guys: if any of you are thinking about giving up the hobby or boycotting it altogether, you may as well throw out every single thing that was fabricated in China. Every, single, thing. And trust me that'll be quite a lot to throw out.

In a sense it's our own damn fault for being such big consumers. Large demand will make companies look for cheaper places to produce, and those places will cut corners wherever possible, no matter the consequence. And it will always be this way no matter where the companies will settle next.

This is an intelligent thought more should ponder.

What surprises me is how many people are acting like this is something new. Everyone makes shit in China, not just Hasbro. Also, China in general isn't known for their good human rights. This has been apparent for... forever.

You could stop buying from Hasbro, but Mattel's no different. Jazwares or whatever their name is either, or Bandai, or any other toy company.

Life sucks. In some places more so than others. You really can't blame Hasbro for shit like this cause you know it happens no matter who you buy from.

Ultimately it's up to the Chinese to fix their own problems.

Actually, TFs are Hasbro's intellectual property, it is their responsibilty not the Chinese govt. I don't know how the manufacturing industry works in China, but if working conditions are poor hasbro doesn't have to produce toys in China or that particular factory(though I doubt conditions are better anywhere else), again, all they are concerned with is profit. This is all old news but sometimes it takes something like this report to remind everyone of how things are over there(after all out of sight, out of mind). I'm with the guy who said earlier that hasbro should stop pocketing their profit and actually put it into improving their product and working conditions for their workers. I try not to buy made in china, but sometimes I have no choice(damned electronics), I will not buy anything distilled or produced in china that is food related(apple juice from china has high levels of arsenic and strychnine).

Nekoman wrote:

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:I'll be blunt as always with you guys: if any of you are thinking about giving up the hobby or boycotting it altogether, you may as well throw out every single thing that was fabricated in China. Every, single, thing. And trust me that'll be quite a lot to throw out.

In a sense it's our own damn fault for being such big consumers. Large demand will make companies look for cheaper places to produce, and those places will cut corners wherever possible, no matter the consequence. And it will always be this way no matter where the companies will settle next.

This is an intelligent thought more should ponder.

What surprises me is how many people are acting like this is something new. Everyone makes shit in China, not just Hasbro. Also, China in general isn't known for their good human rights. This has been apparent for... forever.

You could stop buying from Hasbro, but Mattel's no different. Jazwares or whatever their name is either, or Bandai, or any other toy company.

Life sucks. In some places more so than others. You really can't blame Hasbro for shit like this cause you know it happens no matter who you buy from.

Ultimately it's up to the Chinese to fix their own problems.

This. We seem to think alike.

Unfortunately, with the Chinese government putting a firm iron hold on its population, I don't really see much positive change happening from them any time soon. All we can do is set examples with our factories, but ponder this: were our factories in the Western world any different back in the 1950's?

Apple says if the ipad were produced in America it would be unaffordable, this is BS, yeah it would cost more, but they would have to pay their workers a decent wage and that is not bad, let's look at the logistics of this, Apple moves manufacturing to America, hires x amount of people to produce the ipad, prices of the ipad goes up, however; if wages for the production of ipad are raised to coincide with increase in retail price, let's say the ipad doubles it's retail price to 1000.00 for a base model, the linemen are making 15 to 20 an hour working 40 to 50 hours a week, at 15 an hour times 40 hours a week times 4 weeks a month, thats $2400 a month, American workers could afford a base model ipad and where I live, still be able to pay there bills and have money left over, instead companies send jobs over seas, americans lose jobs, income, etc, chinese people are paid pennies on the dollar, inferior products are made and everyone loses out in the end. Do you think a chinese worker could afford a base model ipad now? Apple pockets all the money, the workers get shiite, and we get crappy products. I know my economics are flawed in the above example, so don't crucify me on it, but this profit before people mentality is why we are in a recession/depression depending on where you live.

Look one thing We always have to remember is that beside every thing own is made in sweat shops, in China, India, Taiwan and all that is that the factors comply to the countries health and safety regulations for factories not saying that Hasbro doesn't have part in it.

Deszaras1979 wrote:Apple says if the ipad were produced in America it would be unaffordable, this is BS, yeah it would cost more, but they would have to pay their workers a decent wage and that is not bad, let's look at the logistics of this, Apple moves manufacturing to America, hires x amount of people to produce the ipad, prices of the ipad goes up, however; if wages for the production of ipad are raised to coincide with increase in retail price, let's say the ipad doubles it's retail price to 1000.00 for a base model, the linemen are making 15 to 20 an hour working 40 to 50 hours a week, at 15 an hour times 40 hours a week times 4 weeks a month, thats $2400 a month, American workers could afford a base model ipad and where I live, still be able to pay there bills and have money left over, instead companies send jobs over seas, americans lose jobs, income, etc, chinese people are paid pennies on the dollar, inferior products are made and everyone loses out in the end. Do you think a chinese worker could afford a base model ipad now? Apple pockets all the money, the workers get shiite, and we get crappy products. I know my economics are flawed in the above example, so don't crucify me on it, but this profit before people mentality is why we are in a recession/depression depending on where you live.

Do you know what the word profit means?
It means the money that is left after all the investments have been earned back, including wages.
If the retail price goes up due to Apple having to pay higher wages, guess what would happen if they increased their wages even further. You guessed it the iPAd would be even more expensive.

Companies don't get the money to pay their workers from thin air, they have to earn it first.

If someone used your example we would have an even higher inflation than now.

Dead Metal wrote:

Deszaras1979 wrote:Apple says if the ipad were produced in America it would be unaffordable, this is BS, yeah it would cost more, but they would have to pay their workers a decent wage and that is not bad, let's look at the logistics of this, Apple moves manufacturing to America, hires x amount of people to produce the ipad, prices of the ipad goes up, however; if wages for the production of ipad are raised to coincide with increase in retail price, let's say the ipad doubles it's retail price to 1000.00 for a base model, the linemen are making 15 to 20 an hour working 40 to 50 hours a week, at 15 an hour times 40 hours a week times 4 weeks a month, thats $2400 a month, American workers could afford a base model ipad and where I live, still be able to pay there bills and have money left over, instead companies send jobs over seas, americans lose jobs, income, etc, chinese people are paid pennies on the dollar, inferior products are made and everyone loses out in the end. Do you think a chinese worker could afford a base model ipad now? Apple pockets all the money, the workers get shiite, and we get crappy products. I know my economics are flawed in the above example, so don't crucify me on it, but this profit before people mentality is why we are in a recession/depression depending on where you live.

Do you know what the word profit means?
It means the money that is left after all the investments have been earned back, including wages.
If the retail price goes up due to Apple having to pay higher wages, guess what would happen if they increased their wages even further. You guessed it the iPAd would be even more expensive.

Companies don't get the money to pay their workers from thin air, they have to earn it first.

If someone used your example we would have an even higher inflation than now.

For one, I already said my economics were flawed, I am not a professor, and yes, I know what profit is, companies were doing just fine making a profit and employing people at a decent wage when Clinton was president, anyone who says different knows crap about politics nay reality, the only reason so much is manufactured overseas is so companies can make their bottom line look better for stockholders, you think they really care about delivering a product to you at a reasonable price? NO. Just what kind of job do you hold? I am not a flaming liberal, but neither am I a narrow minded conservative. There are many companies that could move jobs back over here and make money, they just refuse to. We all know companies don't get capital from thin air, they get it from the taxpayers in the form of bailouts, slush funds, etc. What is your economic theory, pay everyone that works on a production line two cents an hour so only the elite and rich can afford what someone else had to sweat and possibly bleed to produce? And yes if a company is only producing in a third world country, they are not investing crap back into the business. You do realize corporate profits are at an all time high, yet there are few and far between jobs and wages have been stagnant for the last 15 years. In fact wages have gone down in some cases due to some factories laying off permanent employees, only to bring them back through a temp service at a reduced wage.

Deszaras1979 wrote:

Dead Metal wrote:

Deszaras1979 wrote:Apple says if the ipad were produced in America it would be unaffordable, this is BS, yeah it would cost more, but they would have to pay their workers a decent wage and that is not bad, let's look at the logistics of this, Apple moves manufacturing to America, hires x amount of people to produce the ipad, prices of the ipad goes up, however; if wages for the production of ipad are raised to coincide with increase in retail price, let's say the ipad doubles it's retail price to 1000.00 for a base model, the linemen are making 15 to 20 an hour working 40 to 50 hours a week, at 15 an hour times 40 hours a week times 4 weeks a month, thats $2400 a month, American workers could afford a base model ipad and where I live, still be able to pay there bills and have money left over, instead companies send jobs over seas, americans lose jobs, income, etc, chinese people are paid pennies on the dollar, inferior products are made and everyone loses out in the end. Do you think a chinese worker could afford a base model ipad now? Apple pockets all the money, the workers get shiite, and we get crappy products. I know my economics are flawed in the above example, so don't crucify me on it, but this profit before people mentality is why we are in a recession/depression depending on where you live.

Do you know what the word profit means?
It means the money that is left after all the investments have been earned back, including wages.
If the retail price goes up due to Apple having to pay higher wages, guess what would happen if they increased their wages even further. You guessed it the iPAd would be even more expensive.

Companies don't get the money to pay their workers from thin air, they have to earn it first.

If someone used your example we would have an even higher inflation than now.

For one, I already said my economics were flawed, I am not a professor, and yes, I know what profit is, companies were doing just fine making a profit and employing people at a decent wage when Clinton was president, anyone who says different knows crap about politics nay reality, the only reason so much is manufactured overseas is so companies can make their bottom line look better for stockholders, you think they really care about delivering a product to you at a reasonable price? NO. Just what kind of job do you hold? I am not a flaming liberal, but neither am I a narrow minded conservative. There are many companies that could move jobs back over here and make money, they just refuse to. We all know companies don't get capital from thin air, they get it from the taxpayers in the form of bailouts, slush funds, etc. What is your economic theory, pay everyone that works on a production line two cents an hour so only the elite and rich can afford what someone else had to sweat and possibly bleed to produce? And yes if a company is only producing in a third world country, they are not investing crap back into the business. You do realize corporate profits are at an all time high, yet there are few and far between jobs and wages have been stagnant for the last 15 years. In fact wages have gone down in some cases due to some factories laying off permanent employees, only to bring them back through a temp service at a reduced wage.

I'm a student and economics is a part of my subject.

I never said that companies weren't doing fine during Clinton, I also never said that they cared about delivering a quality product.

I simply told you have flawed your "example" was, also, if you knew it was flawed, then why the hell did you post it as an example in the first place?

They are companies and care about their bottom line, that and growing further, that is all companies care about. And the cheaper they can produce and sell their product, the more money they can make since more people can afford it and are more willing to buy it.

They are investing money in their businesses, they want to grow and reach more customers, in business terms increasing your capital and company size is investing in the business.

Also you need to stop blaming companies for everything, only large and important companies that employ a whole lot of people get bailouts so that they can keep as much of their work force as possible. It's our every fault for wanting everything cheaper than it should be and not thinking in long-term investments anymore. We want the best now, for cheap, and we want to replace it as soon as the never "better" version comes along.

We're currently living in an age of consumption, extreme consumption what used to be a long-term investment and was bought to last as long as possible, has become a cheap fashion accessory to be replaced once it's gone out of fashion.

Companies have tasted the "high-life", as in they earn more than ever due to the general public buying and buying and buying and buying, if everything went back to normal, we would take greater care of the money we spent and would keep our ipads longer, instead of getting rid of them once the new model comes out. Companies would earn less than now, which they just cannot accept anymore.

Dead Metal wrote:

Deszaras1979 wrote:

Dead Metal wrote:

Deszaras1979 wrote:Apple says if the ipad were produced in America it would be unaffordable, this is BS, yeah it would cost more, but they would have to pay their workers a decent wage and that is not bad, let's look at the logistics of this, Apple moves manufacturing to America, hires x amount of people to produce the ipad, prices of the ipad goes up, however; if wages for the production of ipad are raised to coincide with increase in retail price, let's say the ipad doubles it's retail price to 1000.00 for a base model, the linemen are making 15 to 20 an hour working 40 to 50 hours a week, at 15 an hour times 40 hours a week times 4 weeks a month, thats $2400 a month, American workers could afford a base model ipad and where I live, still be able to pay there bills and have money left over, instead companies send jobs over seas, americans lose jobs, income, etc, chinese people are paid pennies on the dollar, inferior products are made and everyone loses out in the end. Do you think a chinese worker could afford a base model ipad now? Apple pockets all the money, the workers get shiite, and we get crappy products. I know my economics are flawed in the above example, so don't crucify me on it, but this profit before people mentality is why we are in a recession/depression depending on where you live.

Do you know what the word profit means?
It means the money that is left after all the investments have been earned back, including wages.
If the retail price goes up due to Apple having to pay higher wages, guess what would happen if they increased their wages even further. You guessed it the iPAd would be even more expensive.

Companies don't get the money to pay their workers from thin air, they have to earn it first.

If someone used your example we would have an even higher inflation than now.

For one, I already said my economics were flawed, I am not a professor, and yes, I know what profit is, companies were doing just fine making a profit and employing people at a decent wage when Clinton was president, anyone who says different knows crap about politics nay reality, the only reason so much is manufactured overseas is so companies can make their bottom line look better for stockholders, you think they really care about delivering a product to you at a reasonable price? NO. Just what kind of job do you hold? I am not a flaming liberal, but neither am I a narrow minded conservative. There are many companies that could move jobs back over here and make money, they just refuse to. We all know companies don't get capital from thin air, they get it from the taxpayers in the form of bailouts, slush funds, etc. What is your economic theory, pay everyone that works on a production line two cents an hour so only the elite and rich can afford what someone else had to sweat and possibly bleed to produce? And yes if a company is only producing in a third world country, they are not investing crap back into the business. You do realize corporate profits are at an all time high, yet there are few and far between jobs and wages have been stagnant for the last 15 years. In fact wages have gone down in some cases due to some factories laying off permanent employees, only to bring them back through a temp service at a reduced wage.

I'm a student and economics is a part of my subject.

I never said that companies weren't doing fine during Clinton, I also never said that they cared about delivering a quality product.

I simply told you have flawed your "example" was, also, if you knew it was flawed, then why the hell did you post it as an example in the first place?

They are companies and care about their bottom line, that and growing further, that is all companies care about. And the cheaper they can produce and sell their product, the more money they can make since more people can afford it and are more willing to buy it.

They are investing money in their businesses, they want to grow and reach more customers, in business terms increasing your capital and company size is investing in the business.

Also you need to stop blaming companies for everything, only large and important companies that employ a whole lot of people get bailouts so that they can keep as much of their work force as possible. It's our every fault for wanting everything cheaper than it should be and not thinking in long-term investments anymore. We want the best now, for cheap, and we want to replace it as soon as the never "better" version comes along.

We're currently living in an age of consumption, extreme consumption what used to be a long-term investment and was bought to last as long as possible, has become a cheap fashion accessory to be replaced once it's gone out of fashion.

Companies have tasted the "high-life", as in they earn more than ever due to the general public buying and buying and buying and buying, if everything went back to normal, we would take greater care of the money we spent and would keep our ipads longer, instead of getting rid of them once the new model comes out. Companies would earn less than now, which they just cannot accept anymore.

The flaw in your example is that as companies hire people at reduced wages, outsource jobs overseas, the cost of living has gone up and disposable income among the poor and middle class is non-existent. Thus in the long run the poor and middle class in America will be living day to day while only the wealthy can afford anything not considered an essential to survive in the world today. Our economy is surviving on borrowed income, the govt. is in debt to other countries, a lot of the people are in debt to the credit card companies or banks, and there are no good jobs available, working at McDonald's doesn't cut it. I am glad you are a student, it is always good to further your education. However, it sounds to me like all your knowledge of the workforce comes from a book, I have been working since the mid nineties and things have never been as bad as they are now, I do not just blame the companies, our corrupt federal officials and the banks have to assume a large amount of responsibilty as well, btw, I have an AS in computer programming, I graduated with a 3.97 gpa in 2010, and am currently going for an AS in networking and servicing, I finished my first semester with straight A's. Jobs are few and far between in either field right now in my area, which is why I plan to move when I finish. You need to look beyond the books though, where I live used to be a mecca for furniture manufacturing but more and more plants are closing everyday, I know people who have worked at places for 15 years or more and are now having to struggle because their job was outsourced or they were replaced by temp workers who make way less than their full-time counterparts. I still stand by my opinion that profit over people will be the downfall of the whole damn economic system. There is no equilibrium right now. And it's not getting any better. I am very proud of my book knowledge, but the real world is a different place. p.s. I have not taken an economics class, though I did take an accounting class. Your example about earning back your investment is good if your talking about an upstart or a small business, but these companies that pay their CEOs 100 mil plus a year?

Deszaras1979 wrote:The flaw in your example is that as companies hire people at reduced wages, outsource jobs overseas, the cost of living has gone up and disposable income among the poor and middle class is non-existent. Thus in the long run the poor and middle class in America will be living day to day while only the wealthy can afford anything not considered an essential to survive in the world today.

That's not a flaw in my example, it's a flaw in the thinking of the economy and those working with it. Nothing can grow continuously and in unlimited numbers.
However, you must keep in mind that these companies are multinationals, and also sell their products in the companies they produce, believe it or not, but China is currently the biggest electronics market in the world.
Companies are not loyal to a single country, only to the one where they make the biggest amount of money.

Our economy is surviving on borrowed income, the govt. is in debt to other countries, a lot of the people are in debt to the credit card companies or banks, and there are no good jobs available, working at McDonald's doesn't cut it.

Every country is in debt to other countries and has stakes in them, it's part of the reason why the super powers don't rage war against each other, they're all dependent on each other. That's also why China won't go and start a war with the US, if they did, the US would pull it's stuff back and the Chinese economy would look like a dead horse that's been beaten to much.

I am glad you are a student, it is always good to further your education. However, it sounds to me like all your knowledge of the workforce comes from a book, I have been working since the mid nineties and things have never been as bad as they are now, I do not just blame the companies, our corrupt federal officials and the banks have to assume a large amount of responsibilty as well, btw, I have an AS in computer programming, I graduated with a 3.97 gpa in 2010, and am currently going for an AS in networking and servicing, I finished my first semester with straight A's. Jobs are few and far between in either field right now in my area, which is why I plan to move when I finish. You need to look beyond the books though, where I live used to be a mecca for furniture manufacturing but more and more plants are closing everyday, I know people who have worked at places for 15 years or more and are now having to struggle because their job was outsourced or they were replaced by temp workers who make way less than their full-time counterparts. I still stand by my opinion that profit over people will be the downfall of the whole damn economic system. There is no equilibrium right now.

My dad works at a company that's been in the process of moving production away from Germany to east Europe for the past few years due to the labour being cheaper there, believe me I know what goes down in the "real world". He even had to work under 5 different bosses for a time, one of them only stayed for about a month before being fired and replaced again.
Look at Siemens, their company image is that of a "family company", they even offered one of my former class mates a high paying job training due to his dad being a bit of a big deal in the company, he's currently with his girlfriend in a 3000 dollar hotel room in Dubai.

Part of the reason I'm still studying is due to my original field no-longer being relevant, now I'm studying to be a translator and luckily that's one of the few jobs that are still in high demand over here, due to there being less translators than stuff to translate.

And it's not getting any better. I am very proud of my book knowledge, but the real world is a different place. p.s. I have not taken an economics class, though I did take an accounting class. Your example about earning back your investment is good if your talking about an upstart or a small business, but these companies that pay their CEOs 100 mil plus a year?

Yes for them it's still a good model. A CEO who earns that much, earns that much for a reason.
He doesn't get to decide how much he earns, unless he's just that good. A CEO has the responsibility to
keep the company growing
keep the stockholders happy
increase the company's value
and secure the jobs for the work force
If he f**ks up, everyone looses their jobs and investments.
I once had to translate an interview with Maurice Lévy the current CEO of the Publicis Groupe, which thought me a lot about the reasons behind large pay checks.

And all this will stay as is, unless the Occupy Wall Street movement is heard and gets their way. Which I hope it will.

Dead Metal wrote:And all this will stay as is, unless the Occupy Wall Street movement is heard and gets their way. Which I hope it will.

The "Occupy" movement is a bunch of garbage. A bunch of self righious people who think the world is owed to them. Its steady loosing steam as well as public support and I for one, and thankfull.

5150 Cruiser wrote:

Dead Metal wrote:And all this will stay as is, unless the Occupy Wall Street movement is heard and gets their way. Which I hope it will.

The "Occupy" movement is a bunch of garbage. A bunch of self righious people who think the world is owed to them. Its steady loosing steam as well as public support and I for one, and thankfull.

Why, what's wrong with what they say?

Dead Metal wrote:

5150 Cruiser wrote:

Dead Metal wrote:And all this will stay as is, unless the Occupy Wall Street movement is heard and gets their way. Which I hope it will.

The "Occupy" movement is a bunch of garbage. A bunch of self righious people who think the world is owed to them. Its steady loosing steam as well as public support and I for one, and thankfull.

Why, what's wrong with what they say?

Hmm. The Occupy issue is a mixed bag for me. On the one hand, what they're saying and fighting for is right. (At least in my mind.) However, their actions have done nothing but cost money and time and injury.

There are better ways to rage against the machine, this is not one of them.

Dead Metal wrote:

5150 Cruiser wrote:

Dead Metal wrote:And all this will stay as is, unless the Occupy Wall Street movement is heard and gets their way. Which I hope it will.

The "Occupy" movement is a bunch of garbage. A bunch of self righious people who think the world is owed to them. Its steady loosing steam as well as public support and I for one, and thankfull.

Why, what's wrong with what they say?

They think there owed everything. Becaude others are successfull, and those that went to college can't find jobs that pay $100K a year right out of school and are pissed that they have to prove themselves and start by working at the bottom.. They think that there loans should be forgived. This is crap.

Autobot032 wrote:Hmm. The Occupy issue is a mixed bag for me. On the one hand, what they're saying and fighting for is right. (At least in my mind.) However, their actions have done nothing but cost money and time and injury.

There are better ways to rage against the machine, this is not one of them.

Exactly.

I understand what the orignal point of the Occupy movment was, but at this point, based on interviews and signs that these people have up while protesting, maybe 10% of them actually believe in their cause. The rest really have no clue whats going on. They have no demands what so ever. They have no organization what so ever. They have cost millions in damages that that tax payers (they ones the claim they represent) will have to pay. Their protesting has cause many small buisness to lay off employee's because they there presence has scared away customers. NOt to meantion the trash, using public parks as toliets, rioting and breaking the law. (they think they are above the law and don't have to do what police tell them too) Ya, they really stand for something don't they?...

To clarify without political debate...
The occupy movement was initially about bringing to light the homelessness caused by foreclosures of properties held by banks connected to wall street exchange firms. These toxic loans were wagered and traded against other commodities, were the cause of the need for bailouts, hence the last resort effort to bring to light (in the media, to the public) the juxtaposition of people who risked and lost yet still got paid and bailed out by the government to the people who really have no other course of action due to the recent decline of jobs being shipped to cheaper labor (Indian customer support call centers, Asian sweat shops, et al). Everything is connected internationally. I would go on, but this is something I've been following passionately, hence would not be in the best interest of the thread.

Just one other thing... to the person that said superpowers no longer want to war with each other; please take a deep breath, get something warm to drink, and reconsider that position with just a bit more analytic regard.

Dead Metal wrote:

5150 Cruiser wrote:

Dead Metal wrote:And all this will stay as is, unless the Occupy Wall Street movement is heard and gets their way. Which I hope it will.

The "Occupy" movement is a bunch of garbage. A bunch of self righious people who think the world is owed to them. Its steady loosing steam as well as public support and I for one, and thankfull.

Why, what's wrong with what they say?

I appreciate the debate, I could go on on about this, in the end I gave some of your positions some thought and do find validity in some of what you say, but if stuff goes down between the US and China, it will already be too late, don't think for a minute that we do not have enemies who are waiting for the right moment to hit, China has factories already up and running we have a whole lot of empty buildings. We can't just pull our stuff back overnight. Iran just announced they have produced their first nuclear rod, and they test fired a missile that can evade satellite detection.
Glad to see you sympathize with the occupy movement. I feel they have been unjustly demonized in certain news circles. We need to get our priorities back in order here in the US. That goes for any country really though. Yeah, the whole system right now is flawed, not just economically, but politically as well, what we have right now is big business and world leaders who have sold out there own people for power and money.

Court Jester wrote:To clarify without political debate...
The occupy movement was initially about bringing to light the homelessness caused by foreclosures of properties held by banks connected to wall street exchange firms. These toxic loans were wagered and traded against other commodities, were the cause of the need for bailouts, hence the last resort effort to bring to light (in the media, to the public) the juxtaposition of people who risked and lost yet still got paid and bailed out by the government to the people who really have no other course of action due to the recent decline of jobs being shipped to cheaper labor (Indian customer support call centers, Asian sweat shops, et al). Everything is connected internationally. I would go on, but this is something I've been following passionately, hence would not be in the best interest of the thread.

Just one other thing... to the person that said superpowers no longer want to war with each other; please take a deep breath, get something warm to drink, and reconsider that position with just a bit more analytic regard.

^THIS.

After reading this article at the beginning of this thread, I went and looked at all four of the Takara Masterpiece Transformers that I own.

And they were all made in China. And that made me sad. I'd hate to think of the toys that I have being made in horrid conditions. I'd rather know that they were made by employees that were well treated and given good wages. I hope that is the case, but I'm not so sure now.



I think the major problem is that we want Cadillac service at rock bottom prices. And if a comapany doesn't jump and do what the customer wants, the customer moves elsewhere. So to keep up with these demands, the company moves it's manufacturing overseas to a plant that it can pay workers lower wages so it can sell a lower priced product.

The thing is, while Hasbro is certainly culpable of what it is charged with, so are we who buy from them. Unless we are willing to put up with paying more for a product that is made in the US, we are going to keep seeing the same things over and over and over. Crappy (and often poisonous)products made at near slave-labor conditions.


I'm willing to put up with a price increase if it comes from that product being made in the US. It means that someone is being paid a living wage, can eat well and doesn't have so little money he is forced to live in a dump. Yes, it would hurt my wallet a little, but dammit it's worth it.

Zombie Starscream wrote: After reading this article at the beginning of this thread, I went and looked at all four of the Takara Masterpiece Transformers that I own.

And they were all made in China. And that made me sad. I'd hate to think of the toys that I have being made in horrid conditions. I'd rather know that they were made by employees that were well treated and given good wages. I hope that is the case, but I'm not so sure now.

95% of the products you own from toys to the clothes that are on your back are made in china. All with simular labar that you see in the TF factories.

Zombie Starscream wrote:I'm willing to put up with a price increase if it comes from that product being made in the US. It means that someone is being paid a living wage, can eat well and doesn't have so little money he is forced to live in a dump. Yes, it would hurt my wallet a little, but dammit it's worth it.

Really? Do you feel this way for everything you own, or just your TF's? Are you will to pay more for nearly evrything you own or just your TF toys you love so dearly?

Yes, iut pains many that the products you love are made in factories that do not live up to North America's standards, but like you said, the consumer is the driving force. If you feel that way with one product, then you must feel that way with everything. From your TF's, to your Ipad.

Looks like Hasbro's not the only one under fire. Take a look at this story. And notice how similar Microsoft's response is to Hasbro's.

http://kotaku.com/5875359/xbox-factory-suicide-threats-were-over-regular-production-adjustments-says-microsoft

Thing is how many people say, "Are you willing to pay more for your stuff?"
This is basically like saying is your stuff worth more to you than another human being's dignity, to this I say wtf? I heard in some factories there are like 8 people to a small dorm and in many cases they are not even allowed to communicate with each other. No tv, no nothin. Just work, day in and day out. These people slave and don't get sh@@ while all some(sheltered upper class types) people care about is their precious "stuff". I'm not tryin to incite anyone but comeon. If an ipad or transformer is worth more to you than another person's suffering and dignity then really wtf? We abolished slavery in the US but we still tolerate it in other countries, wtf?

This thread reminded me of that Dave Chappell clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isqZCdDp ... ata_player

aeleven wrote:This thread reminded me of that Dave Chappell clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isqZCdDp ... ata_player

Dat is some ballin' @$$ sh@@ right there. Love the end of the clip. I'll be laffin bout that for days.

Deszaras1979 wrote:Thing is how many people say, "Are you willing to pay more for your stuff?"
This is basically like saying is your stuff worth more to you than another human being's dignity, to this I say wtf? I heard in some factories there are like 8 people to a small dorm and in many cases they are not even allowed to communicate with each other. No tv, no nothin. Just work, day in and day out. These people slave and don't get sh@@ while all some(sheltered upper class types) people care about is their precious "stuff". I'm not tryin to incite anyone but comeon. If an ipad or transformer is worth more to you than another person's suffering and dignity then really wtf? We abolished slavery in the US but we still tolerate it in other countries, wtf?

NO, its an honest question. I understand your not nessasarly singling me out, but I asked the question because many do put these toys that they have devoted so much time too above other things. But the thing is if you feel this way then it shouldn't matter if its a transformer or tooth brush. NO i don't like the fact that products we buy could possibly be made people being paid pennies an hour. (or day).But you know what? I didn't ask companies to pay their employess pennies so i can afford to buy the things i like.
And if there are companies that are really stuffing familes and forcing them to work for pennies 24/7, then yes, those factories should be shut down.

5150 Cruiser wrote:

Deszaras1979 wrote:Thing is how many people say, "Are you willing to pay more for your stuff?"
This is basically like saying is your stuff worth more to you than another human being's dignity, to this I say wtf? I heard in some factories there are like 8 people to a small dorm and in many cases they are not even allowed to communicate with each other. No tv, no nothin. Just work, day in and day out. These people slave and don't get sh@@ while all some(sheltered upper class types) people care about is their precious "stuff". I'm not tryin to incite anyone but comeon. If an ipad or transformer is worth more to you than another person's suffering and dignity then really wtf? We abolished slavery in the US but we still tolerate it in other countries, wtf?

NO, its an honest question. I understand your not nessasarly singling me out, but I asked the question because many do put these toys that they have devoted so much time too above other things. But the thing is if you feel this way then it shouldn't matter if its a transformer or tooth brush. NO i don't like the fact that products we buy could possibly be made people being paid pennies an hour. (or day).But you know what? I didn't ask companies to pay their employess pennies so i can afford to buy the things i like.
And if there are companies that are really stuffing familes and forcing them to work for pennies 24/7, then yes, those factories should be shut down.

No I really wasn't talking about you in particular, but what you say about you didn't ask for it, that is what i'm sayin, alot of people who make the are you willing to pay more argument is that it is the consumer demand for lower prices that forces companies to move their business offshore, it is not the consumer or govt regulation or high taxes. Tax rates during the Bush administration were lower than when Clinton was presdident, regulations were severely loosened, yet companies have been offshoring jobs with wreckless abandon since 2002. What happened was Bush got rid of a lot of barriers like tariffs on imported goods from China, allowing many big businesses to move over seas so that they could employ workers for little of nothing. Also, he got money from China to pay for his war. All it boils down to is greed on the part of big corporations, the govt, and wall street. I don't want to be redundant so I'll leave it at that. I'm not trying to argue with anyone, I'm just expressing my thoughts on the subject.
You should look up on youtube about the iphone workers committing suicide, and maybe it's not the most serious program but the daily show just did an excellent(and very funny) expose on sweatshops. For the record, I do not own an ipad or iphone. It's not like we can go into China and make them do right by their people, but big business shouldn't be so anxious to make a profit that they exploit the communist regime's hold on their people either. It's not like Reagan would've let our jobs go to the old USSR. This is not just a problem in the US though. Big businesses in other countries are outsourcing the production of products to China that could be made in their own country. Globalization and intertwining economies has f***ed a lot of countries up(just look at the EU mess).God I could go on and on but this is just beating a dead horse to death, burying it, digging it up, and beating it again, then repeating it infinity more times. Dave Chappelle FTW.

We did it! We changed the world for the better... oh wait. It totally blew over. Well done, fandom.

While this news is related to Apple rather than Hasbro, now that Foxconn has been pressured to do something to address the conditions for workers, the various other slavedriving companies in China may have some incentive to follow suit.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/apple-foxconn-vow-wide-revamp-200107606.html